LD may have a point.

Income taxes are paid by the middle class - like me.

The rich pay fuck all (yet cry they pay too much), the poor pay fuck all (yet cry they don't get a big enough handout)

We have the GST here in Canada (which is a national sales tax) which is HATED (myself included).

But it's hard to beat.

Sure, you can pay the guy who does your roof cash and beat it there, but for the most part, you can't beat it.

If there is one thing i can't stand it's assholes who don't pay their taxes.

They want to use the roads, schools, hospitals, and everything else, but they don't want to pay for it.

Uh...sorry to tell you this but my reasons for wanting to seperate from the east aren't the same as those given by either the CCF or Social Credit to validate their proposed economic systems. My arguement is with the government itself...

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I know and work with several people from the west, and Nova Scotia too, who have come to toronto for reason or another and have come to realize that there is no grand plot; that people are people are people and no-one in the east "has it in" for anyone in the west, or elsewhere. You need to live here to appreciate that. I was actually born and raised in Hamilton, and believe me, it was bred into me to despise Toronto; to go forth to the tiger cat argo games and seek out argo fans and beat them to a pulp because they were from "hogtown" Then i moved here. Didn't like it at first. My family and friends snickered, called me a traitor to the cause, etc. But then you begin to open your mind and you ralize that the average joe in toronto is busting his hump just like everyone else. That in fact, he's ok, nice even. You then realize that the hatred that was bred into you growing up was wrong.

Never said it was a conspiracy. I don't doubt you guys are all trying to survive (although understand that my experience with Torontonians have tended to involve alot of arrogant stereotyping on their part), nor that you aren't part of an evil plot. But what I am upset with doesn't require some evil plan to be afoot.

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The liberals are in power because more people voted for them than anyone else. As long as there is fiscal responsibility, i will vote for that party. Paul Martin took 9 years of coservative thieving, stealing, and corruption complete with back breaking deficits and turned our economy into the strongest of all the G-7 nations. He eliminated deficits, got rid of bureaucracy, and gave us budget surpluses for the first time in my life. For that alone, I will vote for him.

The liberals are in power because a first-past-the-post system ensures that they will have the majority in parliament and the growing centralization of power ensures that their control is absolute.

If you think that the liberal party is fiscally responsible, you are either so ignorant of what has happened that you shouldn't even be posting here, or you are a straightfaced liar. I am not trying to be rude -even if i am being- but there is no other way to put it. I don't want to list off all the financial scandals and publically reported waste that this government has been involved in (for there is a limit to these posts) but suffice to say I really can't understand how you could possibly refer to them as fiscally responsible.

Martin's budget surpluses came because taxes were raised through orders-in-council and good economic luck. The first few 'surpluses' were budgetary smoke and mirrors and they - luckily for him - worked out after a while. I will give them some credit for doing some stuff better (not that it was hard given their predecessors) but to ignore everything that has gone wrong is rediculous.

No. Cut them off and say, start living within your means...especially Quebec.

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I have worked in Quebec quite allot. Probably about half my year is spent working in Quebec. I have really gotten to know the Quebecers and the province quite well.

The quebec boys i work with bust their humps too. Though suprisingly, they think that they are net a net payer provice also. The myth of the laid back quebecer is a myth believe me. I used to think the quebecers were a whiny lot too. But then I started working there and my opinion changed (again). There a pretty good lot. I have never had any "English dog" grief.

I can't speak for the bearaucracy, but, the people i have met are all suprisingly friendly.

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Their ignorance on that subject is part of the problem, although I don't doubt Quebecers themsevles are nice.


Government tends to be the problem there.

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I can't tolerate any separatist BS from anyone be they from Quebec, or Alberta, or BC. It's all about political lust. Lucien Bochard et al knew that they could never be prime minister of a Canada because they don't have what it takes. So, you want to be king and pope, you have to separate. It's not what's good for quebec, or alberta, it's all about power and wanting more.

No. That's what you want to dismiss it as because you can just brush it off there. We are being taxed without representation, without consideration, and at a very unfair rate.

We don't get a fair return on our taxes, nor do we even get as much money as other provinces (regardless of how much was paid in). We also get ignored...when peace river or the red river flooded, where was the federal aid money? It came along quick when Chretien's area flooded...

They aren't perfect, but they are far better than any of their predesesors.

We must live in a different country, because under Paul Martin, my income taxes have been cut twice. The ony tax increases i have suffered of late have been property taxes.

Sure there has been waste - the HRDC loosing a billion dollars, the gun registry programme costing another billion, but it pales in comparison to Mulroney and his corrupt conservative blow boys. That bastard was running 50 billion dollar deficits, and exactly where did that money go?

Lastly, I would respectfully point out that luck has nothing to do with a strong economy my friend. The strongest economy amoung all G-7 nations does not come without a sound fiscal policy. I am quite sure that the boys in Calgary love Martin just like the boys in Bay Street, and would gladly have him in big chair before Stephen Harper.

If by any of their predecessors you mean Mulrooney, you might have a point...but otherwise that is a pretty big claim you can't substantiate.

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We must live in a different country, because under Paul Martin, my income taxes have been cut twice. The ony tax increases i have suffered of late have been property taxes.

You don't notice the taxes because they are the order-in-council kind, or they are not consumer taxes and therefor you don't notice them directly.

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Sure there has been waste - the HRDC loosing a billion dollars, the gun registry programme costing another billion, but it pales in comparison to Mulroney and his corrupt conservative blow boys. That bastard was running 50 billion dollar deficits, and exactly where did that money go?

Would you stop bringing up Mulroney? He is irrelevant. His corruption does not justify theirs, nor does his relatively worse actions make theirs any more acceptable.

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Lastly, I would respectfully point out that luck has nothing to do with a strong economy my friend. The strongest economy amoung all G-7 nations does not come without a sound fiscal policy. I am quite sure that the boys in Calgary love Martin just like the boys in Bay Street, and would gladly have him in big chair before Stephen Harper.

Circumstance has been a hell of alot of it, Martin and the liberals are just great at taking credit for it. Regardless, I agree that he hasn't done that bad a job ensuring that we can benefit from circumstance, but I still think that Alberta would do better if we were less tied into the federal government...even if it wasn't complete seperation and involved a huge decrease in our federal taxes.

Ontario is a net payer.

We pay more than we get back.

The additional cash goes to help support those provinces less fortunate.

I accept that and figure that it's the right thing to do.

It's funny, but you don't hear the Americans squabbling about the fact that some states pay more than they get (of that i am sure.) They just figure it's for the good of the country.

When political power is concentrated in Ontario that is an easier thing to do, isn't it. You aren't in the same politically excluded position as Alberta.

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It's funny, but you don't hear the Americans squabbling about the fact that some states pay more than they get (of that i am sure.) They just figure it's for the good of the country.

Yes, well they probably feel that being a part of the country benefits them, where as we don't. This goes beyond transfer payments.

Tell ya what.

Let's move Ottawa to Lethbridge, then see how YOU like dealing with it.

Well the physical placement of the capital doesn't really have much to do with it since it won't change how things are run, but thanks for not really responding but instead trying to avoid the arguement. It really makes me feel correct.

Actually, I was flipping through the May 12 edition of McLeans magazine today and ironically, the editor's column was talking about how little aid came from the Federal Gov't to Toronto regarding the recent SARS crisis which has cost the City of Toronto upwards of a billion dollars in lost revenue.

The FEDS offered 10 million in disaster relief, which the editor contrasted to the 157 million given by the Federal Gov't to the West when the Red River flooded in 1997and the 717 million given to quebec during the ice storm of 1998 i believe.

Sorry i can't post the link, you will have to pick up the May 12, 2003 edtion of McLeans. Their site won't allow you to read the magazine for free i would guess.

So don't feel too hard done by there smashy......

And they have green camoflauge too! In the desert! I wonder if the PC's will ever gain majority again, after all of that Brian Mulroney jet scandal crappy PM stuff. I would love to see Joe Clark as PM, but I don't think that will happen any time soon. Friggin' liberal dictatorship, I tellls ya!

Well, seeing as joe clark is stepping down, i doubt he will ever be PM eiter, and as long as the reform exists to split the vote on the right, i doubt you will ever see anything but a liberal gov't.

The reform need to go away....

Wow, I had no idea there was such a seedy underbelly to Canadian politics. This is an interesting read.

This is only scratching the surface... wait until Senate Reform gets trotted out...

I'm in the Canadian military and the fact that the boys don't have there weapons is not very confidence building...

As for Alberta separating...I just got back from there and you can keep it!!!
:D

But you can't take it.

Canada must remain united or the States will buy us out from under our feet!!!!!

Back off USA or you get none of our bacon!!!!!;)

Indeed.

well, it might be dumb....but at least they showed up.

hehe...that would be interesting LOL.

Sad but true.

You could see a minority government... Liberal/NDP or Liberal/PC (if the PC can swing the vote).

One of the most successful governments in the past 40 years was a coalition of Liberals and NDP.

Anything but Reform and Bloc...

I think the main reason I don't see Paul Martin as such a "wonder" economist is the fact that he's merely refunding some of the money that the Liberal party took under Trudeau in the social splurge. It seems great to ya now, but let's look at the big picture. Hypothetically, let's draw some numbers. Let's say that under Trudeau, they take $20 million. Now, under Paul they give back $8 million. It seems great now, but look at the net result. Don't get me wrong, I love Paul for getting that money back to us. It's just that I think we should be paying off the debt even more so. I mean, if we all personally ran our households the way the government runs the country (with the debt, etc.), we'd have all our possessions repo'd and be out on our butts in the street.

As for how the federal government is run, I'm all for the whole electronic voting in the House. I think that it could be done safely enough that we wouldn't need to worry about electronic hampering. We'd still have elected officials, but they could actually express their opinions through their votes. If you're a liberal and you don't vote as Jean, you're kicked out (for the most part). Same for the other parties. That's not right. That's just an elected dictatorship. We vote privately; why don't they? It's almost foolish to think that everyone in a party will hold exactly the same views. Humans are too complex and wonderful for that, I think.

On the Senate? Get rid of it. The PM can use the clause in the BNA (I think this one) where he can just overthrow the vote (like Mulroney did). Our taxes are just going to pad the wallets of some lucky stiffs who do nothing. If they were as involved as the US Senate, keep 'em. But they aren't and so they're just wasting our tax dollars.

As for the Reform going away........

1). the PC either need to realize that they are washed up and join (which I don't necessarily agree with)

2). the Reform needs to get their act together to get the majority (they came so far so quick).

3). the Reform need to disband, join the PC, and both need to "meet in the middle" over issues.

4). EVERYONE NEEDS TO VOTE! This one still ticks me off. If we're a liberal country--fine. If we're a conservative country--fine. But we'll never truly know until everyone votes. As sad as it is, the destiny of the many is being decided by the few (when the many have a chance to change that........that's the part that gets me).

I am all for abolishing the senate.

It's a usless piece of crap that serves NO purpose. Get rid of it.

Furthermore, get rid of half the politicians we do have. Every province has half the MP's it currently has.

There is no need to have so many hangers on.

I say give Senate teeth... have an elected Senate and give them the power they should have to act as a balance to the Parliament.

As it stands, when there is a majority government in power, the PMO can do what it wants...

I also say let's get rid of the Queen... It's about time we had a Republic of Canada.

I'm all for giving the Senate power except one huge problem. Making changes to the BNA (I think this is the one that the PM uses to, basically, overthrow the Senate. If it's not this one, please tell me which one it is cuz I'd like to know) would make it so that people would wanna change other stuff, too. Remember Meech Lake? So while giving the Senate teeth (ala U.S. which got it right IMHO), I don't find it feasible. You're, essentially, asking Parliament to give up some of their power. I'm sure they'd love to do that. ;)

As for the Queen..........as long as she's not getting a huge chunk of our taxes, I haven't a huge problem with her. She is a part of our heritage, but as soon as the old hag becomes a money pit, lose her. Her coming over and all is nice, but there's no bloody way my tax dollars are going over to the U.K. to heat all her palaces, etc. That may seem a lil' shallow, but I can stay true to my heritage of Britain just as easily by hanging a pic of her somewhere than pay taxes to her (odd, seeing as how I'm a "put your money where your mouth is" kinda guy). I guess I don't really feel any allegiance to her because she's not our leader anymore.

The British North America Act is no longer in effect. It was superceded by the Canada Act (Constitutional Act of 1982). The Canada Act made us a fully sovreign state.

It combines the old BNA and incorportates a number of amendments. It was agreed upon by all provinces except Quebec.

It would take some Constitutional wrangling but I'd say now is the time. With Jean Charest as Premiere in Quebec we might be able to finaly get Quebec into the fold.

Then again I am sure we have enough things to worry about with out picking at that scab again.

Wow. If you're going to send your troops somewhere, then give them weapons. Dear god.


On a side note: Tim Hortons is the shiznit! I loved that place! Bout the only place worth going to in Canada.... (i kid, i kid ;))

Indeed. IMO, Quebec will never have a referendum again. If it didn't work in the 80's with Levesque in power, all the brouhaha over the "night of long knives," and the separatist movement at its most fevered pitch, then it's never going to work. Therefore, any need to "get Quebec back into the fold" is totally pointless, since there will always be nationalists bitching about being served in English only no matter what the consitution reads. While I'm proud of my French-Canadian heritage, I'm also very proud to be Canadian, even if we send unarmed troops abroad. We know kung fu.

Very well said. Its incredibly frustrating that people complain and complain about our government but won't do anything about it!.