The End
 

Bush's massive defeat of Kerry is a mandate for his second term.

The Republicans will walk their policies through Congress. Lip-serivce to unity will be provided to feed the necessary belief system of the Republican base (that Republicans are trying really truly hard to do the right thing!) and to cloud the dynamics of debate between the two parties.

The Democrats will have no option but to filibuster on occasion, reach for the scraps that are thrown away and swallow the Republican agenda. They will complain about it - but it will be drowned out by the return accusations that it is actually the Democrats that make unity impossible.

The Democrats will field Hillary Clinton in 2008. She will assuredly lose.

The Democrats are in a position that they cannot field a candidate who has a chance of defeating the Republicans. The reason for this is the entirely effective momentum of the morals-driven Republican base.

The right has been pulling the center closer and closer to them for decades. This is evident because it is considered common knowledge that Kerry is very liberal. In comparison to what? The Republicans? Of course he is. But in comparison to history, he is centric.

The morals-driven populace, those who believe it is their right to limit other people's rights, have demonstrated that they are more vocal when it comes to controlling this country.

The Democrats will split into 2 factions: the centrist faction, led by someone like John Kerry and the liberal faction, led by someone like Nader (without the narcissism) or Michael Moore (without the child-like glee). This will pull some of the more centric Republicans away from the current arch-conservative agenda of that party, but not enough to balance the scales of power.

This is now a God-fearing country. It will not shake the inherent oppression of that belief system for a long, long time - if it is even able.

What exactly do you mean by the phrase "God-fearing country"? And don't wheel out that old BS conservative cliche that this is a country founded by Christians. Benjamin Franklin wasn't a Christian. Thomas Paine wasn't a Christian. Thomas Jefferson wasn't a Christian, and wrote in the 1797 Treaty of Tripoli that the USA "is in no way founded on Christian principles". And even those founding fathers who WERE Christian agreed with the others that the very first Amendement to the Constitution should specify that there would be freedom of religion, and no state religion. You remember the Constitution, don't you? It's that crumbly, yellowed document that George W. Bush is currently wiping his ass with.

A massive defeat? Hardly. Get real, this wasn't Reagan/Mondale, or even Clinton/Dole.

I won't let it bother me too much. If someone really thinks they can tell me how I live my own live and try to shove their morals down my throat, they'll get a rude awakening.

As long as the effects of this don't touch my personal life, I'll be fine. Otherwise, I'll gladly break and challenge any law I feel is ridiculous.

For example... if they find a way to overturn abortions and I'm in a situation where that would be a choice to make, the baby will get aborted.

Basically, I'll make sure that anything passed under this administration (again, if it interferes with my personal life) doesn't affect me.

Nicely put.

But prepare for the inevitable attacks and accusations that will follow. :)

Mr Mephisto

That's impossible. If you break a law passed by this Administration, and you are caught and convicted, then it will self-evidently affect you.

Of course, feel free to engage in civil disobedience. It only took the Blacks about 50 years... :)


Mr Mephisto

Way to overreact there.

Stompy, you sound like a real, 100% American to me. If only they could all share your sound thinking.

God-fearing country is in reference to the massive number of morals-driven voters in this country. Whether they or similar make up a large percentage of the country of not is irrelevent - it is they who drive the Republican agenda, for without them the Republicans would be a shell of what they are.

It was a massive defeat, a mandate - because Cheney and others in Congress stated that it was. This means the reality that we will deal with is one where the government behaves as if it were a massive defeat. And I would expect them to do nothing less - and their bulk of their supporters would require them to do nothing less. But they will offer lip-service to claim a desire to seek unity. A unity between liberals and conservatives where the liberals are expected to accept the swing of the country towards the right.

This has nothing to do with the religion of the founders.

As I have been living my life for years, both here and in other countries with much different rules.

The only problem with this apathy to society is that there are millions of people who do not have the resources, education, knowledge, experience or understanding necessary to safely break the rules that unjustly bind them.

I voted for Bush, and I haven't believed in god since I was 8 years old.

I agree with you up until the last line. This has EVERYTHING to do with the founders. Bush and the Republicans have systematicly undermined the foundation that this country was built on. It was explicit in nearly everything that the founding fathers wrote that there would be a separation of church and state, because they feared what happened in Europe (inquisitions, persecution etc.) occuring here.

I have lived, sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth: that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice is it probable that an empire can rise without his aid? We have been assured, sir, in the Sacred Writings, that "except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it." I firmly believe this...

1787 Constitutional Convention, Ben Franklin

God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God?... Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just: that his justice cannot sleep forever.

Thomas Jefferson

You don't have to. Because the base of the candidate you voted for does. So you, and I, and all of us, are subject to their greater influence.

This is a God fearing country because the winning candidate requires the support of those who fear God. They control the country with that power. And there is nothing the Democrats or the real liberals can do about it now.

Maybe in 16 years - but that's just too far off to even contemplate.

Yeah, I just have a real problem when people try to shove their morals down my throat. Not something that sits well with me :) I sure hope others would do the same! You never know these days.

I wouldn't say 100% American, I'm just someone who doesn't tolerate others trying to control me outside of what's necessary and within reason.

Ya really...all that nonsense about murder, stealing, rape, incest...what a complete and idiotic moral waste of time. Those fucking fundies and all their oppresive rules. Can you believe that we have to exist under these clearly human right diminishing neocon regimes and their rediculous limitations :rolleyes: ?

Mojo, I don't know what your point was bringing up those two quotes. I can't tell if you're trying to say Franklin and Jefferson were Christian or what. Let me just point out that Franklin was most definitally not a Christian- he was a deist. Yes he believed in a god, and he believed that "the best praise to god is to do good works unto other men" (not a perfect quote, but that's the idea). Lots of people like to take religious quotes of him out of context to try and portray him as some sort of super religious advocate when in reality, he was no such thing. In Richard's Almanac he wrote something to the effect of "A lot of religion is worse than none at all". Yes he was no atheist, but no he was no diehard Christian. Also people seem to forget that he would often flavor his speeches with religion when he was speaking to a group full of Christians because he was one of the greatest diplomats of all time, and he knew how to work a crowd.

As for Jefferson, he too was certainly not a Christian, but a deist. In fact he took the Bible, and edited out all the 'superstitious, magical, etc' parts to see what could be left over from a rational point of view. He had a short pamphlet of Jesus' life ending with him being buried in his tomb. I am just saying this to illustrate that he was no Christian. A deist? Of course.

I'm not trying to jump down your throat in case you were just trying to prove that they did believe in some sort of deity, but it gets pretty annoying when people throw up quotes from the founding fathers without realizing their context or having done any research on the characters themselves.

ENOUGH
 

The Democrats will try to send Hillary through in 2008. They just don't get it. The only thing that will save the Democrats is if Republicans get too caught up in the moralality thing and the Christian Coalition gets too much influence on the party.

i think those quotes (of the type mojo provided) can be taken out of context both ways. on one hand, we have historically grounded theories about how our founding father weren't evangelical Christians. i believe this is true as well. on the other, we do have repeated and eloquently stated positions by nearly every single founding father professing a certain brand of faith and trust in the existence and goodness of God. i think both sides (evangelicals and agnostic/atheists) would do well to realize that the founding fathers will not fit into the postmodern box they're often asked to climb into.

The best thing that could happen to the US would be a female or black president, or both.
The Reps should overcome the past and their conservative attitudes. Times are changing, gay marriage, abortion, mulit-culturalism will just become accepted and a part of normal-day live. Changing his mind has nothing to do with flip-flopping, but with adapting to new situations and looking forward.
Maybe or maybe not the US were founded on Christianism, those times are over.

I was merely trying to point out from a historical perspective, that "God" has a place in this country.

I'm gonna say this only one last time before I just start ignoring these types of people: quit posting junk like this. I'm sick of dealing with people who take something and turn it into something it's not. Your reponses are ignorant, they prove nothing except that you can't read.

I always always always have to point out my posts to these people when you should be old enough to read them for yourselves. Since you are incapable of comprehending my posts, or anything in parenthesis, let me point it out to you (I've had to do this several times in the past two days to many different people):

Now, can you read? What does that mean to you? Where do you get this wild idea that when I speak of something affecting my personal life, you ramble off some crap about murder, stealing, rape, and incest? Seriously, why post it? You KNOW it's completely irrelevant and you know damn well that's not what I'm talking about, so why do it? FYI - it doesn't prove any point you think you're trying to make.

Am I the only one sick of mindless responses like this? I don't know what's going through your mind, but chances are, your posts beyond this won't improve much.

Stompy
It might not be the deepest comment ever but it does have truth. I think it was asking what specific part of America do you dislike.

I am seriously worried about the influence of the bible belt on this countries legislative stances will be in the next 4 years. The fact that 11 states banned gay marriage and limited gay civil unions yesterday tells me that the country is dangerously swinging to the extreme right. I never thought that in the 21st century we would be voting to take away civil rights in this country.

no, you aren't.

you could try what I've been doing: return the favor. it's a bit cathartic, I must admit.

but not as a state religion
"separation of Church and State" is an importand principle.

History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government

Jefferson in a letter to Alexander von Humboldt (Dec. 6, 1813)

Jefferson wrote in the text of the 1797 Treaty of Tripoli that this country "is in no way founded upon the Christian religion".

meepa, you are 100% correct, nor were Jefferson and Franklin the only deists among the founding fathers.

mojo, if there is a God, of course he/she/they have a place in this country - and everywhere else, naturally. And I firmly believe, as the Christian and non-Christian founding fathers all agreed, that the government has absolutely no place whatsoever in dictating, guiding, favoring, suggesting, or ever mentioning at all, just how each citizen of this country chooses to believe, worship, profess and guide his or her spiritual life, so long as it does not infringe upon the rights of others.

I fully support the Constitution, including the entire Bill of Rights, which means I'm probably on several watchlists.

irateplatypus, regarding your post, I think maybe you should consider the meaning of the word "nearly", and the fact that there are many, many faiths that are not Christian ones.

Good lord. The posting I quoted included none of the disclaimers your now offering (and on further reflection had offered previously), and your only defense is name calling and child like whining.

You've got me on the ropes now :rolleyes: !

I'll refrain from challenging your positions further. You're seemingly unable to handle sarcasm or opposition without a tantrum.

-bear

FWIW, I am on your side with the victimless crime angle, but disagree that the population/legislator doesn't have a right to enact victimless crime legislation. Capable and permitted doesn't necc ensure reasonable (gay marriage ban). Similarly reasonable doesn't necc mean capable or permitted (gun control).

Edited as I am guilty of being a pot calling a kettle black

Boy, you certainly rose above name calling there. Way to go.

Your absolutely right. I stand corrected and it is being edited now.

-bear

fill me in please on what possible difference the religious persuasions of the "founders" can possible make to anyone who is not a historian of colonial-period america in 2004?

if these folk had been interested in imprinting their personal belief system on the institutional design they set up, they would not have opted for things like a precedent-based legal system, which is the basis for such adaptability (and continued relevance) as the american legal system has.

i suspect the relevance of this matter is of a piece with the "original intent" mode of trying to interpret the constitution--a mode that is wholly absurd conceptually, practically, etc. but outside of that, i cannot see why the question of what and how jefferson of anyone else understood the question of religion is interesting or important.


also, a side note--i think it was already stated above--i do not know how the actual numbers in the election can be understood by anyone as a "massive defeat" in any way. maybe someone could fill me in on how 3% can be understood as "massive"...

Good Timing
 

Originally Posted by j8ear
AAAAAHHHH how cute, another disgruntled, disallusioned, clueless angry young liberal.

got in the edit before I finished counting to ten......

WOW i am so happy right now, i agree with you, it is extremely rare and just wanted to say it, i am not being sarcastic in anyway. i just have to say very well said :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :D :D :D