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US Deficit Graph
This says a lot.
Good handling of the US economy? http://www.uuforum.org/Images/deficit.gif I'm confused. Mr Mephisto |
is it just me or does this show that the democratic presidents have been better at handline money then the repubs? seems to go against what people normally say... weird.
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Clinton was probably the greatest moderate/conservative president we've ever had. He believed in fiscal sanity, accountable government, reform of the bureaucracy, welfare reform, strong anti-crime policy, and political compromise.
If only conservatives cared more about "government" than they do about sex. |
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please stay on topic.
Although I can see the reasoning behind focusing on Clinton....the topic is economics in this thread. Perhaps we could use this as a constructive discussion about the circumstance that created the economic growth. |
Ah. The partisan fiscal conservatives' nightmare.
But to be fair - 9/11 was devastating for the economy. If this graph were zoomed in to mid-2001 to mid-2002, you'd see a major drop right after 9/11. Now, it is my opinion that Bush has done exceptionally little to address that unforeseeable plunge. And rushing into a $225 billion war only fans the flames. |
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I think the figures speak for themselves.
Net Gain under Clinton: +523 Net Loss under Bush: -713 (FY04) That's a difference of 1,234 "points". Quite a difference. Or is anything good that happened during the Clinton years due to other factors over which they had no control or input at all? Mr Mephisto |
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Ahhhh, so Clinto isn't responsible for his turn around yet, it was rebounding before he was elected and then the 94 GOP revolution created this greathuge surpluss, but Clinton IS responsible for the economy Bush inherited and the GOP congress that was just praised had nothing at all to do with that part of the economy....... what hypocrasy. That makes no sense to anyone but GOP'ers that can't face the truth. But now there is a huge question...... the GOP has all the power and has had 4 years and the deficit is still dropping faster than Jimmy Swaggert's pants in a Motel 6 with a hooker in his bed. |
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You're undoubtedly right Daswig.
They are a "little inflated" by those things. But not entirely. :) Mr Mephisto |
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It may very well be that the Timing is relevant to that which you proclaim...but the way you state it is not likely to gain participation in this debate. |
Well, I think it has to do with the fact that Republicans believe that spending money helps the economy and Democrats believe saving money helps the economy. This graph just illustrates that difference in mentality.
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Psssst, Mephisto... Check out that website you gave http://www.factcheck.org
Its got some stuff relating to this and how its really not as bad as it looks once you factor in inflation... |
Psssst, Irishsean,
I most certainly shall. As I said when referring to the site, even I should check that site regularly. However, even if we take inflation into account, whilst the difference may not be "as bad as it looks", there is certainly a difference. Or do you believe there is no difference in the way Bush handles the economy vs the way Clinton did? Honest question. Don't you think, even a little bit, that Bush is a bit more economically rash or a poorer manager? Mr Mephisto PS - Sarcasm has its place. Unfortunately this wasn't one of them. :) |
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All this shows is that Clinton balanced the budget, and Bush spent all the surplus and then 5x more. But really, if you take out Clinton, Bush only went down 200. His dad went down 150. That's pretty even if you consider inflation. He's just trying to be like his dad! |
Ok, no sarcasm, I got it.
The above graph this post is based on is for all intents and purposes true, and yet has no practical meaning. While this years budget is the largest ever at nearly half a trillion dollars, in reality it only comes to about 4.5% of the entire economy. Look back to WWII when our deficit ran to 30% of the entire economy. http://www.factcheck.org/article148.html |
Here's the link that Irishsean alluded to, but failed to reference. [EDIT: Irishsean posted a link at the same time I made this post. Please ignore the proceeding comment] Never let it be said that I'm biased or ignore valid contradictory claims.
http://www.factcheck.org/article148.html Oh, by the way... the facts still speak for themselves. Read the article. You (like me) may learn something. Quote:
So I guess the current deficit is not "the worst in history" (something I never claimed by the way). It's just as bad as the some other Republicans created! Well, that makes me feel much better. :) Mr Mephisto |
From the same article:
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the effect of Clinton's 1993 tax increases was, "Yet what eventually followed was the longest expansion in U.S. history, a big surplus, and an unemployment rate that fell below 4%." Quote:
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Let's all take a deep breath and remember that the checkbook is ultimately in the hands of Congress. As a general rule I think the Presidency is a lot like the Quarterback position in the NFL. When a team is doing really really well, the QB usually gets too much credit and when it is doing poorly the QB usually gets too much of the blame. The Presidency is alot like that.
Constitutionally the Congress is responsible for the money. |
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I love the "Tax cuts for the rich" that keep getting brought up. The affluent, even after two bush tax cuts still pay more than any other group.
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The only thing misleading about this chart is associating the presidents names with it, as if these puppets had anything to do with it. To a fiscal conservative or Libertarian the difference between the Democrat and Republican platform is miniscule.
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Erm... Isn't that the whole idea?! Mr Mephisto |
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Nothing like a good graph for explaining things. I'd love to see more graphs on stuff.
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It is generally undeniable that since the rise of Reagan, the GOP has taken kindly to deficit spending. Cheney has said repeatedly that they proved that deficits did not matter during the early 80's. He and the NeoCons are much less fiscally conservative than mainstream Republicans and that is why many within the GOP are concerned about the Bush Administration's fiscal plan.
I would not argue that a slowing economy was in place when GW Bush took office and that 9/11 dealt quite a blow to the U.S. economy. I would argue that continuing with tax cuts, large and significant tax cuts, while increasing spending on domestic programs and the military shows poor fiscal policy and a willingness to place the burden of war and the cost of this recession on future generations. I think that Clinton and the Congress of the 90's showed us that we can attain a high level of ecomonic security and success while avoiding the creation of deficits. You can argue that we needed to increase military spending during those years (of course Clinton was just continuing post Cold War policies put in place by Secretary of Defense Cheney and GHW Bush), but we easily could have used the surplus money the Clinton Administration generated to help facilitate that. I am not opposed to tax cuts or even deficits. I think we can all agree that deficit spending post Depression and during and post WWII was necessary. I think you can even make the arguement that deficit spending accelerated the fall of the Soviet Union. I do not think that deficit spending will help defeat Al Qaida or the "War on Terror". I think that a rollback to a more Clinton era tax structure, while including much of the first Bush tax cut/stimulus plan would help to slow deficit spending and pay for the war, military expansion etc. Overall, I truly believe that Democrats are much better stewards of the nation. Yes, they do spend money on social programs, but Republicans spend on them as well and increase spending on military matters at a much higher rate. Let's face it, bread is cheaper than bullets. We need to spend on both, just not too much of either. |
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http://www.epinet.org/webfeatures/ec...ct20040826.gif And the text that goes along with it: http://www.epinet.org/content.cfm/we...income20040826 Here's another showing how our present post-recession job "boom" matches up to the 7 previous post-recession job booms: http://www.epinet.org/images/snap20041025.gif And the text that goes along with it: http://www.epinet.org/content.cfm/we...shots_10252004 |
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One of the most important factors is being left out of this debate - interest rates
When you buy a home do you look at the total price or the monthly price? We pay on the deficit like homeowners pay on their mortgage. A $300,000 house can be too expensive at XX% and more than affordable at a lower percentage. Why else do we jump on the refinance wagon everytime the rate goes down? Since we do not pay the debt off all at once, the true "expense" of the debt can only be measured by comparing payments, interest rates, etc. That being said, without comparing corresponding interest rates (ceteris paribus and strength of the economy aside), the discussion is moot. In other words, this is just a graph of numbers without the necessary corresponding numbers needed for this debate. /thinks Bush overspent //remembers 9/11 and the recession |
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Reagan = No, he didn't (remove defense out of the equation) look at the statistics |
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I pulled the number out of my butt, regardless of the sell price of the house, the interest rate is a major factor. If you can afford an $80,000 house with an interest rate of 8%, imagine how much nicer of a house you can get at 7%. 6%. 5%. my point being, this debate/argument is missing many key elements that are extremely important and relevant. The topic itself is very important, but to leave out key factors and points, makes the end result moot. /still thinks Bush Jr. overspent |
What I would like to see is a graph on the change in tax dollars paid to the government. I believe in supply-side economics, but I'd like confirmation.
Clinton's economy did well not just because of the .com bubble, it was mostly from the .com boom. The economy under Bush struggled after the bubble burst, and after 9/11. We're starting to get on the right track now, with better GDP growth and moderate job creation, but oil prices seem to be dampening the economy quite a bit (side note--PLEASE let us drill in ANWAR, Alaskans want to!) |
Look, rather than looking at the people responsible for the ups and downs, look at the magnitued of ups and downs. That, folks, is the graph of a driven oscillation about to hit resonance. Time to buy gold. All economics aside, look at the graph: it's essentially a sine wave bounded by hyperbolae and just about to head off toward infinity. Let's hope that it's got a positive derivative when it finally does bust loose.
Why do politicians hate America so much? |
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Call me a cynic if you want. Mr Mephisto |
This seems wrong... where did you find this???
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