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Deceptions by "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth" are surfacing

Quote:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...erry_critic_dc

Records Contradict Kerry Critic's Charges -Report

Thu Aug 19, 5:56 AM ET
Add U.S. National - Reuters to My Yahoo!

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Military records contradict a critic's charge that U.S. Democratic presidential hopeful John Kerry (news - web sites) did not come under fire during the battle that resulted in military honors for Kerry, The Washington Post reported on Thursday.

Larry Thurlow, who commanded a Navy boat alongside Kerry in Vietnam, has disputed that the Massachusetts Democratic senator was shot at during the March 1969 raid that resulted in Bronze Stars to both men.

But Thurlow's military records, partially obtained under the Freedom of Information Act by The Washington Post, contain references to "enemy small arms and automatic fire" directed at "all units" of the five-boat flotilla, the newspaper says.

Kerry has made frequent references to his Vietnam war experience during his campaign to make the case for his aptitude as a military leader. Thurlow is a member of Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, a group that has sponsored a television commercial questioning Kerry's war record.

Quote:

http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGB9ATWE2YD.html

WASHINGTON (AP) - Military records appear to contradict claims by a vocal critic of Sen. John Kerry that the Democratic presidential candidate lied about coming under gunfire during a mission in Vietnam, according to The Washington Post.

The newly obtained records of Larry Thurlow show that he, like Kerry, won a Bronze Star for the same engagement and that Thurlow's citation said he came under "constant small arms fire," the newspaper reported Thursday.

Thurlow, also like Kerry, commanded a Navy Swift boat during the war. Thurlow swore in an affidavit last month that Kerry was "not under fire" when he rescued Lt. James Rassmann from the Bay Hap River.

Thurlow's records, obtained by the Post under the Freedom of Information Act, include references to "enemy small arms and automatic weapons fire" directed at all five boats in the flotilla that day. In his Bronze Star citation, Thurlow is praised for helping a damaged Swift boat "despite enemy bullets flying about him."

Thurlow is a leading member of Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, a public advocacy group of Vietnam veterans who have aired a television advertisement attacking Kerry's war record.

Kerry has described how his boat came under fire from the river banks after a mine explosion disabled another U.S. Swift boat. Kerry and members of his crew say the firing continued as Kerry leaned over to fish out Rassman, who was blown overboard in another explosion.

Thurlow described Kerry's Bronze Star citation as "totally fabricated," saying "I never heard a shot."

Thurlow, a registered Republican, said he is angry with Kerry for his antiwar activities after his return to the United States, especially his claim that U.S. troops committed war crimes with the knowledge of their officers up the chain of command.

Thurlow told the Post that he got the award for helping to rescue the boat that was mined.

"This casts doubt on anybody's awards," he said. "It is sickening and disgusting."

He said he believed his award would be fraudulent if it was based on coming under enemy fire.

"We weren't under fire," he insisted.

Thurlow said he lost his Bronze Star citation more than 20 years ago. He said he would not authorize release of his military records because he feared the Kerry campaign would discredit him.

Members of Kerry's crew have said Kerry is telling the truth. Rassman said he has vivid memories of enemies firing at him from both banks.

Quote:

http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=231

note: This is a long article, click the link for the rest of it.

Summary

A group funded by the biggest Republican campaign donor in Texas began running an attack ad Aug. 5 in which former Swift Boat veterans claim Kerry lied to get one of his two decorations for bravery and two of his three purple hearts.
But the veterans who accuse Kerry are contradicted by Kerry's former crewmen, and by Navy records.

One of the accusers says he was on another boat "a few yards" away during the incident which won Kerry the Bronze Star, but the former Army lieutenant whom Kerry plucked from the water that day backs Kerry's account. In an Aug. 10 opinion piece in the conservative Wall Street Journal , Rassmann (a Republican himself) wrote that the ad was "launched by people without decency" who are "lying" and "should hang their heads in shame."

And on Aug. 19, Navy records came to light also contradicting the accusers. One of the veterans who says Kerry wasn't under fire was himself awarded a Bronze Star for aiding others "in the face of enemy fire" during the same incident.

I added some bold for emphasis in this next one

Quote:

http://news.findlaw.com/ap_stories/a...000007_11.html

Military Documents Contradict Kerry Critic

WASHINGTON (AP) - A Vietnam veteran who claims Sen. John Kerry lied about being under fire during a Mekong Delta engagement that won Kerry a Bronze Star was under constant fire himself during the same skirmish, according to the man's own medal citation, a newspaper reported.

The newly obtained records of Larry Thurlow show that he, like Kerry, won a Bronze Star in the engagement and that Thurlow's citation said he also was under attack, The Washington Post reported Thursday.

Thurlow, also like Kerry, commanded a Navy Swift boat during the Vietnam War. Thurlow swore in an affidavit last month that Kerry was "not under fire" when he rescued Lt. James Rassmann from the Bay Hap River.

Thurlow's records, obtained by the Post under the Freedom of Information Act, include references to "enemy small arms and automatic weapons fire" directed at all five boats in the flotilla that day. In his Bronze Star citation, Thurlow is praised for helping a damaged Swift boat "despite enemy bullets flying about him."

The records said Thurlow's actions "took place under constant enemy small arms fire," which Thurlow ignored in providing immediate assistance to the disabled boat and its crew.

Thurlow is a leading member of Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, a public advocacy group of Vietnam veterans who have aired a television advertisement attacking Kerry's war record.

Kerry has described how his boat came under fire from the river banks after a mine explosion disabled another U.S. Swift boat. Kerry and members of his crew say the firing continued as Kerry leaned over to fish out Rassmann, who was blown overboard in another explosion.

Thurlow described Kerry's Bronze Star citation as "totally fabricated," saying "I never heard a shot."

Thurlow, a registered Republican, said he was angry with Kerry for his anti-war activities after his return to the United States, especially his claim that U.S. troops committed war crimes with the knowledge of their officers up the chain of command.

Thurlow told the Post that he got the award for helping to rescue the boat that was mined.

"This casts doubt on anybody's awards," he said. "It is sickening and disgusting."

He said he believed his own award would be "fraudulent" if it was based on coming under enemy fire.

"We weren't under fire," he insisted, speculating that Kerry could have been the source of at least some of the language used in the citation.

Thurlow said he lost his Bronze Star citation more than 20 years ago. He said he would not authorize release of his military records because he feared the Kerry campaign would discredit him.

Members of Kerry's crew have said Kerry is telling the truth. Rassmann said he has vivid memories of enemies firing at him from both banks.

For the record, I don't support Kerry and I don't support Bush.

I think I can sum this up pretty well in just a couple of sentences. The organization, while calling themselves "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth," would more accurately describe themselves with the name "Swift Boat Veterans for Bush."

Aye. If GW et al still refuse to condemn what amounts to outright lies, it would be close enough to an endorsement with this being in the public's eye as it is.

Do you have any idea how inaccurate many citations are? Citation write ups have a long history of being politicized for any number of reasons and in many cases have been outright wrong. Commanders wanting operations to be looked at as a success, officers wanting to get their men recognition, hell there have been cases of the wrong citation write up being presented to soldiers and the powers that be have no desire to go through the hassle of correcting it.

Just because it's written in a citation does not make it fact.

This is far from proof positive of lies and the explanation of the verbage coming from medals awarded at the same time is just as likely as any.

But people will believe what they want to believe.

Here's an article that touches on the concept of Medal Inflation (which has been around forever) as it relates to the Iraq war:

Quote:

Too many medals?
In the military, a debate is raging over how and why
honors are bestowed for combat in the Iraq war

Capt. Ernie Arzabal’s setting was different -- Vietnam, 1970 -- but the story familiar. Flying a light observation helicopter, Arzabal “repeatedly exposed himself” to enemy fire in order to rescue wounded American troops.

These actions earned both men the Distinguished Flying Cross, a decoration given to a relative handful of soldiers since Charles Lindbergh won the first for his trans-Atlantic solo flight in 1927. Since then, through World War II, Korea, Vietnam, the Gulf and all the engagements in between, right through the Afghan campaign, only 3,300 DFC’s were awarded, according to the Distinguished Flying Cross Society, an organization of DFC recipients.

Yet since March 2002, the Air Force has awarded 463 of these coveted decorations, angering some veterans and rekindling a debate over how and why these honors are bestowed.

'Medals inflation?'
More than 69,000 awards and other honors have been handed out by the Air Force for the Iraq war, according to Air Force Capt. Richard Johnson. The list also includes four Air Force Crosses, one step below the Medal of Honor, plus 21 Silver Stars and over 1,900 Bronze Stars.

The Army trails just behind with 40,000 medals issued and approved, including 111 Silver Stars and more than 13,000 Bronze Stars.

“It’s absolutely outrageous,” says retired Army Col. David Hackworth, who styles himself as the most decorated soldier in U.S. military history as well as the unofficial watchdog of military heraldry.

“In World War II, when I saw a Distinguished Flying Cross, that meant the guy had made 25 or 30 missions over dangerous places like Hamburg or Berlin,” he says. “Those places sometimes had 50 percent casualty rates.

“Now, they give medals out to guys who fly bombers invisible to radar whose bombs miss Saddam and kill civilians in a restaurant. It’s an outrage.” The Air Force awarded Distinguished Flying Crosses to the crew of a B-2B bomber that destroyed a Baghdad restaurant last April thought to contain Saddam Hussein. Saddam was not there, but 16 civilians, including an infant, died in the attack.

Hackworth, who fought in World War II, Korea and Vietnam – and appears ready to go to Iraq at any moment – has made his share of enemies over the years. His years of combat in Vietnam turned him into a scathing critic of the U.S. military’s brass and won him a reputation for shooting from the hip. In 1996, he threatened to expose then-Chief of Naval Operations Mike Boorda for wearing decorations he did not win. Boorda killed himself.

But Hackworth's concerns are shared by more conventional heroes.

Col. Jack Jacobs, who received the nation’s highest medal, the Medal of Honor, during his Vietnam years, agrees with some of the criticism.

“It’s an age old problem with the Army and the Air Force, too,” he says. “The authority to approve most awards is at a very low level, and that has a tendency to increase their frequency. Plus, there’s always a political motive, or component, to giving out awards, to keep morale high and create a positive story for the home front.”

Bad analogy?
Capt. Johnson, who works at the U.S. Central Air Force’s (CENTAF) awards processing unit at Shaw Air Force Base in South Carolina, argues that it is not valid to take a medal like the DFC and compare what it took to get one in 1945 with the actions that lead commanders to nominate their troops for one today.

“The responsibility is on individual commanders out in the field to nominate their subordinates,” the captain says. “There are standards for each decoration, and they are clearly laid out. If a board of review determines the action meets those standards, the award is approved.”

Indeed, medals controversies are as old as the U.S. military.

Back in the early days of World War II, just after American troops landed in North Africa in 1942, two generals traveled to the front and promptly issued about 60 officers with the Legion of Merit – Officer Degree, an extremely high honor meant for senior officers. Just about none of those receiving the medal met the qualifications for it, however. As the Army’s own official history recounts, “President Roosevelt was annoyed, however, he did not rescind the awards.”

"Generals and other officers have been putting themselves in for medals their dead troops really deserved since the dawn of time,” says a senior Marine officer. “There may be no way to stop it, because it is human nature.”

The Marines, however, appear to have found a way to keep inflation in check.

Stephen Mackey, director of the Marine Corps medals and decorations branch, says the Corps has issued no Silver Stars or Navy Crosses to date for Iraq war service.

“We have a good number of medals in the pipeline, and it represents about the right scale given the scope and fighting the Marines did,” he says.

Medals to date include 200 Bronze Stars, 447 Purple Hearts, a number of air and commendation medals. A bit over 1,000 in all.

“You look at the Air Force and the number of medals it’s giving out, and then you look at the Marines, who still apply reasonable standards,” grumbles Hackworth. You can’t tell me that these Air Force guys have seen more blood and fire than the Marines who fought their way all the way to Baghdad.”

"Thank God for the Marines," says a retired Navy officer. "They haven't changed their uniforms or their world view in 50 years. Why should they change the way they hand out medals?"

Manipulating events?
By far the most controversial case in the current war involves Army Private Jessica Lynch and her unit, which became lost in Iraq and later surrendered after a firefight in which 11 of her comrades died.

Clarence Pressgrove, who was awarded a Distinguished Flying Cross recently decades after he risked his life to save the crew of his B-29 bomber, expressed the outrage that many veterans felt after Lynch and other members of her 507th Maintenance Company convoy were given Bronze Stars.

Speaking on a Florida radio talk show just after being awarded his own medal, Pressgrove said Lynch “was used as a pawn by some very powerful people.”

“She didn’t deserve or earn this medal,” he said.

Jacobs, now an MSNBC military analyst, says the idea of giving medals to units who get lost or wind up captured is a relatively new phenomenon.

“The guys flying the EP-3 over China got medals, and so did those soldiers who drove the wrong way and wound up captured by Serbians during the Kosovo war,” he says. “It’s like Jessica Lynch, which is a perfect example of the political motive, of using war as a promotion medium. Sell the idea to the public that it’s heroic, then you hand out some awards, and you cheapen them by doing that.”

In fact, another officer close to the Lynch case says senior Army officers were split fairly evenly over the issue of whether some in her unit should have been disciplined or even court-martialed for their conduct in captivity.

Lynch herself has criticized the inflated accounts of her captivity and rescue proffered by Pentagon spokesmen during the war. And like her fellow captive and Pfc. Shoshana Johnson, she rejects the idea that she is a hero.

"When people put that label on me, I reject it wholeheartedly," Johnson told a Black History Month celebration on Long Island last week. "The real heroes are the young men who rescued me, the soldiers who paid the ultimate price...”

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4243092/

Medical reports for his injuries cover his Purple Hearts (including the shrapnel that is still in his leg)
Eyewitness accounts from his crew and the man whose life he saved cover the stars.
I'll trust the account of the guy who dove to the bottom of the river repeatedly to avoid the bullets whizzing around his head.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Superbelt

That's all well and good. As stated previously this all is a non-issue for me. The medals went through the proper channels. Bush's discharge went through the proper channels. Does that make them both absolutely 100% true? Nope but they are both acceptable to me.

The problem I have is people claiming so and so lied and offering up "evidence" that is inconclusive. I guess one of my pet peeves is consistency of standards. Rather than challenge the selective use of these standards people are more than happy to go along with whatever the parties put out when it supports their point of view.

Last night, I happened to have CBS on when the news came on. They talked about this controversy and showed most of the swift boat ad. They showed 10 seconds of kerry saying his "bring it on" speach. The whole story was probably 2-3 minutes. They said how the polls are now even at 46/45 Bush up. They said support for Kerry by veterans has dropped about 20 percent since the DNCC.

They didn't say ANYTHING about how the swift boat people are a bunch of liars or anything about how there is proof that Kerry is a "hero".

And who here will claim to me that the media has a liberal bias?

Quote:

Originally Posted by rukkyg

They said how the polls are now even at 46/45 Bush up.

A nationwide number is meaningless; remember, Gore won the majority vote, but didn't get the tally of electoral votes. Today, based on the most recent polls (as tabulated by the Current Electoral Vote Predictor 2004), the count is Kerry 301, Bush 213. Also from that website, the Electoral College Graph shows how the count has changed daily since May 24.

Quote:

Originally Posted by redlemon

That makes me feel a lot better. But still, the ad has had quite an effect on the popular vote, reguardless of whether it matters or not.

These ads annoy the hell out of me. It does not matter one lick to me what Bush or Kerry did or did not do with their time in the military. What can they do for my country NOW?

Can't we just talk about the real issues, and not something that did or did not happen 30 years ago?

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrSelfDestruct

The organization, while calling themselves "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth," would more accurately describe themselves with the name "Swift Boat Veterans for Bush."

Some of them are in fact either directly or indirectly related to the Bush administration in some way:

http://graphics7.nytimes.com/images/...wift_graph.gif

Credit: NY Times

I don't really care what anybody says, he still went, and he served, because that was what he thought he should do. He went, served, and didn't like what was going on, so when he got back he protested the war, with alot of others. I don't think that is hypocracy, that is changing your mind about something after being truly informed.

i smelled karl rove from the start, somehow. his handiwork gives a particular aroma.

Trying to smear a group of veteran's for smearing a veteran?

I propose we all reserve judgement based on what you are able to ascertain.

Kerry's initial inaction in reacting to this group (I'm too good for them attitude), sealed the deal for me. They had something legitimite to say. His 'on the defensive' posture now even reinforces it.

If manufactured citations (ALL citations are manufactured ) and specious and reaching flow charts indicate that the 'swift boat vets' are misguided, and that this is enough evidence to for you, that Kerry is an honorable man. Make sure he's got something positive and improving for this country and vote for him.

Using 527's for your own game and then inventing a link which doesn't exist from another 527 to your opponent, AND DENOUNCING IT, is dishonorable.

Smearing vets under the guise of protecting vet's from smear is also dishonorable.

Thank you Sen Kerry for your four honorable months in Vietnam. You really stepped up to the plate. Thank you for your sacrifice and injury as you took out that poor Vietnamese village's rice supply. Thank you for returning to the scene of the firefight you fled after the engagement was over to pull a guy out of the water. Thank you for returning home and accusing your fellow servicemen of war attrocities. Thank you for having only committed small one's yourself. You've served our Country well. You WILL NOT get my vote for President. I find you to be an elitist, lying, sack of pandering shit, career politician with nothing different or new to offer this country and no plan for anything except sowing seeds of doubt on what is already happening (and happened). Your lackluster 20 senatorial year career of special interest appeasing, shows nothing of interest, except for the fact that nothing of interest exists. Thank you for at least attaching your name to some of McCain's POW/MIA legislation.

I'll give Kerry his props for service and his chest junk from that time. All of his brothers from Swift Boat Vet's get the same.

Kerry wants to be president, and those four months in 'Nam don't cut it for me. My disdain for Bush is not enough to put this worthless senator into his shoes. Not by a long shot.

I have yet to see anything reasonable that indicates the SBV are either Bush's doing or even in anyway incorrect.

-bear

Thank you Sen Kerry for your four honorable months in Vietnam. One year, seven months actuallyYou really stepped up to the plate. Thank you for your sacrifice and injury as you took out that poor Vietnamese village's rice supply. Wha? Thank you for returning to the scene of the firefight you fled after the engagement was over to pull a guy out of the water. Fled?:rolleyes: Well, that individual who he pulled out of the water thanks him and thinks he got there as quick as he could Thank you for returning home and accusing your fellow servicemen of war attrocities. He wasn't accusing everyone. He was testifying for specific individuals who did those war crimes. They were all in that room there with him. He DOES imply that it was widespread. And everyone here knows it was. If you deny that you are deluding yourself. There are enough other stories out there of war atrocities to make that criticism you just gave him look foolish Thank you for having only committed small one's yourself. You've served our Country well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrSelfDestruct

I think I can sum this up pretty well in just a couple of sentences. The organization, while calling themselves "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth," would more accurately describe themselves with the name "Swift Boat Veterans for Bush."

My thoughts exactly.

Karl and his puppet have no interest in the truth. They are behind this without a doubt.

Quote:

Originally Posted by j8ear

Trying to smear a group of veteran's for smearing a veteran?

Trying to expose a group of liars who are lying about another liar.

This has nothing to do with my opinion of veterans, this has to do with mudslinging and lies in the campaign process. Plenty has been said about Kerry's bullshit, so I thought it would be fair to expose some of the bullshit being thrown at him.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrSelfDestruct

Trying to expose a group of liars who are lying about another liar.

Fair and true enough.

Either way you slice it, Kerry doesn't get my vote, as he is not worthy, in any way, shape or form to lead this country, imho. HE has proposed absolutely nothing innovative or new, now or in the past. Nothing.

Nor do the SBV...

That doesn't discount the right they earned to say what ever they want to prevent Kerry's election OR assist with bush's re-election. They are entitled, afaic, and fuck kerry for belittling and discounting them, and further slinging unsubstantiated lies about them and who they are funded by. By unsubstantiated I mean ZERO evidence of a connection between the current administration and this group. ZERO.

Those of you who can "smell" Karl Rove or "taste" this persons complicity or "feel" that persons involvement should take your trolls over to tiltled nonsense. Especially when you've the same sense to connect the same dots incorrectly in more then one thread.

John Kerry is now officially a sack of fucking garbage. I wouldn't piss in his mouth if his teeth were on fire. He sickens me with his hypocracy and whining. That whiny little bitch just filed a complaint with the FEC, because someone else is playing almost as dirty as he is.

Waaaaaaaaaahhhhhh. Fucking pussy.

-bear

Who needs new ideas when Bush has taken us in to the past 20 years? 4 year old ideas are still better than what Bush has done.

Quote:

That doesn't discount the right they earned to say what ever they want to prevent Kerry's election OR assist with bush's re-election.

Slander is not a right, it's a priveledge you're entitled to untill the offended party throws a lawsuit at you. However, Kerry can't and won't file a lawsuit against the group so close to election day.

Edit: I'll be damned, I spoke too soon.

Reuters

Quote:

FORT MYERS, Fla. (Reuters) - Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry asked the Federal Election Commission on Friday to force Republican critics to withdraw ads challenging his military service, and accused the Bush campaign of illegally helping coordinate the attacks.
The Kerry campaign said it filed the complaint against the group behind the ads, Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, "for violating the law with inaccurate ads that are illegally coordinated with the Bush-Cheney presidential campaign and Republican National Committee."

The campaign said there is "overwhelming evidence" that the group is coordinating its spending on advertising and other activities with the President Bush's campaign for reelection.

Bush campaign spokesman Scott Stanzel denied any coordination with the Swift Boat group, called it "a frivolous complaint."

Bush and a top adviser have long-standing ties to people behind the advertisements, which claim Kerry lied about his Vietnam War service record, but the campaign denies any part in the ads themselves.

Quote:

Originally Posted by j8ear

John Kerry is now officially a sack of fucking garbage. I wouldn't piss in his mouth if his teeth were on fire. He sickens me with his hypocracy and whining. That whiny little bitch just filed a complaint with the FEC, because someone else is playing almost as dirty as he is.

Waaaaaaaaaahhhhhh. Fucking pussy.

-bear

I had to delete my reply...as it was degrading , and unacceptable in this forum.

still....perhaps it would benefit us all to look at the above post , and realize the direction this thread is going.

Quote:

Originally Posted by j8ear

That doesn't discount the right they earned to say what ever they want to prevent Kerry's election OR assist with bush's re-election. They are entitled, afaic, and fuck kerry for belittling and discounting them, and further slinging unsubstantiated lies about them and who they are funded by. By unsubstantiated I mean ZERO evidence of a connection between the current administration and this group. ZERO.

Those of you who can "smell" Karl Rove or "taste" this persons complicity or "feel" that persons involvement should take your trolls over to tiltled nonsense. Especially when you've the same sense to connect the same dots incorrectly in more then one thread.

John Kerry is now officially a sack of fucking garbage. I wouldn't piss in his mouth if his teeth were on fire. He sickens me with his hypocracy and whining. That whiny little bitch just filed a complaint with the FEC, because someone else is playing almost as dirty as he is.

Waaaaaaaaaahhhhhh. Fucking pussy.

-bear

feel better?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Journeyman

Slander is not a right.[/url]

Slander is a crime which has yet to be established as relevant here. Don't bullshit a bullshitter with bullshit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tecoyah

I had to delete my reply...as it was degrading , and unacceptable in this forum.

still....perhaps it would benefit us all to look at the above post , and realize the direction this thread is going.

What direction is that? Reality?

thanks for the troll.

Quote:

Originally Posted by filtherton

feel better?

No better, no worse. I would definately feel better if more people opened their eyes and see this guy for what he is. Worthless, characterless, panderer. He has done nothing for anybody and I don't think he ever will.

It was me who denegrated this thread into an anti-kerry spectacle. I apologize. This is how I feel about this subject of the SBV....and with the constant misinformation campaign about connections, operatives, and Rove and evil Bush, so completely baseless and inaccurate, sometimes the folly of your inspiration needs to be pointed out bluntly.

-bear

Do you have some secret knowledge about the accusations on either side to which you alone are privvy, Bear? Or are you going to tell us that your version of reality is the One True Version? The New York Times chart shows clear connections between Rove and SBVT that either exist or were invented by the Times. If they're false, then they should be provably so. Either way, invective doesn't help us get to the bottom of it.

The obvious distaste you feel towards Mr Kerry is not the issue taken up by my post, Rather I was addressing the nasty, and for the most part, pointless diatribe you used to profess your opinion. If my reply was interpreted as a troll, my intent was otherwise. I was hoping ( fruitlessly) to stop the degradation of a previously enlightening thread.
Obviously to no avail....

I will take my leave, please continue.

you guys are getting a little out of hand...thread closed...