Okay...thats it, Kerry now "officially" has my vote

[tecoyah]

This is absolutely rediculous......I have now lost ALL respect for the Bush administration. Period.

Pentagon to check Kerry war record
By Julian Coman in Newark, Ohio
(Filed: 05/09/2004)

In a fresh blow to John Kerry's flagging presidential campaign, the Pentagon has ordered an official investigation into the awards of the Democratic senator's five Vietnam War decorations.

News of the inquiry came as President George W Bush opened an 11-point lead over his rival - the widest margin since serious campaigning began - according to the first poll released since last week's Republican convention.

A question mark has been raised over one of John Kerry's awards

The highly unusual inquiry is to be carried out by the inspector-general's office of the United States navy, for which Sen Kerry served as a Swift Boat captain for four months in 1968, making two tours of duty.

He was wounded in action and subsequently awarded three Purple Hearts, a Silver Star and a Bronze Star. But for the past month, the exact details of Mr Kerry's military service in Vietnam have become shrouded in a controversy that the navy has now decided warrants a full-blown search for the truth.

According to a self-styled group of Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, many of whom served in Vietnam during the same period, Mr Kerry exaggerated the significance of combat incidents and inaccurately reported the circumstances of his injuries, at least one of which was allegedly self-inflicted. The accusations are repeated in a book, Unfit to Command, which was published last month.

Last week, the Kerry campaign attempted to leave the Vietnam debate behind, as signs appeared that the controversy was damaging Mr Kerry's standing in the polls. But to the consternation of campaign strategists, the US navy has now agreed to a request by Judicial Watch, a bi-partisan lobby group, for a full inquiry. Judicial Watch is calling for the Navy to report before the elections, but Navy officials are so far refusing to give any timetable for the inquiry.

In an August letter to the Pentagon, the group's president, Tom Fitton, requested an investigation into the "determination and final disposition of the awards granted to Lieutenant (junior grade) John Forbes Kerry, US Naval Reserve", in response to the Swift Boat Veterans' allegations.

A navy spokesman confirmed on Friday that the inspector-general's office at the Pentagon had authorised the inquiry. "It is the responsibility of all personnel to correct errors in official records," said the spokesman. Another official said privately: "There's a feeling that it's time to deal with this thoroughly, once and for all."

Among other records to be examined is a citation of Mr Kerry for bravery that was apparently signed by the former Navy Secretary, John Lehman, and contributed to the award of his silver star. The glowing citation states: "By his brave actions, bold initiative and unwavering devotion to duty, Lt Kerry reflected great credit on himself." But Mr Lehman denies all knowledge of the commendation. "It's a total mystery to me," he said last week. "I never saw it, I never signed it and I never approved it." The inquiry will also investigate other reports and citations leading to the award of Mr Kerry's medals.

On Friday, Mr Lehman endorsed the investigation of Mr Kerry's awards, saying that the relevant navy records needed to be "thoroughly researched and the facts established". Mr Fitton said: "We hope this is the beginning of an actual investigation of the legitimacy of Sen Kerry's awards by the navy and the Pentagon."

In an angry statement from the Kerry campaign headquarters, Michael Meehan, Mr Kerry's senior adviser, condemned the navy probe as an expensive waste of the Pentagon's resources.

"The facts are clear," said Mr Meehan. "The navy awarded John Kerry the Silver Star, a Bronze Star with Combat V and three Purple Hearts. This is a waste of taxpayers' dollars and the Pentagon's time, especially during wartime."

The inquiry comes at the end of the worst week of Mr Kerry's campaign. The poll showing an 11-point lead by President Bush, to be published in this week's Time magazine, was taken during the first three days of the Republican Convention in New York, which featured repeated direct attacks on Mr Kerry as an unreliable candidate for the role of Commander-in-Chief during the war on terror.

[pan6467]

This is fucking pathetic, what the fuck has this country come to? ANYONE regardless of affiliation should be fucking ashamed our country's government (btw the pentagon IS a part of the government that gets its orders from the Commander in Chief, who happens to be the one who gains the most by this witch hunt) has to interfere in our elections now and check 35 year old records. How fucking pathetic is all I can say.

[irateplatypus]

man, even tecoyah is voting for kerry? this really must be serious stuff.

[tecoyah]

Yes....even me.As much as I dislike the guy....these people have finally made my mind up for me. Even you, platypus, have got to find this revolting.

[Ustwo]

You do know they are required to do this when a group questions the validity of the medals.

BTW Judicial Watch is the same group that suied to make Cheny's energy meetings in the Whitehouse public.

Oh and here is a nice Kerry quote about the importance of medals....

In 1996, Adm. Boorda committed suicide after he was accused of wearing medals
he hadn't earned.

At the time, Sen. Kerry told the Boston Herald that the error was "sufficient
to question his leadership position."

If you wind up being less than what you're pretending to be, there is a major
confrontation with value, self-esteem and your sense of how others view you,
Kerry told the Boston Globe.

So explain again how this is the fault of the Bush admin?

He is the pesident not an Emperor, he can't go against the law, only the courts seem to have that power

So exactly WHO are you so angry with?

[Paq]

so why aren't there similar investigations into...oh say bush's alleged coke use, or bush's years in the ANG, or the drunk driving record or the whatever...

seriously, do these things matter now? does kerry's war metals? WTF is this coming to...seriously....I mean, i am seeing kerry come back from the RNC and starting to focus on ISSUES, the economy, jobs, etc....of advice from Clinton...and the second that starts, something that could be a reallll problem for bush, he starts this shit....

so yeah, i'm pissed about this...

[Pacifier]

I think Bush should rather be quiet about awards:

Bush photographed wearing Air Force award he never earned

http://www.bluelemur.com/index.php?p=276

[Rdr4evr]

Originally Posted by Pacifier

I think Bush should rather be quiet about awards:


http://www.bluelemur.com/index.php?p=276

LOL...what a clown.

[OpieCunningham]

Originally Posted by Paq

...oh say bush's alleged coke use

Alleged? Haven't you learned anything from Republican campaign tactics?

You lose nothing by stating it is PROVEN coke use.

Save the "alleged" for the incompetent media to sort out after you've fooled the country into thinking you have some type of solid evidence, like video footage.

The last two months of a Presidential campaign is no time for honesty or honorable behavior.

[Halx]

Originally Posted by OpieCunningham

You lose nothing by stating it is PROVEN coke use.

Where did you come from and why are you so right?

[pedro padilla]

and yet gwb continues to avoid any scrutinizing by the press of his MIA days while he bravely defended texas and alabama from viet cong invasion.
and he looks damn good in a flight suit.

[OpieCunningham]

Originally Posted by Halx

Where did you come from and why are you so right?

     

[Ustwo]

Originally Posted by Paq

so why aren't there similar investigations into...oh say bush's alleged coke use, or bush's years in the ANG, or the drunk driving record or the whatever...

seriously, do these things matter now? does kerry's war metals? WTF is this coming to...seriously....I mean, i am seeing kerry come back from the RNC and starting to focus on ISSUES, the economy, jobs, etc....of advice from Clinton...and the second that starts, something that could be a reallll problem for bush, he starts this shit....

so yeah, i'm pissed about this...

Kerry has these medals up on his web site, (or he did a few days ago) which include some which apparently he could not have earned. HE made an issue out of them, not GWB, and some vets have taken offense to it. If KERRY focused on the issues and not 'I am a war hero vote for me!' this wouldn't be an issue now would it.

[tecoyah]

My point here is not the Medals....earned or not. My point (and the reason for my descision) is the move to investigate Mr. Kerry in order to continue focusing on a non-issue, rather than allow debate on those that matter. I honestly believe these guys are avoiding debate on the things that effect the American people.

Think about it. We are quickly approaching November and have yet to hear of the plans for our Future. This is in my mind nothing but a smear tactic....and a desperate one at that. If the Democrats decided to push for investigations on....oh lets say:
Halliburton
Saudi Arabia
WMD's
Prison Abuse
Illegal Combatants
Geneva Convention guidelines
Pre 9/11 Iraq Plans
Bushs' military service
Bushs' IQ
Presidential Daily Briefings
Lack of War planning
etc.....

Bush & Co. would be shown for the Men they are.

As for the "Requirement" of investigation due to the circumstances.....Surely you Jest.
The Pentagon could just as easily have declined and said nothing, which would have made the entire issue go away. They did this because they wanted to, and that is where my issue lies.

[mb99usa]

I don't care whether he "earned" the medals or not. The guy was in Vietnam.

I am looking forward to the debates where we can watch Bush try to side-step every issue that is brought up. I think Kerry's fortune will take a turn for the better once he goes head to head with Bush and explains his position.

[Ustwo]

Originally Posted by mb99usa

I don't care whether he "earned" the medals or not. The guy was in Vietnam.

I am looking forward to the debates where we can watch Bush try to side-step every issue that is brought up. I think Kerry's fortune will take a turn for the better once he goes head to head with Bush and explains his position.

What makes you think he has a position?

[filtherton]

Originally Posted by Ustwo

What makes you think he has a position?

Are you not smart enough to see through that?

[mb99usa]

I'll take no position over the current position.

[tecoyah]

Originally Posted by Ustwo

What makes you think he has a position?

Ustwo....and for that matter Irate,

I would very much appreciate your honest take on the actual TOPIC here....rather than the continued shifting diatribe that has no effect but to halt the discussion. You two are the most hardcore Bush supporters on this board, and I have come to value the input you both have.
In this instance....I am Very Pissed Off, and require your help to either calm my disgust, or prove the accuracy of it. Of all the posting members here, it would be people such as yourselves who may shed some light on the mentality required to follow this course, please tell me your Honest thoughts on this descision, and for that matter the lack of investigation into the AWOL status of Bush in the reserves.

As I must go to work now....I will anticipate your replys' upon my return tonight, You have the rare opportunity to truly sway someone back from the Kerry vote....should you be convincing. Though at this point I doubt you could sway me towards a Bush Vote.

[powerclown]

The longer they keep Kerry on the defensive and talking about the irrelevance of his service 35 years ago in Vietnam - and not about important issues of today - the better for the Repubs. Its been working thus far.

Sound tactical move on the part of the Bush campaign. Ugly, but probably effective.

[mb99usa]

This seems like standard fair for the Bush campaign. They did something very similar in 2000 to beat McCain for the Republican nomination.

[Stompy]

Personally, I don't give a rat's ass whether he was in vietnam or not. That means nothing to me.

That shit was 35-40 years ago and people really need to get the fuck over it. That doesn't mean I don't feel sorry for the people who served, but could SOMEONE tell me what the hell Vietnam has to do with either candidates' positions on issues?

What's funny is the Bush Administration is calling for an investigation on this when Bush himself has an even shittier service record? Wow, that's calling the kettle black...

Politicians are fuckups.

[roachboy]

this ridiculous set of "questions" concerning kerry's war record is yet another karl rove special, served up brown and steaming on a bun, with total impunity.
it is not like there is any mystery about where it came from....
yet there are folk who are more than willing to bite right in.
i do not understand it.

you would think that, by now, the modus operandi of mr rove would be obvious enough that the "messages" themselves would fall flat.

what is the bushline in this campaign?
vote out of fear

change is bad, change is scary

bush is present in a manner of speaking, your vacant guide to the "war on terror"--the absurdity of the "war" itself makes change even more scary.

at any rate, it would not do to have someone at the helm in who understands anything about war. no, for a ridiculous undertaking like this, you need a ridiculous little man--besides, he is familiar in a kinda of captain kangaroo way, and you liked captain kangaroo even if you would not have watched him to get shakespeare or even anything intelligent--nonetheless, there is something reassuring about seeing him in his goofball outfits and with his patriotic props--and there is something endearing about his awkwardness with things like language and not being on vacation...

change is scary: the irrational, idiotic policies of this administration are legitimate because they exist.

having nothing to say to justify the present administration, feeling that justification unnecessary, karl rove has organized what you are now getting.

what a guy.

what a perfect example of how conservativism really works.

karl rove, american hero.

[mb99usa]

Originally Posted by Stompy

Personally, I don't give a rat's ass whether he was in vietnam or not. That means nothing to me.

That shit was 35-40 years ago and people really need to get the fuck over it. That doesn't mean I don't feel sorry for the people who served, but could SOMEONE tell me what the hell Vietnam has to do with either candidates' positions on issues?

All I meant was that he served. I also personally do not see what the relevance of actions in Vietnam hold today other than he was willing to serve in the military which he is seeking to be Commander in Chief.

I would much rather here about both candidates plans for the future which is why I stated I am looking forward to the debates.

Edwards was at a function last week in Norristown PA where he did make some statements as to the Kerry/Edwards stance on some issues. I liked what he had to say and look forward to hearing more of their plans.

On the flip side other than "stay the course" I have not heard what the Bush plans are.

[Ustwo]

Originally Posted by tecoyah

Ustwo....and for that matter Irate,

I would very much appreciate your honest take on the actual TOPIC here....rather than the continued shifting diatribe that has no effect but to halt the discussion. You two are the most hardcore Bush supporters on this board, and I have come to value the input you both have.
In this instance....I am Very Pissed Off, and require your help to either calm my disgust, or prove the accuracy of it. Of all the posting members here, it would be people such as yourselves who may shed some light on the mentality required to follow this course, please tell me your Honest thoughts on this descision, and for that matter the lack of investigation into the AWOL status of Bush in the reserves.

As I must go to work now....I will anticipate your replys' upon my return tonight, You have the rare opportunity to truly sway someone back from the Kerry vote....should you be convincing. Though at this point I doubt you could sway me towards a Bush Vote.

I would stick to it, but you have made up your mind, at least I thought you did.

Bush has nothing to do with it, there are no shadow groups here, Judical Watch nails both sides, but you have decided its somehow the Bush admins fault. I found it to be irrational anger directed at the wrong people. I laid out my case, you rejected it, enough said. I wish it was otherwise but if you are this pissed off and its not Bush's fault just who are you voting against?

[irateplatypus]

as a disclaimer, i think we should take a step back from this issue and all of its myriad wrinkles and re-examine how much you think it should effect the election. i frequently hear of people dismissing this issue as ancillary to the real issues... yet voters on both sides are clearly agitated by it. with the war on terror, education, economical concerns, gay marriage and stem cell research on the docket for the more pertinent issues... i think we should all take a page from our own books and refuse to be effected by the posturing on this issue.

do you think john kerry honestly thinks that his short service in vietnam makes him qualified to be commander in chief by itself? do you honestly think the GOP campaign thinks the swiftvets allegations (whether completely true or not) completely disqualify a seasoned senator from being able to fill the Presidential office? i'm confident the answer to both questions is "no". i'm often just as guilty, but both sides have us dancing to this sensational tune while there are so many more useful things to base our vote on. that being said... a poster politely asked for my input on this development and this is my response.

there is a line we must walk between pragmatism and justice. for myself, i consider the likelihood of kerry engaging in dishonest self-promotion in his war record to be strong. even so, i'm willing to forgive senator kerry for these indiscretions for the health of our republic. this means that i believe that the pentagon investigation, while it may shed genuine light on the truth, should not continue till either the end of the election (if bush wins) or after kerry's term (should he win). i value the truth and vindication of the veteran's testimony should it ever arrise... but i think the cost of immediate justice if the facts go against kerry's word is too high for our country to pay right now.

bottomline: i'm not opposed to a thorough investigation into kerry's past, but i think it should take place at a time free from political considerations. if kerry is lying about key events he will receive his due measure of scorn, but this way the country will not have to pay the price for either party's lies.

what would i like to see happen? i'm doubting the President personally initiated the investigation, but he certainly has the power to stop it. he should tell the pentagon to halt it until the political process plays itself out. similarly, i believe kerry should tone down his rhetoric about his vietnam days. he isn't beyond suspicion and the issue isn't near the level of relevance found elsewhere.

[tecoyah]

Thank you both.....

[rukkyg]

From what I've seen (since the RNC, which includes during it because kerry didn't speak), kerry has basically not talked about vietnam except to make little quips against bush or something in his defense. He hasn't done anything substantial to promote his service. He's mostly been talking about the economy. So I think that all you who say Kerry should stop talking about Vietnam have gotten their wishes.

[irateplatypus]

nothing has been as focused on vietnam as his convention speech has... that i'll agree with. but, apparently he has been talking about it enough to have President Clinton recommend from his hospital bed that he tone it down about vietnam.

i'll cite a source if ya like. right now, i'm feelin' lazy.

[smooth]

Originally Posted by irateplatypus

nothing has been as focused on vietnam as his convention speech has... that i'll agree with. but, apparently he has been talking about it enough to have President Clinton recommend from his hospital bed that he tone it down about vietnam.

i'll cite a source if ya like. right now, i'm feelin' lazy.

no need to hunt down a source, unless you disagree with my next statement:

Clinton told him to tone it down because of what they focused on at the convention--what you're thinking of isn't due to anything kerry said after the convention (although I'm not sure he toned it down enough).

It really is sad, though. I wish conservatives would stop attacking him. I keep hearing people chastise kerry for defending himself--as if he should stand around and let all this shit splatter on him without attempting damage control. Just leave the man alone and talk about one's own issues--unless one's platform doesn't have any.

kerry should probably do the same--and that's what Clinton told him. Neither Rove nor his dad appear to be telling bush the same thing--or he isn't listening.

I'm not romanticizing the past, and I don't think bickering will paralyze the nation or even make us more vulnerable to external threats. I just think it's petty, immature, and I think a lot of people fall into it fairly easily.