So who do you think won the third debate?

[Mephisto2]

I'm not asking who you think is currently winning the race, or even who you think will win the Presidency.

I just want to know who you thought actually won this third Presidential debate?

[Asuka{eve}]

I think Kerry won the debate. I thought Bush strayed from the topic a lot. Lots of hilarious moments .

[Sun Tzu]

It disgusts me that other candidates weren't allowed to debate. 2 football teams play a game; it doesn’t matter who wins, the NFL makes its money either way. I watched the debates, although I really can’t say why.

[Locke7]

I watched, and I realized I really wasted my time. I realized that the debate really didn't matter. It's sort of like lawn signs. I drive to work every morning and see hundreds of lawn signs. When I see them I don't think, oh yeah, check out that lawn sign, I think I'll vote for him. Same with the debate. It's not like either of them really said anything. They stuck with their platforms, and that was it.

I suggest going to the party websites and looking at the platform. You know what you believe in. Vote that way.

[onetime2]

Bush clearly came across as engaging, knowledgeable, and sincere.

In the end, of course, it only matters what the undecideds feel though.

[Mephisto2]

Originally Posted by onetime2

Bush clearly came across as engaging, knowledgeable, and sincere.

In the end, of course, it only matters what the undecideds feel though.

Engaging? Yes.
Sincere? Yes, more or less.
Knowledgable? I don't think so.

And you're absolutely right that it entirely depends upon the undecided.

Mr Mephisto

[SecretMethod70]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

It disgusts me that other candidates weren't allowed to debate. 2 football teams play a game it doesn’t matter who wins the NFL makes its money either way. I watched the debates, although I really can’t say why.

Same.

I think they both sucked and dodged way too many questions.

[maximusveritas]

CBS poll results:
Kerry 39
Bush 25

ABC poll:
Kerry 42
Bush 41
(with 38% Republicans and only 30% Democrats)

Looks like a convincing win to me.

[Rodney]

Originally Posted by maximusveritas

CBS poll results:
Kerry 39
Bush 25

ABC poll:
Kerry 42
Bush 41
(with 38% Republicans and only 30% Democrats)

Looks like a convincing win to me.

Note that the CBS poll was of undecided voters only. Although it's a good snapshot of what's happening in that small (18 percent of total voters) but pivotal group.

[jonjon42]

I don't trust the polls all that much in this election. The democrats are really working hard to energize the base to cast a vote against Bush. I'm just waiting for the election to deicde.
oh and btw, anyone but Bush 2004..oh except for the constitutional party canidate...those are the people that come out of my closet of anxiety

now back on topic...
Kerry won but barely, Bush failed to win with most of his jokes, and he didn't come off as the most knowledgeable canidate (I apologize for my spellling)

[maximusveritas]

Originally Posted by Rodney

Note that the CBS poll was of undecided voters only. Although it's a good snapshot of what's happening in that small (18 percent of total voters) but pivotal group.

Yep and I think that makes it even more important.

Here's another poll from CNN/Gallup:

Kerry 52
Bush 39

[LewisCouch]

Rather than critique other posters comments, I would like to answer the question as objectively as possible. I believe that Kerry is a superior debater---as well he should be, he does it for a living. Bush is definitely not a debater, however, this evening he held his own. Discovering the truth and utlimately declaring a winner based on each candidates combined use of facts, rhetoric and oblique statistics, is very difficult.

I call this one a tie just because they behaved themselves!

[tom12]

Kerry is just promising and promising but he's promising way more than he can deliver especially if he wants to reduce the defecit even if he repeals the tax cuts, maybe he did win but he just keeps promising things he cannot give

[xepherys]

Kerry came out a bit ahead in my opinion. I disliked his stand on affirmative action, but otherwise I agree with much of what he said. I don't care much for him, but I'm surely torn between he and Badnarik. Bush is just no good!

[MSD]

Bush pissed me off a bit less during what I did hear. My train was late so I missed most of it.

[pan6467]

Originally Posted by tom12

Kerry is just promising and promising but he's promising way more than he can deliver especially if he wants to reduce the defecit even if he repeals the tax cuts, maybe he did win but he just keeps promising things he cannot give

That's politics and human nature for any job. I think the American people will be happy if he gets half of what he talks about through Congress.

Bush made lots of promises and still does and he hasn't done jack about them.

Politicians say what they believe the people want to hear, and I truly believe in most cases they try their hardest to do what they say. But more often than not it is unobtainable to achieve everything and the majority of people know this but they vote on the whole picture and what they believe the candidate CAN DO and NOT on what he says he can do..

[OpieCunningham]

Originally Posted by tom12

Kerry is just promising and promising but he's promising way more than he can deliver especially if he wants to reduce the defecit even if he repeals the tax cuts, maybe he did win but he just keeps promising things he cannot give

Yes, I agree. They're both promising things they will either have a difficult time fulfilling or will be unable to fulfill.

The difference is, Bush is promising that if we just keep on keepin' on, things will get really damn good in the next 4 years. Kerry is promising that if we change things, things will get really damn good in the next 4 years.

But Bush has already had 4 years and things got really damn worse. In some cases, due to events which were out of his initial control, but his responses have been demonstrated to fail.

The logical decision is to change course.


The one thing in this debate which was finally vocalized, even though it was asked 3 times in a previous debate - how do both candidates promise to cut the deficit in half while Bush has shown a propensity to over spend and Kerry also intends to spend? FINALLY Kerry answered that question with the unstated truth: both expect their future actions to create a turn-around in the economy. (Well, Kerry didn't state that this is what Bush expected, but clearly there is no other logical explanation for why Bush would believe he could cut the deficit in half).

Again - Bush has been promising that almost daily for the last 3 years. Simply based on the fact that there IS a question on how he expects to cut the deficit is to demonstrate that he has failed to enact any initiatives in the past 3 years which have had any ability to move the country in the direction he continues to promise.

Time for new blood.

[omega2K4]

Bush got his ass smoked...again.

[bernadette]

Bush made me want to slap him silly with each & every smirky face he made (pretty much all throughout the entire debate).

Kerry is a much better speaker, sounds intelligent, answers questions. He could represent our country in a more dignified manner than the current gaffing buffoon. Bush is a sad disgusting joke all around the the world.

[quicksteal]

I hated the faces Bush was making, but I hated the words Kerry was saying. Kerry refuses to admit that his healthcare plan (while it comes off as wonderful) is way too expensive, and his campaign is afraid to crunch the numbers themselves. And I loved how Kerry completely ignored the "flu shot" question, and implicitly blamed Bush for there not being enough vaccine. Personally, I like him less each time I see him.

I must be way right-wing, because I thought Bush won handily (despite his eerie perkiness).

[Rdr4evr]

I thought Kerry ripped him a new one in this debate as he did in the previous two. Bush once again did not answer any questions directly and made one too many jokes. He did not come off serious, but rather his same arrogant monkey self. Kerry on the other hand came off as intelligent and serious about issues. Although I would like more explanation to how he will achieve the things he says he is going to achieve, he still seems like the better man for the job.

[trickyy]

as usual, most of the questions didn't elicit much more than the token responses. i thought bush started off pretty well but soon they were equally boring. sometimes they presented repeat arguments in the same 4 parts as before.

kerry finally talked about "his faith" as he called it in the most non-offensive way possible. for many christians, abortion is the only issue in this campaign. it's kind of weird. kerry's stance on the death penalty and the war are actually closer to the catholic church's position than bush. and you could say his concern for the poor is a bit more altruistic. yet abortion is the singular deciding factor for a large demographic of religious people.

seems like neither of these guys can pay for what they are talking about. there is a serious shortage of money and soldiers, but both seem to be making hard promises about the uncertain future. bush did a nice job of increasing government spending and decreasing tax revenue, and kerry's heathcare plan has a budget of around a trillion. bad time for baby boomers to retire.

too bad they don't allow the other candidates to debate. at least it would liven things up. those guys were arrested trying to get into the st louis debate.

[Chemical Smoo]

I think Bush sounded much better then he did in his past debates... that said, I also enjoy hearing more "good" info on the Kerry campaign. He is clearing up a ton of things that I questioned. I like Kerry, but think Bush had the better debate here (didnt beat Kerry, just looked better due to his last debates, if that make sense).

[connyosis]

Kerry won convincingly. I think he answered the questions very well. Bush on the other hand tried to be funny every question, smirking like a moron, and how many times did he mention the no child left behind act?! Seriously, like three four times he totally strayed off topic and went on about education. He seemed not very prepared compared to Kerry. If people are going to trust and like the US again, Kerry has to be elected. People just don't listen to Bush anymore. (Outside the US that is)

[onetime2]

Questions for Kerry:

If you "fixed" Social Security in "1990 something" then why is it still a big issue with no one in their right minds believing it will be solvent when the baby boomers hit the system fully?

If you "fixed" affirmative action, why is it still a big issue?

How will access to the "Congressional" medical insurance programs solve a vaccine supply issue?

How will repealing the Bush tax cuts on the "wealthy" pay for increased Pell grants, medical insurance for everyone, cut the deficit in half in five years, increase funding for education, create a manufacturing jobs credit, extending healthcare benefits to those who are unemployed, extend unemployment benefits, lower corporate taxes by 5 percent, create a job hiring credit, create a "fair trade playing field for the American worker, have the federal government take over Medicare children from the states, allow people aged 55 to 64 to buy into Medicare early, give small businesses a 50% tax credit to offer health benefits, increase funding to Social Security, give the middle class a tax cut, improve port and border security, crack down on illegal hiring of immigrants, and add two active duty divisions to the armed forces? There is no chance that these added programs and expenses can be covered by raising the taxes on the "wealthy" who have the resources to avoid most of the taxes imposed on them.

How does redeploying the National Guard and Reserves within America for Homeland Security unstretch our forces?

[stevo]

Did anyone notice that spit in the corner of bush's mouth? It was there for like half of the debate. I guess that goes to prove that he didn't have an earpiece in telling him what to say. If he did they probably would have told him to wipe his mouth, but then maybe they didn't want to say anything for fear that he might repeat it to kerry.

[Kadath]

Originally Posted by onetime2

Questions for Kerry:

If you "fixed" Social Security in "1990 something" then why is it still a big issue with no one in their right minds believing it will be solvent when the baby boomers hit the system fully?

They generated a surplus that could have served to patch the hole in the transitional period they discussed. That money went into the huge tax cut.

Originally Posted by onetime2

How will repealing the Bush tax cuts on the "wealthy" pay for increased Pell grants, medical insurance for everyone, cut the deficit in half in five years, increase funding for education, create a manufacturing jobs credit, extending healthcare benefits to those who are unemployed, extend unemployment benefits, lower corporate taxes by 5 percent, create a job hiring credit, create a "fair trade playing field for the American worker, have the federal government take over Medicare children from the states, allow people aged 55 to 64 to buy into Medicare early, give small businesses a 50% tax credit to offer health benefits, increase funding to Social Security, give the middle class a tax cut, improve port and border security, crack down on illegal hiring of immigrants, and add two active duty divisions to the armed forces? There is no chance that these added programs and expenses can be covered by raising the taxes on the "wealthy" who have the resources to avoid most of the taxes imposed on them.

"There's more to a plan than a laundry list of complaints." -- Bush
You're right, you know. Just rolling back the tax cuts won't pay for all those things. Also, the new argument that taxing the rich is futile because they can avoid the tax is the full on batshit craziest thing I have ever heard come out of a President's mouth. WTF? We shouldn't tax the rich because they avoid it? Fuck that, enforce the tax.

Originally Posted by onetime2

How does redeploying the National Guard and Reserves within America for Homeland Security unstretch our forces?

Well, primarily, it's a lot easier to rotate home to Dallas from Laredo than from Iraq. National Guard troops could work in their own state.

[^Ice_Bat^]

Originally Posted by Mr Mephisto

Engaging? Yes.
Sincere? Yes, more or less.
Knowledgable? I don't think so.

And you're absolutely right that it entirely depends upon the undecided.

Mr Mephisto

Bush is very knowledgeable. It's a shame the news media portrays him like they do. And it's a shame that people are bias cause they are democrat.

[splck]

I'm no democrat, but with respect, Bush doesn’t come off as the least bit knowledgeable. I fail to see how anyone could view that man as knowledgeable, regardless of what the media says or doesn't say.
Kerry was the clear winner in my view.

[JBX]

Nov 2 will decide who won the debates. Nuff Said

[ARTelevision]

As before, I will not look at this thing called "debating" in terms of a wrestling match. It cheapens the whole enterprise - and presents us as a peanut gallery rather than a population of thoughtful individual voters.

Last night's discussion of the issues was a good thing. I have an idea that our current politicalization is a good thing as well. It is far better to be thinking about the issues as covered than to be "debating" about who won or lost the encounter.

[KMA-628]

My Vote: even

You did get to see Bush at his best when he answered the question about his wife and daughters. That is where some of the appeal to the man comes from. He came across as real and genuine. If he could've handled the entire debate in that manner, he would have won hands down. (Side Note: My wife was pretty pissed at Kerry for pretty much snubbing his wife during that question) I thought it was a good question that showed the candidates as people instead of personas.

/The one thought that did pop in my head during the entire debate was that Kerry was writing a lot of checks that he isn't going to be able to cash.

[scout]

I guess you can say Kerry "won", he sure promised everything to everyone. I just wonder how he plans to pay for all his promises? With enlistments into the armed services down where is he going to get the manpower for two more divisions? Kerry just made me more scared to vote for him with all these promises and his "plan" that he never gives any detail about other than he has a "plan". I think all his promises and plans make him sound desperate. Bush for the most part just looked like a whipped dog, the last 4 years has certainly taken it's toll, which given his position and all the happenings that's certainly understandable. The one bright spot in his life is most surely his family, that was evident at the end.

[Mephisto2]

Originally Posted by ARTelevision

As before, I will not look at this thing called "debating" in terms of a wrestling match. It cheapens the whole enterprise - and presents us as a peanut gallery rather than a population of thoughtful individual voters.

Last night's discussion of the issues was a good thing. I have an idea that our current politicalization is a good thing as well. It is far better to be thinking about the issues as covered than to be "debating" about who won or lost the encounter.

Yes, but it's fun.

Alternatively, you could reword the question like "Who do you think did better?"

:-)


Mr Mephisto

[onetime2]

Originally Posted by Kadath

They generated a surplus that could have served to patch the hole in the transitional period they discussed. That money went into the huge tax cut.

"There's more to a plan than a laundry list of complaints." -- Bush
You're right, you know. Just rolling back the tax cuts won't pay for all those things. Also, the new argument that taxing the rich is futile because they can avoid the tax is the full on batshit craziest thing I have ever heard come out of a President's mouth. WTF? We shouldn't tax the rich because they avoid it? Fuck that, enforce the tax.

Well, primarily, it's a lot easier to rotate home to Dallas from Laredo than from Iraq. National Guard troops could work in their own state.

Alright Mr Kerry. It obviously wasn't fixed if it's an issue. Fixing something only to repair it again and again and again until there is more Bondo than metal is not fixing it. It doesn't work. Try something else. The money did not go into the "huge tax cut" because the tax cut didn't happen until after 2000 and this "fix" happened in "1990 something".

The "surplus" amounted to several years of a couple of hundred billion dollars in excess. The debt was what? Kerry's $5.6 trillion figure is as ludicrous as his belief that the Bush tax cut on the wealthy can pay for everything.

The reason the government can't "enforce" the tax laws is the many loopholes inherent in every law, the relatively few enforcement officials the government can employee, the multitude of highly paid professionals from CPAs to lawyers who make a living from exploiting every possible loophole, and, of course, the years of litigation necessary for many of such enforcement actions.

And, lastly, the troops can not just rotate home for "work" since they're "working" at Homeland Security. Unless of course he is proposing some deranged sort of National Guard/civilian employment timeshare which would almost certainly lead to decreased productivity in both occupations.

[Kadath]

All right, onetime. What is YOUR solution to fix Social Security?

"The reason the government can't "enforce" the tax laws is the many loopholes inherent in every law, the relatively few enforcement officials the government can employee, the multitude of highly paid professionals from CPAs to lawyers who make a living from exploiting every possible loophole, and, of course, the years of litigation necessary for many of such enforcement actions."

I don't think throwing up our hands and saying we can't force the rich to pay taxes is very useful. Again, what's your plan? Shouldn't we be trying to collect the money owed us?

"And, lastly, the troops can not just rotate home for "work" since they're "working" at Homeland Security. Unless of course he is proposing some deranged sort of National Guard/civilian employment timeshare which would almost certainly lead to decreased productivity in both occupations."

I don't know how open your mind is to this idea given that you described it as "deranged." Perhaps we had better just not argue about that one.

[Jesus Pimp]

It wasn't as funny as the first 2 debates. The only funny thing Bush said this debate was if you've become unemployed you should go to community college.

[onetime2]

Originally Posted by Kadath

All right, onetime. What is YOUR solution to fix Social Security?

"The reason the government can't "enforce" the tax laws is the many loopholes inherent in every law, the relatively few enforcement officials the government can employee, the multitude of highly paid professionals from CPAs to lawyers who make a living from exploiting every possible loophole, and, of course, the years of litigation necessary for many of such enforcement actions."

I don't think throwing up our hands and saying we can't force the rich to pay taxes is very useful. Again, what's your plan? Shouldn't we be trying to collect the money owed us?

"And, lastly, the troops can not just rotate home for "work" since they're "working" at Homeland Security. Unless of course he is proposing some deranged sort of National Guard/civilian employment timeshare which would almost certainly lead to decreased productivity in both occupations."

I don't know how open your mind is to this idea given that you described it as "deranged." Perhaps we had better just not argue about that one.

The way we fix it is by forcing the government to clean their accounting house. The baby boomers paid into social security and were promised support for when they retired. Our wonderful elected officials saw a pristine piggy bank overflowing with cash. While they have not yet failed to follow through on their guarantee to those who paid in, there is virtually no one who believes it can remain as is.

I am intrigued by the idea of taking some money out to "invest" and earn a return on but don't believe that is the sole answer (it may not even be one that I would support since I am bothered by the risk associated with it). That risk is mitigated however by the growing likelihood that our government will not address the problem in a significant way and they will either fail to pay the seniors they owe or that money will go straight to national debt.

Prioritization of expenditures is long overdue in the federal government. Do we need another Big Dig or do we need to meet our committments to the elderly? Do we need to fund more pharmaceutical research or do we need to insure that our seniors can eat or have a roof over their heads?

The solution is simple but the follow through for it is virtually impossible in the current political climate. Voters expect politicians to lie to them and to spend too much of their money. They've come to accept it and that's what we need to change.

On the private side, we need to do more to encourage retirement savings so social security isn't the primary income for most retirees. A lot has been done in this area (401ks, IRAs, etc) but more can be done. Tax cuts which only apply if the refunds are directly deposited into retirement savings accounts that can't be touched until retirement would certainly contribute toward that end.

As far as the National Guard and Reserves, you're right my mind isn't open to the idea because it does not address the supposed concern that Kerry has of our military being too stretched. Taking them from one area of responsibility and putting them in another doesn't alleviate the strain. Throw in the prospect of working at both a civilian job and working off your military commitment and you're talking about more of a stretch, not less.

[mikeroch]

To everyone who believes all the shit Kerry is promising all I have to say is get your head out of your ass! He hasn't done anything in 20 years in the senate but raise taxes. His vice presidential candidate is a trial lawyer with barely any political experience. All this Bush bashing is ridiculous, he came into office during a recession and having to deal with 9/11. We'd be in much worse shape if Kerry was in office. We were never gonna get rid of Saddam with the help of the UN cause they were being paid off by Saddam with money from the Oil-for-food program. Even if you don't like Bush try and make a smart comment at least. Hopefully we'll never have to see Kerry in office or we're all screwed!

[Kalibah]

Those for Bush saw a Bush Win.
Those for Kerry saw a Kerry Win.
Those undecided were watching the Cardnials