ecomdan

Hi.

I come from Ireland. In Ireland the only people with access to guns are the army, special divisions of the police force, hunters ( in order to be legally considered a hunter you must first attain written permission from several landowners to hunt on their land. As a hunter the only weapon legally available is a double barreled shotgun ) and criminals.

While I find it unnerving that there are a number of weapons in the hands of those who might intend to use them for something more sinister than sport, I don't feel the need to carry one for my own protection. As is most often the case with shootings in Ireland, you only get shot at if you piss off the wrong people. I choose to avoid all contact with these kind of people.

So, having never really discharged a firearm other than in a video game, tell me: Are guns as much fun in real life? Or does it get boring shooting at tin cans and deer?

DelayedReaction

They are more fun in real life than they are in games like Counter Strike; there's a reason it's a popular sport in the US. It's a skill that takes practice and effort, and is a very fun way to enjoy an afternoon. I also believe it's a necessary skill to have, and that (if you are comfortable with guns) you should take measures to protect yourself.

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MrTuffPaws

What Delayed said, and I would like to add that I personally feel that even if you do not like guns, I still think that you should at least know how to unload one safety. Of course, that is really not an option for you ecomdan

Last I heard, we have over 500 million guns in private ownership here in the states, and that is just an estamate of the ones legally owned.

G5_Todd

i own 2 guns a handgun and a shotgun.....im around them (guns) all the time so they are no big deal to me....if i could have it my way....no civilians would have them....

ecomdan

Absolutely. I think maybe the reason some of you might think its a necessary skill is because firearms are so prolific in your country* there must be some kind of constant worry that any remotely dodgy lookin punk could just pull out a gun and blow your fucking head off for no good reason...

*I just said that assuming most of you are from the US, please correct me if I'm wrong.

zfleebin

Ecomdan: I think you might have watched a a few too many movies. America is actually a very safe place and probably safer than most european countries. With that aside. I shoot fairly often and I do it merely as a hobby. It takes a lot of practice to become completely comfortable and proficient with a firearm. And just like any other hobby it is extremely rewarding when you see the fruits of your work.

G5Todd: If you use history as an example you might find that taking away of civillians guns is an indicator of impending doom.

DelayedReaction

Nope, I'm not afraid at all of where I live. I regularly jog at night, and have walked across campus at 2AM several times. Crime at College Park is on par with the rest of America, and yet I still have never feared for my life around here.

Why would I insist on being armed? It's a question of preparedness. Despite the fact that I don't go out of my way to take chances, I believe every individual has an obligation to know how to protect themselves. Training in the use of a firearm, and then carrying that firearm, is one way to be prepared. I also intend to take training in defensive driving and knife defense when I have the time and money.

Why? Partially because it's fun and I like stuff like that. But also because if you're in a situation where you need it, you will miss not having it if you don't. You want every advantage you can have in life or death situations, and these are easy advantages to get.

One of the reasons I'm so passionate about this is because I have yet to hear of a valid reason to ban the ownership of firearms.

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G5_Todd

believe me...this country would do just fine if civilians didnt have guns.....its just my opinion

but i like the arguement of when the bill of rights was issued it was a long time ago (obviously) and alot has changed we were a country that was not a super power by any means and you needed a gun in certain areas for many reasons.....

those reasons no longer exist....we have supermarkets, 911, and a kickass military......

MSD

Every branch of the government has checks and balances on itself, and that it has on others, the only way that civilians can be sure that the government can not become oppressive is to own firearms.

Additionally, target shooting is a great activity, it doesn't get boring, and hunting gives you the satisfaction of earning your food.

cuervo

G5: Those reasons do exist and will always exist. In a simple context, gun control is an inversely proportional measure of how much a government trusts the people that it governs. If I am trusted to vote, pay taxes, and come to the defense (using a gun, of course) of my country in times of need, shouldn't I be trusted to possess guns for private use?

For the longer answer:
The framers of the US Constitution ultimately had one goal in mind: The power must remain in the hands of the People. As long as the People control the government, all is well. When the governement controls the People, its power will only increase until is becomes uncontrollably oppressive (i.e. tyranny). "People" is capitalized on purpse.

Would we ever reach a situation where I would have to go up against a brigade from the local Army base? Of course not. (I hope. Then again, look up "Bonus Army" on Google.)

On the other hand, should a government fear its citizenry? Hopefully not, but it increases a little bit at a time. The greatest steps in gun control in the U.S. have come at a time when the government was most fearful of civil unrest--post Civil War, the Great Depression, and the late 1960s when there were many riots.

When did Germany inacts its gun control--when the Weimar Republic was trying to maintain power from the rising factions after WWI. Hitler didn't need to enact gun control--it was already there when he took over. No matter the name given it, gun control is simply about control.

homerhop

To get a firearms licence here you only need the permission of 3 landowners or be a member of a gun club.So its not that hard to get a licence here.
As for the enjoyment, I have been shooting since I was sixteen. I find it a great way to relax and the slagging that goes on between all the lads is great.You dont have to be a "hunter" to own a gun here, there are plenty of us shooters who enjoy clay shooting more so than the actual shooting of live game.
I dont know what part of Ireland you are in, but there are 2 good shooting grounds in Dublin, one in Courtlough and one not too far from the airport. You can get some coaching there and 99%(I say 99% because there will always be one bastard in life) of people there would be more than happy to help you along the way.
If clays are not to your liking there is always rifle shooting. A target range is open in Tullowmore, again people there will help you to know end.
We have not any handgun clubs except for I that I have just found out about,due to the troubles, they are not illegal here it is just that the garda will not issue you with a licence, but I think that is being challenged in the courts at the moment. So in a few years time you might, and that is a big might be able to get your hands on a handgun.
As for it getting boring, if it was that easy we would all be world champions

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Dostoevsky

Ecomdan-

To answer the question, "are guns really all that great?"

I would have to answer a simple, "yes."

I love my guns and I love living in a country where we are still hanging on to a Bill of Rights that allows us to possess them and protect ourselves.

tropple

I think so.

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iamnormal

A gun is just a tool. People were killing people before they were invented and people will be killing people after they are band. If someone wants to kill someone it does'nt matter what tool they use does it?
I oun some guns and I don't have any for selfdefence. I have them for hunting and target shooting.

kurty[B]

target shooting, and clay shooting is a grand ol' time!

i do think knowledge of how to unload a gun safely should be something people in general should know, and I also think for gun owners proper cleaning and handling etiquette is very important to know. Hearing stories about people who have shot themselves while cleaning their rifle, or handgun just seems ridiculous to me.

vermin

Shooting a gun is better than you could possibly imagine. The closest you will ever get to having the wizard-like power to point at something and see it destroyed at your whim. It helps if you work on your aim to be able to hit what you point at.

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G5_Todd

id just like to have the option of telling someone to shut up in the movies and not have to worry about getting shot....


but thats just where i live i guess

Da Munk

Banning citizens from owning guns wouldn't really solve that problem, though. That just disarms law-abiding citizens, not the criminals that you're worried about. All that a gun ban does is give the police, military, and criminals more power over the average citizen.

So yes, guns are great in the right hands.

sailor

Yeah, see thats my big problem with gun control. Gun control won't keep guns out of the hands of criminals--if they want a gun, they'll get one. It will primarily keep guns out of the hands of law abiding citizens, who, like those on this board, use their firearms to hunt, target shoot, clay shoot, or plink with.

But at the risk of turning this into a political discussion, Ill stop there So basically, yeah, guns can be a lot of fun. Its a large responsibility, but a lot of fun. I mainly shoot skeet, and have a grand old time doing it

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duckduck

Yes.


And they're so much more.


*cue Meg Ryan orgasm scene*







I dunno about me either.

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Kodega

I love shooting. I've never hunter, nor do I want to, but I love going out to a range and shooting skeet. It's great to get a friend or two and go fire a box or two of ammo each and if you want to up the ante a little, keep score and have the loser buy lunch. None of us own a gun either, we just rent an over-under shotty at the range.

Menoman

Yes its definatly fun. It's nothing like you see in the movies. America is apparently nothing like you see on the news either.

I work midnights truck drivers are constantly coming in and asking for directions, I'm the only person who works this shift where I work. I have zero fear about being shot by them. The only thing I fear is when guns are illegal to own or the liscencing is ludacris so that I can't get one. Then I'll fear, but not for my own personal safety. more for where this country is going when that happens.

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Willravel

I'm moving to Ireland after I finish writing this. My family has owned guns and has been into firearms for several generations. Army familys can be like that. As for myself, I've used several different types in a safe environment (a gun range). To be honest, I think guns are cowardly. Justice at 50 paces just comes off as more of human natures need to perfect and purify violence. I know most people probably think I'm a coward and a fool for saying this, but let me address that. I'm not a coward because I have prevented several violent crimes, without the use of weapons. The fool part is a matter of opinnion, I suppose. No one I've ever met has been in a situation that only guns can solve, outside of the military. I know that there are extreme situations where a gun might be necessary, but usually they involve an aggressor with a gun. "Why do you own a gun?" "The Bill of Rights says I can!!!!" The Bill of Rights is not a reason. Anyone who just spews back crap like this should be forced to not imbreed. The Second Amendment of the Bill of Rights states "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." Remember the Revolutionary War? The French and Indian War had just ended. The British rule was imposing unrepresented taxes on the 13 colonies. The Boston Massacre stirred the American people. This was when the Second Amendment was written. In those times, people needed to defend themselves from everything. Times have changed. The Second Amendment was made to protect Americans not from themselves, but from others. Americans killing each other is crap. This almost infant-like clutching of people to the Second Amendment makes me sick. What REAL right do you have to own guns? What LOGICAL reason is there? “To defend ourselves!!!!” I suppose you want people to build more nuclear weapons to deal with others nuclear weapons. Can’t people understand that is absurd?
So there you go. I don’t think guns are great. I don’t like them much at all.
Oh, Zefleebin, in response to what you said to G5 Todd, something to think about. Every nation in history that has allowed government recognized gay marriges has fallen in one generation. Do you think America will fall apart in one generation?

matteo101

Of course they are not all that great. They are to protect people from other people with guns. Take away guns(handguns) all together and there wouldn't be that problem. Handguns are meant to kill people. You dont kill a dear with a handgun, and I see nothing wrong with hunting.

scout

For the sake of preventing this thread from being hi-jacked and turning into some political trolling nightmare, I'm glad your moving to Ireland. Do you or will you need in monetary assistance in completing this move?

The Supreme Court has already ruled on the militia aspect of your argument. And for the record, it isn't talking about about the National Guard. "The right of the PEOPLE shall not be infringed", how much clearer does it need to be? That spells it out in pretty simple terms.
Why do you feel you must encroach upon the rights of others? I'm sure you do things that I don't necessarily like or approve but you don't see me trying to deny you what brings you happiness. Whatever happened to "live and let live"?

iamnormal

What crazy country is going to attack the US with us citizens armed the way we are. They would have alot of people to fight off.
Or maybe we should ban all guns then put up a big peace sign. When the countries that we raped in the past come a knocking we'll put flowers in thier guns. Then the rainbows come out, birds sing, and all is good.

whocarz

Just to give you an example of why I like my guns, here is something that happened to me last week. I was sitting here, on my computer, at 2 in the morning. Then I hear a diesel engine outside. Strange, since it's so late, and the only time I hear that kind of engine is when the UPS or garbage truck goes by. I peek outside, and parked right outside my house is a pickup truck, 1970-80s style, and the guy in the cab is shining a flashlight into the windows of my house. What the fuck is going on? He drives off, then turns around up the street and comes back, parking infront of my neighbor's house. By this point I have my rifle loaded and locked, and I'm observing him through a small slit in the blinds. He then proceeds to get out of his truck, walks onto my front lawn, still shining that flashlight into the windows. After about a minute, he starts up the walkway to my front door, which is on the left side of my house. I don't think so motherfucker. I threw back the curtains when he was right outside the window and let him see me pointing my assault rifle at his fucking chest. He beat feet back to his truck. It was scary as fuck, because I didn't know if he was going to produce a weapon from his truck or not, and I didn't want to be standing there like a big target, but I also didn't want to kill him, so I let the curtain drop back, and I watched through the slit again as he drove off. I called the cops and told them what happened, and they sent a car around to patrol the neighborhood for the rest of the night.

So, who was this person, and what the hell was he doing prowling around my house so early in the morning? I don't have a damn clue. I've never seen a pickup such as that in my neighborhood before. Was he a delivery guy who got lost and went to the wrong house? A bounty hunter? A theif? A rapist? A murderer? Who knows. But I'll tell you right now, I'm not about to risk the lives of my loved ones to find out. Now, you might say just letting him see me would have made him leave. Maybe. What if he had a gun himself? Then he'd just see a victim standing in the window. What if he just came back later better prepared, confident that he could overpower me? Well, he got the message loud and clear. I have a big gun, and I will shoot you if you try anything. When I bought my rifles, the main reason was to go shooting at the range with them, with a secondary role of home defense. However, I never thought that I'd actually have to use them to deter someone. I am happy that I had them at that moment. Right there, they paid for themselves an infinite amount of times. I hope that I will never actually have to fire at someone to protect my loved ones, myself, or my property, but it makes me feel more comfortable knowing that I have the option to be more that a victim against criminals in my own home.

I don't own a gun because the 2nd amendment says I can, I own it for fun, and for protection. I will never use it to harm an innocent, and you don't have to worry about me going out and preforming vigilante justice with it. I'm not worried about the US military turning on it's citizens either. However, I do think that people are deluded when they think the military could walk right over an armed citizenry. True, most gun owners only own handguns and rifles, and the military has jets, tanks, artillery, etc. However, think about the size of the military. There are only 1.42 million United States military personnel in the world http://web1.whs.osd.mil/mmid/M05/hst0403.pdf
Only about 100,000-150,000 of those people are combat infantry. There are roughly 286 million people that live in the US. Let's assume 1/3 own firearms, that's 95 million people. Even if only 10% decide to take up arms against an oppressive government/military, that's still 9.5 million people. Granted, they won't all be in the same place, but neither would the military. The military would be successful in the opening stages, but it would bog down pretty quickly. It relys on the civilian infastructure to move around, and it isn't autonomous. It gets all it's equipment from civilian manufacturers. So, they would quickly run out of fuel, food, ammunition, etc. The might be able to establish strongpoints around bases and such, but they would not be able to control the civilian populus. How long until they would be overrun and wiped out? Ok, what if the law enforcement agencies help the military? Well, according to this http://www.census.gov/prod/2004pubs/03statab/law.pdf there were only roughly 1 million law officers. Given that they are mainly equipped with handguns and shotguns, they would be swept aside in a massive armed uprising. It would be bloody, just as any civil war is, and you might be quick to point out that most people wouldn't risk their lives, but then I would point out that almost no one in the military would follow orders to kill other Americans. Simply put, the United States military could not beat the United States, and this is largely due to the fact that we are an armed country.

Now, take a country with very few to no armed citizens (note: modern weapons, swords and the like don't count). The military would walk right over them. There might be isolated cases of people capturing military equipment after taking massive casualties, but in the end, they would be oppressed and put under the heel of the government.

That is my belief, and that is why I'm wary of gun control. As long as it makes the government think twice, I'm all for an armed populous. On that note, if the government wants my guns, they can come try to take them.

__________________
If there exists anything mightier than destiny, then it is the courage to face destiny unflinchingly. -Geibel

Despise not death, but welcome it, for nature wills it like all else. -Marcus Aurelius

Come on, you sons of bitches! Do you want to live forever? -GySgt. Daniel J. "Dan" Daly

Kurtz

I agree 100% with the thought of guns being tools, nothing more. I own several guns and target shoot whenever I can. I don't want to hunt, I have no intrest in violence. I don't feel a need to own a gun for protection. I don't feel a need to own a lawn mower.

In my experence people who have any real knowlege of gun use or ownership can recognize that there is nothing evil about a hunk of steel. Violence comes from humans, it always has. I'm not a gun nut, I'll never have anything to do with the NRA, but it really bothers me when my Liberal friends (I'm also a big time liberal) act like it's a given that guns cause crime and that only crazy rednecks own guns.

Are guns that great? For me, a gun isn't much of anything. I think shooting is great. I think that most shooters are very responsable and safty minded people who are great to be around. If it's not for you, that's cool too.

Willravel

Thank you, Scout, for proving my point. You tried to argue with a point I never even hinted at. The only mention of militia was in my quoting the second amendment. What I was saying, or rather writing, was that the time in which the amendment was put into effect was a different time in history, in respect to physical dangers that could only be defended against with guns. I haven't encroached on anyones rights here. I didn't take anyones gun. I was practicing freedom of speech. Are you encroaching on my rights by telling me I can't say that I don't like guns? Of course not.
Thank you whocarz for puting up a decent argument for the side of gun ownership. I appreciate it when someone can put thoughts together logically and present a case.
In response to your post, I have to say I'm glad you and your family are okay. Yes there are some really dangerous people out there."What if he had a gun himself? Then he'd just see a victim standing in the window. What if he just came back later better prepared, confident that he could overpower me?" Interesting. So you say there should be no gun control, so you can defend youself from people that shouldn't have guns. "I'm not worried about the US military turning on it's citizens..." I agree. I trust the US military. "As long as it makes the government think twice, I'm all for an armed populous. On that note, if the government wants my guns, they can come try to take them." Wait. I'm not sure I understand you. You are not worried about the US military turning on its citizens, yet you own a gun to make the government think twice about "walking over you". I think that there are plenty of places in the world where a poor military and/or police forces make gun ownership necessary.
I don't think that the US is one of those places.
DO NOT GET ME WRONG. I am glad that you had a good offence as a defence in the case you mentioned. You had a last resort to defend yourself. Wouldn't you feel safer if you knew that guy outside your house couldn't have a gun? Would it still be necessary for you to own guns for defensive purpouses?

thriolith

I prefer swords, much prettier.

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- Thriolith

Da Munk

Unfortunately, a ban on guns doesn't keep them out of the hands of people who shouldn't have them. Just like making drugs illegal doesn't keep people from taking them. A ban on guns to keep them away from criminals is great in theory, but impossible to actually achieve.

ecomdan

I don't think that the most important aspect of gun control should necessarily be keeping them out of the hands of criminals. But rather, keeping them out of the hands of irresponsible adults and innocent children. Please don't take this as a personal attack on any of you gun owners here on the board, but I really think that children should not be raised in an environment where firearms are present.

I grew up without them, and without fear of them. Should I ever take a trip to the US I'll probably go to a shooting range to play with some high-power rifles, but I'll never actually buy my own gun.

Thanks, everyone, for all your feedback. Lots of valid points and stuff... I'd love to have some witty anecdote to really end this thread properly, but I've drawn a blank. I'll leave it up to someone else.

Willravel

How about this witty remark:Thant was Zen. This is Tao.

zfleebin

Willravel: I think that you are mistaking what I said for a random correlation. The process of taking away the the guns of civillians is a tactic that governments have used in the past to bolster their power. The comparison you made, in my opinion, is a spurious correlation at best. To put that more plainly, I believe that the introduction of gay marriage laws can not reasonably be considered the true reason for the downfall of a government. Those laws could be viewed as indirectly involved but serve more as an extraneous variable.

Kurtz

Ecomdan, did you mean that kids shouldn't have access to guns, or that they shouldn't even be in their presence?

If you meant that children should have no access to firearms, you'll be pleased to know that every American firearms maker includes well constructed locks with their firearms that render the gun inoperable. And I don't know a single gun owner that doesn't keep their guns locked up, unloaded, and out of reach. NO responsible gun owner ever allows a child acess to a stored firearm.

If you meant that children shouldn't be in the general vicinity of guns, would you please explain why? I ask because I know other people (most of them very smart) who hold that belief, but have never really been able to articulate it in a way I can understand.

BTW, have any of you ever noticed how the NRA ignores the words “well regulated” in the second amendment? I know a whole bunch of NRA members who have no problem at all with gun control, only with gun banning. In fact, most of the gun owners I know favor more laws to keep guns out of the hands of criminals and children. I wouldn’t bother saying that normally, but it occurs to me that some of the Europeans hear have as twisted a idea of gun owners as we do of Europeans.

And to throw one more little thing in, what about the right of property? Life, liberty, and property are the most basic rights we recognize over here in the US. A gun is certainly a piece of property, and capable of doing less damage than a car or a tank of gasoline. Why do people retreat to the second amendment instead of arguing that people have the same right to a gun that they do a Porche?

Lebell

Ahem.

Political comments aside (which belong in "Politics"), yes, guns are extremely fun to shoot (and no, I don't mean hunting, which I don't do).

Machine guns are even more fun to shoot, especially if you have a few acres and some propane bottles!

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whocarz

Thinking that passing laws to stop criminals from doing whatever is silly. They are criminals. They don't give a damn about laws. We have laws saying you can't murder/rape/rob/etc. yet criminals do these things all the time.

__________________
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Despise not death, but welcome it, for nature wills it like all else. -Marcus Aurelius

Come on, you sons of bitches! Do you want to live forever? -GySgt. Daniel J. "Dan" Daly

Willravel

Did you just use 'bolster' and 'spurious' on an internet forum? No need to impress. I want everyone to understand what we're trying to say.
Governments in the past have used this tactic to tear its citizens away from their freedoms in the past, but what we are talking about is THIS government. Thus the homosexual correlation. What I was trying to point out is that with the comparison was that things that have happened in the past do not always repeat themselves. If the US government were to, hypothetically, take away gun rights from its civilians, I don't think it will be an act to control. It would most likely be a last resort against gun violence. Understand? I suppose what you were trying to tell me in so many words was that you wouldn't trust the American government if they were to take away our gun rights. We can agree to disagree on this one because neither one of us could possible prove our side conclusively. Bottom line, I beleive that your assumption that because other civilizations have used a gun ban as a tool for control, the US would would use a gun ban as a tool for control is just as baseless as my comment on gay marriges (which, by the way, I have no opinnions on either way) connection to governmental colapse. They are both government implemented rules that could be considered an act of control, and both have had disasterous results in the past. It's really not such a spurious correlation when you think about it in those terms. It is in these terms when the comparison becomes valid to the argument on the whole.
Kurtz: Interesting point. Thank you for not hiding behind the second amendment. I hadn't thought of gun ownership rights as in 'life, liberty, and the persuit of property (happyness?)'. Oh well, I'm tired of speechafying. Goodnight.

Menoman

Try again, I've dropped my last 4 deep with a 44 handgun.

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iamnormal

How can takeing one tool(guns) away stop people from just useing a different tool?
Can any of you answer this?

Yes guns can kill. So do alot of other things. I for one know more people that have died from other things than guns than that have died because of guns.
Guns are used for fun and sport. There is a feeling of power holding a explosion in your hands. To be able to be in one spot and touch something far away. The gun needs some care takeing to it to keep it working good.
Hunting is a whole different thing. It's not about going out and killing something. It's about being out in nature. It takes quite a bit of time. When you do kill something and just before some strange hormones go off in your body.
Handguns can be used for hunting. You have to check you local laws on what guns can be used for hunting. Some places only shotguns are legal to hunt with. Thats because if someone missed with a rifle and there is nothing to stop the bullet it can still be lethal for over a mile.