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What Do We Do Now? leave Iraq to Iraqis
An excellent column on why we should get out of Iraq -- by historian Howard Zinn.
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And if you liked that column, here is another of his describing some of the consequences of war including some things we don't generally think about. |
He writes well.
Unfortunately, he also revises history well. Just two examples: There was a bloodbath when we left Viet Nam. Anyone who was even remotely connected with the South was slaughtered. Hiroshima. Wow, that has been discussed ad nauseum on this board, but he talks as if it is common knowledge that we didn't have to drop the bomb instead of a minority opinion. I'm sorry, but he has no credibility in my eyes. |
Zinn is a well respected historian. I don't know much about the "bloodbath" (I don't have time to look), but the attack on Hiroshima was unnecessary.
http://www.larouchepub.com/other/200...hiroshima.html http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v16/v16n3p-4_Weber.html http://www.nuclearfiles.org/hitimeline/1945.html |
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As I said, Hiroshima has been covered extensively on this board and Zinn's is the minority opinion. |
:hmm: With all do respect, this board does not have a monopoly on the truth. Now, if you don't want to discuss this any further that is fine, but I'm not the one who brought it up.
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I simply stated that your historian doesn't have a lot of credibility as far as I am concerned and why. |
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He has some good point, but I don't like the idea that the US leaves Iraq. They made the mess, they have to clean it. Leaving in a hurry could result in a much bigger mess (kurds in the noth declare independence -> turkey intervens) But I also don't know what to do, unlike other people I think the situation in Iraq is far from "normal" or is "good". And I'm afraid things will get worse. |
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Feel free to dig it up again and I'll feel free to shoot that down again. |
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I only needed to read the first paragraph.
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Wow this guy is a freaking moron.
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As stated above, this guy is a moron. Dont like the fact we're in Iraq? fine by me, I wasn't sure about it myself. But the fact is we can not back out, no matter how much these cowards want it. |
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And I said it before, you cannot compare Germany and Japan to the current situation in Iraq. Quote:
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How quickly people forget what 'indiscriminate bombing' really is. Seen any pictures of London or Berlin during WWII? Or any of the other cities that were nightly bombed? THAT's indiscriminate bombing. The US strategically bombed Iraq, and they DID drop leaflets over the city, with instructions on how NOT to get killed by American forces.
You have to stop believing all the naysayers out there who just LOVE to make the USA look bad. We aren't animals, we don't kill for pleasure. War is ugly, and bad things happen. I don't think we should sugar coat it for the world either. They need to be shown what you face if you mess with the US. |
can we please put the brakes posting these poorly conceived editorials? at least give us some of your own insight/analysis with it.
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You may point out civilians caught in crossfire. It's the Iraqis that are forcing women/children to run into the fight to grab fallen weapons, while the Americans yell at them to stay low. It is the untrained militia that fire wildly killing the civilians, not the highly accurate US grunt. It is the Iraqis that are forcing the US to use weapons against Mosques. Or would you rather allow them to fire from behind those sacred monuments? Quote:
Strike one for you. Quote:
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Wow, strike three what do you know... |
First, if you would like to discuss knock that "strike" BS off!
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every situation is like WW2, every dictator is like hitler and the world is black and white... |
Is that really where you want the argument to go? Guessing the intention of one particular individual who fought for the Americans in one of the last few wars we've been in. You suggested it was common practice by saying that "our military'" as a whole uses indiscriminate force and shoots people on suspicion. I'd be interested in knowing the numbers of american soldiers who have been killed as a result of the "discrimination" they use. I'm sure they're families would appreciate that remark
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I'm with Seaver. Zinn is an ass. Always has been.
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Lets see here: Bridges: destroyed in both cases Infrastructure: Iraq has electricity/water/sanitation... G/J had none Government: being built, enforced through occupying forces... same for both Post-War battles: Occured in Germany, Japan recieved orders to stop fighting by their emperor which quelled down insurgency. Occupation in Germany to quelle fighting lasted for two years after the war, it will probably last as long for Iraq. So same for both. Natural Resources: Germans greatest resource (skilled labor force) was obliterated, along with all industry. Japanese greatest resources (labor force and highly skilled army/navy) was completely obliterated. Iraqis greatest resources (oil and skilled labor force) remains intact. International Grants/Loans: G/J had the massive monetary grant to rebuild their economy, same will come to Iraq. Wow, seems to me that Iraq is in fact in a better position for nation building than Post-WWII occupied countries... strike four for you. |
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Oh no, my father served and I serve so suddenly I'm the master at this. Well uh great, its not like others here haven't served, and the claim to fame that so many family members served is great - then one realizes others do too. Try to take the high ground?
EIther way this is a classic example of those who aren't willing to consider the other side and are willing to dismiss it first hand simply because they don't agree with a few lines And Seaver, listing things there does not mean a bit when the location, situatin in the world, and ideology are quite different. Anyone can build a country up with the resources the U.S. has if the area is safe without the geopolitical implications of failure, but Iraq is far different from Germany and Japan than a few bridges and money. |
My point was I think being raised in the military, and currently serving myself, I think I know a little more about what goes on than someone who reads radical publications which rely on statistics that have no validity.
I didnt simply dismiss this guy, I read everything he had to say, and tore his argument to pieces. There is a difference, it is like expecting people to agree with neo-nazis because they can spew out a few statistics which simply dont add up. nanofever, read any books on the post-WWII period. Thats the sources I used in a 15 page report less than a year ago, I dont feel like pulling them back up atm. zeld my point was they face almost the exact same geopolitical and economic problems, I dont see much of a difference besides location and religion. |
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Also, in addition to that, it is TONS of fun to sit back and watch you all tear it apart. Believe me, it's very satisfying. :thumbsup: |
location and religion figure big enough - many would say location is what made america, america, and religion is what it is and history vindicates that
and the same geopolitical situation? in the world? last i checked, Germany, Japan and Italy had much to go with the Cold War going on greatly influencing their nations economic? whole different era here we're speaking of as well as resource wise, resources are only so good as the people are willing to use them i'd like to believe Iraq will follow the Germany / Japan model but given the situation there, in the world, the neighboring nations, and our own status, the situation is not as easy to predict given the different circumstances p.s. the cold war is big |
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It also results in different religious groups (shiites and Sunnites), something we didn't had in Germany. But I'm afraid the US Administration was, just like you, unable to see that or considered it not to be important. |
With the renewed attack on Fallujah I am seeing this administration's goal to completely finish this war by allowing the US military to control the tactics.
I believe that The Bush administration is done with the public polls, and it is in his and our's as a nation interests that we finish this war decisively. We have tried the diplomatic routes and it didnt work. Now the US will take back Fallujah, with the force that should be expected. Which we have told the world of our intention, if the Iraqi resistience use a mosque, hospital, or another civilian structure it becomes a military target. Probably after that Najaf will come under complete US control. With the same force. The end of June hand over date is looking brighter. |
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"But wait... thats not what I've been hearing on the news!" Do some research and you'll understand. You want resources? Read Neo-Tribalism in Iraq: Saddam Hussein's Tribal Policies 1991-96. By Amatizia Baram Tribes transend the religious divisions in Iraq, hell the majority of Shi'it tribes supported Saddam in the uprisings in '91, not because they were scared but because of his policy divisions. If religion was the major division they would have supported the revolt dont you think? No need to go down to the level of attacking me or my thoughts by the way, because I back them up. BTW Zeld... good points. I dont agree with the amount of influence you hold true but definately valid points. |
Western democracy is based on constitutional liberalism which is a concept not in place in Iraq. It takes a long time to cement these ideas. To compare Iraq to post WWII Germany, etc. is to ignore the true precursors for democracy.
SLM3 |
To add onto SLM3...
Take South Vietnam for example. After the Geneva settlement in 1956, the United States still supplied a great amount of money, supplies, and experts to South Vietnam. Under Eisenhower and then Kennedy we attempted what we call "nation-building." We wanted to build South Vietnam into a democracy following the United States model. A major underlying factor, however, that many do not catch is the concept of democracy is different in places around the world. Asian societies, including Vietnam, are often built on Confucanism. In Confucianism, there is no such thing as multiple truths - there is just one absolute truth. Thus, there is no pluralistic background in Vietnamese society. In America, we can take an issue, say education, and look at it from different views, and still we are able to not only agree with a core set of beliefs (in other words, what makes Americans, American) while we look at subjects in multiple ways that we hold true. In Vietnam, divided into sects and groups, there was no middle ground of compromise. Democracy failed in a society with no pluralistic background. It failed in a society that had long been built on autocracy. Hundreds and even thousands of years under Emperors, under foreign powers such as China and then the French, left the society away from democracy. This is why many believe Russia may never fully achieve democracy as we know it. They, for thousands of years, have lived under autocratic and often times ruthless leaders. Just decades ago, they lived under a totalitarian regime. This is why many do not see democracy in China as we know it in any time soon. The Chinese themselves are not all the same - within China alone there are thousands of dialects and different groups and ethnicities inside. Their history is one long of autocratic rule from the inside and outside. One might bring up Japan and ask why Japan, an Asian country, was different. But Japan did have a democratic tradition extending from the Meiji period to the late 20's / early 30s when the military took over. The end of World War II esentially restored the government back to where it had been, a democracy. Different nations and different people live with different beliefs and ideas. The United States is a relative newcomer to the world stage when compared to these countries built upon ancient civilizations. Iraq is at the heart of the Fertile Crescent where early civilization began. These are long roots extending far into the past. With religion thrown into the mix, it takes more than simple bridges and comparisons with nations to show why "nation building" isn't the simple pump cash in and impose a constitution. Its why democracies vary from nation to nation. Its why societies and governments are different all throughout. Whew what a bunch of typing |
very good posting Zeld.
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I'm afraid this arrogance, this "we tell you how to live" attitude is a major part in why those people don't like us. Who likes beeing bossed around? |
You're the Man!!
Tell them!!! |
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