Suspected Chechen rebels take a school hostage.

[irateplatypus]

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20040901/D84QV6IO1.html

Hundreds Held in Russian School; 8 Killed

Sep 1, 12:05 PM (ET)

By MUSA SADULAYEV
BELSAN, Russia (AP) - More than a dozen militants wearing suicide-bomb belts seized a southern Russian school in a region bordering Chechnya on Wednesday, taking hostage about 400 people - half of them children - and threatening to blow up the building if police storm it. As many as eight people have been reported killed, one of them a school parent.

Hours into the desperate standoff, security officials said they had made brief contact with the hostage-takers. Russian special forces wearing camouflage and carrying heavy-caliber machine guns surrounded Middle School No. 1. About 1,000 people, mostly parents, were massed the three-story building in the town of Belsen, demanding information and accusing the government of failing to protect their children.

Kazbek Dzantiyev, head of the North Ossetia region's Interior Ministry, said that the hostages have threatened "for every destroyed fighter, they will kill 50 children and for every injured fighter - 20 (children)," the ITAR-Tass news agency reported.

At one point, a girl wearing a floral print dress and a red bow in her hair fled the school, her hand held by a flak-jacketed soldier. An older woman followed them. Ruslan Ayamov, spokesman for North Ossetia's Interior Ministry told The Associated Press that 12 children and one adult managed to escape after hiding in the building's boiler room.

The attack was the latest blamed on secessionist Chechen rebels, coming a day after a suicide bomber killed nine people in Moscow and a week after near-simultaneous explosions blamed on terrorists caused two Russian planes to crash, killing all 90 people on board. The surge in violence was apparently timed around last Sunday's Chechen presidential election.

"In essence, war has been declared on us, where the enemy is unseen and there is no front," Russian Defense Minister Sergei Ivanov said.

President Vladimir Putin interrupted his working holiday Wednesday in the Black Sea resort of Sochi for a second time and returned to the capital. On arrival at the airport, he held an immediate meeting with the heads of Russia's Interior Ministry and Federal Security Service, the Interfax news agency said.

The standoff began after a ceremony marking the first day of the Russian school year, when it was likely that many parents had accompanied their children. About 17 militants, men and women, stormed the three-story building and herded captives into the gymnasium. They forced children to stand at the windows and warned they would blow up the school if police intervened, said Alexei Polyansky, a police spokesman for southern Russia.

"I was standing near the gates, music was playing, when I saw three armed people running with guns. At first I though it was a joke when they fired in the air and we fled," a teenager, Zarubek Tsumartov, said on Russian television.

Hours after the seizure, Regional Federal Security Service chief Valery Andreyev said on NTV television that negotiations with the hostage-takers "are just, just beginning" and that brief contact had not allowed authorities to evaluate the situation in Belsen, located 10 miles north of the regional capital of Vladikavkaz

The ITAR-Tass news agency, citing local hospitals, reported that seven people died of injuries in the hospital and one was killed at the site during the seizure.

But Regional Emergency Situations Minister Boris Dzgoyev told The Associated Press that two civilians were killed and nine hospitalized, and that two bodies were visible near the school. Interfax cited a health official as saying four people were killed, but the emergencies ministry later said the toll was two.

Dzgoyev said a girl was also lying near the building, presumably wounded, but officials said the area could not be approached because it was coming under fire.

Fatima Khabalova, spokeswoman for the regional parliament, earlier said one of the dead was a father who brought his child to the school and was shot when he tried to resist the raiders. She also said at least nine people had been injured in gunfire, including three teachers and two police officers.

Suspicion in both the school attack and the Moscow bombing fell on Chechen rebels or their sympathizers, but there was no evidence of any direct link. The attacks came around Chechnya's presidential elections, a Kremlin-backed vote aimed at undermining support for the insurgents by establishing a modicum of civil order in the war-shattered republic. The previous president, Akhmad Kadyrov, was killed with more than 20 others in a bombing May 9.

The militants inside the school released one hostage with a list of their demands, including the freedom of fighters detained over a series of attacks on police facilities in neighboring Ingushetia in June, ITAR-Tass reported.

They also seek talks with regional officials and a well-known pediatrician, Leonid Roshal, who aided hostages during the deadly seizure of a Moscow theater in 2002, news reports said.

Parents of the seized children recorded a videocassette appeal to Putin to fulfill the terrorists' demands, Khabalova said. The text of the appeal was not immediately available.

The violence was the latest to plague the government of Putin, who came to power vowing to crush the Chechen rebellion. Terrorism fears in Russia have risen markedly following the plane crashes and the suicide bombing outside a Moscow subway station Tuesday night. The blast by a female attacker tore through a busy area between the station and a department store, killing nine people and wounded more than 50.

Authorities said Tuesday that 10 people were killed, but Interfax reported Wednesday that Moscow health officials revised that, saying one man who died in a hospital was not a victim of the blast.

A militant Muslim web site published a statement claiming responsibility for the bombing on behalf of the "Islambouli Brigades," a group that also claimed responsibility for the airliner crashes. The statements could not immediately be verified.

The statement said Tuesday's bombing was a blow against Putin, "who slaughtered Muslims time and again." Putin has refused to negotiate with rebels in predominantly Muslim Chechnya who have fought Russian forces for most of the past decade, saying they must be wiped out.

i can't imagine holding children hostage... threatening 50 executions if one of their own dies. something must be done about these chechens. they get bolder as the months go by.

this is an awful situation, i hope and pray that it will be diffused without furthur injury to the children of the school.

[Mephisto2]

Unusually (haha), I actually agree with you on this.

I'm absolutely stunned and horrified by this. If anything is worse that bombing or hijackings, it's this kind of attack.

And knowing the Russians, I have a feeling it's all going to end horribly.


Mr Mephisto

[Averett]

This is not going to end well at all. Another article I read (On MSN I think) mentioned a seize on a hospital awhile back where 200 people were killed.


There is no way at all for this to end well.

[Zeld2.0]

I hate to admit but the fall of the iron fist of the Soviet Union has really really messed up stuff in its previous area and all hell will break lose

And I too have a feeling it'll end horribly

[Zeld2.0]

Originally Posted by Averett

This is not going to end well at all. Another article I read (On MSN I think) mentioned a seize on a hospital awhile back where 200 people were killed.


There is no way at all for this to end well.

Wasn't that the theater house where they pumped in the wrong gas that killed people instead of knocking them out?

[Mephisto2]

It wasn't the wrong gas. It was simply so effective that many people died from inhaling so much of it.

I wonder if the terrorists in the school have gas masks? I doubt the Russians would do the same again in any case.


Mr Mephisto

[Zeld2.0]

Even if they don't have gas masks, gas wouldn't be very effective simply because there are a ton of children, and a dose to knock out an adult could easily kill a child

[Pacifier]

no, the gas was in moscow, i think it was the opera.

targeting a hostpital is a terrible thing to do, on the other hand the russians also a pretty ruthless. but since this is now part of the world wide war against terror all is legal i guess.

[Zeld2.0]

Its times like these you wish Rainbow Six were real

[whocarz]

I fear this is going to end badly. The Russians have a record of spectacular failure with hostage situations.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe...ine/index.html

[Lebell]

Let's spell it out:

Militant

Muslim

Separatists.

[Mephisto2]

Let's spell it out.

What.

Are.

You.

Talking.

About?


Mr Mephisto

[Pacifier]

Putin belives that there are strong connection between his selfmade chechen terrorists and AlKaida. his KGB thinks thats BS. the world is not always so easy as some people want it to be.

@Lebell
yes, and what are you trying to say?

[james t kirk]

There is a story I heard once about a group of Hezbola terrorists who kidnapped some Russians. The Russian special forces flew to Lebanon, kidnapped the brothers of the terrorists, castrated them, sent the goods back to the terrorists with photos and told the terrorists that if they didn't give up their hostages, every male member of their families would be next.

Hostages released, terrorists shot to pieces.

Strange story, don't know if it's true, would't put it past them.

[Mephisto2]

James T Kirk, the story refered to is more or less true. In fact, the KGB kidnapped relatives of the head of Hezbollah and killed one of them, in retribution for the muder of one of their own diplomats. The lead of Hezbollah was let known, in no uncertain terms, that if any of the remaining 3 diplomats were harmed, his three relatives (in KGB "custody" somewhere in Lebannon) would also be killed.

In September 1985, four Soviet diplomats in Beirut were kidnapped by members of Hezbollah. One of them, Arkady Katkov, was shot in the head, and the rest were imprisoned. The terrorists wanted the Soviet Union to bring pressure on Syria to stop giving military support to a rival militia group. The situation was similar to that the United States, France, and other countries faced vis-à-vis the same Iranian-backed Shiite militants. But the Soviet response was different. Working with Syria, the KGB tracked down three young relatives of the Hezbollah leader. The Soviets then, so it is said, mutilated one of the men and sent body parts to the terrorists with a promise that the other two in their care would be treated similarly unless their people were released. That evening, the three diplomats, emaciated, unshaven, barefoot, and wearing dirty track suits, appeared at the gates of the Soviet embassy. Problem solved.

REF: http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/1116140/posts
REF: http://www.almidfarah.fanspace.com/i..._terr_even.htm
REF: http://www.pureliberal.com/recentislamichistory.html


Officially of course, it never happened. I saw one of the people involved on the Lebannese side being interviewed on a BBC documentary about this years ago.


Mr Mephisto

[Seaver]

The Russians are as everybit as ruthless as the Israelies. While we claim never to deal with terrorists, they have no problem sacrificing every person captured to ensure the terrorists that committed the act die.

Lets see here, in one week they blew up two planes, a subway explosion, and now a school taken hostage... man they're going to start feeling the heat REAL soon.

[mirevolver]

Honestly I see this whole Chechnya situation will eventually spiral down to Putin launching a full scale invasion of Chechnya. And who will stop him? The U.N. might try, but Russia holds a veto vote in the security council. The US certainly wouldn't stop him since all he would have to say is that he's fighting terrorism. And China has no interest one way or the other in the matter.

I wouldn't be suprised if the threat of invasion is used as a bargining chip in the negotiations regarding this school. "If you kill the hostages, we invade Chechnya." And after all, the reputation of the brutality and ruthlessness of the Russian military is well known throughout the world.

[irateplatypus]

i think lebell was referencing the many places around the world where groups of muslims are trying to force political agendas through violence.

iraq, saudi arabia, kenya, israel, ethiopia, chechnya, russia, the phillippines etc...

[Pacifier]

Originally Posted by Seaver

The Russians are as everybit as ruthless as the Israelies. While we claim never to deal with terrorists, they have no problem sacrificing every person captured to ensure the terrorists that committed the act die.

yes, they also have no problems to kill a couple of more people and to fake elections to help "freedom" win.
I have no sympathies for those terrorists but I also have no sympathies for russia in that case.

[oktjabr]

Originally Posted by Pacifier

Putin belives that there are strong connection between his selfmade chechen terrorists and AlKaida. his KGB thinks thats BS. the world is not always so easy as some people want it to be.

Naturally it's just a bit of the old realpolitik - linking Chechen rebels to Al Qaeda gives Putin a permission to deal with them like he pleases as it is all linked to the war against terror of the west.

By the way, it's called FSB nowadays. Though I'd like to see where you got the information that FSB disagrees with president Putin.

Addendum - And how would Russia start an invasion of Chechenya? As far as I know it is still a part of Russian Federation and sure as damn still occupied by Russian troops.

[Pacifier]

Originally Posted by oktjabr

By the way, it's called FSB nowadays.

FSB ... KGB ... same shit, different name

Originally Posted by oktjabr

Though I'd like to see where you got the information that FSB disagrees with president Putin.

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/auslan...316062,00.html
sorry no english source.

[OpieCunningham]

Originally Posted by Pacifier

Putin belives that there are strong connection between his selfmade chechen terrorists and AlKaida. his KGB thinks thats BS. the world is not always so easy as some people want it to be.

Ironic how accurately that mirrors the Bush-CIA/Iraq-Al Qaeda situation.

[Zeld2.0]

I miss the days of the ruthless KGB - it seems ever since the Soviet Union fell, they aren't allowed to have ruthless attached to their intelligence agency

[mirevolver]

Originally Posted by oktjabr

Addendum - And how would Russia start an invasion of Chechenya? As far as I know it is still a part of Russian Federation and sure as damn still occupied by Russian troops.

Let me be more clear, they turn what is now a rather passive occupation into a very active military operation. Bring more troops into the area, conduct air strikes, raid homes of people suspected to be involved in the terror movement, level buildings suspected of housing terrorists, basically turn Chechnya into a warzone.

And knowing some of the statements Putin has said in the past, he would probably combine that with an invasion of the nation of Georgia to prevent the terrorists from escaping to the south.

[Zeld2.0]

In theory it would work (the suggested action in Chechnya) though given political problems at home and poor pay/performance of Russian troops in years past... he's going to hesitate a bit (and an election)

[Pacifier]

Originally Posted by mirevolver

Bring more troops into the area, conduct air strikes, raid homes of people suspected to be involved in the terror movement, level buildings suspected of housing terrorists, basically turn Chechnya into a warzone.

As far as I know they have done that already in the past. have you seen picture of grozny?

[OpieCunningham]

Originally Posted by mirevolver

basically turn Chechnya into a warzone.

This event came and passed while Yeltsin was "running" things.

An analogy of the Russian/Chechen situation would be if Texas decided that it was going to secede from the Union. Washington D.C. says no and launches a full scale invasion, completely destroying Houston. The Texans essentially lose, but guerilla fighting from determined rednecks continues for years and years. Eventually, the rednecks start striking at locations outside of Texas, killing civilians to attract attention to their cause. Invading Texas again would do very little, but yes, that is what would be done.

Georgia is not going to be invaded - their new President is strongly pro-Moscow.

[oktjabr]

Originally Posted by OpieCunningham

Georgia is not going to be invaded - their new President is strongly pro-Moscow.

Indeed and the president, Mr. Saakashvili is having some problems with his own separatist areas - which are by the way currently being negotiated by the international community and peacekeeped by Russian UN troops.

Though Georgia isn't actually very stable, after all it isn't long time ago when they had a bloodless coup there.

[powerclown]

Originally Posted by irateplatypus

i think lebell was referencing the many places around the world where groups of muslims are trying to force political agendas through violence.

iraq, saudi arabia, kenya, israel, ethiopia, chechnya, russia, the phillippines etc...

...sudan, bali, yemen, iran, afghanistan, egypt...

What is bewildering about this trend is the fact that educated, moderate muslims seem to be content to watch from the sidelines, showing no resolve when it comes to standing up to the radicals and saying what they are doing is wrong. It is a case of majority reason being held captive by minority radical ideology. Not good.

[OpieCunningham]

Originally Posted by powerclown

What is bewildering about this trend is the fact that educated, moderate muslims seem to be content to watch from the sidelines, showing no resolve when it comes to standing up to the radicals and saying what they are doing is wrong. It is a case of majority reason being held captive by minority radical ideology. Not good.

I'm tired of hearing this.

Countless Muslim organizations have denounced the tactics of Wahhabist terrorists. For some reason this fact is either completely ignored or the complaint is altered to state that they either didn't do so quickly enough or that it wasn't made loud enough.

That it is even a requirement that Muslim organizations denounce the actions of Wahhabist terrorists is absurd. Such a standard is never held to all sects of Christianity when one of those sects performs some bad deed. This standard is born of a complete lack of understanding of the Muslim religion - it is somehow viewed as a cohesive whole which is accountable for any and every action by any one who claims to be acting on the behalf of the mythical whole.

[Mephisto2]

Witness the way that the French Muslim groups are supporting their government and calling for the release of the two French journalists captured in Iraq, even though they oppose the law against religious dress in French schools.

Mr Mephisto

[Lebell]

Originally Posted by irateplatypus

i think lebell was referencing the many places around the world where groups of muslims are trying to force political agendas through violence.

iraq, saudi arabia, kenya, israel, ethiopia, chechnya, russia, the phillippines etc...

Yes, that and also that it is a more complex problem than just "Evil Bush" like it is so often boilded down to here and elsewhere.

(In otherwords, even if Kerry gets elected president, the extremists aren't going to suddenly say, "hey, Kerry's president, let's stop killing Americans!")

[whocarz]

Originally Posted by mirevolver

Let me be more clear, they turn what is now a rather passive occupation into a very active military operation. Bring more troops into the area, conduct air strikes, raid homes of people suspected to be involved in the terror movement, level buildings suspected of housing terrorists, basically turn Chechnya into a warzone.

And knowing some of the statements Putin has said in the past, he would probably combine that with an invasion of the nation of Georgia to prevent the terrorists from escaping to the south.

Where have you been? The Russians have done two, yes TWO, full scale invasions in the past 10 years. Chechnya is fucked, completely. The rebels have been using guerilla warfare against the Russian army since then, and perpetrating terrorist attacks in the Russian interior. The whole situation is a mess. Both sides act like goddamn animals. It's very hard root for either side. The Russians have already done everything you said they should do, raid homes, level safehouses, etc. The Chechens want to have their own country, which does make me lean towards their cause, it's just too bad they have to use such appalling methods to try and obtain their goals. I guess they want to make it so unsavory that Russia finally says fuck it, and lets them have their independence. Only problem is that Russia is being very pigheaded about the whole thing. Chechnya is a wasteland, there is no benifit for Russia to hold on to it. The only reason I can see why Russia doesn't want Chechen independence is because it might start a domino effect of other provinces wanting autonomy.

[Zeld2.0]

Originally Posted by Lebell

Yes, that and also that it is a more complex problem than just "Evil Bush" like it is so often boilded down to here and elsewhere.

(In otherwords, even if Kerry gets elected president, the extremists aren't going to suddenly say, "hey, Kerry's president, let's stop killing Americans!")

I really doubt anyone is actually saying they would go away because of that.

Actually the real issue isn't that, its how to stop it - thats where people differ.

[james t kirk]

Here's an interesting quote from the paper this afternoon....

"Mr. Andreyev said some of the militants had been identified, and investigators were attempting to find their relatives and bring them to the school to help in the negotiations."

Hmmm, I think if I was related to any of these guys, I would be planning a quick vacation right about now. See the previous tactics used by the Russians might leave one a little lighter than the day before.

link....

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl...International/

[james t kirk]

Originally Posted by Lebell

Yes, that and also that it is a more complex problem than just "Evil Bush" like it is so often boilded down to here and elsewhere.

(In otherwords, even if Kerry gets elected president, the extremists aren't going to suddenly say, "hey, Kerry's president, let's stop killing Americans!")

And Kerry is not going to bow to the extremists either. He's as patriotic as Bush, or anyone else.

[powerclown]

breaking news from cnn: over 200 dead in the standoff.

Jesus, why didn't they just raze the school to the ground, I bet there'd be less casualties that way.

Putin. Bravo. Well done.
Mindless idiot.

Pictures, some graphic.

[Seaver]

Putin. Bravo. Well done.

What would you suggest?

Wait them out? They wouldnt accept food to be brought in, starvation is a HORRIBLE way to die.

Negotiate? Why would you want to negotiate with cowards who go after children of all people? It only teaches them that they can do that anytime they want and will get whatever they want.

Gas it? We all know what happened during the Opera, and these little kids would die MUCH faster than the adult capturs.

There's nothing they could have done but storm the place.

[Mephisto2]

Erm... the storming of the school was not planned.

Two cars approached the school, as agreed by negotiators, to pick up the bodies of those killed on Wednesday. For some reason, there was an explosion and a number of hostages made a break for it. The terrorists started shooting at the fleeing hostages (brave men and women shooting kids in the back as they ran away, eh?).

Police, and locals armed with small arms, returned fire at the terrorists and then a large fire-fight erupted. The Special Ops decided they had to storm to prevent the terrorists killing everyone.

This according to all the news I've seen since then. But, to be fair, I haven't checked Fox... :-)


Mr Mephisto

[powerclown]

Originally Posted by Mr Mephisto

Erm... the storming of the school was not planned.

Two cars approached the school, as agreed by negotiators, to pick up the bodies of those killed on Wednesday. For some reason, there was an explosion and a number of hostages made a break for it. The terrorists started shooting at the fleeing hostages (brave men and women shooting kids in the back as they ran away, eh?).

Police, and locals armed with small arms, returned fire at the terrorists and then a large fire-fight erupted. The Special Ops decided they had to storm to prevent the terrorists killing everyone.

This according to all the news I've seen since then. But, to be fair, I haven't checked Fox... :-)


Mr Mephisto

I was going to respond to Seaver but its academic now, reading mephisto's post.

Just for the record, though, here's some suggested reading on how to go about rescuing hostages. And I don't mean to be an asshole about it, I'm trying to point out there is a right way and a wrong way to go about handling this type of situation. The Russians did it the wrong way and everybody died. The Israelis did it the right way, killed all the terroists and freed the hostages.

Overview
The Entebbe Rescue Mission

In-Depth
Entebbe Diary