Tell me, What does in your heart CHINA look like? - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

jusfeel · 09-12-2004, 06:58 AM

Before you tell me what china looks like in your view, I tell you first my view.
80% people are working their heads off and crying their eyes out to produce the goods used and eaten by the other 20% people who are not working at all and just eat and yell and feel that they are the leaders and devoted to the country. Like nuts, even good people.
For 80% peasants, chinese peasants are leading a life, comparing to today's common lives on earth, which are far below your imagination, they are just like living in African most deserted plain, worse, they live in cage 'cause their hands are tight, they make food which feed whole country people but they dare not eat it as they wish, for one peasant said once:"If I eat one pound, I lose 5 cents" . Today, one cent in china's average city can buy nothing, nothing! Most part of the income of peasant are handed in as tax which are raised at the specific area which are far from the center power in beijing, you know how big china is and how centered power is. When politician say that we allow someone become rich first, till now, I understand that 'someone' is so small group of people like one in million and the gap between rich and poor is saddly that one rich dinner can eat one-life (hopefully 80 years, $30 per year, best guess ) income up to $2400 of a poor peasant in a shining lovely grandeur glorious big hotel.
This is china. This is what china is in my eyes. Talking about the speed , talking about GDP, non-sense! 'Cause you know what, 80% people are suffering , they are still fighting for food, they living in 60s.
Hope not too much shame I revealed to you.
Any comments ? I appreciate.

tecoyah · 09-12-2004, 07:19 AM

Much of this information, I was aware of....to a certain extent. I have often as of late, considered the plight of China, N. Korea, and other Asian regimes. And found myself wondering about the similarities between what is happening in the U.S. right now, and the suffering elsewhere. It would almost seem we are heading towards the same place, from different directions. China is struggling to gain a middle class, and we are watching ours be destroyed.
The "level" of suffering is most certainly far more extreme in the aformentioned areas, but the situations have many parralels.

irateplatypus · 09-12-2004, 07:52 AM

uhh...

i've heard things were this bad in North Korea, but i'd be interested in hearing where you got the facts that helped you form your opinion.

Seaver · 09-12-2004, 08:15 AM

Things are worse in North Korea. They have a military that outnumbers ours, inside their small ass country. Too high of a percentage of their population are full time soldiers, and any college economics major can tell you how expensive on the economy a large military is. While it has good parts of keeping the economy flowing and a steady garanteed job placement if too large it will bleed the country white.

Now take into account N. Korea is closer to a feudal system than our flowing economy. So their pay doesnt cause the economy to grow exponencially (gov. x4 influence), but simply saps the income caused by the agriculture.

China is trying to build a large economy from the top down which doesnt tend to work. They build billion-dollar business centers for McDonalds/etc, but they stand empty because there's no proverbial floor in the mansions. There's no support or well trained people to work in those areas, let alone enough people with enough spare cash to buy processed foods instead of cooking it themselves.

jusfeel · 09-12-2004, 09:27 AM

Some facts about peasants I got it from books which are kinda prohibitted in china. And people who are doing businese usually have the word"Mow the law system has holes, so we can make money". How can china become good? And for future, every good score students are trained to be score gainner who was prepared for U.S. One girl told me , aparently she had made up her mind, "I want my baby an American citizen". How can china become good. And if you come to china, you probabally live in big hotels in big city , Beijing , Shanghai, Shengzhen, or maybe some beautiful place which has gathered huge foreigners to make itself a heaven like Yangshuo. You got wrong idea about china. Think about how big china is. China do have cars. But you know how they use then. They use them so often to go to work, go to food store, everywhere, of course only in big cities. This means that car is far away from marking their living standard. And by the way, for 1.3 billion people, only 40 million cars including agricultral-used cars. I got car information from a policing who taught traffic lessons. How do you feel about this?

charlesesl · 09-12-2004, 10:41 AM

Let me guess. None of you have ever been to China. None of you have ever been out of North America. So where do you guys get the ideas from China. Why, the TV ,internet and a little thing called imagination . It seems funny to me how lies passed around enough times automatically became truth, and how none of you ever question the validity of the mass media.

Anyways, what I was saying is the Chinese Communist Party did pretty well for the last 50 years considering all of the international and domistic problems. China has 1.5 billion people and feeding all of them is a pretty remarkable feat all by itself. Back when the nationalist were in power, many people would starve to death each year. People's living condition have been improving all the time. Sure now you are asking why is it what some people are much richer than other. Well, if any of you have ever taken the time to study China, you will realize that people will higher living are mostly from costal cities. China's economic police for the last 20 year was to concentrate economic developement in the costal areas then use the costal areas to help the economic development of other ritual areas. I wish everybody could get rich at the same time, but that is simply too idealistic. During the initial stages industrialization of any country, a gap will always be created between the rich and poor. Simply having the rich and poor does not mean that the rich is enslaving the poor. If any of you have been to the ritual villages in central china, you will constantly see improvements in their living conditions. I know some of you will ask about human right problems, but democracy in China would hardly work better than it did in India. Giving 1.5 billion people, many of which are still uneducated the power to control their government will spell disterater.

Scipio · 09-12-2004, 11:07 AM

While it would be wonderful if everyone could enjoy western standards of living right now, not everyone is at the same level of development. It's never been that way, it isn't that way now, and it will never be that way. One thing that we can be sure of is that China is growing, and growing fast. This can only benefit its citizens. It's unfortunate that they live in a country that is only slowly entering the 21st century, but they're certainly moving in the right direction.

jusfeel · 09-12-2004, 04:37 PM

Hope I can speak still after I confess I am not from North America. I am saying not welcomed word about china and I was not using 'my country' which I was born and where I am living. I tell you what I think. Maybe it's not right enough, but please it stands on my eyes. When I have money and house and a enjoyable life , I don't need to know the poor living conditions in my country. This is irrisponsible and childish way of living, and I hope I can meet your agreement. Let's talk about the new economy rising point in china. If foreign conmany can't not make huge money, why would they come to china. China has poor legal system. And if you hire domestic people, you pay same amount money to government. Even though, there are businesses like cars. The problem of china now is that they are selling their cheap labor to become cheap labor force. I was boin in 70s. People that time knew that for everything you can make by your own hand. But now, like a big show without confident actor and full of rich business men, no good workers, china is managed in bad management. And the peasant population as 80% of all can be taken as what chinese lives like. If most people are still fighting for a mouthful of food, which you don't believe if you are not in china, it is wrong to spend huge money on something like 2008 olympic game. If you ever come to rural countryside of china, your tears would fall down for there is beyond imagination poor. BUT in this small poor village, you alway can find the richest leader who will take you as father if you come from beijing as a journalist. For democracy, only democrazy here, no one dare understand this word.

Mephisto2 · 09-12-2004, 05:08 PM

Of course you can still speak after "confessing" that you are not from America.

Neither am I, and I celebrate that fact. Not being American does not prevent you from being an active or vocal member of this community. Just look at me!

One thing troubles me though...

Quote:

Some facts about peasants I got it from books which are kinda prohibitted in china.

Well, what books? Ann Coulter writes books, but I think they're a waste of paper. Just because "facts" are written in a book does not make them facts.

Also, how can something be "kinda" banned?

Mr Mephisto

jusfeel · 09-12-2004, 06:26 PM

Not really banned in china. Just not popular. I know what book is. But how can you get information? How can you trust people? You have to trust them after you feel really the same way. They told me that the trouble in my mind is not only trouble, it's disaster for the country. Yes, you always won't tell what death looks like before you are dead. That's the way knowledge makes me feel. You know before you do it. You feel before you believe it. And this is sad to know. I choose to think that the darkness is not made my imagination. I must come from some place. Experience ever told me . I've been some rural areas. I had seen how they treat their babies.Not health, not clean, not safe. Besides, one thing in so many, in a faraway province, young girl was being humiliated and have to walk and scrawl with nothing on under 3 young girils' direction and later she was sold to five boys who raped her. This thing happened in public,in a crowd net bar and on the street, ok, even not a rural countryside. No body speak a word when the girl is in trouble.No body called police. Use your imagination! Think about the rural areas. This news has been broadcast on TV. And the report said one line I rememebered after the show stopped:"None of human". And we are leading 21 century which means truly no happy to me. "Cause I feel after the storiy after story I heard about , HELL. And also you can see one thing from this frightened, hypnotized state of mind: why does chinese fight so stiff in war and why is life so cheap in war? They don't even need guns, powders, canons , or aircrafts. They can just use knives, arrows, sometiems even their teeth to fill their hungrey stomach. And their small head is very easy to become faithful and dreamful. They were simple then they were kind. And you can see why Mao chose peasants to be the force to beat Jiang. And rural place has the essence of living, not life. For suffering the pain, chinese knows well about it. For enjoying life and treating people, chinese is a student. Don't say 5000 civilization. Civilazation is told on man, not the Great Wall, please.

Mephisto2 · 09-12-2004, 06:38 PM

OK, so I'm confused as to the purpose of this thread.

If you are criticising the Chinese leadership, then you are not alone here.

Mr Mephisto

charlesesl · 09-12-2004, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jusfeel

Not really banned in china. Just not popular. I know what book is. But how can you get information? How can you trust people? You have to trust them after you feel really the same way. They told me that the trouble in my mind is not only trouble, it's disaster for the country. Yes, you always won't tell what death looks like before you are dead. That's the way knowledge makes me feel. You know before you do it. You feel before you believe it. And this is sad to know. I choose to think that the darkness is not made my imagination. I must come from some place. Experience ever told me . I've been some rural areas. I had seen how they treat their babies.Not health, not clean, not safe. Besides, one thing in so many, in a faraway province, young girl was being humiliated and have to walk and scrawl with nothing on under 3 young girils' direction and later she was sold to five boys who raped her. This thing happened in public,in a crowd net bar and on the street, ok, even not a rural countryside. No body speak a word when the girl is in trouble.No body called police. Use your imagination! Think about the rural areas. This news has been broadcast on TV. And the report said one line I rememebered after the show stopped:"None of human". And we are leading 21 century which means truly no happy to me. "Cause I feel after the storiy after story I heard about , HELL. And also you can see one thing from this frightened, hypnotized state of mind: why does chinese fight so stiff in war and why is life so cheap in war? They don't even need guns, powders, canons , or aircrafts. They can just use knives, arrows, sometiems even their teeth to fill their hungrey stomach. And their small head is very easy to become faithful and dreamful. They were simple then they were kind. And you can see why Mao chose peasants to be the force to beat Jiang. And rural place has the essence of living, not life. For suffering the pain, chinese knows well about it. For enjoying life and treating people, chinese is a student. Don't say 5000 civilization. Civilazation is told on man, not the Great Wall, please.

You are not really chinese are you?

jusfeel · 09-12-2004, 07:17 PM

I am. I wouldn't lie here 'cause so free, but I just find out My IP kinda been blocked....why..really...can't be...but maybe..here., china....

charlesesl · 09-12-2004, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jusfeel

I am. So I speak well English. But whatever. And I love what I can't reach. I feel what iI can't see. So misleading, but yes, life is this way, misleading, sometimes.

兄弟。农村网吧强奸，你够会编的。
没事干到老外的社区来骂中国人。
你还能算得上中国人吗。

jusfeel · 09-12-2004, 07:26 PM

ha.....You didn't see TV ,right? It's true. I didn't lie.

jusfeel · 09-12-2004, 07:36 PM

Story comes from Guangxi. You can check it by your own. Not countryside incident, it happened in CITY. Five or four boys raped her. They were being judged at once for this is so inhuman and uncoverable.But many other things...which seems to you that you won't believe. I am afraid saddly that I do.

QuasiMojo · 09-12-2004, 07:54 PM

jusfeel- what is Happiness?

jusfeel · 09-12-2004, 10:37 PM

Happiness is that you get to where you want to get and you know what you want to know. To me, I think.

charlesesl · 09-13-2004, 06:23 AM

Another question jusfeel.
If the rich feed on the poor as you have said, then what does that make of you?

jusfeel · 09-13-2004, 04:21 PM

Not only rich, the whole country is fed by the poor, including me.

Zeld2.0 · 09-14-2004, 12:59 AM

Right about now I kinda wish I didn't flunk out of Chinese school early in my life

auswegian · 09-15-2004, 07:53 PM

Quote:

China is trying to build a large economy from the top down which doesnt tend to work. They build billion-dollar business centers for McDonalds/etc, but they stand empty because there's no proverbial floor in the mansions. There's no support or well trained people to work in those areas, let alone enough people with enough spare cash to buy processed foods instead of cooking it themselves.

Someone's never been into a McDonalds in China. I spent two months in Kunming, an agricultural city, and went to McDonalds several times. The staff were as good as any Maccas staff in the West, the food was the same, and it was always packed with people. McDonalds is making millions in China. You don't know what you're talking about.

So much of what you say is gross misrepresentations and exagerrations of the truth. China has many many problems, yes. But the average person there is living better than they have...ever. There is a lot of suffering, true. And the Chinese standard of living is still far below Western standards. But thats because Western standards are stupidly high. China is getting better, and will regain its place in the sun soon enough. Those China-breakers and nay-sayers in the West will be eating their words.

Zeld2.0 · 09-15-2004, 07:58 PM

Similar story auswegian:

A few days ago my mother and father just returned from a 2 week trip to Taiwan and China. They haven't visited China in nearly 10 years and they were absolutely flat out shocked at how much China had changed. Though conditions in rural China are still poor as ever as many, many people are still living the life of a peasant, the conditions in the cities and what one might call "mainstream" China has absolutely skyrocketed.

I hope I get a chance to visit and check it out for myself and the general concensus I find now is that China is growing at a very fast (even alarming) rate and so it may very well be possible that China becomes the next superpower within 20 years and can possibly eclipse the U.S. at its rate now within our own lifetimes.

jusfeel · 09-15-2004, 08:54 PM

I think I need to stop discussing hopeful views about china. It's right to see beautiful things If one is happy, even he just has food to eat when others have car to travel, so what?? But I'd rather see economics fall than to see someone cry. Where are we going, somewhere gold-made?

The Phenomenon · 09-15-2004, 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeld2.0

Similar story auswegian:

A few days ago my mother and father just returned from a 2 week trip to Taiwan and China. They haven't visited China in nearly 10 years and they were absolutely flat out shocked at how much China had changed. Though conditions in rural China are still poor as ever as many, many people are still living the life of a peasant, the conditions in the cities and what one might call "mainstream" China has absolutely skyrocketed.

I hope I get a chance to visit and check it out for myself and the general concensus I find now is that China is growing at a very fast (even alarming) rate and so it may very well be possible that China becomes the next superpower within 20 years and can possibly eclipse the U.S. at its rate now within our own lifetimes.

Im sorry but tourists are no indication of how good life is there.

The overwhelming vast majority of Chinese people are living in absolute complete in-the-gutter poverty. Around the 80% mark if I am not mistaken.

Zeld2.0 · 09-15-2004, 11:42 PM

They aren't exactly tourists given their nationality is just about the same...

And trust me, they've been there a lot (though they are not from there, mother is from Taiwan) - they have many ties there.

Given the 80% population of China is around 800 million people, and that the rest would about equal 2/3 - 5/6 of the U.S. population, that's a HUGE stride from even ten years ago.

And they're expanding fast, very fast.

Chinese friends and relatives all have similar conclusions (yes even those from Taiwan) - I personally will be taking a trip there sometime next summer or perhaps during this winter (though its pretty cold) - i would suggest ya try and take one sometime too.

There is in no way I can take what people say for word as what is there, but when teachers who have taught overseas, relatives, family, close friends, and even people who have little reason to have ties with China are saying its growing and growing fast, I'd probably take their word.

charlesesl · 09-16-2004, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jusfeel

I think I need to stop discussing hopeful views about china. It's right to see beautiful things If one is happy, even he just has food to eat when others have car to travel, so what?? But I'd rather see economics fall than to see someone cry. Where are we going, somewhere gold-made?

So you would rather for everyone to be poor than to have some people to get rich first.

auswegian · 09-16-2004, 07:47 PM

My friend Helen and her parents were at Tiananmen square, and fled China soon after that. However, when her parents made contact with friends in China again, they said that they had left just before it had started getting good.

Sure, there are still many, many people who still live hard lives, especially in the rural areas. But compared to the Maoist era? The Civil War? The Republican era? The Qing dynasty. China's economy and standard of living is progressing faster than it has in the last 200 years. Sure, China could be a lot better. But if you compare China to many other parts of the developing world, it's clear that China could be in a lot worse situation than it is.

And as for tourists not being able to get an indication of true living standards in a country, maybe that's true to an extent. But surely people who've actually been to poor parts of China, as I have, would have a slightly better idea than some armchair economists in the West.

The Phenomenon · 09-16-2004, 10:30 PM

Felt like posting this:

Roger Waters - Watching TV

We were watching TV
In Tiananmen Square
Lost my baby there
My yellow rose
In her bloodstained clothes
She was a short order pastry chef
In a Dim Sum dive on the Yangtze tideway
She had a shiny hair
She was a daughter of an engineer
Won't you shed a tear
For my yellow rose
My yellow rose
In her bloodstained clothes
She had a perfect breasts
She had high hopes
She had almond eyes
She had yellow thighs
She was a student of philosophy
Won't you grieve with me
For my yellow rose
Shed a tear
For her bloodstained clothes
She had shiny hair
She had perfect breasts
She had almond eyes
She had yellow thighs
She was a daughter af an engineer
So get out your pistols
Get out your stones
Get out your knives
Cut them to the bone
They are the lackeys of the grocer's machine
They built the dark satanic mills
That manufacture hell on earth
They bought the front row seats on Calvary
They are irrelevant to me
And I grieve for my sister
People of China
Do not forget do not forget
The children who died for you
Long live the Republic
Did we do anything after this
I've feeling we did
We were watching TV
Watching TV
We were watching TV
Watching TV
She wore a white bandanna that said
Freedom now
She thought the Great Wall of China
Would come tumbling down
She was a student
Her father was an engineer
Won't you shed a tear
For my yellow rose
My yellow rose
In her bloodstained clothes
Her grandpa fought old Chiang Kai-shek
That no-good low-down dirty rat
Who used to order his troops
To fire on women and children
Imagine that imagine that
And in the spring of'48
Mao Tse-tung got quite irate
And he kicked that old dictator Chiang
Out of the state of China
Chiang Kai-shek came down in Formosa
And they armed the island of Quemoy
And the shells were flying across the China Sea
And they turned Formosa into a shoe factory
Called Taiwan
And she is different from Cro-Magnon man
She's different from Anne Boleyn
She is different from the Rosenbergs
And from the unknown Jew
She is different from the unknown Nicaraguan
Half superstar half victim
She's a victor star conceptually new
And she is different from the Dodo
And from the Kankabono
She is different from the Aztec
And from the Cherokee
She's everybody's sister
She's a symbolic of our failure
She's the one in fifty million
Who can help us to be free
Because she died on TV
And I grieve for my sister

Zeld2.0 · 09-16-2004, 11:26 PM

Much more has happened durign the time between Tianamen Square and today...

I don't want to get into some of my family history but I will say that I have roots in the Kuomingtang which fought the communists and the japanese for nearly 20 years, had a great grandmother executed by communists simply for being one of the 'wealthy,' and have had quite a few in my line that were prominent generals during the wars including WW2... and to actually hear that family say how much China has changed is pretty significant in my mind.

09-12-2004, 06:58 AM	#1 (permalink)
jusfeel Upright	Tell me, What does in your heart CHINA look like? Before you tell me what china looks like in your view, I tell you first my view. 80% people are working their heads off and crying their eyes out to produce the goods used and eaten by the other 20% people who are not working at all and just eat and yell and feel that they are the leaders and devoted to the country. Like nuts, even good people. For 80% peasants, chinese peasants are leading a life, comparing to today's common lives on earth, which are far below your imagination, they are just like living in African most deserted plain, worse, they live in cage 'cause their hands are tight, they make food which feed whole country people but they dare not eat it as they wish, for one peasant said once:"If I eat one pound, I lose 5 cents" . Today, one cent in china's average city can buy nothing, nothing! Most part of the income of peasant are handed in as tax which are raised at the specific area which are far from the center power in beijing, you know how big china is and how centered power is. When politician say that we allow someone become rich first, till now, I understand that 'someone' is so small group of people like one in million and the gap between rich and poor is saddly that one rich dinner can eat one-life (hopefully 80 years, $30 per year, best guess ) income up to $2400 of a poor peasant in a shining lovely grandeur glorious big hotel. This is china. This is what china is in my eyes. Talking about the speed , talking about GDP, non-sense! 'Cause you know what, 80% people are suffering , they are still fighting for food, they living in 60s. Hope not too much shame I revealed to you. Any comments ? I appreciate. Last edited by jusfeel; 09-12-2004 at 07:21 AM..

09-12-2004, 07:19 AM	#2 (permalink)
tecoyah Illusionary	Much of this information, I was aware of....to a certain extent. I have often as of late, considered the plight of China, N. Korea, and other Asian regimes. And found myself wondering about the similarities between what is happening in the U.S. right now, and the suffering elsewhere. It would almost seem we are heading towards the same place, from different directions. China is struggling to gain a middle class, and we are watching ours be destroyed. The "level" of suffering is most certainly far more extreme in the aformentioned areas, but the situations have many parralels. __________________ Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

09-12-2004, 07:52 AM	#3 (permalink)
irateplatypus can't help but laugh Location: dar al-harb	uhh... i've heard things were this bad in North Korea, but i'd be interested in hearing where you got the facts that helped you form your opinion. __________________ If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves. ~ Winston Churchill

09-12-2004, 10:41 AM	#6 (permalink)
charlesesl Psycho	Let me guess. None of you have ever been to China. None of you have ever been out of North America. So where do you guys get the ideas from China. Why, the TV ,internet and a little thing called imagination . It seems funny to me how lies passed around enough times automatically became truth, and how none of you ever question the validity of the mass media. Anyways, what I was saying is the Chinese Communist Party did pretty well for the last 50 years considering all of the international and domistic problems. China has 1.5 billion people and feeding all of them is a pretty remarkable feat all by itself. Back when the nationalist were in power, many people would starve to death each year. People's living condition have been improving all the time. Sure now you are asking why is it what some people are much richer than other. Well, if any of you have ever taken the time to study China, you will realize that people will higher living are mostly from costal cities. China's economic police for the last 20 year was to concentrate economic developement in the costal areas then use the costal areas to help the economic development of other ritual areas. I wish everybody could get rich at the same time, but that is simply too idealistic. During the initial stages industrialization of any country, a gap will always be created between the rich and poor. Simply having the rich and poor does not mean that the rich is enslaving the poor. If any of you have been to the ritual villages in central china, you will constantly see improvements in their living conditions. I know some of you will ask about human right problems, but democracy in China would hardly work better than it did in India. Giving 1.5 billion people, many of which are still uneducated the power to control their government will spell disterater. __________________ It did not really matter what we expected from life, but rather what life expected from us. Dr. Viktor E. Frankl

09-12-2004, 11:07 AM	#7 (permalink)
Scipio Mencken Location: College	While it would be wonderful if everyone could enjoy western standards of living right now, not everyone is at the same level of development. It's never been that way, it isn't that way now, and it will never be that way. One thing that we can be sure of is that China is growing, and growing fast. This can only benefit its citizens. It's unfortunate that they live in a country that is only slowly entering the 21st century, but they're certainly moving in the right direction. __________________ "Erections lasting more than 4 hours, though rare, require immediate medical attention."

09-12-2004, 08:15 AM	#4 (permalink)
Seaver Junkie Location: Fort Worth, TX	Things are worse in North Korea. They have a military that outnumbers ours, inside their small ass country. Too high of a percentage of their population are full time soldiers, and any college economics major can tell you how expensive on the economy a large military is. While it has good parts of keeping the economy flowing and a steady garanteed job placement if too large it will bleed the country white. Now take into account N. Korea is closer to a feudal system than our flowing economy. So their pay doesnt cause the economy to grow exponencially (gov. x4 influence), but simply saps the income caused by the agriculture. China is trying to build a large economy from the top down which doesnt tend to work. They build billion-dollar business centers for McDonalds/etc, but they stand empty because there's no proverbial floor in the mansions. There's no support or well trained people to work in those areas, let alone enough people with enough spare cash to buy processed foods instead of cooking it themselves.

09-12-2004, 09:27 AM	#5 (permalink)
jusfeel Upright	Some facts about peasants I got it from books which are kinda prohibitted in china. And people who are doing businese usually have the word"Mow the law system has holes, so we can make money". How can china become good? And for future, every good score students are trained to be score gainner who was prepared for U.S. One girl told me , aparently she had made up her mind, "I want my baby an American citizen". How can china become good. And if you come to china, you probabally live in big hotels in big city , Beijing , Shanghai, Shengzhen, or maybe some beautiful place which has gathered huge foreigners to make itself a heaven like Yangshuo. You got wrong idea about china. Think about how big china is. China do have cars. But you know how they use then. They use them so often to go to work, go to food store, everywhere, of course only in big cities. This means that car is far away from marking their living standard. And by the way, for 1.3 billion people, only 40 million cars including agricultral-used cars. I got car information from a policing who taught traffic lessons. How do you feel about this?

09-12-2004, 04:37 PM	#8 (permalink)
jusfeel Upright	Hope I can speak still after I confess I am not from North America. I am saying not welcomed word about china and I was not using 'my country' which I was born and where I am living. I tell you what I think. Maybe it's not right enough, but please it stands on my eyes. When I have money and house and a enjoyable life , I don't need to know the poor living conditions in my country. This is irrisponsible and childish way of living, and I hope I can meet your agreement. Let's talk about the new economy rising point in china. If foreign conmany can't not make huge money, why would they come to china. China has poor legal system. And if you hire domestic people, you pay same amount money to government. Even though, there are businesses like cars. The problem of china now is that they are selling their cheap labor to become cheap labor force. I was boin in 70s. People that time knew that for everything you can make by your own hand. But now, like a big show without confident actor and full of rich business men, no good workers, china is managed in bad management. And the peasant population as 80% of all can be taken as what chinese lives like. If most people are still fighting for a mouthful of food, which you don't believe if you are not in china, it is wrong to spend huge money on something like 2008 olympic game. If you ever come to rural countryside of china, your tears would fall down for there is beyond imagination poor. BUT in this small poor village, you alway can find the richest leader who will take you as father if you come from beijing as a journalist. For democracy, only democrazy here, no one dare understand this word.

09-12-2004, 06:26 PM	#10 (permalink)
jusfeel Upright	Not really banned in china. Just not popular. I know what book is. But how can you get information? How can you trust people? You have to trust them after you feel really the same way. They told me that the trouble in my mind is not only trouble, it's disaster for the country. Yes, you always won't tell what death looks like before you are dead. That's the way knowledge makes me feel. You know before you do it. You feel before you believe it. And this is sad to know. I choose to think that the darkness is not made my imagination. I must come from some place. Experience ever told me . I've been some rural areas. I had seen how they treat their babies.Not health, not clean, not safe. Besides, one thing in so many, in a faraway province, young girl was being humiliated and have to walk and scrawl with nothing on under 3 young girils' direction and later she was sold to five boys who raped her. This thing happened in public,in a crowd net bar and on the street, ok, even not a rural countryside. No body speak a word when the girl is in trouble.No body called police. Use your imagination! Think about the rural areas. This news has been broadcast on TV. And the report said one line I rememebered after the show stopped:"None of human". And we are leading 21 century which means truly no happy to me. "Cause I feel after the storiy after story I heard about , HELL. And also you can see one thing from this frightened, hypnotized state of mind: why does chinese fight so stiff in war and why is life so cheap in war? They don't even need guns, powders, canons , or aircrafts. They can just use knives, arrows, sometiems even their teeth to fill their hungrey stomach. And their small head is very easy to become faithful and dreamful. They were simple then they were kind. And you can see why Mao chose peasants to be the force to beat Jiang. And rural place has the essence of living, not life. For suffering the pain, chinese knows well about it. For enjoying life and treating people, chinese is a student. Don't say 5000 civilization. Civilazation is told on man, not the Great Wall, please.

09-12-2004, 06:38 PM	#11 (permalink)
Mephisto2 Junkie	OK, so I'm confused as to the purpose of this thread. If you are criticising the Chinese leadership, then you are not alone here. Mr Mephisto

09-12-2004, 07:17 PM	#13 (permalink)
jusfeel Upright	I am. I wouldn't lie here 'cause so free, but I just find out My IP kinda been blocked....why..really...can't be...but maybe..here., china.... Last edited by jusfeel; 09-12-2004 at 07:25 PM..

09-12-2004, 07:26 PM	#15 (permalink)
jusfeel Upright	ha.....You didn't see TV ,right? It's true. I didn't lie.

09-12-2004, 07:36 PM	#16 (permalink)
jusfeel Upright	Story comes from Guangxi. You can check it by your own. Not countryside incident, it happened in CITY. Five or four boys raped her. They were being judged at once for this is so inhuman and uncoverable.But many other things...which seems to you that you won't believe. I am afraid saddly that I do. Last edited by jusfeel; 09-12-2004 at 07:39 PM..

09-12-2004, 07:54 PM	#17 (permalink)
QuasiMojo King Knave Location: Lancaster	jusfeel- what is Happiness? __________________ AzAbOv ZoBeLoE

09-12-2004, 10:37 PM	#18 (permalink)
jusfeel Upright	Happiness is that you get to where you want to get and you know what you want to know. To me, I think.

09-13-2004, 06:23 AM	#19 (permalink)
charlesesl Psycho	Another question jusfeel. If the rich feed on the poor as you have said, then what does that make of you? __________________ It did not really matter what we expected from life, but rather what life expected from us. Dr. Viktor E. Frankl

09-13-2004, 04:21 PM	#20 (permalink)
jusfeel Upright	Not only rich, the whole country is fed by the poor, including me.

09-14-2004, 12:59 AM	#21 (permalink)
Zeld2.0 Cherry-pickin' devil's advocate Location: Los Angeles	Right about now I kinda wish I didn't flunk out of Chinese school early in my life

09-15-2004, 07:58 PM	#23 (permalink)
Zeld2.0 Cherry-pickin' devil's advocate Location: Los Angeles	Similar story auswegian: A few days ago my mother and father just returned from a 2 week trip to Taiwan and China. They haven't visited China in nearly 10 years and they were absolutely flat out shocked at how much China had changed. Though conditions in rural China are still poor as ever as many, many people are still living the life of a peasant, the conditions in the cities and what one might call "mainstream" China has absolutely skyrocketed. I hope I get a chance to visit and check it out for myself and the general concensus I find now is that China is growing at a very fast (even alarming) rate and so it may very well be possible that China becomes the next superpower within 20 years and can possibly eclipse the U.S. at its rate now within our own lifetimes.

09-15-2004, 08:54 PM	#24 (permalink)
jusfeel Upright	I think I need to stop discussing hopeful views about china. It's right to see beautiful things If one is happy, even he just has food to eat when others have car to travel, so what?? But I'd rather see economics fall than to see someone cry. Where are we going, somewhere gold-made? Last edited by jusfeel; 09-15-2004 at 08:58 PM..

09-15-2004, 11:42 PM	#26 (permalink)
Zeld2.0 Cherry-pickin' devil's advocate Location: Los Angeles	They aren't exactly tourists given their nationality is just about the same... And trust me, they've been there a lot (though they are not from there, mother is from Taiwan) - they have many ties there. Given the 80% population of China is around 800 million people, and that the rest would about equal 2/3 - 5/6 of the U.S. population, that's a HUGE stride from even ten years ago. And they're expanding fast, very fast. Chinese friends and relatives all have similar conclusions (yes even those from Taiwan) - I personally will be taking a trip there sometime next summer or perhaps during this winter (though its pretty cold) - i would suggest ya try and take one sometime too. There is in no way I can take what people say for word as what is there, but when teachers who have taught overseas, relatives, family, close friends, and even people who have little reason to have ties with China are saying its growing and growing fast, I'd probably take their word.

09-16-2004, 07:47 PM	#28 (permalink)
auswegian Crazy Location: Perth, Australia	My friend Helen and her parents were at Tiananmen square, and fled China soon after that. However, when her parents made contact with friends in China again, they said that they had left just before it had started getting good. Sure, there are still many, many people who still live hard lives, especially in the rural areas. But compared to the Maoist era? The Civil War? The Republican era? The Qing dynasty. China's economy and standard of living is progressing faster than it has in the last 200 years. Sure, China could be a lot better. But if you compare China to many other parts of the developing world, it's clear that China could be in a lot worse situation than it is. And as for tourists not being able to get an indication of true living standards in a country, maybe that's true to an extent. But surely people who've actually been to poor parts of China, as I have, would have a slightly better idea than some armchair economists in the West. __________________ "Look, I'm pretty relaxed for a guy who just lost money on a rave. And who's currently speeding down the highway drunk off my tits. And I'm being chased by someone in a blue Corolla. Woohoo! I just ran a red light!"

09-16-2004, 10:30 PM	#29 (permalink)
The Phenomenon Psycho Location: I think my horns are coming out	Felt like posting this: Roger Waters - Watching TV We were watching TV In Tiananmen Square Lost my baby there My yellow rose In her bloodstained clothes She was a short order pastry chef In a Dim Sum dive on the Yangtze tideway She had a shiny hair She was a daughter of an engineer Won't you shed a tear For my yellow rose My yellow rose In her bloodstained clothes She had a perfect breasts She had high hopes She had almond eyes She had yellow thighs She was a student of philosophy Won't you grieve with me For my yellow rose Shed a tear For her bloodstained clothes She had shiny hair She had perfect breasts She had almond eyes She had yellow thighs She was a daughter af an engineer So get out your pistols Get out your stones Get out your knives Cut them to the bone They are the lackeys of the grocer's machine They built the dark satanic mills That manufacture hell on earth They bought the front row seats on Calvary They are irrelevant to me And I grieve for my sister People of China Do not forget do not forget The children who died for you Long live the Republic Did we do anything after this I've feeling we did We were watching TV Watching TV We were watching TV Watching TV She wore a white bandanna that said Freedom now She thought the Great Wall of China Would come tumbling down She was a student Her father was an engineer Won't you shed a tear For my yellow rose My yellow rose In her bloodstained clothes Her grandpa fought old Chiang Kai-shek That no-good low-down dirty rat Who used to order his troops To fire on women and children Imagine that imagine that And in the spring of'48 Mao Tse-tung got quite irate And he kicked that old dictator Chiang Out of the state of China Chiang Kai-shek came down in Formosa And they armed the island of Quemoy And the shells were flying across the China Sea And they turned Formosa into a shoe factory Called Taiwan And she is different from Cro-Magnon man She's different from Anne Boleyn She is different from the Rosenbergs And from the unknown Jew She is different from the unknown Nicaraguan Half superstar half victim She's a victor star conceptually new And she is different from the Dodo And from the Kankabono She is different from the Aztec And from the Cherokee She's everybody's sister She's a symbolic of our failure She's the one in fifty million Who can help us to be free Because she died on TV And I grieve for my sister

09-16-2004, 11:26 PM	#30 (permalink)
Zeld2.0 Cherry-pickin' devil's advocate Location: Los Angeles	Much more has happened durign the time between Tianamen Square and today... I don't want to get into some of my family history but I will say that I have roots in the Kuomingtang which fought the communists and the japanese for nearly 20 years, had a great grandmother executed by communists simply for being one of the 'wealthy,' and have had quite a few in my line that were prominent generals during the wars including WW2... and to actually hear that family say how much China has changed is pretty significant in my mind.