Final Thought Before Election Day - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Halx · 11-01-2004, 11:48 AM

This message is to anyone who is voting for one of the two major parties. I don't care who you're voting for, I just care that you're voting for one of them. I don't believe it is possible to make an informed decision about either of your choices anymore because it has become clear that neither side sticks to the truth or their own word. It's absolutely despicable to see that politics has degenerated into a cutthroat deception race. And no, it wasn't always that way. There was a good example of such on Bill Maher's show this week from Richard Belzer.

Don't even try to claim for a second that your candidate has been faithful to you. We all know they haven't. Everything has become convoluted and the message no longer counts. What counts is that you vote for them at whatever cost of truth, morality and dignity. Are you give in and be a puppet? Or are you going to excercise your right as a free-thinking individual and vote for a candidate who leaves it up to you, the intelligent, informed voter?

Make a stand at the voting booth. Do not give up your dignity and self-respect to appease the majority. Our ability to step beyond the herd is what separates humans from animals.

Paq · 11-01-2004, 11:55 AM

HERE HERE!!!

THREE CHEERS FOR HAL!!!!!!!

Hal for president!!

irateplatypus · 11-01-2004, 12:15 PM

sorry halx, i just don't agree with you. President Bush isn't all that i want him to be. he isn't really a conservative and his party isn't the last bastion of fiscal restraint as they would have you believe. however, when you separate the political machine from the man... i firmly believe in the President's sincerity, dignity, and deep moral convictions.

i don't vote for the fundraising machine, i don't for the their side's lawyers, i don't vote for the attack ads... i vote for the candidate. you may argue that George W. Bush is misguided... but i firmly believe that he is a man of honor who believes with passion that he is doing what is right for his fellow man. i will proudly cast my vote for him tomorrow.

aliali · 11-01-2004, 12:18 PM

So, is there no difference between the two major candidates? If there is, it would make sense for anyone for whom those differences are important to try to defeat the side they disagree with. Voting for Nader or anyone else doesn't help you beat Bush or Kerry. That's reality.

It there is no difference b/t the two major parties, then there are a lot of reasonably intelligent people on this board who have no idea what is going on since they put so much effort into arguing for one side or the other.

What in the wide world of sports would make anyone think that any third party would stand for truth, morality and dignity if it had any real chance at winning?

I don't know what separates us from the animals, but I know it isn't related to how anyone reading this votes tomorrow. Polls suggest that around two-thirds of the military vote will probably go for Bush. I'm not ready to declare their loss of dignity and self-respect for that decision anymore than I would suggest the same for the one-third that will vote for Kerry. For that 1/2 of once percent that will choose someone else, good for them, but I'm sorry, that one decision doesn't not make them better, smarter, or awash in dignity and self-respect.

If I want to be excercise my right as a free-thinking individual and vote for a candidate who leaves it up to me, the intelligent, informed voter, where would I turn?

There are lots of good reasons to vote a third party--protest, really believe it is the best vote, can't decide between the major parties--but the fact that it makes you special and smart isn't one of them.

And, and I know this all sounds pretty negative, I wouldn't put much stock in having Belzer and/or Maher as professors of political history.

alto92 · 11-01-2004, 12:22 PM

fair enough, platypus. i don't think george bush is that bad of a guy. the problem is you CANT separate the man from the political machine because he buys into it - fully. and when he and his party puts people into positions of power who are insincere, undignified, and morally bankrupt, halx's assertion becomes soberingly correct, and bush's sincerity, dignity, and deep moral convictions are lost.

daswig · 11-01-2004, 12:28 PM

My vote is going where it's going not because I support the candidate I'm voting for, but because I feel that the other candidate is beyond dispicable. As the saying goes: "I wouldn't piss on his head if his hair was on fire." Not that I wish his hair was on fire; I don't. I just hope he goes away and leaves us in peace or war or whatever.

daswig · 11-01-2004, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alto92

and when he and his party puts people into positions of power who are insincere, undignified, and morally bankrupt, halx's assertion becomes soberingly correct, and bush's sincerity, dignity, and deep moral convictions are lost.

And Kerry is any better? He's being run by Clinton's people, who ran one of the most corrupt presidencies in recent memory. (Never did I think I'd see a President that made NIXON look like a man of principle!!!) On top of that, he has a long history (best case scenario...worst case scenario, he's a long string of expletives self-deleted traitor) of appeasing our enemies to the detriment of our allies, and demuring to the UN, a corrupt organization through and through which most definitely does NOT have America's best interests at heart.

This is a case of the lesser of two evils.

aliali · 11-01-2004, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by irateplatypus

sorry halx, i just don't agree with you. President Bush isn't all that i want him to be. he isn't really a conservative and his party isn't the last bastion of fiscal restraint as they would have you believe. however, when you separate the political machine from the man... i firmly believe in the President's sincerity, dignity, and deep moral convictions.

i don't vote for the fundraising machine, i don't for the their side's lawyers, i don't vote for the attack ads... i vote for the candidate. you may argue that George W. Bush is misguided... but i firmly believe that he is a man of honor who believes with passion that he is doing what is right for his fellow man. i will proudly cast my vote for him tomorrow.

I don't totally agree with you on your defense of W, but your defense of your vote is refreshing. I'm happy you're proud to vote for your guy tomorrow. If your vote for Bush doesn't separate you from the animals or causes you your self-respect, that's too bad. But I say, stick with it.

I hope Kerry gets the same defense from someone in this thread.

Halx · 11-01-2004, 01:24 PM

Even if you're not voting FOR someone, but voting AGAINST, you're still not going with your convictions. If you even believe that your candidate is the strong, resolute and inpired one, you're only buying into the smoke screen of integrity that these people put up to win your vote so they may have the power to run their corporate schemes. No vote for a major party is dignified.

daswig · 11-01-2004, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Halx

Even if you're not voting FOR someone, but voting AGAINST, you're still not going with your convictions. If you even believe that your candidate is the strong, resolute and inpired one, you're only buying into the smoke screen of integrity that these people put up to win your vote so they may have the power to run their corporate schemes. No vote for a major party is dignified.

Well, I disagree. Elections for me are not a matter of getting the best person into office, but rather a matter of keeping the worst person out. BTW, I thought you were supporting Kerry? Did that change?

ShaniFaye · 11-01-2004, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by irateplatypus

sorry halx, i just don't agree with you. President Bush isn't all that i want him to be. he isn't really a conservative and his party isn't the last bastion of fiscal restraint as they would have you believe. however, when you separate the political machine from the man... i firmly believe in the President's sincerity, dignity, and deep moral convictions.

i don't vote for the fundraising machine, i don't for the their side's lawyers, i don't vote for the attack ads... i vote for the candidate. you may argue that George W. Bush is misguided... but i firmly believe that he is a man of honor who believes with passion that he is doing what is right for his fellow man. i will proudly cast my vote for him tomorrow.

very well put....much better than I can do and I agree 100%...well except for voting tomorrow because I proudly cast my vote a week ago

aliali · 11-01-2004, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Halx

Even if you're not voting FOR someone, but voting AGAINST, you're still not going with your convictions. If you even believe that your candidate is the strong, resolute and inpired one, you're only buying into the smoke screen of integrity that these people put up to win your vote so they may have the power to run their corporate schemes. No vote for a major party is dignified.

What lever must I pull for dignity and self-respect? A vote W or Kerry strips them away. What do I do?

Halx · 11-01-2004, 01:30 PM

No, I stated on my site that I am voting Libertarian.

Halx · 11-01-2004, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aliali

What lever must I pull for dignity and self-respect? A vote W or Kerry strips them away. What do I do?

Third party or Write-in.

Flyguy · 11-01-2004, 01:33 PM

So really Halx, what's the alternative? I totally see where you're coming from and I agree with you but, what else can be done? Third parties don't stand a chance in hell anytime soon until the people wake up and stop allowing the two major parties to keep them out of the debates, keep them off ballots, keep them out of the general mainstream, etc.

Fact is, one of the two major parties will win either tomorrow of after all the legal dust settles. So for this election, I have to go with the dems because they're closest to my beliefs and what's important to me. I'd love to dump their ass in a second for another party, but we all saw where making a statement at the voting booth 4 years ago got us.

bling · 11-01-2004, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Halx

Even if you're not voting FOR someone, but voting AGAINST, you're still not going with your convictions.

This is not really accurate. If your convictions are more strongly against a candidate then they are for any other candidate, then a vote against a candidate is in line with your convictions.

My convictions:
- There is not one single option that is exactly who I want as President.
- I absolutely do not want Bush to be President.

I have two options: do not vote at all or target my vote to cause the most damage to Bush. If the decision is to vote, the vote which most accurately reflects my convictions is clear.

aliali · 11-01-2004, 01:44 PM

O.K. Libertarian. I could win back my dignity and self-respect by simply voting for a candidate who cannot win and if he did would cut 100 billion annually from the military budget, eliminate all welfare programs (food stamps, child care, low income housing, after school programs, job-training programs), and drastically lower the taxes of the richest americans. No, there will be no help for the corporations in that platform.

Third Party. Any of them?

Write in? I just turned 35. Guess you could vote for me.

Is it a particular way a person has to vote, or is it just for someone that can't win?

daswig · 11-01-2004, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Halx

No, I stated on my site that I am voting Libertarian.

I did that before. Then I went through the rest of the 1990's. Never again.

aliali · 11-01-2004, 01:48 PM

Come on. Someone here is for Kerry and proud of it. Let's hear it.

Halx · 11-01-2004, 01:51 PM

You can get up on me all you want about how voting for a third party wont amount to anything, but that's the price you pay for staying true to yourself... or as true to yourself as the voting structure will let you be. To me, it's as simple as sacrifice. You're sacrificing your vote. To the materialistic world, it's an act made in vain, but to those around you who understand conviction, truth and piece of mind, it is a hell of a lot more than a wasted vote.

Not to mention, the more votes a third party gets, the more funding they receive from various sources.

Averett · 11-01-2004, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Halx

Even if you're not voting FOR someone, but voting AGAINST, you're still not going with your convictions. If you even believe that your candidate is the strong, resolute and inpired one, you're only buying into the smoke screen of integrity that these people put up to win your vote so they may have the power to run their corporate schemes. No vote for a major party is dignified.

I don't agree at all. So any vote for Kerry or Bush is not dignified? I firmly believe in Kerry, and that is who I'm voting for. I'm not voting for not-Bush. I'm not voting for a third party candidate just because it's cool these days. I'm voting for Kerry. I'm using my right to vote and placing it on Kerry because I believe that my cadidate is the right choice for me, and I'll be staying true to myself in doing so.

It's as simple as that.

daswig · 11-01-2004, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Halx

You can get up on me all you want

Dude, that is SO not where I'm coming from. You vote however you feel best voting, and I'll do the same. I'm just saying, I've been down that road before, and afterwards, I thought it sucked from my perspective. Would it have sucked equally if I had chosen another path? That's unanswerable.

In 12 years, you may look back on this election differently than I look back on the '92 election. I hope you do, since the '92 election and it's aftermath really sucked from my perspective.

Good luck, God Bless, and don't worry about the small stuff.

ShaniFaye · 11-01-2004, 02:02 PM

Maybe if somebody worth voting for was running Lib it would make a difference to me...but there isnt...and I dont really think I appreciate being told my vote isnt dignified because I dont like the Lib candidate either.

Halx · 11-01-2004, 02:03 PM

Averett, forgive this but I firmly believe that any conviction derived from either of the two main party candidates is faulty and mislead. They are billion dollar machines with the best social engineers working to shape your opinions and impressions. I don't buy into any of it.

Halx · 11-01-2004, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShaniFaye

Maybe if somebody worth voting for was running Lib it would make a difference to me...but there isnt...and I dont really think I appreciate being told my vote isnt dignified because I dont like the Lib candidate either.

Ok, then vote for another third party. The Libertarian party is just one of many.

daswig · 11-01-2004, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Halx

Averett, forgive this but I firmly believe that any conviction derived from either of the two main party candidates is faulty and mislead. They are billion dollar machines with the best social engineers working to shape your opinions and impressions. I don't buy into any of it.

And educated, informed people can see through the BS and still act appropriately.

Just because Cheney says "Vote Bush or America will be attacked again" and Kerry says "vote Kerry and France and Germany will send troops to help us in Iraq" doesn't mean we have to believe them.

Make up your own mind. That's why it was issued to you.

aliali · 11-01-2004, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Averett

I don't agree at all. So any vote for Kerry or Bush is not dignified? I firmly believe in Kerry, and that is who I'm voting for. I'm not voting for not-Bush. I'm not voting for a third party candidate just because it's cool these days. I'm voting for Kerry. I'm using my right to vote and placing it on Kerry because I believe that my cadidate is the right choice for me, and I'll be staying true to myself in doing so.

It's as simple as that.

Thank you, Averett. I disagree with you and hope you don't live in a swing state, but thank you. Have fun tomorrow and please don't vote a straight ticket.

DelayedReaction · 11-01-2004, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aliali

O.K. Libertarian. I could win back my dignity and self-respect by simply voting for a candidate who cannot win and if he did would cut 100 billion annually from the military budget, eliminate all welfare programs (food stamps, child care, low income housing, after school programs, job-training programs), and drastically lower the taxes of the richest americans. No, there will be no help for the corporations in that platform.

He would cut 100 billion from the budget by reducing their responsibility and by pulling them out of allied areas where they aren't needed. Why do Japan and Germany need us there to protect them? Welfare programs are done better through private charities, so why waste government dollars when there's a better alternative? Habitat for Humanity, for example, does a far better job of getting low-income families into stable homes than subsidized housing. And taxes would be lowered for everyone, not just the richest Americans.

By reducing the burden of the government to just protecting our rights and our land, you remove a great weight from the people. Or do you think the government does a better job of spending your money than you do?

I'm voting Libertarian. I don't care if it's not going to produce a viable result, it shows my support for an alternative to a two-party system.

ARTelevision · 11-01-2004, 02:12 PM

As my vote is a pure power play, based on my assessment of national and global politics and economics, I don't consider other distracting issues.

bling · 11-01-2004, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Halx

Averett, forgive this but I firmly believe that any conviction derived from either of the two main party candidates is faulty and mislead. They are billion dollar machines with the best social engineers working to shape your opinions and impressions. I don't buy into any of it.

Where's the financial cutoff that seperates true conviction from shaped opinion?

Badnarik has spent atleast a couple of million on his campaign. Is that not enough money to shape an opinion?

aliali · 11-01-2004, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Halx

You can get up on me all you want about how voting for a third party wont amount to anything, but that's the price you pay for staying true to yourself... or as true to yourself as the voting structure will let you be. To me, it's as simple as sacrifice. You're sacrificing your vote. To the materialistic world, it's an act made in vain, but to those around you who understand conviction, truth and piece of mind, it is a hell of a lot more than a wasted vote.

Not to mention, the more votes a third party gets, the more funding they receive from various sources.

I agree that a vote for a third party has value--including in terms of future viability. I just don't agree that any third party vote is the only way to preserve your self-respect. There are lots of third parties that are unworthy of being put on that pedestal. I wouldn't think less of anyone that choose a Republican or Democrat over a Libertarian.

Scipio · 11-01-2004, 02:14 PM

Voting against something is a rational choice, and one that holds just as much conviction as a vote for something. It seems strange that you condemn negative voting, and then espouse the virtues of voting against a decadent corporate government structure.

Secondly, I'm not ignorant of the fact that corporations and interests wield a lot of power. I was quite aware of that when I voted for Kerry. It's simple reality that people with lots of money also have lots of power, and that they use that power to pursue their own interests. Electing a third party (which won't happen anytime soon) won't change that. In my mind, it's naive to think that it will.

Halx · 11-01-2004, 02:15 PM

daswig, intelligence doesn't make you smart. Even if you're on top of what the parties are all about, you've been engineered in some way to accept these things as the most important issues. You're saying, "Yes big brother, I agree completely and thus I will vote for you." I apologize for arguing on a psychological and philosophical level in the politics forum, but when the parties incorporate both into their campaigns, there has to be someone to stand up and tell people not to buy into it.

Social psychology is one of my favorite subjects. It's an amaingly powerful tool that people in power use to influence those who are not. When you wise up to these schemes, perhaps you'll stand up for your rights as a human.

Flyguy · 11-01-2004, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Halx

Not to mention, the more votes a third party gets, the more funding they receive from various sources.

That's exactly what the Green party said 4 years ago. Where are they now?

aliali · 11-01-2004, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DelayedReaction

He would cut 100 billion from the budget by reducing their responsibility and by pulling them out of allied areas where they aren't needed. Why do Japan and Germany need us there to protect them? Welfare programs are done better through private charities, so why waste government dollars when there's a better alternative? Habitat for Humanity, for example, does a far better job of getting low-income families into stable homes than subsidized housing. And taxes would be lowered for everyone, not just the richest Americans.

By reducing the burden of the government to just protecting our rights and our land, you remove a great weight from the people. Or do you think the government does a better job of spending your money than you do?

I'm voting Libertarian. I don't care if it's not going to produce a viable result, it shows my support for an alternative to a two-party system.

These are all valid arguments and good reasons to vote Libertarian. I agree with most of them, but they are not reasons why anyone who disagrees with you and chooses to vote Rep. or Dem. has no dignity or self-respect or has been blinded and woozyified by the big mediapolitical machine. If I actually disagree with what the Liberatarian candidate stands for, should I vote for him just so I don't vote for a major party?

powerclown · 11-01-2004, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by daswig

And educated, informed people can see through the BS and still act appropriately.

Right. Vote for the party, the ideology, not the man personally. The Dems & Repubs represent the mainstream belief systems on all the major issues. The 3rd parties represent the extreme Right or Left belief systems of all the major issues. Just understand the overall picture: a vote against Kerry is a vote for Bush as far as who gets elected President; its all numbers.

bling · 11-01-2004, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ARTelevision

As my vote is a pure power play, based on my assessment of national and global politics and economics, I don't consider other distracting issues.

I think this is likely to be the basis for everyone's vote - their opinion (a conviction or a shaped opinion) based on their assessment of national and global politics and economics.

filtherton · 11-01-2004, 02:23 PM

I'm voting for kerry, even though he's a schmuck. I don't see how any third party candidate is less of a schmuck. I think what we are seeing now with our two party system is what we'd see regardless or the parties in power. If the libertarians or the greens or the constitutions got as huge as the dems or reps they'd be just as full of shit.

None of the candidates represent my viewpoint, and i think anyone who claims that a certain party's platform perfectly represents their will as a citizen is either a statistical necessity or a liar.

You can only think politics is about idealism if you haven't been paying attention to what it is really about, power.

irateplatypus · 11-01-2004, 02:27 PM

i think having a third party would have some positive effects on our electoral system... but as i've heard people from other countries who have 3 or more major parties say, one more party doesn't end the social engineering or cut down on corruption.

the problem isn't with the republicans or the democrats, the answer isn't in the greens or the libertarians. the problem is the people who desire power at any cost. the most effective fight against this damaging force to our republic is for every voter to reward integrity when it is demonstrated by an elected official and punish those who play dirty pool.

when enough of us are informed on the political climate to recognize fraud and when we have the solidarity to vote accordingly... that is when we'll see some genuine positive change.

Halx · 11-01-2004, 02:30 PM

Well then, before I leave to get stuff done today, I'll just say one more thing.

When I don't agree with something, I am not going to give it my endorsement. Not for any amount of money.

When I do agree with something, I criticize it just as much as I do it's counter-statement.

When I finally decide, I feel like I made a more spiritual choice than the most pious god-fearing christian.

11-01-2004, 11:48 AM	#1 (permalink)
Halx Please touch this. Owner/Admin Location: Manhattan	Final Thought Before Election Day This message is to anyone who is voting for one of the two major parties. I don't care who you're voting for, I just care that you're voting for one of them. I don't believe it is possible to make an informed decision about either of your choices anymore because it has become clear that neither side sticks to the truth or their own word. It's absolutely despicable to see that politics has degenerated into a cutthroat deception race. And no, it wasn't always that way. There was a good example of such on Bill Maher's show this week from Richard Belzer. Don't even try to claim for a second that your candidate has been faithful to you. We all know they haven't. Everything has become convoluted and the message no longer counts. What counts is that you vote for them at whatever cost of truth, morality and dignity. Are you give in and be a puppet? Or are you going to excercise your right as a free-thinking individual and vote for a candidate who leaves it up to you, the intelligent, informed voter? Make a stand at the voting booth. Do not give up your dignity and self-respect to appease the majority. Our ability to step beyond the herd is what separates humans from animals. __________________ You have found this post informative. -The Administrator [Don't Feed The Animals]

11-01-2004, 11:55 AM	#2 (permalink)
Paq Junkie Location: South Carolina	HERE HERE!!! THREE CHEERS FOR HAL!!!!!!! Hal for president!! __________________ Live. Chris

11-01-2004, 12:15 PM	#3 (permalink)
irateplatypus can't help but laugh Location: dar al-harb	sorry halx, i just don't agree with you. President Bush isn't all that i want him to be. he isn't really a conservative and his party isn't the last bastion of fiscal restraint as they would have you believe. however, when you separate the political machine from the man... i firmly believe in the President's sincerity, dignity, and deep moral convictions. i don't vote for the fundraising machine, i don't for the their side's lawyers, i don't vote for the attack ads... i vote for the candidate. you may argue that George W. Bush is misguided... but i firmly believe that he is a man of honor who believes with passion that he is doing what is right for his fellow man. i will proudly cast my vote for him tomorrow. __________________ If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves. ~ Winston Churchill

11-01-2004, 01:24 PM	#9 (permalink)
Halx Please touch this. Owner/Admin Location: Manhattan	Even if you're not voting FOR someone, but voting AGAINST, you're still not going with your convictions. If you even believe that your candidate is the strong, resolute and inpired one, you're only buying into the smoke screen of integrity that these people put up to win your vote so they may have the power to run their corporate schemes. No vote for a major party is dignified. __________________ You have found this post informative. -The Administrator [Don't Feed The Animals]

11-01-2004, 01:30 PM	#13 (permalink)
Halx Please touch this. Owner/Admin Location: Manhattan	No, I stated on my site that I am voting Libertarian. __________________ You have found this post informative. -The Administrator [Don't Feed The Animals]

11-01-2004, 12:18 PM	#4 (permalink)
aliali Insane Location: Missouri	So, is there no difference between the two major candidates? If there is, it would make sense for anyone for whom those differences are important to try to defeat the side they disagree with. Voting for Nader or anyone else doesn't help you beat Bush or Kerry. That's reality. It there is no difference b/t the two major parties, then there are a lot of reasonably intelligent people on this board who have no idea what is going on since they put so much effort into arguing for one side or the other. What in the wide world of sports would make anyone think that any third party would stand for truth, morality and dignity if it had any real chance at winning? I don't know what separates us from the animals, but I know it isn't related to how anyone reading this votes tomorrow. Polls suggest that around two-thirds of the military vote will probably go for Bush. I'm not ready to declare their loss of dignity and self-respect for that decision anymore than I would suggest the same for the one-third that will vote for Kerry. For that 1/2 of once percent that will choose someone else, good for them, but I'm sorry, that one decision doesn't not make them better, smarter, or awash in dignity and self-respect. If I want to be excercise my right as a free-thinking individual and vote for a candidate who leaves it up to me, the intelligent, informed voter, where would I turn? There are lots of good reasons to vote a third party--protest, really believe it is the best vote, can't decide between the major parties--but the fact that it makes you special and smart isn't one of them. And, and I know this all sounds pretty negative, I wouldn't put much stock in having Belzer and/or Maher as professors of political history.

11-01-2004, 12:22 PM	#5 (permalink)
alto92 Upright	fair enough, platypus. i don't think george bush is that bad of a guy. the problem is you CANT separate the man from the political machine because he buys into it - fully. and when he and his party puts people into positions of power who are insincere, undignified, and morally bankrupt, halx's assertion becomes soberingly correct, and bush's sincerity, dignity, and deep moral convictions are lost.

11-01-2004, 12:28 PM	#6 (permalink)
daswig Banned Location: BFE	My vote is going where it's going not because I support the candidate I'm voting for, but because I feel that the other candidate is beyond dispicable. As the saying goes: "I wouldn't piss on his head if his hair was on fire." Not that I wish his hair was on fire; I don't. I just hope he goes away and leaves us in peace or war or whatever.

11-01-2004, 01:33 PM	#15 (permalink)
Flyguy Banned Location: Swooping down on you from above....	So really Halx, what's the alternative? I totally see where you're coming from and I agree with you but, what else can be done? Third parties don't stand a chance in hell anytime soon until the people wake up and stop allowing the two major parties to keep them out of the debates, keep them off ballots, keep them out of the general mainstream, etc. Fact is, one of the two major parties will win either tomorrow of after all the legal dust settles. So for this election, I have to go with the dems because they're closest to my beliefs and what's important to me. I'd love to dump their ass in a second for another party, but we all saw where making a statement at the voting booth 4 years ago got us.

11-01-2004, 01:44 PM	#17 (permalink)
aliali Insane Location: Missouri	O.K. Libertarian. I could win back my dignity and self-respect by simply voting for a candidate who cannot win and if he did would cut 100 billion annually from the military budget, eliminate all welfare programs (food stamps, child care, low income housing, after school programs, job-training programs), and drastically lower the taxes of the richest americans. No, there will be no help for the corporations in that platform. Third Party. Any of them? Write in? I just turned 35. Guess you could vote for me. Is it a particular way a person has to vote, or is it just for someone that can't win?

11-01-2004, 01:48 PM	#19 (permalink)
aliali Insane Location: Missouri	Come on. Someone here is for Kerry and proud of it. Let's hear it.

11-01-2004, 01:51 PM	#20 (permalink)
Halx Please touch this. Owner/Admin Location: Manhattan	You can get up on me all you want about how voting for a third party wont amount to anything, but that's the price you pay for staying true to yourself... or as true to yourself as the voting structure will let you be. To me, it's as simple as sacrifice. You're sacrificing your vote. To the materialistic world, it's an act made in vain, but to those around you who understand conviction, truth and piece of mind, it is a hell of a lot more than a wasted vote. Not to mention, the more votes a third party gets, the more funding they receive from various sources. __________________ You have found this post informative. -The Administrator [Don't Feed The Animals]

11-01-2004, 02:02 PM	#23 (permalink)
ShaniFaye Submit to me, you know you want to Location: Lilburn, Ga	Maybe if somebody worth voting for was running Lib it would make a difference to me...but there isnt...and I dont really think I appreciate being told my vote isnt dignified because I dont like the Lib candidate either. __________________ *I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!*

11-01-2004, 02:03 PM	#24 (permalink)
Halx Please touch this. Owner/Admin Location: Manhattan	Averett, forgive this but I firmly believe that any conviction derived from either of the two main party candidates is faulty and mislead. They are billion dollar machines with the best social engineers working to shape your opinions and impressions. I don't buy into any of it. __________________ You have found this post informative. -The Administrator [Don't Feed The Animals]

11-01-2004, 02:12 PM	#29 (permalink)
ARTelevision I change Location: USA	As my vote is a pure power play, based on my assessment of national and global politics and economics, I don't consider other distracting issues. __________________ create evolution

11-01-2004, 02:14 PM	#32 (permalink)
Scipio Mencken Location: College	Voting against something is a rational choice, and one that holds just as much conviction as a vote for something. It seems strange that you condemn negative voting, and then espouse the virtues of voting against a decadent corporate government structure. Secondly, I'm not ignorant of the fact that corporations and interests wield a lot of power. I was quite aware of that when I voted for Kerry. It's simple reality that people with lots of money also have lots of power, and that they use that power to pursue their own interests. Electing a third party (which won't happen anytime soon) won't change that. In my mind, it's naive to think that it will. __________________ "Erections lasting more than 4 hours, though rare, require immediate medical attention."

11-01-2004, 02:15 PM	#33 (permalink)
Halx Please touch this. Owner/Admin Location: Manhattan	daswig, intelligence doesn't make you smart. Even if you're on top of what the parties are all about, you've been engineered in some way to accept these things as the most important issues. You're saying, "Yes big brother, I agree completely and thus I will vote for you." I apologize for arguing on a psychological and philosophical level in the politics forum, but when the parties incorporate both into their campaigns, there has to be someone to stand up and tell people not to buy into it. Social psychology is one of my favorite subjects. It's an amaingly powerful tool that people in power use to influence those who are not. When you wise up to these schemes, perhaps you'll stand up for your rights as a human. __________________ You have found this post informative. -The Administrator [Don't Feed The Animals]

11-01-2004, 02:23 PM	#38 (permalink)
filtherton Junkie Location: In the land of ice and snow.	I'm voting for kerry, even though he's a schmuck. I don't see how any third party candidate is less of a schmuck. I think what we are seeing now with our two party system is what we'd see regardless or the parties in power. If the libertarians or the greens or the constitutions got as huge as the dems or reps they'd be just as full of shit. None of the candidates represent my viewpoint, and i think anyone who claims that a certain party's platform perfectly represents their will as a citizen is either a statistical necessity or a liar. You can only think politics is about idealism if you haven't been paying attention to what it is really about, power.

11-01-2004, 02:27 PM	#39 (permalink)
irateplatypus can't help but laugh Location: dar al-harb	i think having a third party would have some positive effects on our electoral system... but as i've heard people from other countries who have 3 or more major parties say, one more party doesn't end the social engineering or cut down on corruption. the problem isn't with the republicans or the democrats, the answer isn't in the greens or the libertarians. the problem is the people who desire power at any cost. the most effective fight against this damaging force to our republic is for every voter to reward integrity when it is demonstrated by an elected official and punish those who play dirty pool. when enough of us are informed on the political climate to recognize fraud and when we have the solidarity to vote accordingly... that is when we'll see some genuine positive change. __________________ If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves. ~ Winston Churchill

11-01-2004, 02:30 PM	#40 (permalink)
Halx Please touch this. Owner/Admin Location: Manhattan	Well then, before I leave to get stuff done today, I'll just say one more thing. When I don't agree with something, I am not going to give it my endorsement. Not for any amount of money. When I do agree with something, I criticize it just as much as I do it's counter-statement. When I finally decide, I feel like I made a more spiritual choice than the most pious god-fearing christian. __________________ You have found this post informative. -The Administrator [Don't Feed The Animals]