1k

[Rekna]

Well we have passed the 1k mark in Iraq. Over 1000 US soldiers have died. Please take a moment an pray for the soldiers who gave it all.

Then when your done also pray for those on the other side who have died.

[irateplatypus]

thanks for the "stop and think" reminder.

check and check.

no matter our political stance, at least we're together in lamenting the loss of life.

[Halx]

Sorry, can't pray to nothin'

But I can loathe the man who sent them there to die.

[Ustwo]

Originally Posted by Halx

Sorry, can't pray to nothin'

But I can loathe the man who sent them there to die.

Oddly my friends who went there to fight don't feel the same way about said man.

[Mephisto2]

Every single one?

And, more or less, how many do you know personally? I suspect it might be a few less than the tens of thousands who are serving.

Finally, don't the latest polls show that the majority of people now do not support the war? Simple, unbaited question.


Mr Mephisto

[Halx]

That's great Ustwo. Let's also not forget that they went through a gruelling training course that conditioned their mind for exactly the task they were assigned for. If I was trained for a mission, I'd be pretty disappointed if I was never deployed.

Now on the other side of the matter, there are those of us who are fortunate enough to have not had to fall back on a career in the military as our favorable choice. We are able to stand back and see the entire picture - not from the mouth of a few of our close friends - but from the collective response of an entire continent. While your military friends are being welcomed by the smiling faces of the Kurds, I get to read how every country in europe grows more and more impatient with our incompetent president.

Oh I could go on... I'm at work though.

[djtestudo]

I will be thinking about three of my friends in the Marines, two of whom are in training and the other about to go back for his second tour, and not one believeing they made the wrong choice or are not doing the right thing.

[whocarz]

Originally Posted by Rekna

Then when your done also pray for those on the other side who have died.

The only ones I have pity on (I am atheist) are members of the former Iraqi army that died in combat back when we first invaded. The people our boys are fighting now can rot as far as I'm concerned.

[Rekna]

Originally Posted by whocarz

The only ones I have pity on (I am atheist) are members of the former Iraqi army that died in combat back when we first invaded. The people our boys are fighting now can rot as far as I'm concerned.

How about the childern who have died to air strikes, or the farmers. Not only military/resistance fighters are dieing on the other side.

[irateplatypus]

Originally Posted by Halx

That's great Ustwo. Let's also not forget that they went through a gruelling training course that conditioned their mind for exactly the task they were assigned for. If I was trained for a mission, I'd be pretty disappointed if I was never deployed.

Now on the other side of the matter, there are those of us who are fortunate enough to have not had to fall back on a career in the military as our favorable choice. We are able to stand back and see the entire picture - not from the mouth of a few of our close friends - but from the collective response of an entire continent. While your military friends are being welcomed by the smiling faces of the Kurds, I get to read how every country in europe grows more and more impatient with our incompetent president.

Oh I could go on... I'm at work though.

that is a load of crap halx. i don't usually just come out and say that... but you sure got my blood boiling. "fortunate enough to have not had to fall back on a career in the military as our favorable choice"? who do you think you are? you think you're better than these soldiers? more well off, huh? it may surprise you that many people smarter than you or i CHOOSE to do this.

smiling faces of kurds huh? sure, while 12 years olds are being sent with bombs in your direction. while the kid you've never seen is celebrating his first birthday while you're sleeping in a tent on the other side of the world. while your wife is lonely and worried sick she'll get a telegram each day. while your best girl gets tired of waiting and sends you a dear john letter that you read inbetween the incoming mortar rounds. you think you're more in tune with the situation than the soldiers whose lives are on the line?

let's all shed a tear for halx and the papers he has to read.

[xepherys]

Originally Posted by Halx

That's great Ustwo. Let's also not forget that they went through a gruelling training course that conditioned their mind for exactly the task they were assigned for. If I was trained for a mission, I'd be pretty disappointed if I was never deployed.

Now on the other side of the matter, there are those of us who are fortunate enough to have not had to fall back on a career in the military as our favorable choice. We are able to stand back and see the entire picture - not from the mouth of a few of our close friends - but from the collective response of an entire continent. While your military friends are being welcomed by the smiling faces of the Kurds, I get to read how every country in europe grows more and more impatient with our incompetent president.

Oh I could go on... I'm at work though.

Halx-

That's a mighty narrow-minded response. I'm kinda surprised. I am "fortunate" enough... I've spent over ten years in IT, have made decent money and not had to worry too much. I enlisted just over two years ago now of my own free will. Not for money, or free college (though I am going back), but because I wanted to serve my country. I've always had good grades, I scored a composite 99 (percentile) on the ASVAB and could have been anything I wanted, but chose Combat Arms. And frankly, I believe I'm intelligent enough to see it from both sides.

Personally, I'm not a fan of Bush. I also don't care much for Kerry. Regardless of what either says, both will bring more war upon us. I believe the "War on Terrorism" in it's roots is a valid and valiant effort. It has, however, run amuck and I understand that. The attack on Iraq, I believe, was a good thing. It may have been unfounded in it's "intentions" for WMDs, but alleviating Sadam from power was a good thing. As for the world at large, especially our "friends" in Europe... we're damned if we do, damned if we don't. So many coutries and people like to bash the U.S. for interevening and playing "Big Brother". But if something comes along and we take no action at all, we're suddenly heartless and cruel because we DON'T use our power and wealth to fix other people's problems. Hmmmm... that's real history my friends.

Bush's biggest problem is that he's not a diplomat. Clinton probably could've done the same thing and had most of the world ecstatic about it. Bush is a bad speaker, a bad politician and a bad diplomat. *shrug* Vote him out... That's what our country is all about, right?

Will this change things? Probably not. Do you believe that the U.S. doesn't face another attack if Kerry wins? Do you believe that we won't go to war with Syria or Korea in the next few years? Sure, we might not, but we very well may, regardless of our presidential outcome. And sorry, this isn't 9 weeks of Army Basic Training talking, it's 27 years of being an American citizen talking. Hopefully you can understand the difference and see that I'm not just a brain washed machine, and that some people do sit somewhere just off the fence to one side.

Do things need to be fixed? Yup! But it takes time... be patient!

[xepherys]

*applaud irateplatypus*

Your post came during the midst of my reply. And you're absolutely correct!

[xepherys]

Originally Posted by Rekna

How about the childern who have died to air strikes, or the farmers. Not only military/resistance fighters are dieing on the other side.

That's funny, what about all the children who lost their parents on 9/11/2001? What about those innocent citizens? Frankly, I feel pity on the Muslim nations... they've been at war for HOW many hundreds of years? They don't know anything else.

Besides, our fighters are over there, in an Army, faces to the world, those cowards hide in mosques and schools, behind women and children with masks on their faces, saying they do it for Allah?! WTF?!?!?! I'm sorry, I didn't realize it was shameful to show your face fighting for something you supposedly believe in. Those cowardly *edit* deserve every last bullet they eat.

[kurty[B]]

My friend just accepted a job as a network/systems admin on a military base somewhere in Iraq (contractor, not military), I will most definitely be praying for him and others that are "serving" our "leaders".

[xepherys]

Originally Posted by kurty[B]

My friend just accepted a job as a network/systems admin on a military base somewhere in Iraq (contractor, not military), I will most definitely be praying for him and others that are "serving" our "leaders".

That's odd, i always thought I was serving my country, not my president... *ponder*

[Rekna]

Originally Posted by xepherys

That's funny, what about all the children who lost their parents on 9/11/2001? What about those innocent citizens? Frankly, I feel pity on the Muslim nations... they've been at war for HOW many hundreds of years? They don't know anything else.

Besides, our fighters are over there, in an Army, faces to the world, those cowards hide in mosques and schools, behind women and children with masks on their faces, saying they do it for Allah?! WTF?!?!?! I'm sorry, I didn't realize it was shameful to show your face fighting for something you supposedly believe in. Those cowardly *edit* deserve every last bullet they eat.

When did Iraq cause 9/11? What does Iraq have to do with 9/11 at all? Did we attack Iraq because they were an eminent threat and had WMD or did we attack them because they flew planes into our buildings? Please clarify this because i've never seen any evidence linking Iraq to 9/11. If we went in because of 9/11 why are we buddy buddy with the Saudis?


What did the kids do to us? What did the old lady taking care of her 3 grandchildern do to us? The fact is there are a lot of innocent people in Iraq dieing by our careless raids. If you think every Iraqi that has died deserved it then you have serious issues.

Simply going in with force isn't helping the problem at all. Every time we kill an innocent we bolster the ranks of the opposing forces. Ever time will kill an opposing force we do the same also.

[mml]

While prayer is not part of my life, I hope that if it is, you take a moment to pray for all of those who have died in Iraq. For those of us who are not particularly religious, it still behooves us to take a moment as well and think about the lives and opportunities lost due to war. It does not matter whether you are for or against this war, loss of life is a tragedy. It does not matter whether it is an American or an Iraqi. Also remember that in four days, we will have reached the 3rd anniversary of 9/11. Take some time to remember that as well.

[xepherys]

Originally Posted by Rekna

When did Iraq cause 9/11? What does Iraq have to do with 9/11 at all? Did we attack Iraq because they were an eminent threat and had WMD or did we attack them because they flew planes into our buildings? Please clarify this because i've never seen any evidence linking Iraq to 9/11. If we went in because of 9/11 why are we buddy buddy with the Saudis?


What did the kids do to us? What did the old lady taking care of her 3 grandchildern do to us? The fact is there are a lot of innocent people in Iraq dieing by our careless raids. If you think every Iraqi that has died deserved it then you have serious issues.

Simply going in with force isn't helping the problem at all. Every time we kill an innocent we bolster the ranks of the opposing forces. Ever time will kill an opposing force we do the same also.

Iraq didn't cause it... but they were another good stop on the way to ridding the world of sadistic leaders (maybe Bush is one, too... I make no comments either way). "We're" buddy buddy with the Saudis because of money and oil... we referring to leadership, not to soldiers...

I don't think every Iraqi that has died deserves it... I think every militant who died has. The clerks and bankers and wives and mothers and fathers and husbands at the World Trade Center didn't "do anything" either. Yes yes, Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. There are theories that bin Laden did receive money from Iraq, but that's neither here nor there.

We bolster the ranks of the opposing force just by being us... by being Americans, by being free, by being Democratic, by being Christian,. by being friends with Israel... We didn't need to kill any innocent children to get attacked in the first place. *shrug* People have hated us as a nation for a LONG time. This is nothing new. Radical muslims and terrorists have also been killing innocents for a LONG time... just not in the U.S.

I wonder if anyone has taken a global, historical view of everything that has led up to now. The fact that the U.S. USED force against any of it's enemies, perceived or otherwise, is not a shock to a lot of people that study such things. *shrug* I'm not really sure why Iraq not being involved in 9/11 has much to do with anything... we should've finished that fight off 13 years ago. We just had to come back for a rematch.

[Rekna]

Yes we should have, when we had the support of the world and the people of Iraq. But Bush senior locked us into a withdrawl before he left office.

[whocarz]

Rekna, please look at my post again. I said I feel no pity for those FIGHTING our boys at this point in time. The last I checked, our soldiers aren't fighting innocent children. Yes, it is true that innocents die in wars, this is a fact of life. You live, and therefore you must die. It is sad to see people die so violently at such a young age, but there is nothing I can do to help. I am here, they are there. That is the way it is.

[seretogis]

I'm waiting for the parades in the streets.

[Halx]

Sure, people, go ahead and get pissed off at me. You don't think I don't respect these soldiers? You're totally wrong. However, unlike you, I can look at the picture from a totally objective viewpoint. Sure, some people chose to give up their high-paying job to go over and fight the war. That's just not the case for the majority, though. Don't ever think you have some sort of point because you can think of a couple exceptions to a statement. I'm not here preaching law, just giving my opinion, and I don't have to be correct about 100% of the people I'm covering in a blanket statement to feel justified.

I respect soldiers and their will to do the dirty work for us. It's quite obvious that without them, I would not be allowed to be the asshole that I am today. HOWEVER, just because they feel they are fighting the good fight does not mean they are. Just because they find themselves buried in the ranks and experiencing the war from a first-hand point of view does not mean they are seeing the whole thing.

So, hats off to the soldiers, for they are truely devoted men and I can respect that. It's a shame they have been mislead and falsely persuaded.

[Halx]

Originally Posted by xepherys

That's odd, i always thought I was serving my country, not my president... *ponder*

If you were serving your country, you'd be in Florida as disaster relief, not in Iraq securing oil reserves for your "leaders" friends.*


*Hypothetical statement

[smooth]

I always find it odd when christians claim to mourn the dead.

I would think their religous tenets would allow them to be estatic--after all, aren't those men and women shooting on up to heaven to be with their Lord and Savior?

And doesn't every death get the world closer to the endtimes--after all, isn't that what bush and other reborns desire?

It must be an odd existence to believe things that conflict with real social demands of grief. I used to live that lifestyle and now I can barely remember how I managed to ensure the beliefs demanded of me meshed with my lived experience.

So my sympathy lies with the christians who have to deal with yet another inconsistency in their ideological house of cards.

And if anyone questions my or Halx's concern or respect for military peoples, come live in Southern California for a bit where you'll deal with a lot more than abstract soldiers used for politicking.

[Mephisto2]

smooth, whilst I agree with some of the underlying implications of this thread, I think degenerating into criticising other people's religious beliefs is just a little petty.

I'm atheist, but I repect those who are not. Let's not start insulting people's religion.


Mr Mephisto

[The Phenomenon]

Its a pity... War's hell. :/

[xepherys]

Originally Posted by Halx

Sure, people, go ahead and get pissed off at me. You don't think I don't respect these soldiers? You're totally wrong. However, unlike you, I can look at the picture from a totally objective viewpoint.

...

I'm not here preaching law, just giving my opinion, and I don't have to be correct about 100% of the people I'm covering in a blanket statement to feel justified.

So, it's your totally objective opinion? That doesn't make sense to me...

Originally Posted by Halx

I respect soldiers and their will to do the dirty work for us. It's quite obvious that without them, I would not be allowed to be the asshole that I am today.

Being generally an asshole myself, I must say... good point!

[xepherys]

Originally Posted by Halx

If you were serving your country, you'd be in Florida as disaster relief, not in Iraq securing oil reserves for your "leaders" friends.*


*Hypothetical statement

Hmmm... Well, I'm in the National Guard... but in Michigan, not Florida. If I were in the Florida National Guard, that's exactly what I'd be doing right now, just like they are. Per various acts of congress (or possible constitutional law) the federal army is not allowed to be deployed stateside (unless, of course, we're under attack by an army at home). National Guard units generally don't deploy outside of their own state. They can, but the governer of state A asks the governer of state B, and usually state B will go to state A's aid. But since each state has a few thousand of their own troops, it's usually unnessecary, save for long-term actions like guarding areas in NYC.

[xepherys]

Originally Posted by smooth

And if anyone questions my or Halx's concern or respect for military peoples, come live in Southern California for a bit where you'll deal with a lot more than abstract soldiers used for politicking.

Care to elaborate?

[rukkyg]

Originally Posted by Halx

Sorry, can't pray to nothin'

But I can loathe the man who sent them there to die.

Exactly.

Originally Posted by xepherys

We bolster the ranks of the opposing force just by being us... by being Americans, by being free, by being Democratic, by being Christian,. by being friends with Israel... We didn't need to kill any innocent children to get attacked in the first place

Have you considered that by supporting israel, and giving them an unfair advantage in the region, that we may have indirectly caused the death of children, and that is why a portion of those in the region who hate us, hate us?

Originally Posted by xepherys

So, it's your totally objective opinion? That doesn't make sense to me...

....It's his opinion on his totally objective view of the facts. If you live in state X and state X is gaining jobs every day, your opinion might be that the nation that contains X is doing a good job with jobs. However, if stats A-W are losing jobs, your opinion would be subjectivlely contained to state X. By looking beyond X to A-X, you will have an objective view, and then can make your opinion based in this view, that the nation that contains A-X is doing a bad job with jobs.

[Ratzil]

Originally Posted by xepherys

(...)they've been at war for HOW many hundreds of years? They don't know anything else.(...)

please to be naming a consecutive period of 25 years of peace for the United States. Thats no rethoric question i honestly dont know. but i do believe you might have a had time providing me with such a period.

Even if you do find one or two periods of complete peace for the US you will certainly agree upon further reflection that your arguement is none. War is part of humanity it seems and the muslim nations didnt fight in more wars than the rest of the globe.

Also i dont realy consider bombing a country to rubbles before sending ground units as very herioc or valiant. Its clever for sure. And if you dont happen to have mechanical guided rockets, well then you have to do some serious indoctrination and use a biological guided rocket. Thats also clever.
Not saying either is good.

[xepherys]

Originally Posted by Ratzil

please to be naming a consecutive period of 25 years of peace for the United States. Thats no rethoric question i honestly dont know. but i do believe you might have a had time providing me with such a period.

Even if you do find one or two periods of complete peace for the US you will certainly agree upon further reflection that your arguement is none. War is part of humanity it seems and the muslim nations didnt fight in more wars than the rest of the globe.

Also i dont realy consider bombing a country to rubbles before sending ground units as very herioc or valiant. Its clever for sure. And if you dont happen to have mechanical guided rockets, well then you have to do some serious indoctrination and use a biological guided rocket. Thats also clever.
Not saying either is good.

a) The US is a much younger country. They've been at it much longer than us.

b) War IS part of humanity, I agree. I think that point have been lost on many people on this thread, though. THey have fought more though... just not "wars". Sending people into public places with explosives strapped around their guts isn't "war", it's "terrorism"

c) It isn't valiant, or heroic... it's smart. That's what tactics are all about. Shooting officers first, and from trees no less, wasn't considered "heroic" or "valiant" but it won us our freedom over 200 years ago. *shrug* Seems to make sense to me.

[Ratzil]

Originally Posted by xepherys

a) The US is a much younger country. They've been at it much longer than us.

b) War IS part of humanity, I agree. I think that point have been lost on many people on this thread, though. THey have fought more though... just not "wars". Sending people into public places with explosives strapped around their guts isn't "war", it's "terrorism"

c) It isn't valiant, or heroic... it's smart. That's what tactics are all about. Shooting officers first, and from trees no less, wasn't considered "heroic" or "valiant" but it won us our freedom over 200 years ago. *shrug* Seems to make sense to me.

@ a) i somehow saw that one coming, call it a hunch. You will surely agree that the USA is not a virgin mary or came into existence via a spontaneous generation with a clean slate. It doesnt matter how old a nation is. Germany is only 55 and hasnt been at war for 90% ( rough estimates)of that time omfgz 1!

@b) care to validate in which extend "they" fought more or alternatively comply with my request to provide "peace - periods" for the USA longer than 25 years?

@c) thx for rephrasing me, those tactics make sense to me too . This discussion deals with the war on iraq. Sending iraqis with explosives strapped around them to disrupt the efforts of the invading nation is called guerilla warfare and certainly is part of war eversince.

I wont contest the fact that noniraqi entities probably have had their hands in some/many of the incidents but why that is the case is a whole different can of worms apart from the fact that mercenaries arent a novel concept either.

I know where you coming from though Xeph. to parapharse the arguement of the post by you that i was initialy replying to: They are fighting a dirty war and are used to it cause they are at it basicaly ever since.

I might have distorted it a bit but just for simplicities sake The point is we all are at it ever since and when the opportunity arises we use dirty tricks and thereby you cant imho make a qualified or qualifying statement about anyone with that arguement.

[Seaver]

I'm staying out of 90% of the thread simply because getting involved would increase my heart rate higher than working out and I already did that this morning.

c) It isn't valiant, or heroic... it's smart. That's what tactics are all about. Shooting officers first, and from trees no less, wasn't considered "heroic" or "valiant" but it won us our freedom over 200 years ago. *shrug* Seems to make sense to me.

Officers were uniformed men who knew exactly what they were doing on a field of battle. Though there was no law of combat it was gentilemanly to leave officers alone. Blowing up innocent civilians when they are going to mosque/school/grocery shopping is completely different. Drawing a line between that is like saying a lineman hitting a cornerback is wrong, so in the same light it's ok to tackle their cheerleaders is justifyable.

[xepherys]

As for providing a peace period, I cannot... but most of the time we've been at war in the last 100 years has been to protect or save someone else's ass. Let's see... WWI... we didn't have much to fear, but our allies did. Rescue! WWII, we tried to stay neutral, but the Japanese decided a nice Sunday surprise was in order... also, our allies needed us. Rescue + Saving EVERYONE's asses! Korea... We went, with many blessings... Sort of a rescue. Vietnam, we went in with the best of intentions... we also weren't the only ones to go (French? Russians?). Failed rescue, but rescue nonetheless. Desert Storm... Ally in need, big bad man taking over small country... world outraged... we went in... RESCUE! I see a pattern, here. Outside of MAYBE this fight, we've never gone to war for shits and giggles. Also, this war is multifaceted... Afghanistan and Iraq are a big package as far as the military is concerned. Whether you believe one to have anything to do with the other or not is irrelevant.

Next issue...

Blowing up innocent civilians when they are going to mosque/school/grocery shopping is completely different.

Uhm, excuse me? I'm praying that you are talking about the militant muslims, and not the Americans. We have had VERY few collateral damages during this fight. Some have to happen... it's war, it's not perfect. Oddly enough, most of the innocents Iraqis being killed right now are being killed by the militant muslims. Apparently, a car bomb that kills a bunch of IRAQI police and IRAQI people and IRAQI innocent citizens is okay. But a soldier that fires a missle at a KNOWN terrorist gathering point, and accidentally takes out four or five innocents is unacceptable. I'm sorry, but simply math will show you that they are at LEAST equally bad. Frankly, I think most of the anti-war Americans have no clue what's ACTUALLY happening there right now. CNN and the rest of the media like to shovel shit out as fast as they can print it. If the media is your source, and not first-hand, ass-to-the sand experience, I think you have no room to talk at all. *shrug*

[Halx]

Originally Posted by xepherys

So, it's your totally objective opinion? That doesn't make sense to me...

I separated the statements by paragraph for a reason.

[Seaver]

Uhm, excuse me? I'm praying that you are talking about the militant muslims, and not the Americans.

Heh chill out, I was talking about the terrorists. I'm a member of our military I KNOW how much trouble we go through to avoid civilians.

[filtherton]

Originally Posted by xepherys

I am "fortunate" enough... I've spent over ten years in IT, have made decent money and not had to worry too much. I enlisted just over two years ago now of my own free will. Not for money, or free college (though I am going back), but because I wanted to serve my country. I've always had good grades, I scored a composite 99 (percentile) on the ASVAB and could have been anything I wanted, but chose Combat Arms. And frankly, I believe I'm intelligent enough to see it from both sides.

Congratulations of having the courage to match your convictions. If only everyone who was pro-war was to enlist. The problem is that it is too easy to scream for a war, when you yourself aren't willing to fight it (you know who you are).

[pedro padilla]

about 10 years ago i had a girlfriend (yeah, really) with a younger brother. I think he was about 10 or 11 at the time I knew him. cool little guy. we used to take him to the skatepark and I spent a long summer afternoon showing him how to make a spine ramp to ramp transfer. end of the day he was showing me how to do it with an extended layback. i let him drink half my beer and drove him home listening to the dead kennedys. When he asked, i left him the cassette.
didn´t think about this kid for 10 years until recently. during one my infrequent calls to the homestead, my mom asked if i remembered the little big guy. shit poor white trash family. not a lot of future promise. high school degree = burger king.
he joined the army. you know, career training and college tuition. better than flipping burgers. apparently he had a lot of interest and natural talent in wireless communications. Probably just the thing to put him in the valuable employee range.
about 7 weeks ago he became one of the statistics. this kid just wanted a good fucking job. i really don´t know what to think or say about this. best i can come up with is rage. yeah, long time ago i knew a cool little kid. i´m goddamn sure his death did not make the U.S. a safer place for other cool little kids. he died to preserve the power and special interests of these PUNKASS rich kids that will never know what motivates the average american youth. an authentic desire to just squeeze by. make a living. have kids. respect the rights of others. to be normal.
how can these hipocritical pussy extra privaleged slimebags ever begin to understand how much more valuable these lives are compared to their own? sorry for the rant. now i go look for the tequila. Prosit!

[tecoyah]

Let us "ALL" remember that these are People. Dead people who should be remembered with dignity, and not used for political advantage.....we are in a war that is debatable in its ethics. The people who have died are to be commended, regardless of how one feels about the person(s) who deployed them.