I knew I was being dense. He was one of the best military leaders we had at the time but he didn't see which way the wind was blowing. Comparing him to Kerry seems like a bit of a stretch to me.

Liberman was the only one that was worth voting for in my book.

Gephardt didn't suck too badly either.

He reminds me more of a car salesman then a president. Plus he always would make up imaginary friends to support his point. He did suck less then the rest though, you are correct, though he was way to deep in the Unions pockets.

Better to be in the pocket of organized crime (I mean labor...organized labor, dangnabit!!) than to be in the pocket of organized crime (why do I have so much trouble saying "labor"???) AND be a traitor to your country in a time of war...

How do you use the NBC reporters to prove that the weapons were already gone, when the NBC reporters are saying they never did a weapons search (outside of soldiers admiring the huge caches of weapons that were laying around in the open). And then moved on, leaving them for looters.
So, um, What now?

Interesting Oct. 14, 2004 news report hints that previously U.N. inspected
Iraqi nuclear weapons facilities were not secured by U.S. occupation forces.
(Maybe there were not enough U.S. and other post invasion coalition forces
deployed in Iraq to adequately carry out securing, monitoring, and guarding
sites previously identified and inventoried by U.N weaspons inspectors.)

Which is another way of saying our Administration did a poor job of carrying out the invasion if they were unprepared to secure weapons caches as they passed them en route to skirmishes.

So let me get this straight. We couldn't find any WMD's that we weren't sure were there and we can't find 380 tons of high grade explosives we knew were there.

All the evidence points toward the 380 tons of explosives going missing BEFORE the arrival of US troops. Where did it go?

I for one still believe there were WMD's in some form in Iraq prior to the US invasion. If 380 tons of exposives could have been removed by saddam before the US invasion then he sure as hell could have moved any WMD's he had.

It would be a consolation prize for saddam if he embaresses bush by not using WMD's and not having any found. It just might sway world opinion against Bush. He knows he wasn't going to win the war even if he used WMD's. Using them would only prove Bush right.

So to me it looks as if the 380 tons of explosives just might be in the same place as the WMD's. Don't as me where. It's a big freakin sandbox.

There is no evidence that points toward the 380 tons of explosive going missing before the arrival of US troops.

There is no evidence either way at this point.

There is probability. And there is a much higher degree of probability that the explosives went missing after the arrival of US troops.

All of that information is contained either in this thread or in the links from this thread. I'll leave it to you to read the thread more closely.

There is a much higher degree of probability that the explosives went missing BEFORE the arrival of US troops. In the month April, when the US troops reached Baghdad, where was the insurgency? It was in infantile stages, definately not capeable of transporting 40 truckloads of explosives around Iraq on roads heavy with US forces.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,136745,00.html

I would like to repeat one thing that some of you people may not have heard.

The reports of US troops passing that region as early as April 4th means that the NBC reporter was most likely speculating! He/She probably did not realize that soldiers had already passed through and assumed that they were gone before the troops she was with stopped their.

I repeat this because I think it is a very rational explanation of the entire issue and I think some people didn't pick it up.

By your own article, you are suggesting that the explosives were removed sometime between March 16th and April 2nd and not removed sometime between April 3rd and May 8th.

It would hardly be difficult for any insurgency to remove them after April 3rd - all it takes is knowledge of the whereabouts (and we know that many in the insurgency, particularly at the start, were Saddam military) and some trucks. Hardly a mission requiring a high degree of organization on the part of the insurgents.


Jonjon42 - also note that the NBC reporter has already stated that she has no idea if the explosives were still there because the troops she was with did not search the facility.

Al Qaeda is not the only source of terrorism. More troops in Iraq does not mean less guerilla activity. At the very least the opposition in Iraq and Afghanistan will test Kerry's resolve especially given his well rehearsed stance of "wrong war, wrong time" etc.

Our military is still incredibly capable of doing more. It took us how many hours to complete both Gulf Wars? Destruction of a state sponsor of terrorism would take little effort. Trying to occupy one is certainly a different matter. Regime change (which requires ground forces) would not be the first step but, like Iraq, the last.

There is a difference between "resolve" and critiquing an administration that hastily rushed to war with little support.

Right. Goddamn George W. Bush! He was in office for EIGHT WHOLE MONTHS and didn't manage to rid the world of everybody that hates us!!! :crazy:

If Dubya had gotten into office, and the first thing he did was start bombing the shit out of terrorists that wanted to kill Americans, people would have positively HIT THE FRIGGING ROOF. (BTW, that would have INCLUDED hitting Baghdad...)

You forget that we had military planes over the entire area [roughly the size of California?] continually. It would be almost impossible for at least 40 truckloads to be loaded and carted off. Simply to load 380 tons of munitions would take at minimum hours, more likely days to complete. With the air cover and all those pilots looking for targets I find it unlikely to believe that it could have been accomplished.

The contention is that the area was unguarded. You have just described a scenario that claims the area was essentially guarded. I am not familiar with the area and I suspect you are not either, so to state that it is unlikely or likely to be accomplished based on our lack of information on the area doesn't get us anywhere.

But information such as this lends much credence to the probability that the explosives where looted post-Military arrival:

I didn't imply that Bush should have cleansed the world of terrorism, I only made the comment that his administration was as guilty of ignoring Al Qaeda as the previous administration. Putting words in my mouth does not change that fact.

Yes it has been reported from various news organizations (mynews, foxnews, cnn) that the weapons were gone before the troops were in Iraq

And those news reports hinge on information that has been demonstrated to be false - namely, that either of the two U.S. military groups who passed through the area had searched for the explosives.

Commanders of both units have now said they did not search.

GERTZ // THURSDAY // WASH TIMES: Russian special forces troops moved many of Saddam Hussein's weapons and related goods out of Iraq and into Syria in the weeks before the March 2003 U.S. military operation, The Washington Times has learned. John A. Shaw, the deputy undersecretary of defense for international technology security, said in an interview that he believes the Russian troops, working with Iraqi intelligence, “almost certainly” removed the high-explosive material that went missing from the Al-Qaqaa facility, south of Baghdad.
This is from drudge real intresting

Whats the point behind guarding the explosives at all? Catalogue them for evidence, set the timer for 10 minutes and step on the gas! Another problem solved.

"Russia tied to Iraq's missing arms"
http://www.washingtontimes.com/natio...2637-6257r.htm

"Russian special forces troops moved many of Saddam Hussein's weapons and related goods out of Iraq and into Syria in the weeks before the March 2003 U.S. military operation, The Washington Times has learned.
John A. Shaw, the deputy undersecretary of defense for international technology security, said in an interview that he believes the Russian troops, working with Iraqi intelligence, "almost certainly" removed the high-explosive material that went missing from the Al-Qaqaa facility, south of Baghdad.
"The Russians brought in, just before the war got started, a whole series of military units," Mr. Shaw said. "Their main job was to shred all evidence of any of the contractual arrangements they had with the Iraqis. The others were transportation units."
Mr. Shaw, who was in charge of cataloging the tons of conventional arms provided to Iraq by foreign suppliers, said he recently obtained reliable information on the arms-dispersal program from two European intelligence services that have detailed knowledge of the Russian-Iraqi weapons collaboration.
Most of Saddam's most powerful arms were systematically separated from other arms like mortars, bombs and rockets, and sent to Syria and Lebanon, and possibly to Iran, he said.
The Russian involvement in helping disperse Saddam's weapons, including some 380 tons of RDX and HMX, is still being investigated, Mr. Shaw said.
The RDX and HMX, which are used to manufacture high-explosive and nuclear weapons, are probably of Russian origin, he said.
Pentagon spokesman Larry DiRita could not be reached for comment.
The disappearance of the material was reported in a letter Oct. 10 from the Iraqi government to the International Atomic Energy Agency.
Disclosure of the missing explosives Monday in a New York Times story was used by the Democratic presidential campaign of Sen. John Kerry, who accused the Bush administration of failing to secure the material.
Al-Qaqaa, a known Iraqi weapons site, was monitored closely, Mr. Shaw said.
"That was such a pivotal location, Number 1, that the mere fact of [special explosives] disappearing was impossible," Mr. Shaw said. "And Number 2, if the stuff disappeared, it had to have gone before we got there."
The Pentagon disclosed yesterday that the Al-Qaqaa facility was defended by Fedayeen Saddam, Special Republican Guard and other Iraqi military units during the conflict. U.S. forces defeated the defenders around April 3 and found the gates to the facility open, the Pentagon said in a statement yesterday.
A military unit in charge of searching for weapons, the Army's 75th Exploitation Task Force, then inspected Al-Qaqaa on May 8, May 11 and May 27, 2003, and found no high explosives that had been monitored in the past by the IAEA.
The Pentagon said there was no evidence of large-scale movement of explosives from the facility after April 6.
"The movement of 377 tons of heavy ordnance would have required dozens of heavy trucks and equipment moving along the same roadways as U.S. combat divisions occupied continually for weeks prior to and subsequent to the 3rd Infantry Division's arrival at the facility," the statement said.
The statement also said that the material may have been removed from the site by Saddam's regime.
According to the Pentagon, U.N. arms inspectors sealed the explosives at Al-Qaqaa in January 2003 and revisited the site in March and noted that the seals were not broken.
It is not known whether the inspectors saw the explosives in March. The U.N. team left the country before the U.S.-led invasion began March 20, 2003.
A second defense official said documents on the Russian support to Iraq reveal that Saddam's government paid the Kremlin for the special forces to provide security for Iraq's Russian arms and to conduct counterintelligence activities designed to prevent U.S. and Western intelligence services from learning about the arms pipeline through Syria.
The Russian arms-removal program was initiated after Yevgeny Primakov, the former Russian intelligence chief, could not persuade Saddam to give in to U.S. and Western demands, this official said.
A small portion of Iraq's 650,000 tons to 1 million tons of conventional arms that were found after the war were looted after the U.S.-led invasion, Mr. Shaw said. Russia was Iraq's largest foreign supplier of weaponry, he said.
However, the most important and useful arms and explosives appear to have been separated and moved out as part of carefully designed program. "The organized effort was done in advance of the conflict," Mr. Shaw said.
The Russian forces were tasked with moving special arms out of the country.
Mr. Shaw said foreign intelligence officials believe the Russians worked with Saddam's Mukhabarat intelligence service to separate out special weapons, including high explosives and other arms and related technology, from standard conventional arms spread out in some 200 arms depots.
The Russian weapons were then sent out of the country to Syria, and possibly Lebanon in Russian trucks, Mr. Shaw said.
Mr. Shaw said he believes that the withdrawal of Russian-made weapons and explosives from Iraq was part of plan by Saddam to set up a "redoubt" in Syria that could be used as a base for launching pro-Saddam insurgency operations in Iraq.
The Russian units were dispatched beginning in January 2003 and by March had destroyed hundreds of pages of documents on Russian arms supplies to Iraq while dispersing arms to Syria, the second official said.
Besides their own weapons, the Russians were supplying Saddam with arms made in Ukraine, Belarus, Bulgaria and other Eastern European nations, he said.
"Whatever was not buried was put on lorries and sent to the Syrian border," the defense official said.
Documents reviewed by the official included itineraries of military units involved in the truck shipments to Syria. The materials outlined in the documents included missile components, MiG jet parts, tank parts and chemicals used to make chemical weapons, the official said.
The director of the Iraqi government front company known as the Al Bashair Trading Co. fled to Syria, where he is in charge of monitoring arms holdings and funding Iraqi insurgent activities, the official said.
Also, an Arabic-language report obtained by U.S. intelligence disclosed the extent of Russian armaments. The 26-page report was written by Abdul Tawab Mullah al Huwaysh, Saddam's minister of military industrialization, who was captured by U.S. forces May 2, 2003.
The Russian "spetsnaz" or special-operations forces were under the GRU military intelligence service and organized large commercial truck convoys for the weapons removal, the official said.
Regarding the explosives, the new Iraqi government reported that 194.7 metric tons of HMX, or high-melting-point explosive, and 141.2 metric tons of RDX, or rapid-detonation explosive, and 5.8 metric tons of PETN, or pentaerythritol tetranitrate, were missing.
The material is used in nuclear weapons and also in making military "plastic" high explosive.
Defense officials said the Russians can provide information on what happened to the Iraqi weapons and explosives that were transported out of the country. Officials believe the Russians also can explain what happened to Iraq's weapons of mass destruction programs."

--FYI: There was an anti-John Edwards ad in the center of this article on the web page. It is a news article in a national paper, but it instantly makes me question the credibility of the whole thing. If it's true, then this situation will get really ugly really fast. My goodness--Russia working with Iraq to move weapons into Syria before we got to them? That's a huge scandal, and may prove to be new-thread-worthy.

That doesn't help explain what the thousands of containers of explosives were that was reported April 4th + 5th, as I mentioned 2 posts ago.

And another one:
So another story from Drudge which attempts to refute the increasingly probable reality that the explosives were looted post-U.S. military, a story which is coming from the Wasington Times quoting a single Pentagon official, claiming RUSSIA took the explosives .... is not compelling.

I am saying that Generals plan wars. Remember all those LT Col, Col and Generals that went to war college while we were in? It was a requirement for senior officers. I find it hard to believe that a retired E-7 cannot remember (you got CRS) who preforms the function of war planning.

We had Dynasty Oriental Buffet if anyone cares. Fishking sputtered his opinionated bullshit at me and I responded in kind. In the end, I got him to pay more of the bill. :thumbsup:

Now he needs to fess up with the links he promised. Hint: guns, fuel.

Ok the weapons was looted "post-Military arrival". :thumbsup: In my opinion this whole thing is just another attempt by the extreme left to muddy the waters with just enough truth to make it difficult to disprove the allegations before the election.

I believe it's apparent that just about everyone has made up their mind about this election and no amount of "evidence" or "common sense" is going to change anyone's mind at this point. I originally came to this site seeking information and a reason to vote for Kerry because I wasn't sure GWB was the man to lead us for another 4 years. Since then opinions, lies and half-truths have convinced me that indeed GWB is the better alternative.

I was thinking about that earlier.
A lot of people have a high amount of emotion, personal time and belief structure hinging on this election. At this point, no matter how conclusive something is against a candidate their supporters won't give a douche. Any attack on their candidate at this point is basically an attack on them and any credation of the claims basically makes their political values and time invested seem worthless. So an individual will fight against it at any cost.

It's ok, and I understand. I'd probrably do the same thing in your position, honestly.

Those interested in this thread should check out this one I recently made in light of some possible new information. There is footage and accounts of what could possibly be the explosives, being found and left unguarded by troops.

http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=74150

Maybe I should have just put it with this.

Is that to say it is an "extreme left" viewpoint that massive explosive depots should be guarded from looting?

I consider reports of thousands of containers of explosives being found by our troops as "evidence" that when we arrived, the explosives had not been removed.

You joined the debate of this issue of your own free will. And it seems when it didn't go your way, you threw up your arms and said "Well, it's just an extreme viewpoint to even consider this. I tried to be swayed, but no "evidence" or "common sense" exists which will change my mind at this point." If that's the case, why did you even try and debate the issue?

I mean this in a light-hearted sorta way and it's nothing personal or anything like that, but from this side of the fence I can say the same to you "It's ok, and I understand. I'd probrably do the same thing in your position, honestly."
I think in some sense we are both in the same big ocean, the only difference being the boat we are choosing to get us safely back to shore! In the end we all will make it safely to the same spot because, after a close review, the paths of both boats aren't really that different. The only true difference being the skipper we choose to ride with.

President Bush sent out his surrogates today to say that it wasn't his fault that these weapons were lost, its the fault of the troops.

In case you missed it, here is what Rudy Guiliani said on the Today Show:
Somehow these guys have found a way to piss me off even more when I didn't think I could get any more pissed off.

Vials do not weigh 100 pounds each. They found "thousands", so say they found 10 thousand. We're talking about 380 tons of explosives, which is near 800,000 pounds. If there were 10,000 vials, then each one would have to weigh around 80 pounds each to consist of the explosives that the IAEA are talking about. It has been reported that the containers containing explosives had been sealed with designated stickers, and none of those stickers had been found at any time that coalition troops searched the area.

I'm not very confident in the validity of the Russia story either, especially since no one in the national media (including Fox News) has taken to it. It's more important to wait and see right now, rather than blame the Bush administration for "losing" the weapons. I've got a feeling that in time, we'll realize that the weapons were gone already. Just think about it--we're watching them through the air and by satelllite, driving around nearby, and nobody notices 380 tons of material being moved? It just doesn't fit to me.

Take a look at the video that can be found in the following link.

http://www.kstp.com/article/stories/S3723.html?cat=1

It looks like it could be the said explosives to me. What do you guys think?

More on what was found, including pictures (thanks Booboo):

I don't believe any one of us is in any position to know how possible it would have been for someone to come along and take them without our military understanding what was taking place. If anything, the chaos in the immediate aftermath of a war would suggest anything is possible. Sure, it might be accurate to state that we were guarding the area simply because we were around the area and therefore the explosives could not have been removed - but one could just as easily claim, as the crux of this discussion does, that no U.S. Military was really paying attention.

bling, that looks like explosives to me. Those boxes in this photo:

http://www.kstp.com/kstpimages/Al-Qaqaa-pix_09a.jpg

weigh 100 pounds each, so there would have to be 8000 of them, or something like them, to add up to 400 tons. The government's checking on it now, they'll surely let us know on Wednesday. Interestingly, the facility didn't seem fenced. I still favor the idea that the explosives were removed prior to our arrival, but this is some strong evidence to the contrary.

Yeah - I agree it is strong evidence showing tons of explosives at the compound after the U.S. military had arrived.

And this pretty much puts it over the edge now - the IAEA-sealed explosives are those in the pics above:

http://kstp.com/kstpimages/IAEA-seal_011.jpg http://kstp.com/kstpimages/Al-QaQaa-pix_10.jpg http://kstp.com/kstpimages/IAEA-seal_03.jpg

http://kstp.com/article/stories/S3741.html?cat=1

bling, you have a picture of a locked door--not exactly pictures of tons of marked explosives. If you had a picture of the same door opened and vacant, I'm still not sure that I'd be convinced, because the Iraqis could have locked the door when they left.

CNN showed a satellite picture from late March 2003 that has a large flatbed truck in front of a bunker. The Pentagon admits that this doesn't necessarily mean that the explosives were taken before we got there, but I don't think the fat lady's sung yet.

You're misinterpreting the pictures. All of the photos (including the ones posted earlier) come from the same video, from the KSTP station. To "relock" the door would require the correct IAEA seal equipment - and why would anyone, looters or Saddam need to "relock" the door if they are removing the contents? It doesn't make any sense.

And that is refuted here: http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/wo...a-imagery4.htm

"Rushed" is your opinion not everyone's and that has nothing to do with the fact that Kerry has little stake in the rebuilding of Iraq being a success. He can claim it all he wants but the second it becomes apparent that he can do no better job than Bush has done to control the insurgency and more quickly train Iraqis to take up their own security he will paint the picture of how he "nobly tried to fix the horrible situation he was stuck with, but alas even he could not". His well publicized labeling of the Iraqi invasion will push the opposition to increase attacks because he has given the perception of having a lower breaking point than Bush in this matter.

You can find here David Kay, the head weapons inspector in Iraq, saying that the pictures are, indeed, HMX and RDX.

Some highlights from his exchange with Aaron Brown:

snip

snip

There is no question about it.

--Edited for grammar.

I know the generals and Col and Lt Col when to war college. Let me respond by saying this...If you go to the doctor and have your nuts checked are you sure the doctor doing the checking was the A+ student or the one who just got by with a C- and some how made it? I thing even you can figure out what I am saying.


I payed for more of the lunch because you Voted your wallet and not your Poor......I feel bad having a battle of witts with a unarmed perosn :crazy:

<a href="http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/welch-mccarthy.html"><h3>Mr. Bush......You've done enough. Have you no sense of decency, sir, at long last? Have you left no sense of decency?</h3></a>

Three republican party stalwarts, and ardent Bush supporters; Giuliani , Kristol,
and Ingraham are on record placing the blame for the missing explosives in Iraq
squarely where they must believe that it belongs, and far away from Bush:

if you look closely the various beheadings in Irak you will see part of that arsenal.

Heh host...

I used that exact same quote earlier. :)


Mr Mephisto

Yeah, it's pretty much proven that key and well documented explosives bunkers weren't secured during and after the invasion. You can stop defending the president now. The facts have caught up with you.

And the proof that the explosives were not moved prior to or during the invasion would be where?

The video and photographic evidence showing the explosives on location towards the end of April.

Which has been pointed to and discussed in this thread already.

Not exactly damning evidence since the articles quoted in the thread said there were ventilation walls with slats that could be removed to enter/exit the bunkers. Additionally, as others pointed out, closed crates and doors with locks on them do not prove they were not moved. Do you honestly believe it is completely impossible for someone to replicate the UN locks? Not saying that it happened here but your desire to overlook these possibilities and instead state with absolute certainty that the explosives were there doesn't instill confidence in your impartiality or logic.

You just argued something that had nothing to do with my post.

There is a video. It shows thousands of containers of explosives. The video was taken after U.S. military arrival. Ventilation shafts/locked doors have no bearing on that reality.