Nude pyramids or beheading?
 

If the beheading of Nick Berg was in “retaliation” for subjecting Iraqi’s (innocent or otherwise) to nude pyramids, wouldn’t a more appropriate response be subjecting him to a weird Iraqi fraternity initiation?

After watching the beheading of Nick Berg and viewing the images of the "tortured" Iraqi’s, I had to ask the question: Which is worse?

If you detect a hint of sarcasm in this post you are probably right.

I'm guessing 20 posts and this thread is gonzo,...LOCKED.

lets talk about the relative morality of preemptively striking another country with full military force...

I don't condone either.

I also think I should leave it right there as I really don't want to get on my soap box over who has the right to treat people how they like and who sets the rules of what is 'bad'.

Anyway another 15 posts or so before the flaming starts....

We as a people and supposedly the greatest country cannot treat another's culture and belief's less than our own.

While chopping off a head is severe in any culture, it is no better or worse than what we did. True we may not have killed anyone but we did torture them mentally and physically and that is not something to be sarcastic about.

Mental torture can be worse than any death torture as those men may relive that torture every day for the rest of their lives. Is that any worse than killing them? Do they deserve that fate anymore than Berg deserved to be beheaded?

I am in no way condoning what happened to Berg, I just think to make light of the torture we gave the Iraqi prisoners is just as bad. But what's worse is the attitudes of some who do not see the torture as being truly evil and making things so much worse for all of humanity.

If the tables were turned perhaps you would understand.

I'd just like to say if I had got on my soap box I would echo exactly what you've put. I couldn't have said it better myself.

This is another serious escalation which truly saddens me. To think that we're all supposed to part of the same species but can do such evil things too each other (I'm talking about the torture as well as the murder).

I'm sure everyone will draw their own conclusions.

Where is Seretogis' troll?

Thank you pan6467 great post!

Re: Nude pyramids or beheading?
 

Really? I'm well versed in Muslim culture, and I know how insulting it is for them to be seen nude, especially by a woman.

...

That being said standing nude is NO WHERE NEAR as bad as being ritualistically killed and beheaded, no matter what culture you may come from.

Neither one is acceptable, but dont ever say standing nude is worse than having your parents and the whole world seen you beheaded.

It's all a matter of perspective. ..pan6467, as usuall, said it quite well.

before anyone jumps on my back... i dont' condone either. however...

US prisoner abuse:

1. the prisoners were either criminals or captured enemy soldiers.
2. they were humiliated for purposes of gaining intelligence.
3. the prisoners have decent odds of having american blood on their hands (which, is a part of war. i understand that)
4. ostensibly, the devices used by the americans were being used to save american lives.
5. their faces were covered, the photos were taken and leaked.
6. sparked an intense investigation, 7 soldiers already summoned to a courts-martial.

Berg situation:

1. he was a civilian, his presence in iraq wasn't a physical threat to anyone.
2. berg was kidnapped, not taken prisoner in a war or arrested as a criminal.
3. the man was beheaded in a brutal way
4. the violence and disgrace was videotaped for the purpose of showing the world this act.
5. radicals claim that they will fill "coffin after coffin" like this.

i condemn both, but equivocating the two is ludicrous.

I agree.

Or let's echo what was said earlier this morning on airamerica:

Our first move was to "decapitate" the head of the Iraqi military. Remember that first strike the evening before the war started? Yeah, that war, the one where we used "shock and awe" to command respect and terror from the opposition in the hopes of making them cringe in submission.

We weren't particularly worried about Hussein's wife, children, or anyone else who might have been in that complex we "beheaded." We had already convinced ourselves (collectively) that the whole lot of them were evil. It turns out that the person(s) we bombed that night were not Hussein. I never did find out who they were. They might have even been "innocent," but that never made the news. No one particularly cared.

We collectively watched the happenings on live television. As a nation, the more traumatic the shock, the more dramatic the awe, the better. Behead the enemy, shock them into submission, crush them until they are struck into awe at our magnificent power, turn the place into a glass sheet--and watch the whole thing live. The best, most popular, reality television show ever. Everyone I knew was glued to the television.

I'll repeat what I told most of the people around me then, that's a pretty sick mentality.

Let's talk causality.

Do you honestly think this assasination was "retaliation"? Radicals have been and have stated as their life's goal killing westerners. They are smart enough to understand the rhetoric that is going to set us off.

It wasn't retaliation when they assasinated the last American, or retaliation when they hung the bodies of assasinated Americans from the bridge, or retaliation when they crashed planes into buildings. I have yet to hear any apology for any of those actions from anyone.

This is what killers do. They kill people. Read this part carefully: They will not rest until you are dead. Yes, you, the person reading this post right now. Unless you are an extreem radical fundamental Muslem, they despise you. They want to kill you. You are their sworn enemy.

Until you understand the depth of hatred these extreem fundamentalists feel for you, you will not understand the lengths they will go to accomplish their life's ambition: your death.

I must assume that loathing one's country is a form of self-loathing.

i don't know how else to say this... you're wrong.

i've never heard anyone say anything like that. when was the last time you heard someone say they'd love to just drop a freakin bunker buster bomb on saddam's wife? even if you could find an individual who would say that, you're a good 200 million short from making any collective argument. how many times must our leaders make it abundantly clear that the war was against the regime, not the people? how many leaflets must be dropped detailing how best to avoid the action? how many soldiers must be picked off from the minarets of mosques we refuse to level at our own peril? there were civilian casualties... regrettably there were. instead of the self-loathing... why not blame the cowards who hide ammunition depots in hospitals or hide machine gun nests in schools?

it's frustrating when arguments are built on premises that are blatantly false. as soon as you find enough people that desparately need to agree with it... the accusations spiral uncontrollably.

True.

My thoughts are that we, the American people and more importantly the American media, are largely responsible for this atrocity.

We've all heard that there have been far worse things done to Iraqi prisoners, that we will soon see and hear about.

However, what we have seen so far is frankly, pretty tame. Stacking naked guys in a pile? Doesn't sound like torture to me. Making someone stand on a box and telling them that they'll get electrocuted if they step off? Big f'ing deal.

The outrage the American public had to the naked dog pile, has given these beheading assholes fuel for their fire. They want us to start fighting amongst ourselves. It clouds the issue of who the enemy really is and in essence gives their cause credibility. (not that our cause is any better or more credible, at least our cause doesn't call for intentionally killing innocents).

Had we, the American public, not made such a big fuss over this goofy nonsense of what a few loser prison guards did for kicks, they would not have been able to use that against us.

By doing this to Berg and blaming it on what we did to their prisoners, they know they are hitting a nerve and they are attempting (and succeeding if you read the posts on these boards) to drive the wedge further and divide the American public.

It's unfotunate that other agendas come into play and influence decisions.


Also, for anyone to say anything remotely resembling the "we got what we deserved" quote I read somewhere on this board earlier, is absolutely idiotic.

I love how people still say its their unending hatred...

Well no shit, because we're there, they're going to hate us

It's pretty hard not to if you were an Iraqi right now

But whatever, I understand the outrage from this on both sides, but NO ONE should be taking the moral high ground on either side's argument right now over some guy's death

Talk about political vultures ;)

Couln't have said it any better. There are many who exist only to hate, plot against, and conspire to murder those who dare to believe differently than them. We are targets simply by our way of life. There are two choices. Do nothing, and be easy targets, or attack the problem as best we can.
As far as comparisons between beheading and the abuse the prisoners suffered, thats easy. Which would you choose given the choice between the two. I don't see too many selecting the door with the decapitation behind it.

It's too bad its true though that most people in this world everywehre are fucked up and unfortunately in the wrong way anyways sigh its just frustrating shit these days honestly

Anyways I don't think its worth making politics out of some guys death anyways and i'd rather see this one locked since its not going to get too far

They hated us centuries before this decade. If you want to blame someone, blame Constantine. That's when this all started.

I've been there. I've had people spit literally in my face. I've had people blow cigarette smoke into my face. If you don't understand the insult in that act, you aren't armed for this argument. I've had people pat me on the back, intentionally, with their left hand. Again, if you don't see why that's a big deal, you aren't informed enough to add to this discussion. Any one of those digressions carries the penalty of death. Instant death, no court, no jury.

The people that are performing these atrocious acts hate us. You are a fool if you think you can make this better with food stamps and kisses.

Food stamps and kisses?

Now hold up one second - I never once made the claim that shit was going to work.

Don't go around for suddenly being there... there are many people in the world who have lived there before and it would be a mistake not to imagine others haven't.

Say what you want but don't expect people to listen much more after calling em fools for not understanding when they are pretty supportive

Sigh I need a break from Politics for a while anyways... everytime some shit goes down the whole place goes berserk with the new masters of the day anyways :-/

So far we've been doing pretty well. We don't see a need to lock it just yet. People are venting in a civil manner, and I see only respect and participation. That might change, but as long as we stay respectful this thread will stay open.

Having said that, please recognize that I am passionate about this topic, so the decision to close this thread will not rest with me. I've relinquished that control here, in order to debate.

Its fine if the debate is kept well but I think some intention in the begining was to troll in this post anyways which is why I think it might end up on the wrong foot.

No, you didn't. But you did suggest that we had some responsability in why they hate us. My intention was to show you that they will hate us regardless of any actions. They don't hate us because we occupy their country. The vast majority of Iraqis are glad we're there. This is a special group, distinct in their sheer loathing for Western culture.

Look what they did with a sword. What do you think they would do with a button?

Look I 100% agree with you on those extremists because I myself have been face to face on the wrong side with extremists myself.

My post was mainly pointed towards (though now that i read the rest of the posts, i think it was the wrong poster on a different thread lol) someone who was trying to paint the brush with everyone which was getting on my nerve.

I'm pretty reaslitic about this in that most people are fine and normal but the extremists make a bad name for everyone.

Only thing is, I see a bit of paranoia in a lot of people over this - sure they'd love to kill you, but thats thing, we're here, they're there, and shit happened. I'm mostly annoyed that people need to make political jabs and trolls over a poor guy who died who had tried to leave the country.

That's probably why I wanted to see this thread gone anyways... I'm still wondering how (in another thread) someone equated liberals and abortion with some guy's death... shit going for a smoke anyways :D

Which is why this thread hasn't been shut down. We're all being civil.

I can appreciate your frustration. I'm also frustrated. But I'm not painting with a broad brush, and hopefully haven't gotten on your nerves. ;)

No you haven't you're doing it quite civil and fine and hell I'm probably a lot closer to your stand than it might seem at first.

No, they were all suspected of being criminals or captured enemy soldiers. Many people in those prisons have been let go after questioning. In any event, torture is wrong.

Torture is wrong.

Decent odds = some people are innocent. Torturing the innocent is wrong. Torturing the guilty is wrong.

Torture is wrong.

Torture is wrong.

Torture is wrong.

Torture is wrong.

Either we, representing the United States of America, have principles or we do not. We ostensibly invaded Iraq to stop the torture and abuse of Saddam Hussein. We cannot say "well, we torture LESS than he did, so there!"

Torture is wrong under any circumstance. If we do it, if they do it, if anyone does it. War is ugly, but war without any principles whatsoever is uglier. Without the basic standards of the Geneva Convention, we are taking war back to the stone age. Maybe that's good, perhaps people need to realize the horrors of war. But, don't try to say "my torture is better than your torture."

To all of that I say, two wrongs dont make a right. It doesn't matter whether one is considered more sever another, to me, they're all wrong and we shouldn't be making excuses for either. Period.

I don't know where you were during the run-up to the invasion. The night before the war started we made one last effort to make a debilitating strike--we bombed a compound we believed held Hussein and his family.

The US public watched it on TV. And then we watched the bombs drop throughout the most populated city in Iraq. We justified the smoke clouds and necessary maneuvers to bring an abrubt end to the war. We dropped bombs on media stations and claimed that was appropriate because they were sending out propaganda.

Every time an issue comes up like this numerous people suggest we just turn the region into glass. You have participated in those threads and seen such posts, so where do you get off acting all disturbed and accusing me of speculation?



It isn't civil in my mind to poison the well. Poisoning the well is a logical fallacy and it's also just plain rude. Implying that my disagreement is a form of self-loathing is not polite. Stemming further disagreement by suggesting only fools don't see it your way is not polite, either.

I've said my opinion regarding events and reactions as I watched them occur. It isn't meant to convince anyone who doesn't want to be convinced. I suspect that other people are reading what I typed and silently agreeing. My words are intended to support them.

Both are wrong. In both of our societies, they are both wrong.

hmmm,

Away for a day and this is what I come back to.

I wondered about that myself Lebell which is quite wow

*shakes his head at the way the thread was started in the first place*

US prisoner abuse?

They should not offered protection as prisoners of war under the Geneva Convention act because they are not armed combatant but instead they are terrorist.

I say let the US have their way.

BTW, since you seemed to have missed the first line of my reply, take your comments to airamerica instead of accusing me of anything.

What I wrote was a reiteration of what commentators said on the air. I made it clear in my opening that I was repeating their commentary, so there wasn't much point in attacking me personally.

Both of these acts are sickening. They shouldnt be compared. The power of the visual image is amazing. Neither of these topics would be blips on the proverbial radar if there wasnt this hardcore evidence to back it up. I know that human rights groups such as Amnesty International have been rallying for months about this whole Prisoner Abuse Scandal, but only after the photos have been leaked that politicians and the top brass are ducking and weaving. The power that a visual image has is truly amazing.

apparently harmlessrabbit in his zeal to find something to counter in my post didn't read my first line.

do you think that by constantly restating that torture is wrong that somehow you've twisted my post into saying torture is right?

thanks for the re-affirmation though.

smooth,

i took your enthusiastic citation of air america as a direct endorsement of that viewpoint. whether you meant it that way or not... the way i read the rest of your post makes it seem that you have no qualms with their analysis. if you cite something without using a full quotation, it's hard to see where there ideas end and your analysis begins. i apologize for any misinterpretation.

I voted that the torture was worse for the simple reason that once you're dead, it's over. I suppose this might depend on the method of death, but I believe the death here was relatively short.

The Geneva Convention is not a valid shield for the USA to hide behind, whether it was followed to the letter or not. Americans have already proven they don't have to follow any international laws when they don't feel like it. If the justification can be made of how many lives were saved because of torturing the prisoners, then it will. Anyhow, you don't need a code to tell you how bad it is to torture someone. If you do, then you're beyond all help.

Well in the time it has taken for me to sleep this has really blown up!

I must say though some excellent points on both side of the debate. Although I still agree that two wrongs don't make a right the first wrong should never occured and then could never be used as fuel to put on the fire.

It's also a shame that the acts of a very small minority have been used as a reason that a man was brutally murdered (I guess you could argue he would have been killed anyway but that's a topic for another thread!).

Quote:

1. the prisoners were either criminals or captured enemy soldiers.

WRONG. People were suspected to be criminals. Some were innocent. You should read some iraqi blogs.

Even if they were criminals or captured enemy soldiers it doesn't justify torture or humiliation.

The Geneva Convention still applies.

Quote:

2. they were humiliated for purposes of gaining intelligence.

Which is still illegal. Intelligence gained by torture is also highly questionable because you had people admitting to being witches years ago, also by torture. Do you believe in witches and witchcraft?

Quote:

3. the prisoners have decent odds of having american blood on their hands (which, is a part of war. i understand that)

See 1. + "Decent odds of having american blood on their hands" also equals "Decent odds that they are completely innocent"

Quote:

4. ostensibly, the devices used by the americans were being used to save american lives.

Yes, raping prisoners with lightsticks and letting dogs bite them is surely saving american lives.

Quote:

5. their faces were covered, the photos were taken and leaked.

So? They still suffer. They still know about what happend to them. They were there. Or are you telling me I can torture people and take pictures of them aslong as I don't show their faces?

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/rdon...F5A57A19F4.jpg
His face is shown, btw.

Quote:

6. sparked an intense investigation, 7 soldiers already summoned to a courts-martial.

I hope this investigation and their punishments will take place in Iraq.


--

Some reading material for you:
http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/
http://www.ihath.com/
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story...215344,00.html

You were justifying torture. Read your first point. You are saying "this is wrong, BUT, aren't they all criminals anyway?"

If that isn't justification, what is it?

Also, as I said, they weren't all criminals. You're presuming them all to be guilty. Many of them were just rounded up for being in the general area during an attack.

So, let's put this in perspective. Unknown to you, your next door neighbor is selling crack to children. While you're at his front door borrowing the lawn mower, the police swoop in, arresting you as well. While you're in custody, they decide to interrogate you because they assume you are guilty. They start out with a little beating; then they they let an attack dog loose on you; then they strip you naked; then they put you in a pile of other naked prisoners; then they take photos of you masturbating.

Is this ok? It's all in the name of stopping crack dealers, right? And you wouldn't be in prison unless you were guilty, right?

Perhaps you could address some of my points or Mehoni's points?

Yes... everything the police do to you in the name of stopping crack is o.k. What the hell are you borrowing a lawnmower from a crack dealer for anyway?

The Beheading of a person is worse than the "so called" torture the US Inflicted on the prisoners. Before the beheading was made public I was not happy with the actions of the soldiers and their abuse of prisoners... But afterwards... all I can think was... What if the US started Beheading all the captives whether they were Guilty or innocent. I mean the fact is, the guy that got beheaded was innocent... in fact, he went over to help the Iraqi's rebuild their country yet he was targeted and you know damn well he's not the first.

You know, people make statements about how what they did is no worse than what we did. People even say us invading them was wrong and talk about their innocents dying. What about our innocents? What about good people who go over their to do good and end up getting killed in retaliation for pictures? Some of you say America is getting what it deserves yet you also say two wrongs don't make a right.

The fact is... there's a power vaccuum over there right now and the people who are shooting at us, the people who hate us hate the fact that they aren't going to be in control over there. Without conflict they have no reason to exist and now their existence is being threatened.

The Cool thing about America is that we acknowledged the fact that we stepped over the line in the torturous humiliation of the prisoners and we're going to punish the people who did it. The Cool thing about America is that we can debate whether it was right or wrong without the threat of Death... because the regime that was over there before did not care for debate. In fact, if you spoke badly of those in command, you were imprisoned, tortured, your tongue was cut out, or you were killed and your family was killed also. The prisoner that's talking about how he was abused can FREELY go on television and share his story where as before... he'd be dead.

The fact is... whether you agree with our invasion or not... things are better for the Iraqi people now. They're finding a voice and they're using it... although some choose to speak with violence... and those people are the minority.

I'm not saying the US got what it deserved. I am saying two things don't make a right though.

I just can't see how anyone has a right to compare the physical and mental torture on one hand and death on another. I haven't experienced either and if anyone has experienced both maybe they could let us know a comparison?

I'm know of several cultures where the utter humilation of themselves by their captives would be considered worse then dying. You can't say one is "worse" then the other.

I don't think its right to hide behind the fact that they are now all "free" as a reason to torture. I'm sure most Iraqi's are happy at being free but I'm sure they're not happy that their prisons resemble the type of 'justice' which was common in times consigned to the history books.

I always thought that you are innocent until proven guilty and it's up to the accuser to find the evidence and not beat it out of you.

you entire argument is based upon the presupposition that i condone/justify the US's actions... i roundly deny that. i won't address you or mehoni's "point" because they aren't points. they're built on what you wanted me to say, not what i said.

it is entirely reasonable to condemn two separate actions... yet consider one of those to be much worse than the other. i was clearly responding to posters equivocating the two.

i've clearly been characterized as someone who condones torture of human beings, letting dog's loose on prisoner's and that i might think torture is fine as long as the faces aren't shown. where i come from, that necessitates an apology rather than a rebuttal.

Oh really?
2 minutes of semi-public nudity is as bad as having your head sawed off with a dull knife?

Are you telling us that, forced to choose, you would have to THINK ABOUT IT? :rolleyes:

You need not look any further than the victim's last name to know the <i>real</i> motive for this senseless act of barbarism.
Those cowards will use anything as an excuse to carry out their twisted acts of cold blooded murder.

And it appears to be quite contagious.

ok, here goes my rant:

firstly....not all the atrocities occuring in the american prison for iraqi's (abu grad....not sur how it is spelt) have been shown to the public. secondly, other abuses have been showing up in other iraq prisons run by the americans, not just in abu grad. now, lyndy england states that she was trained for the distrubution of mental torture. how unsurpirisng. but to muslims, being naked infront of others is extremely demoralizing!!
and what about the half-dozen or so homicide investigations that are going on regarding deaths at american POW camps? and this is only in iraq... what about afganistan? what about guantanamo bay? have the american people forgotten about that war too? how civilians have been held for over a year, with NO CHARGES laid, and with no contact to their families? what about the fact that no human rights commision has been allowed anywhere near guantanamo? or that other human rights watch have been worried about iraqi prisoners from the get-go?

now, if the american press was allowed to publish such information, i am certain that the american people would join the rest of the world condemming such acts of cruelty and inhumanity.

there is no way that Mr. Berg's murder was justified;
there is no justification for the presence of troops in iraq;
pre-emptive war is not a strategy for freedom, but a strategy for slavery.
no act of abuse can be justified, no matter what the degree, even if it is for information! what a shallow mind it must take to imagine that. and there is still no proof of weapons of mass destruction. there are none. the irai people cannot afford to arm themselves when they were still being bombed by the united states of america.....the bombs havent stopped falling from desert storm, ten years ago. these people do not want or need the americans or the british there....they need countries like canada, the us, the uk to stop trade embargoes and to lift tarriffs so that the once prosperous and educated county can again thrive.

old proverb: "fighting for peace is like fucking for virginity"

please, read mahoni's thread....there is real thought in that.

thanks mahoni for showing some insight....hopefully others will see it too.

I think that both were wrong

nearly everyone else does too. the poll question is asking "which is worse?".

So, if I pick the beheading, that means I hate muslims, and if I pick Nude pyramids, that means I hate America.

Ummmmm.... Yeaaahhhhh....

http://www.leadingbrand.org/images/lumbergh.jpg

Don't forget the self-loathing and foolish bit--courtesy of our friendly admins.

Or you can reverse it and have the opposite.:hmm:

First, given the choice between rape, being tortured for days (these men had more than 2 minutes of torture), where I would relive that pain every day for the rest of my life or a relatively fast but painful death, I'm going to take the latter thank you. Ask a woman that was raped brutally and tortured and ask her which she would have preferred.

But what really pisses me off and not just you but an Admin for this board suggesting that the way I answered was an apparent loathing of my country and thusly a self loathing is dispicable. I happen to love myself, my family and my country in that order.

So do not tell me if I say something you dislike tells you I loath myself and my country because I do take that personally. What you are telling me is my opinion and my views if not shared by you are worthless and I must hate myself and my country because ONLY your views show love of country and self.

I answered a question, and I told how I FELT. I am sick and tired of not being able to go to my ancestors homes in Germany and Ireland and Italy without fear. Simply because I am an American and there are jerks here who live with this attitude that the US cannot do any wrong and laugh over torture. Which now added fuel to a war where my friends are now not only run the risk of being killed, but now tortured mercilessly then killed. Thank you Admins and people who supposedly love your country and self and think that the Iraqi torture was all too funny.

Laughing over torture is no better than being the torturer, which IS a form of self loathing because you are taking out your inadequacies on someone else.

Finally if you are implying Berg was Jewish by his last name...... I happen to know a few Bergs that are Catholic.

And if my rant about an admin gets me banned or in trouble then so be it. But noone has the right to tell me views = whether I love myself or not.

I dont loathe my country, I loathe the people currently running it.

quite honestly, i would choose to be tortured/raped over having my head sawed off. obviously i've never been in either situation, but i'm almost certain that is what i'd chooose.

pan... i may have missed something in this thread, but i can't find anyone who is laughing at the situation. you usually seem pretty level headed, so i'm trying to find out where you got that from.

HA HA LOL

Yeah, one thing that pisses me off about these prisoner abuse photos is the way in which people are just passing it all off as some kind of joke or fraternity style stunt. HOW CULTURALLY INSENSITIVE CAN YOU POSSIBLY BE? Having your genitals laughed at by a woman, or wearing her panties on your head or being forced to masturbate with other men is the most heinous shit that can happen to you if you are a muslim man. I know that some of you guys might be sitting there reading this while masturbating, with panties on your head (i know i am), but please try to think outside the small sphere within which you live.

Irate,

What is missing is that after Yournamehere attacked the way I answered. (Which is true I haven't been nor ever plan to be in either situation so honestly I can't answer but the way I feel at the time.)

He posted the Artelevision post about the loathing.

It's uncalled for and in my humble opinion saying that only that man's beliefs are right anyone who disagrees must loath self and country.

I know I'm ranting..... bad day marriage is going down the shitter, she hit me tonight simply because I was playing around and put frosting on her nose. Frasier ended and as stupid as it sounds that meant I lost a friend (see my entertainment posting for him). Really, thinking about relapse and gambling this weekend on the Preakness (which by thinking about it means I won't because life's bad days today are nothing but compared to the days when I gambled, so my sense of recovery is still ok.)

Maybe rationality is slightly askew in me. But I felt yesterday the same as I feel today about the loathing post. Just not able to word it properly.

I still stand by saying that neither is quantifiable and both are horrible...

But I'll leave you with a funny thing that's quite ironic and paints who we are dealing with - Lebanon's Hizbollah group (who wouldve thought) condemned the perpetrators for essentailly disrespecting everything about Islam...

I don't know really what to say when one group known for terrorism before is condemning another lol but its condemnation!

From the Military itself the true documented tortures to date. How can people make excuses for this crap and then claim that those who complain about it hate the country? How can anyone argue this treatment gives the enemy more fuel to hate us and a greater desire to destroy us?

Little bit more than "nude pyramids and panties on the head"?
=====================================================================

Prisoner statements:

a. (U) Breaking chemical lights and pouring the
phosphoric liquid on detainees;
b. (U) Threatening detainees with a charged 9mm pistol;
c. (U) Pouring cold water on naked detainees;
d. (U) Beating detainees with a broom handle and a
chair;
e. (U) Threatening male detainees with rape;
f. (U) Allowing a military police guard to stitch the
wound of a detainee who was injured after being slammed
against the wall in his cell;
g. (U) Sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and
perhaps a broom stick.
h. (U) Using military working dogs to frighten and
intimidate detainees with threats of attack, and in one
instance actually biting a detainee.
===============================================================

Guard confessions and statements:

a. (S) Punching, slapping, and kicking detainees;
jumping on their naked feet;
b. (S) Videotaping and photographing naked male and
female detainees;
c. (S) Forcibly arranging detainees in various
sexually explicit positions for photographing;
d. (S) Forcing detainees to remove their clothing and
keeping them naked for several days at a time;
e. (S) Forcing naked male detainees to wear women's
underwear;
f. (S) Forcing groups of male detainees to masturbate
themselves while being photographed and videotaped;
g. (S) Arranging naked male detainees in a pile and
then jumping on them;
h. (S) Positioning a naked detainee on a MRE Box,
with a sandbag on his head, and attaching wires to his
fingers, toes, and penis to simulate electric torture;
i. (S) Writing "I am a Rapest" (sic) on the leg of a
detainee alleged to have forcibly raped a 15-year old
fellow detainee, and then photographing him naked;
j. (S) Placing a dog chain or strap around a naked
detainee's neck and having a female Soldier pose for a
picture;
k. (S) A male MP guard having sex with a female
detainee;
l. (S) Using military working dogs (without muzzles)
to intimidate and frighten detainees, and in at least
one case biting and severely injuring a detainee;
m. (S) Taking photographs of dead Iraqi detainees.
=============================================================================

The whole report is here: http://www.globalsecurity.org/intell...800-mp-bde.htm

<b>pan6467</b>,
Don't take everything so personally.
In my earlier post, I responded to two separate quotes, by two separate people.
My response to <b>ARTelevision's</b> quote was to him - not you - and it was based on the surprising (to me) general tone of a lot of the responses in the thread.

Also - if you're going to assert that everyone is entitled to his own opinion, then that must include those who disagree with you.

Although we as Americans are not perfect, I still don't think we're the bad guys. And even though I'm not saying, "My country right or wrong," I still have the utmost respect for and confidence in the vast majority of our military personnel over there.

Oh please. The victim card played by pro-war people after they've disrespected anti-war people is very tiresome.

Someone pointing out that you've disrespected him or her is not impinging on your freedom to disagree--it's pointing out that you're either being rude to someone or silencing debate.

If you can't differentiate between disrespecting someone and just wording your different political opinion in a polite manner, I don't really know how to make it more clear.

Back on track
 

First off I'm glad this thread lasted more than the 20 posts it was prophesized to have before being closed.

Lots of good debate.

I would like to see the discussion get back to being a bit more civil and back toward the topic of the thread, or at least back to why this side or that side did this or that instead of the whole "It's just because you disagree with me and you suck because of it" If that keeps up, this thread will be locked in far less than another 20 posts.

Pan, if you quote globalsecurity.org you'll force me to quote hannity.com to balance it out.

Let's not be too quick to use the term "torture". Even if some of the statements above are proven to be true, the fact is that they are unproven right now. "Alleged torture" is more precise, but still exagerates slightly.

Very good point.

In fact I've been really impressed with this thread and that's saying a lot in Tilted Politics!

Maybe the thread has run its course and the attacking of positions is just the next step but I've enjoyed reading all the sides of the argument. Lets not end on a sour note! :)

argueing which is better, torture or death, will always be a matter of opinion so debating is pointless...unless you like to be heard then by all means, blabber on.

i like the dialog about causation even though some are a bit short-sighted, but i hope it's kept up.

Well, there have been allegations that US soldiers have killed some prisoners, but short of that, the beheading is much worse.

It seems to be common on both sides for revenge to be lopsided. After 4 americans were killed in Fallujah, US soldiers strafed the city killing some 600 people as I remember. I'm sure a lot more than 4 innocent iraqi's were killed in that. Frankly, dead is dead. It doesn't matter if you're killed with cannon fire or a knife.

Should revenge be equal, or should it exist at all? I think it depends on the situation, although plenty of people think only with their heart rather than their head. Stalin's quote on death seems quite appropriate here: "A single death is a tragedy; a million deaths is a statistic."

Did you go to the sight? It is the article 15-6 Investigation of the 800th Military Brigade. Those facts quoted came from that investigation written by Major General Ryder.

How can you tell me not to call it torture when our own government calls it torture?

Is being sodomized with a chemical light and broom, stripped naked, raped, forced to clip wires to your penis, phosphoric fluid dumped on you, and so on, not considered torture? If it is not torture then what is it?

Yourname, IF you say you were replying to Art, in the same post berating me and I mistook the meaning, then I appologize, and I will believe that you did not mean offense by it.

So Yourname I do appologize.

Art, the post about loathing, in my opinion was a bit ambiguous (sp) and I saw people using it to burn others. To me personally, I do think you should have said more so that what you meant may not have been taken out of context. But it led me to believe, having read your past posts, that you were directing that to people who believed the military was wrong and should hold those who did the torture responsible.

I have been very outspoken in my support of the military, having been in the Navy and having friends still serving, I will not disparage the military. However I will hold accountable the actions of bad apples whether in the military, the DoD, or private civilian life. I do not loathe my country, I have differing views than you and some others, but it is not a hatred of my country. In my opinion, politics has gotten so partisan that no matter what you say someone can take it as hating the country or hating the freedoms we have or hate in general.

Anyway, Art I do appologize if I was mistaken. As I wrote, I was having a very bad day and my emotional state and reasoning may have been somewhat skewed.

If I took it out of context then to you Art, I sincerely appologize.

My comment was directed generally at those who loathe our country. That was where my thinking stood at that time. I typically respond to general trends I may see in threads rather than individual posts. I almost never address anyone directly.

No, it's not. It's an agenda-driven site by John Pike.
From the site mission statement: They hope to be instremental in...While Pike's strenghts lie in his understanding of technology, and his imagery has been used frequently by Fox News and other conservative-leaning news agencies, one can not infer non-partisonship.

HINT: Official military sites end with .mil. Official U.S government sites end with .gov.

What a few americans did to a few iraqi's in prison was terrible. The prisoners may have been innocent. It is doubful, but almost always possible.

Berg was innocent. Everyone knows he was innocent (except some conspiracy theory freaks). They did not care that he was innocent. They just wanted to punish america. But I do not believe for a second that he was killed because of the abuse news.

The murderers were not exactly the common iraqi citizen. They are terrorists. Terrorists kill innocent people all the time. What I DO believe is that the abuse stirred up enough people that they decided it was a convenient time to Slay him in the hopes of further turning people against the US.

I have talked to a friend that was raped and she feels it would not be better to be killed than tortured (thinking mainly of the rape part) Her thinking was that people don't always survive rape. Many people are psychologically ruined for life often taking their families with them. That is (or can be for some) a living death. She feels they are equally bad.

My thinking is that one has a chance to survive torture. One has NO chance to survive death.

What does it matter? This whole topic matters to me because I see Americans turning on our government and blaming our government for the beheading of an innocent man (who was trying to help innocent people). While the ripple effect often causes unfortunate events, it is not always the best logic.

In a perfect world we should all obey the laws perfectly. If I was alone in a room with someone that killed my best friend and raped a little girl I should give that person the same rights as an innocent man unjustly held in prison. However, if the opportunity came I would be hard pressed NOT to beat the crap out of him at the very least. It is wrong. I know.

Now wait a minute! I know, they were probably not all guilty of those crimes. I'm sure they just jay walked or something. As a responsible nation, we should NOT have raped any prisoners or sexually abused them. We should not have threatened to have them electrecuted or had our dogs bite them. Those guards did countless things they should not have done I'm sure.

But come on now. Throwing cold water on them? WHO CARES! Depriving them of sleep? I'm depriving myself of sleep right now. Some of those "abuses" are just pathetic. We are in the middle of a war. Get over it! Punish the bad guys no matter who they are and move on!

We admit our faults. Did the terrorists?

*Disclaimer*

It's really late and I get up in 2 hours for work. If something did not make sense I apologize.

Especially not since the man who CIA says took responsibility is from Jordan.. except the fact that CIA said he was killed a while ago. I guess he got nine lives.. well, eight now.

Well, see, the treatment was in violation of armed forces stated policy AND a violation of the geneva convention.

Perhaps you would like someone to keep you awake for three days with threats, then throw cold water on you, then perhaps leave you naked in a cold cell, then force you into an awkward position for hours on end.

I personally find this kind of belittling of the abuse of prisoners to be completely disgusting. Remember when Rumsfeld was complaining about Iraq violating the Geneva Conventions by putting our POW soldiers on television? As Paul Wolfowitz said, if our enemies treated our soldiers the way we treated Iraqis, we would consider it abusive and a violation of the Geneva Convention.

I didn't say it was not against the geneva convention. In fact I said I know it is. I just DO NOT CARE! Yea I'm a heartless bastard. I can live with that. But I personally do not care much about the rights of terrorists.

Would I like it? Of course not. Who would. But then again the worst I've done is voice my distaste for terrorists and wish them much suffering. Have I plotted or had any part in causeing the suffering of innocent woman and children? No.


And by "punishing the bad guys and move on" I meant of course, punish the guards and or any officers that gave specific orders and move on.

Well, you said "who cares?" and the answer is "I do."

Judging by the news, a whole lot of other americans care too. To me, the proper reponse to state-sponsored torture is not to forgive the government when they say "oops, my bad, sorry!"

That is my point. It is not like the people of iraq raised up in protest and murdered one of our own. No, it was done by someone who is responsible for killing innocent people already. He just had a nice justification that some people agree with to go with it now.

You care and I respect that. I do regret the majority of the "atrocities" that a few of our soldiers caused. In fact I said they should be punished. I don't think that is a "oops, my bad, sorry" response.

Perhaps the only way to pay for the evil our soldiers did would be to end the war now and fire rumsfield? Yea whatever. It was terrible. Yes. It should be dealt with appropriately. Now how about we spend our energies on finishing what we started and get out.

Only problem we have right now is sort of - how can we finish it. We've got to solve that but right now we're somewhat checkmated.

I don't see how you can say this with a straight face. :rolleyes:

Please explain.

Well said.

We can't use it as a shield 'cause we violated it. Stipulated.

WRT torture being wrong no matter what, what do you define as torture? I'd say that matters. I consider watching network television to be torture, for instance. It's definitely wrong! :D

You're saying Berg was Jewish?

According to his father he was.

Er, we've been at war with these people since 1991. Given that Hussein violated the truce for several years, we were very justified in going back in there and kicking his ass. No WMD excuses were necessary.

Wonderful. Now I have another reason to wish those assholes who murdered him extreme ill. That's a mild understatement, BTW.

Absolutely, this is a ridiculous comparison and a weak retort to opposition to the treatment the Iraqi's received. What happened to the Iraqi's is terrible but the bruatl murder of the correspondant is reprehensible and idefencible.

Bingo.

I think that the beheading is worse than the nude pyramids any day. And if you had to think hard about that question.......well I don't know what to tell you. I am in agreement with almost everything that edwhit said in his post.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by edwhit
[B]What a few americans did to a few iraqi's in prison was terrible. The prisoners may have been innocent. It is doubful, but almost always possible.

Berg was innocent. Everyone knows he was innocent (except some conspiracy theory freaks). They did not care that he was innocent. They just wanted to punish america. But I do not believe for a second that he was killed because of the abuse news.

The murderers were not exactly the common iraqi citizen. They are terrorists. Terrorists kill innocent people all the time. What I DO believe is that the abuse stirred up enough people that they decided it was a convenient time to Slay him in the hopes of further turning people against the US.

I have talked to a friend that was raped and she feels it would not be better to be killed than tortured (thinking mainly of the rape part) Her thinking was that people don't always survive rape. Many people are psychologically ruined for life often taking their families with them. That is (or can be for some) a living death. She feels they are equally bad.

My thinking is that one has a chance to survive torture. One has NO chance to survive death.

What does it matter? This whole topic matters to me because I see Americans turning on our government and blaming our government for the beheading of an innocent man (who was trying to help innocent people). While the ripple effect often causes unfortunate events, it is not always the best logic.

In a perfect world we should all obey the laws perfectly. If I was alone in a room with someone that killed my best friend and raped a little girl I should give that person the same rights as an innocent man unjustly held in prison. However, if the opportunity came I would be hard pressed NOT to beat the crap out of him at the very least. It is wrong. I know.

Now wait a minute! I know, they were probably not all guilty of those crimes. I'm sure they just jay walked or something. As a responsible nation, we should NOT have raped any prisoners or sexually abused them. We should not have threatened to have them electrecuted or had our dogs bite them. Those guards did countless things they should not have done I'm sure.

But come on now. Throwing cold water on them? WHO CARES! Depriving them of sleep? I'm depriving myself of sleep right now. Some of those "abuses" are just pathetic. We are in the middle of a war. Get over it! Punish the bad guys no matter who they are and move on!

We admit our faults. Did the terrorists?

Originally posted by gondath

The Geneva Convention is not a valid shield for the USA to hide behind, whether it was followed to the letter or not. Americans have already proven they don't have to follow any international laws when they don't feel like it.

I just wonder if the Iraqis followed the Geneva Convention when they captured Jessica Lynch and the other Americans that were POWS? Just because we were stupid and toke pictures of the things that we had done. One of our citizens should be beheaded? These people in the prisons are prisoners and should be treated as such. And if having them form a nude pyramid is going to get information about WMD or info about terrorists I say do whatever it takes.

We often hear the simple idea put forward when talking about Iraq that what we are doing is better than Hussein.

My question is this: Why are we using a vile dictator like Saddam as a moral guidepost for our own actions?

Is a murdering rapist better than Jeffrey Dahmer because he doesn't prey on children or dine on them afterwards?

Not to say that we are either of them, but why are we so busy comparing ourselves to the worst of the worst.

I would prefer to think that my fine nation is incomparable to the Hussein regime. Unfortunately I am being bombarded with reminders that isn't the case.

I am very disappointed.

Why do you wonder? Jessica said so herself when she came out and corrected both the pentagon's and media's portrayal of what occurred.

I haven't read the entire Geneva Convention, but is rape allowed?

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...06-lynch_x.htm


Lynch book tells of rape by captors
By Rick Hampson, USA TODAY
PALESTINE, W.Va. — Jessica Lynch, the former prisoner of war whose rescue made her the most famous GI in the Iraq war, was raped by her captors, according to her authorized biography.

Rick Bragg's book also casts doubts on the claim of an Iraqi lawyer who says he helped rescue the soldier.
Glamour Magazine handout

But the book, which will be released Tuesday, says Lynch has no memory of being sexually assaulted, and she appreciates her treatment in an Iraqi hospital after her vehicle crashed during an Iraqi ambush.

In the book, author Rick Bragg writes that scars on Lynch's body and medical records indicate she was sodomized, but that Lynch recalls nothing: "Jessi lost three hours. She lost them in the snapping bones, in the crash of the Humvee, in the torment her enemies inflicted on her after she was pulled from it."

No, rape is not allowed by the Geneva convention.

--http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=17229

But, as I replied in your PM, this is old news and I don't see much point in rehashing things Jessica Lynch has denied ever occured in personal interviews.

The people in these "prisons" haven't been convicted of anything and shouldn't be treated like prisoners. Even if they deserved to be treated as prisoners, we don't subject our prisoners to death by snake bites, broom stick rapings, and electroction for information.

This has been good so far, don't let it derail off-topic into old, irrelevant news about Lynch.

Pointing at how badly others have acted is no justification for our own behaviour.

It is however evidence that we aren't as different from those we compare ourselves to as we might once have thought.

Proud of our new US motto,

Our evil isn't as bad as their evil.

Wake up people.

That's not new. This is a world of greys, not black-and-white. We're not perfect. We're just saying that our imperfection is lesser than theirs.