for Palestine - Bush or Kerry is same old S#@!
 

Seriously guys when asked about the question of MiddleEast Peace - In an attempt to woo the Zionist Money-throwing looby Edwards spoke as if it was Palestinians occupying the homeland of the Israelis,and not the reverse.

The Israeili Zionists are bringing down Palestinian homes and have killed thousands of palestinian chlidren - and are going about it nearly every day and this stupid talks about some frustrated terrorist killing five Israeli children.

Bush or Kerry when it comes to foreign policy its the same old shit in a different person.

--Kaju

yeah...'cause that's a stereotype that hasn't caused any problems, death, destruction, or despair.

Thousands of Palestinian children killed every day, eh? Okay, I'll bite. Show me the evidence, please. I want pictures/movies of all those corpses. And no, 70 dead Palestinians in the last week (including *armed militants*, I might add) does not a thousand make.

I suggest you do some research into a subject before posting here; otherwise, you should start a thread in Tilted Paranoia.

Point taken dragonlich - I just edited my statement - so its not thousands every day - may bad.

now what is your point ?

martin : do you disagree that there is a tremendous influence of teh Zionist Jewish lobby in US politcs.


Also Zionism is a very broad, umbrella term. Like the words democracy or communism, it is word without a single concrete meaning, and its use requires clarification. When I write about Zionism , I am talking about its modern, present-day incarnation, which has very little in common with the word s original use---that is, a word used to describe simply the movement among Jews to re-settle in Israel. Rather, I am talking about Zionism as the ideological basis for an imperialist, expansionist State of Israel, embodied by military occupation of the West Bank/Gaza/Golan Heights/Sinai/Southern Lebanon, ethnic cleansing of indigenous peoples, house demolitions, settlement expansion, the torture of political prisoners, and the systematic disruption of Palestinian society.


--Kaju

it is a shame that a thread on this important political topic was framed so poorly.

The Palestinians are getting royally screwed by Israel, and the US government seems quite happy to support the human rights abuses being committed by the Israelis. When are the voters going to actually force the government to represent them, rather than pigs like Cheney. I have never met an American who doesn't think Bush is a moron.

You know, this thread reminds me of something I saw on the BBC the other day.

They were reporting the casualty figures of the current Israeli incursion, talking about some 70 Palestinian deaths. Now, from other reports (also from the BBC) I know that this figure includes armed militants (as I stated above). I just wonder how many of those 70 dead are actually innocent civilians... 5? 10? 50? They don't say; all they say is 70 deaths. Furthermore, I saw footage of Palestinian civilians staying in the area where militants were firing from, even taking a look at the Israeli soldiers - and then they are upset when some of them get hurt or killed???

If we look at the total casualties from the whole conflict, I again have to wonder how many of those casualties are civilians, and how many are armed militants killed in combat. What about the countless Palestinian "traitors" killed by Palestinian extremists - are they included? And the Palestinian terrorists/martyrs, or the leaders of terror groups killed by Israel, are they included?

In short: how many of those "thousands of Palestinian children" (vast overstatement, by the way!) Kaju mentions are actually innocent civilians killed by the Israeli army, and how many were militants killed in combat?

Notice the way I say "Israeli army" instead of Jews or Zionists; That's because it's the Israeli army that's doing the killing, not the Jews in general, nor the Zionists in general. There are many Zionists who would like the Palestinians to live in peace, and there are many Jews that aren't in any way connected to this whole mess; that includes me, a *Dutch* Jew, without any connection whatsoever to the Israeli army, and not at all happy with the whole situation.

So Kajy, I guess my point would be that your whole post is, to put it mildly, a bit biased. You seem to be very much opposed to the Israelis/Zionist, and I feel that opposition might be distorting your ability to look at the situation objectively. When I look at your post, I get the feeling that you think that Israeli casualties aren't important, but Palestinians are - that's rather strange, don't you think?

Wow, this thread really ought to be taken around back and shot to put it out of it's misery.

But, the topic does have potential.

Let's try this.

If you assume for the sake of argument that either party can be easily bought, here's how to handle it:
There are laws that regulate who can give money to presidential campaigns, and how much who can give. Even assuming that zionists gave money as a group, you can bet that if "the jewish lobby" had broken these laws the other political party would have made a big issue out of it. "The palestinian lobby" is free to give money to either campaign as well, just like "the Jewish lobby," so long as it does so legally.

Americans don't want foreign citizens giving alot of money to their presidential candidates, and so the money from the "jewish lobby" came from Jews living in the United States. Palestinians living in the United States are just as free to donate to either campaign as Jews are. There just happens to be alot more Jewish people living in the United states with money to spend on donations to presidential campaigns.

So that must explain it! If the Palestinians would stop blowing themselves up and instead move to America and make alot of money so that they could give money to presidential candidates, America would change its viewpoints!

Well, it's not that simple.
Americans identify with Isreal, and will in the foreseeable future as far as I can tell. This is the case for a variety of reasons:
1. Like I said, more jews live here than Arabs.
2. There are some fundamental Christians that view zionism as a step toward the return of Jesus, and therefore want to encourage the Israel and the creation of a temple.
3. Israelis aren't known for hijacking planes, suicide bombings, cutting off innocent civilians' heads, or shooting at U.S. troops
4. Israel is seen as an underdog surrounded by the same enemies as the United Staes has, and has done well militarily against them throughout its short history.
5. Israel is one of the only counties in the region that does not want to see, or at least is not full of people that want to see the United States weakened.
6. Israel had the balls to attack nuclear plants when we did not in the mid 1980's, and had the balls to not attack when scud missiles were launched at it in the early 1990's.
7. The behavior of Yassir Arafat in the peace negotiations did not help the palestinian cause much.

Because of these reasons, the United States can forgive the occasional spying, and is not likely to change it's position and condemn Israel, well, do anything more than "condemn" Israel in the near future. You should also be aware, though, that Bush supports a separate Palestinian state, and I think he's the first American president to have said so. Still, you should expect the United States to continue to support Israel, for the reasons I have stated and more, and not because the jewish lobby gives more money.

The Israelis want nothing more than for Palestine to live in peace and do it's own thing. The Israeli Army attempts missions to kill terrorists, and innocents are sometimes mistakenly killed. The Palestinian Army, aka Terrorists supported by Arafat, carries out missions to kill civilians and as many as possible. There's a distinct difference.

Once the Palestinians have a leader that's willing to atleast try and crack down on terrrorism they could have peace.

Israeli occupation is a result of Palestinian terrorism and it's a vicious cycle, neither side is right and neither I or you has the solution but try to look at both sides please.

It is interesting that you complain of media bias, I remember that on the Day when Sharon was swiftly executing the massacre in Jenin http://www.nauseamanifesto.com/jenin/
both BBC and CNN headlines read about a blast which killed Israeili soldiers for the whole day while the alternate Media was crying about this Massacre.

Not that that act of Suicide bombing was unimportant but where is teh other bit of teh news ??

and NO I dont mean that the life of Jews is any less worthy than the life of a Palestinian, Human Life according to what I beleive in is most sacred - who ever it may be.

What I want to highlight is the gross mis-representation and manipulation of public perception of the issue by the media and the US Govt. and its contribution to the plight of the Palestinian cause. See

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/busin...242833,00.html
http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article3163.shtml

It is important for the guardians of the status quo to control the boundaries of debate and they have used the media as effectively as it can be used for their benifit. The Common Americans as a result think that its the palestinians oppressing Israel and not the other way round.

For the conflict to end first and foremost the world should recognize that

1) Israel is the Oppressor
2) Settle the issue in UN with international intervention

This in itself will help ease the problem with Suicide Bombers who are frustrated palentinians in a deranged state of mind who cant see any other end to the conflict - especially when they are on the weaker end of an unimaginably imbalanced conflict in terms of power, and to top that when everyone is asking them to stop terrorizing Israel.

++++++

An Anology

+++++++

To drive my point home imagine some new Dynamics in the World say in year 2100:

China is the most powerful Nation on Earth followed by its favorite ally Japan. US has lost its infuence and is as powerful as Tibet was in 2004 and has split into 20 small powerless countires.

The Red Indians of America have become a succesful business community all around the world especially in China.

Majority of Red Indians beleive in what their scripture says : It promises them land of Redrael ( present Texas) as they onced lived in Texas 2000 years ago.

They start gradually settling in Texas and then declare the formation of the state of Redrael with the backing of China and Japan. They kick out most Texas and expand their borders on Military might they continue demolishing homes of Texan Americans living for generations in Dallas Houston and Austin.

Redrael - thanks to China has the best Armed forces and Militart Might and technolgy for warfare in 2100.

The Texan Cowboys are poor and Neighbours of Texas are in no position to defend as America has split into 20 different independant countries, If a Cowboy resists the Red Indian occupation of Texas, he will be killed or at best will be branded a Terrorist by the world due to Chineese/Red Indian control of the Media.

Texans form Texas Liberation Organization which is termed as a Terrorist group by China.

Some Deranged Texans dont see an end to this conflict and start blowing themselves up in Red Indian Colonies their group is called as the Cowboys Martyrs Brigade.

China says that Texans Freedom fighters are among the worlds worst terrorists and they should stop terrorizing poor old peace loving Redrael.

++++++ End of Analogy ++++++

In his book Memoirs of an Anti-Zionist Jew, Elmer Berger discusses the influence of Zionists in American society and how this extends to the media:

Whether they always fully understand what they are doing or not, there are always well-placed Zionists or pro-Zionists in most American communities. And in most of these communities there are Zionist or pro-Zionist organizations. The State of Israel and the Zionist organizations here have large stables of authorities always at the ready to fill a speaking engagement at anything from a country barbecue to a state banquet. Press-coverage, often extending to radio and television time, is a usual dividend of the main event. The cumulative effect of much of this?contributes to the mentality of the American people. p. 61

I repeat i have nothing aginst Peace loving Jews : I frequently keep up with their activities.

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/
http://www.nkusa.org/

Thanks,

Kaju

I don't know. Israel's got a peace treaty with both Jordan and Egypt, and they are the ones from which Israel took land. So it's not really an occupation issue. More of a humantarian thingie: people dying in the streets, etc.
I think Israel is just as much a victim as the Palestinians in this regard. Probably more, seeing as every time Israel makes a concession, it gets this huge blast somewhere in mid-Tel Aviv.

(Just in: Dozens of Israelis dead in an attack on tourists in Egypt. This is what I'm talking about.)

The issue IS Ocupation no matter what you say ask any palestinian - I challenge anyone who supports Israel to spend three days as a Palestinian commoner and see what its all about !!

Israeli concession ?? Its only there if you are a Mainstream media fan :

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarti...07&ItemID=6370

There is no genuine concession and hence no end to the pain ; I am not condoning teh henious act of bombings but seriously - What would it take for you to blow yourself up.

I think pure desperation :

And I dont think its religion ; Actually the first I heard of active suicide bombings as a weapon was from the guerillas of Sril Lankan LTTE ( A Hindu Group ) in the 1980's much before any Palestinian did it.

--Kaju

Come on people – you have ignored the fact that Israel is illegally occupying land that belongs to Palestine - They have built illegal settlements, built a massive wall on occupied land, destroyed date trees and other cash crops which stops people earning a living etc. It is interesting to not that America does everything possible to stop sanctions against Israel to make them obey international law. By allowing one country to ignore international law like this helps breed despair and anger which leads to terrorism – or freedom fighters depending on your point of view. The law must apply equally to all – when it doesn’t it always leads to death, despair, destruction, murder, hatred and war.

Arc101,

While I'm sympathetic to the suffering of the Palestinians, I wonder why the Arabs can mobilize en masse to demonstrate against the suffering of a few million Palestinians while ignoring the larger, more complex issues in their own backyards. It seems to me that the Arab governments (corrupt) and media (sensalitionalist) have conspired against the Arab people to divert their attention away from their own failings. When I hear an Arab lamenting the suffering of the Palestinains, I cannot take their outrage at face value when their own societies are so lacking in them. It just befuddles the mind to witness such a straw man tactic work on so many! It reminds me of the debate about gay marriage in America.

"The secret key to the American Presidential election is who can most subtly express their contempt for minorities, blacks in the 60s, latinos in the 90s, and gays in the 21st century."

Gore Vidal.

I'll say it again: THIS IS NOT ABOUT AN OCCUPATION.
All the land that was illegally taken has been either returned to or given up by the side that lost the land. There was no such place called Palestine between 1948 and 1967. There was Egypt, Israel and Jordan. Since the Israeli occupation, both Egypt and Jordan have normalized their relationships with Israel and gave up on this land (well, Sinai was passed on to the Egyptians).

When synagogues were attacked last year in Turkey, it became clear to anyone with a sense of ration and a grasp of geopolitics that this was NOT about an occupation. Did those Turkish Jews invade a Palestinian home-land? Did those Jews take Palestinian homes? So why were they attacked? What was their crime other than being Jewish?

If you are still not convinced, read this article: http://www.palestinefacts.org/what_occupation.html
While an opinion is presented there, the article follows facts. Lots of them. Read the facts, do your own backround checks, and then draw your own conclusions. I challenge anyone who has read that article to come with a decent explaination as to why he still thinks that this conflict is about an Israeli occupation. It simply isn't.

The most dangerous enemy of the Palestinean people is their own corrupt Government, who refuses to negotiate for a real peace. The sooner they realize this themselves and demand new leadership, the better off they will be. Until then, they will continue to wallow in their own self-made purgatory. Nobody else cares, and no one else is strong enough to do anything about it.

There are people in the United States that think the Jews are God's chosen people and that we have to do everything in our power to help them... and oddly enough, we don't lock these people up in mental institutions. Palestine is pretty much screwed.

You are right not only on the part of some Palestinian's regarding the above, but if you try hard enough or not at all, you will see the same applies to the Jews as well. Victimhood is alive and well on both sides of the fence because it keeps things mainstream.

If you're out of the loop like Nigeria, Sierra Leone etc,...that's when no one gives a shit. Those people should hire some consultants to tell them how to be as successful as the Arabs and the Jews at war. Then atleast they too can afford the all the military and monetary perks of killing each other to no avail.

Doesn't really bother me. More air for me to breathe

red indians? eh really are you trying to alienate people who might otherwise agree with you kaju?

seriously...combined with stereotyping of american Jews....such racism has the potential to undercut the very important work of creating a just peace for the palestinian and israeli people.

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com

Good site and makes me happy their are good Jews out there speaking out against the so-called 'Jews' of Israel who persecute non-Jews.

Who are the "so-called 'Jews' of Israel"?

How are they different from other Jews?

Until this situation is addressed by our country in a truly unbiased manner, I am afraid but Al-Queda, or others like it, will continue to have ammo to recruit and find reason to try and sabatoge the US.

Until all the major Arab players concede that Israel can exist, I don't see this happening.

It is a double edged sword b/c they will not concede that a true Palestinian state can exist. Israel is the rulers of Palestine and they do not provide them with the daily necessities a government should, so they turn to the ones that do, Hamas. I agree that Arafat needs to be replaced but it is not as simple as black and white in regards to this. We need to ask, "why is the US so heavily involved?" If the answer in any way revolves around oil than I think we should rethink our policy. If it is truly our desire to protect Israel, than where is our desire to protect the people of Sudan today, etc.? This is the impression Arabs get today. They see through the facade and corruption. We support Saudi Arabia, nowhere near a free government yet we overthrow Saddam. If we are to be sucessful, we need to be consistent in our message to the Arab world.

My 2 cents...

Tralls, if the Arabs care so much about protecting the Palestinians from harm, where is *their* desire to protect the (black) people of Sudan today? There were 50,000 Sudanese killed by Arab tribesmen in the past 18 months, yet all the Arabs in the M.E. care about is a few people killed in Palestine. Sounds a bit inconsistent to me...

I could of course point at the anger over the attacks on refugee camps by Lebanese Christians while the Israelis looked on, but the lack of anger over the attacks on refugee camps by the Jordanian army to expel the PLO. Or the anger over the Palestinians in general, but the unwillingness to empty the refugee camps and give them a better live. Or the inconsistent anger over the Palestinians, but not the Kurds. Anger over the Saudi-Arabian govenment, but not the Iranian one. Etc, etc.

I'd say the Arabs should look in the mirror for once, instead of being angry at the West. Contrary to what they think, not all their problems are our fault.

My 3 cents...