If ever there was a ideal cruise missile target
 

I wish I could have targeted that site as this was happening. What kind of people behave like this?


http://images.latimes.com/media/phot...3/12044482.jpg


U.S. promises revenge for Iraq atrocity

Re: If ever there was a ideal cruise missile target
 

The article: Link

speculation on the societal/religious/rationality differences that separate our society from those involved with this will undoubtedly go on.

for now, i think it's safe to say that there are people out there whose conception of the world and human life is very different from the one i hold.

there isn't a person on this earth i would do this to. if i were to find hitler, osama bin laden, stalin and pal pot in my country... doing this wouldn't even cross my mind. it's just hard to wrap my mind around people celebrating the cold-blooded murder of four security guards sent to monitor shipments of free food given to their own people, and then removing all dignity from their victims.

man...

Because lynchings have never occured in America...

Because people have never been tortured to death in America...

Because the Iraqi people should be so glad America occupies their land, and it is beyond belief to show such ingratitude...

Why dont you save some outrage for all of the Iraqi's killed by American troops too?

SF is right, our troops just got what they deserved. The Iraqi people are completely justified in brutally mutilating the corpses of soldiers that they kill. In fact, we should be grateful that they think enough of us to take the trouble. How dare anyone state otherwise. :hmm:

Try as you might, there is no justification or excuse for something like this.

While not out of hand yet, I see the potential.

One thread has been locked tonight, please don't make it another.



I will agree that two wrongs don't make a right, even if the circumstances were similiar, which in this case, they aren't.

Murder is murder... the point is the Iraqi mob wouldnt have killed any American's if you hadnt occupied their country, bombed their infrastructure into the middle ages, and killed 1000's of civilians.

The death of 4 people is easier to be outraged about than the death of 1000's, because its easier to conceive of I guess.

It doesnt make me happy to see anyone killed, or to see people tear apart the corpses of the dead in a rage, but this is the situation America (and the UK) has created... you cannot attack and beat and torment a people and forever expect them to be docile and weak.

I am sure the Americans will carry out many murders to avenge these deaths, the general interviewed in the linked article basically promised that... so this will just create more loss of life, maybe some of the people the Americans kill will be guilty, some will surely be innocent. War = death, and ugly death, the people of Iraq are being ground into nothing - you bomb their infrastructure and leave them half starving them bring them some food and expect them to thank you?

Honestly, I dont feel any happiness to see American soldiers and mercenaries killed - the death of every casualty of war saddens me... but when you invade a country, when you are a part of an occupying force, enforcing your will on Iraq by violence... you have to expect people will fight back.

I dont think any sane person enjoys this sort of spectacle, whether it is Mussilini hung up froma meat hook, or American mercanaries hanged from a bridge, but as long as the war goes on this wont stop... there will always be patriotic and religious Iraqi's that will resist the pagan American forces who are stealing their country from them.

That's the part that struck me. He attributes these actions to beliefs like we are tolerant of violence and then threatens violence to illustrate how intolerant we are of it!

Man, you are out there. Those soldiers you refer to are risking their lives every day over there trying to help these same people. For you to imply that it is a savage occupation where troops are there solely to put down the Iraqi people is ludicrous. There is no justification for a scene like this. No way, no how.

FYI SF, the four men killed were NOT soldiers, but civilians. I agree with the original poster-let's blown the town up.

LSD

Actually they weren't just civilians. They were mercenaries. 1000 dollar a day mercenaries whose company claim they were protecting a food caravan.

Food isn't that valuable, and there is no hunger problem in Iraq. Something is fishy.

War is hell...plain and simple. But this sort of thing pisses me off to the depths of my soul.
Yeah War is hell.....so lets send those bastards there for a while.
Perhaps the seventh level of hell will do.

I was listening to a news report this morning how in the town where this outrageous act occured there is a very mixxed feeling.

Partially a feeling of pride over this little victory over the 4 security advisors, and also extreme embarassment over the heinous acts to the corpses of these dead Americans.

In the Muslim faith it is apparently a MASSIVE no-no to show disrespect to a corpse and many are troubled because of this.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story...184313,00.html
The security firm "declines to give further details" other than that they were protecting a food convoy in an area where food isn't a problem.

Yeah, if anyone can show these ingrates how to kill "civilians" it's america. Once we do blow this town up, all of the violence over there will undoubtedly stop.

They were part of a security force, which is the second largest armed force in Iraq, after coalition forces. The fact they were killed is , unfortunately, a part of warfare. The issue is the WAY they were killed, and the actions of the mob afterward.
This is a very bad situation, and will likely get much worse. The next move by our leadership will be very telling, and could very well change the nature of our occupation in Iraq, for better, or worse.

Very true and if George Bush thinks he is going to change the mid eastern cultural identity which has been in existence from the beginning of recorded time to what he thinks it should be, these types of instances will continue.

I certainly don't condone the actions of these people and I believe this is a very small minority who take pride and celebrate this unfortunate event.

Can I understand why some Iraqi's feel this way? Yes. Is it right? That I can't answer because it doesn't directly involve me or my way of life.

I believe the American's are trying to help the Iraqi's to have a better life. I just think that some Iraqi's don't want to be told how to live their life, especially from a country that is of polar opposites, culturally and societally speaking.

i love it how security guards protecting food shipments become mercenaries.

better yet... when a company that has had 4 employees brutally murdered and had their bodies displayed on TV screens around the world raises suspicion about itself when it declines to comment a day after the events took place.

Ok, first, they are Mercenaries, by definition.

They were specifically hired to assist in the overthrowing a Government. These firms have been active in Iraq, in combat since the war started.

Being a merc is not always a knock. That's just the fact of the matter. They are not security guards. Security guards do not make $1000 a day or more.

You don't pay 4000 dollars for men so that they can escort a food supply that has not been endangered and is not a crucial commodity. You can pay 4 Iraqi's 50 dollars a day to do something like that. The food isn't worth that much.

Because that official story falls through under scrutiny the company declining to elaborate on their job that day comes under suspicion.

This is the first time in this whole campaign that americans were so brutally violated after death. It is specifically forbidden in the Islamic faith to desecrate a body after it is dead, even a dog.
It seems to me that it is at least possible that something extreme may have happened that day that precipitated the situation we now see.

I see people everywhere right now jumping down this entire town's throats. And, though I believe the ones who participated deserve some retribution it should be pointed out that the americans may have played a significant part in what happened and the retaliation that will follow, upon the whole city, may not be justified.

It's just as likely that the members of this mob were insurgents staging this event to draw international attention and get people believing that all the "regular Iraqis" are fed up with the "occupation".

Newsflash: they aren't there to assist in the overthrowing of a government, the government that was there was thrown over long ago.

also, you can't define someone's job by how much money they are making. if security guards are necessary (and it appears that they are), i guarantee you it would take more money than they are making to get me to volunteer for the job. sure, a mall-cop doesn't make that much... but a mall-cop isn't roughing it on the other side of the world; enduring extreme weather, hostile locals, and the occassional torture and dismemberment orgy.

sure, it's possible that there is something else afoot here... but you have nothing but speculation and suspicion to support those theories. neither you or i are privy to the situation over there in a first-hand sense. who are we to decide from our computer desks what kind of security is needed, or at what price a caravan of food must be defended?

What is your definition of mercenary? Isn't it a private citizen who agrees to fight in another country for money?

--http://www.latimes.com/la-fg-security2apr02,1,1929057.story

edit: I couldn't find the Times article about lower troop moral due to outsourcing the military. The point it was drawing is that our professional troops are getting paid less than these private ones, foreign nations are getting pissed because we are hiring their cops and military, and this is continuing the trend of privitizing our military.

I was able to find this story that mirrors the one I read in the Times a few weeks back:

--http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/03/05/1078464637030.html

Why is it even an issue of what word you use to describe the four people whose corpses were mutilated and put on display? No one -- soldier, civilian, or ex-dictator -- deserves that. It's abhorrent and inhuman, and I really have to question why any of you would seek to justify it.

Still up to your old tricks, I see.

What exactly is your question? Please try to phrase it without putting words in my mouth.

No one I've seen has justified what happened. What we responded to, however, was the idea that this was somehow worse because civilians were targeted. We pointed out that the victims were not civilians, but rather people whose reason for being in Iraq was for a paycheck--not altruism. That's what mercenaries do--they fight for money, not ideology or defense. I don't justify what happened, but by the same token I don't particularly give a shit that it did--the danger of this type of thing happening is why they are being paid so much. Wasn't it people in support of this war arguing that criticism of the atrocities are irrelevent because that's the nature of war? Well, now why is it different when the atrocities happen to the "good guys?" I think that's bullshit and I also think it's buillshit that one of the military commanders is threatening a hellstorm on an innocent village because of the actions of a few people like these fucking four people are somehow worth more than the villagers who didn't do jack shit and are abhorred by what happened.

I have a hunch that the issue with a lot of people is not the behavior of the people who committed these atrocities, but that the evil Americans are only getting what they deserve. No matter how atrocious the act, the fault ultimately lies with the U.S.A.

So a bunch of barbarians mutilated some corpses, it must have been well deserved or it wouldn’t have happened. The people who were ambushed, shot, burnt beyond recognition and hacked up, before being hung on public display surely were “mercenaries” so it is justified. No way were these people just protecting a food shipment, meant for the very people who attacked them. Surely something much more sinister must have been going on.

Maybe it is what it is. A bunch of barbarians attacked a group of people whom they believed had no right to be on their land. People who if armed, for some reason didn’t return fire. Then they mutilated their corpses and hung them from a bridge. Then they danced for joy and gloated over their great achievement.

And it sickens me that there are people who consider this Americas just reward for attempting to improve the lot of another people.

I think what he threatened was that the people responsible would be killed or captured. I saw no threats of destroying the entire village. But surely thats what the evil empire will do.

Well now that you've put it that way, I've changed my mind.

I now think that if someone came to my hometown, uninvited, to "improve the lot" of my family, but routinely ransacked my house looking for weapons and occasionally shot my siblings and friends, I'd cut those people into little pieces and toss them in a stew. I'd send some pieces to their families and make it real fucking clear that I don't want that type of help. I didn't ask for it and I'm not liking it. And I wouldn't feel the least bit of guilt about what I did.

The soldiers, mercs, and civs over there aren't mourning the children they've killed, they're just collecting blood money. So now I think you're right. I think that this was deserved on some level. Thanks for convincing me, because before I was just trying to understand how someone could do this. Now I not only understand, I think I'd probably do the same thing.

Damn strait it will. That's what it's been doing so far.

BTW, what's the first sentence of the story say?

Yeah, that's what I thought.

Reading your posts I don't doubt that a bit.
Sorry, but I was under the impression that some Iraqis were better off than they were a year ago and were actually happy a brutal dictator had been removed. But surely thats just propaganda, and all of them have actually been tortured and ravaged by the brutal child killing Americans.

I was mainly interested to see how far you or seretogis would take your ridiculous accusations.

Once you two stepped in, the discussion took a dive. I'll come back in a week to see if it's recovered. Maybe you'll take a break and revisit this thread when you are less prone to start accusing fellow Americans of hating their country, shoving nasty statements in their mouths that they never said or would say ("evil," "child killing," ? fucking please spare me the theatrics), and just in general not adding much to the discussion.

We were providing context for how these things don't happen in a vacuum, but that doesn't fit into your dichotomous good vs. evil paradigm. Thumbs up, baby, have fun castigating fellow citizens in persuit of your value of freedom and helping others. The altruism flowing from your eyes unfortunately prevents you from seeing what the people you claim to be helping actually want--you to leave them the fuck alone.

It's like when little johnny is splattering brownie batter all over the kitchen and his mommy has to say," mommy really appreciates your help in making the brownies, but it might help more if you played with your Legos over there..."

Yeah, I can see that I shoved these nasty statements right into your mouth. You had absolutely nothing to do with it.:thumbsup:

Man, I've got to clear this up before leaving this thread to the dogs, cuz you are totally out of control.

You started this thread by asking what kind of people do this sort of thing.

Me, and a few others, replied that someone who looks out his or her window and sees foreigners invading one's hometown are going to react violently and, to some people, irrationally.

The response from both you and seretogis was to accuse me of being anti-american, to think of my nation as "evil" and as somehow justifying these actions.

Why the fuck did you even ask the question? You didn't want to know what people think could be the reason for these actions, you either wanted someone to stroke you off and support your preconception that these are unworthy barbarians who deserved to be slaughtered as fast as possible (send a cruise missile into the group of people, right?) or you wanted to castigate some fellow citizens who love the country they grew up in too.

You've been doing this shit for over two years now. So rather than continue beating my head against the wall, I conceded that you've got me--I'm an American hating citizen who just can't wait to cut people up and throw them in my stew. You can't fucking recognize how retarded you sound to me when you reply that you don't doubt I would actually do that?!

Let me just point out your very basic absence of comprehension:

1) you pointed out that you didn't read anything that would lead you to believe the commander was going to seek retribution on the whole twon

In the very first sentence of the story you quoted, the commander stated that they were going to show the Iraqi's just how serious they were about this with "overwhelming force."

2) you seem to think the Iraqi people are happy we are liberating them

once again, in the first line of the story you posted, the commander states that they are going to "retake" the city. That means they already took it, and lost it! The US military, arguably the most powerful, best equipped, and well-trained military in the history of civilization, didn't lose a city to a rag-tag group of barbarians. They lost it because the people don't want them there!

3) You claim that I think my country is evil and child killers

I didn't say that shit. First of all, I don't walk around talking about good vs. evil. I left that crap in the playground with my Star Wars figures. I've got an adult perspective on human behavior now that doesn't relegate motivation to the great pie in the sky--maybe you'll join me someday.

Secondly, bombs and bullets have killed children. That's a fact that weighs heavily on the families of those affected. I didn't state that americans are baby-killers, though, or that soldiers are baby-killers by definition. And if you had actually bothered to read through my entire post, you would have seen that I was opposed to hiring people from chile and other foreign nations to do some dirty war. So if I think those mercs are working for blood money, how the fuck do you get off accusing me of saying anything negative about our brave soldiers who have to die and kill for people who believe like you?

Now, I admit I haven't read all of the previous posts, but from what I did read, it seems to me like this is mostly an argument on whether or not we should ever have gone, and, having done so, whether we should still be there.

This is entirely beside the point. We are there. Y'all know how I feel about that. In fact, there is only one thing that I can think of that I agree with Dubya on is this - Iraq is integral to the war on terror. Change that "is" to a "was" and we disagree again (and I don't think he knows what the word integral mean or how to say it). But the fact remains, we are there and, like it or not, it is part of the war on terror.

So that brings us round to two things: What to do about it and how to stop it from happening again.

I think even the most ardent peacenik would agree that we are stuck in Iraq. It's not so much a matter of how to get us out right now as how to get us out in the minimum amount of time with the smallest loss of life on both sides as possible, and in such a way that the bloodthirsty bastards who dragged us over there to begin with don't have an easy excuse to do it all again.

My gut instinct is to give everyone in Faluja 15 minutes to get out of town, then burn and bulldoze the thing. Or maybe tattoo a red hand on the forehead of every inhabitant over the age of 11. This is, of course, no kind of solution (though I have to wonder if something severe, drastic, and thoroughly barbaric wouldn't in this day and age, shock people so much that they what? Surrender? Accept? Live in fear?)

So 1) We're there, 2) It is now a legitimate battlefield, 3) and we can't leave any time soon.

What now?

Sounds to me like you may have some anger control issues, not to mention memory lapses. I put no words into your mouth. Anyone who reads your posts can see your disdain for our " brave soldiers".

A qoute or two may be in order.

smooth says

"I now think that if someone came to my hometown, uninvited, to "improve the lot" of my family, but routinely ransacked my house looking for weapons and occasionally shot my siblings and friends, I'd cut those people into little pieces and toss them in a stew.to their families and make it real fucking clear that I don't want that type of help. I didn't ask for it and I'm not liking it. And I wouldn't feel the least bit of guilt about what I did."


You said it and now you say I sound retarded for saying I believe you. Sheesh.


"The soldiers, mercs, and civs over there aren't mourning the children they've killed, they're just collecting blood money."

Yes, I can see your respect for our soldiers.



"So now I think you're right. I think that this was deserved on some level. Thanks for convincing me, because before I was just trying to understand how someone could do this. Now I not only understand, I think I'd probably do the same thing."

Here you say you believe those people got what they deserved.


Smooth says, in relation tothe " brave soldiers" retribution on the entire town.

"Damn strait it will. That's what it's been doing so far."

So, you will have to excuse me if I take you at your word and interpret your statements for what they appear to be.
But then again, it's me thats out of control. I'm sure you're just fine.

I agree with smooth.

He's a smoooooth operator!


Wasn't the tilted right just recently pewling about how the left doesn't listen to reason?

No one on this post made any kind of endorsement of this brutality until after seretogis showed up with his fake outrage posturing. Even then, the only endorsement was more to prove a point.

Allow me to paraphrase the arguments of one crewsor and one seretogis in a fashion similar to the way that they have paraphrased the arguments of others on this thread:
Americans, wherever they are, shit sunshine. We are incapable of ever making any kind of political or international mistake. Foreigners are worth less then americans. When atrocities happen to foreigners it is simply one of the unpleasant things about war. When atrocities happen to americans, or anyone being paid by americans, such things are disgusting, malicious and should be swiftly punished by killing every last man woman and child in the town where it happened. That will send a clear message that americans don't mess around when it comes to punishing upstart rapscallions. Also, anyone who has the audacity to question america's foreign policy is obviously a coward and a traitor waiting for the opportune moment to sink his poison fangs into the very throat of the democracy that evey real american is willing to give their life for. Obviously, the pentagon would never decieve us in any way so we must take everything they say as the gospel that it is.

In summary, when you have no other recourse, attack a broad caricature of your opponent's argument rather than anything directly related to what he/she said. Then sit back and watch the straw fly.

Well Done!! Encore Gentlemen!!

You needn't state you agree with smooth filtherton. I can see that by your sig. But thanks anyway.

I hope you didn't use that as an excuse to not read my post.

btw. Does that mean that you think elder bush and mr. snowcroft agree with smooth too? They said it first.

ah shit, I shouldn't have said you sounded like a retard for believing what I wrote.

My bad and apologies for jumping your shit over that portion.

I should have dropped a sarcasm tag or something to let you know I was just feeding your caricature of me to illustrate how ludicrous it was.

I didn't mean you were out of control, I just couldn't think of anything else at the time that wouldn't get me banned.

I still stand by my contention that you don't appear to be genuinely interested in the "why" this occurred from the Iraqi's perspective, or how normal people can revert to these atrocious acts even if they aren't barbarians due to barbaric cirucmstances.

p.s., I guess my "Junkie" status is just going to have to excuse me from my lie and spy of the thread! ;)

No, I read your post.
When Bush Sr. said it, if he did. It was a different time, different circumstance.

I'm not a big fan of either Bush, Jr. or Sr. That war hits very close to home for me.

But the facts are, we are over there now. Americans and Iraqis alike face loss of life.
Yeah I know, war is hell. But war is one thing, barbarism is another. If they had ambushed those people and left it at that, I could comprehend that as casualties of war. Its happening every day and its terrible.
But the act of mutilating and desecrating corpses crosses any lines of decency.
The thing that gets me is I don't understand people who seem to justify that kind of behavior as understandable, given the circumstances. I just don't accept that. But I guess thats just me.

Oh, and btw. I didn't paraphrase. I used direct quotes.

Direct quotes of your implication/paraphrasation(if that is, indeed, a word).

Again, nobody is trying to paint this as less of an atrocity than it obviously is.

I don't think thats a word. And thats not quite the same, but I get your point.

But it does seem to me that some seek to portray this as justified. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

Agreed.

Maybe amplification of this point will help you understand where some of us are coming from. To us, war is barbarism.

"fighting is crude and uncivilized especially if the weapons are efficient"

--Margaret Meade (sociologist in her own right and wife of George Herber Meade, one of the founders of social-psych)

One could say that explaining the circumstances surrounding such behavior is justifying it.

But if you are going to operate with that definition then asking someone to explain it to you is just baiting someone for an argument.

My understanding of justification, however, is that something is excusable. That is vastly different than pointing out the underlying, contextual reasons for one's actions.

We are going to have to agree to disagree because I believe that attempting to understand one's behavior does not at all imply acceptance that the behavior is appropriate.

It was a rhetorical question. I KNOW what kind of people behave that way. But thanks for your explanation anyway. I'm much more enlightened now.

Great, there you have it. Straight from the OP's mouth. You were baiting people who were going to make an attempt at answering your question since you already know the answer--that's pretty shitty.

Everyone who wasted their time trying to answer your rhetorical question are actually the ones who are more enlightened.

:rolleyes:

I thought I presented it pretty clearly, but I guess I'll try again: Why does it matter if the four people were soldiers, or civilians?

Our soldiers, as well as those of the opposition, should be able to expect that their corpses not be set on fire and mutilated.

I suggest re-reading the thread -- in particular, posts by SF. Superbelt seems to be cooking up conspiracy theories here as well. Clearly the four victims were up to no good with those trucks of food.

123dsa is the only person on this thread that seemed to think that this was worse of a crime because the victims were civilians. I think it would be just as horrible if the victims were enlisted men and women. I don't see any need to cloud the issue by trying to re-define "civilian."

Would you care if the US shot an Iraqi, burned his corpse, and then dragged it behind a car? For some reason, I think you would be outraged.

Please feel free to back this up with some credible reports of the US mutilating the corpses of Iraqis.

Now who is putting words into other peoples' mouths? I think that the most advanced military in the world can deal with this in a way other than carpet-bombing the town. :hmm:

Christ, everything has to be so difficult with these people doesn't it?

I'd have liked to see a few cruise missles pumped into that crowd myself.

Brilliant, four American mercenaries are killed in a horrible way, so lets kill a whole town full of innocent civilians because there's some of the murderers in the town who will die with them...

Now, do you see, why the Iraqi people do not want you there?

why don't you look at seretogis' thread above sf

are just trying to pick a fight here your ajure st restating the same thing that everyone else is so stop it

i personally think your crazy i think you have gone so far left that the only way to relate your positions to the right is to find a person who is whole hardilly behind a strict monarchy i mean come the fun of the discusion is in the give and the take

we are not wanted there because they remeber the oppresive days of british rule for the most part not because we are in this case attacking radicals that are violating there own religios beliefs

I said
I came into this thread concerned that some were taking this event too extreme. I haven't justified shit. I fully believe those who killed these men need to be captured and prosecuted if possible, killed if necessary.
I take offense to those who automatically want to raze this city to the ground, including the Marine commander who will be in charge of such an action.
We may end up hurt/kill a lot of people who don't deserve it.

I am not pushing conspiracy theories. We don't know what happened. All we know is american mercenaires died. The official story that they died protecting a food convoy doesn't jive with common sense.

Why are we paying so much attention to these 4 men? Why do their deaths deserve a leveling of an entire city? They came to Iraq for money, or soldiers, many of whom were ordered to come from their national guard duties, are dying every day. We lost over 51 actual soldiers this month. Where is the holy retribution for them?

I also think it's funny how our government can pay 1000 dollars a day or more (up to around 2500 for the really expensive ones) for a merc, but our soldiers who make around 8 or 9k a YEAR get their benefits slashed by our government, and WE are the ones being accused of not supporting our troops and being anti-american.

The American and British soldiers are not wanted there because they keep killing Iraqi people, stealing Iraq's natural oil reserves, and they have removed the Iraqi political structure and replaced it with colonial rule.

It isnt just radicals or Al Qieda trying to drive America out of Iraq as you seem to want to believe, the Iraqi people all hate America now, far more than they ever used to even when Hussain was there.

Look at the reaction on this board to the murder of the American mercenaries... people here say and I can only assume that they honestly want, for a town to be massacred by missile or troops because 4 American's died horribly - they want to bomb these women, children, elderly people (and men, and some radicals, and some black marketers, and some crooks, and some killers) and destroy them all because of the death of just 4 American's.

This is not just the voice of isolated people, this is the voice of a whole part of America, and I have to tell you that many of the troops there would also like to see this town destroyed by a cruise missile, and all the women and children and men their destroyed.

Now, you asked me not to repeat myself but I feel I must, do you understand why they do not want you there?

Superbelt,
You do raise a good point, and erasing Fallujah would be absolutely grossly disproportionate if this is the only problem that American troops or contractors had had with Fallujah since the "end of major hostilities". It just seems to me that this is merely the most despicable of a constant flow of objectionable events stemming from that town. I realize it is hardly scientific, but it seems that every fifth or sixth killing of an American occurrs in or around there. With that as the context, I'm not sure that destroying the town would still be a disproportionate response. I am not - cannot - say it is the right thing to do, but it sure feels right.

Think about what you just said. That you know in your head its wrong, but in your heart it feels right to massacre a town and kill every civilian there.

Why, why, do we have this lack of understanding of why the Iraqi people do not want the American's, or the British, there?

How many more Iraqi's, what ratio would you guess at, how many more Iraqi's have been killed by the UK/US forces than American's and Britains killed in Iraq? Do you really think the lives of Western people are worth more, that it is a greater crime to take them? I just cannot understand.

Like I said, I dont take any pleasure in watching these mercenaries killed but they should not have been there. The message is clear... America has achieved its objectives, Saddam has gone, the WMD's were never there, so get out, get out of Iraq and get out now.

Oh, unless the reason Bush and Blair are there never was to topple Hussain and look for WMD... if the reason was oil... I guess THAT would make sense while we are still there.

And if Israel were located exactly where Japan is currently, it would be North Korea at war, not Iraq.

It's all about demographics I'd say.

I couldn't agree more. Nobody should try to justify or rationalize it. Inhuman only begins to describe it.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...0.html?cnn=yes
This is still not meant to diminish the deaths of these men, but I just think it is important to repeat, that there may have been extenuating circumstances. And is reason for pause before you level a city.

Alternatively, this could be the work of a specific terrorist entity, not people who actually live in Falluja, who want to see america use it's "overwhelming force" so that they have some extreme vid-bytes to gain new recruits and work the muslim world into a vengeful lather after seeing how we treat that town.
And I do think things can go quickly down-hill for us in Iraq if we don't engage this Falluja situation tactfully. Overwhelming Force seems to be lacking in in that tact.

It's a pretty good tactic. Sacrifice some of their "bretheren" to force martyr status on them. Then reap the benefits of average Iraqi support.

just more of my .02

Ladies and Gentlemen, Let us try and stick to the topic of the thread and stop these stupid fights amongst one another. This thread is about the deaths of 4 Americans in Fallujah, lets discuss that.

"War is Hell"

Yes it is unfortunate that people die in warfare, but it is also reality.
Yes it was an immoral way to treat the bodies of the dead, but it is warfare.
Yes we all have the right to be upset, and feel anger towards the perpetrators of such a henious act.
Yes they have the right to be upset, and feel anger towards the perpetrators of what they percieve as a henious act(occupation of homeland).

No, this war is not over, and there has been no "end to major hostilities", as proclaimed by the administration.

No, getting pissed and leveling a city of mostly innocent people will not prevent this from happening again.

No, Security forces in Iraq are not immune to attack, and are well aware of this, they are not civilians in any way as far as the Iraqis are concerned.

No, most Iraqis do not support the mutilation of corpses, but are likely getting less tolerant of a brutal occupation.

In short, this is a war. People will die. It will never be pretty, and anyone who didn't see this sort of thing coming probably has a limited understanding of the realities in Iraq.

We all have a limited understanding of the realities in Iraq.

Hi!

This certainly has stirred up some emotions, hasn't it?

Lets look at some facts:

1. Iraqis, on the whole, are not happy about having their country invaded and taken in 3 weeks, regardless of the reasons.

2. Americans, and their coalition allies, are going to be targets as long as we are there in an occupying role.

3. While killing invaders may be justified, what the crowd did to those 4 people can never be justified, be it religiously, moraly, philosophicaly, or otherwise. It was a disgrace, plain and simple.

4. The action does not justify the destruction of the whole town, nor was that ever threatened by any coalition official. It is cause for a re-evaluation of our tactics and methods, especially in the Sunni Triangle area. The Marines made a big deal about crapping on the Armys "heavy handed tactics" in Fallujah. My guess is that they are now having second thoughts.

5. Pulling out of Iraq cold turkey right now would have disasterous results for Iraq, the region, and the US. The last thing anybody needs is another radical muslim state up in arms against the west.

debaser,

i agree with most of what you said, though i'm not sure all the things listed were facts and not your own analysis.

i especially take exception to the first point.

ABC News/Oxford Research just conducted a scientific poll of Iraqis. The results are very interesting. I think everyone who is interested in these events should take a look at it.

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world...ll_040314.html

Overall, 56% of Iraqis feel they are better off now than before the war. 19% feel they are worse, the balance feel they are about the same.

I realize they didn't ask directly ask if they are happy about the invasion, but I feel there is enough supporting evidence provided by this poll to make a convincing argument contrary to your assumption.

I have serious doubts about any polling being done unless the polling company can address my concerns that most people who are angry at america, are against our occupation or are actively working against it would shy away from talking to the pollsters or give false answers (fearing the polling is a trap).
ABC doesn't seem to address that issue to me.

The numbers ABC gives are the best case scenario. The true numbers are definetly lower. The only question is by how much.

The last thing I would want to see is a cruise missle wasted on these worthless excuses for a life.

Lets waste one of these on them!!!!


http://www.netoriginals.com/uss/imag...urces/bomb.jpg

Hell yeah! Let's BRING IT ON! Again. You sandies think it was bad when your kids got the most extreme cases of hydroencephalitis most people will ever see LAST time we decided to fuck with you? (thank you depleted uranium shells)
Wait till you see what happens after we give reconmike "the button"

_______
recon, that was disgusting of you. Go to the link. How could you joke about dropping a nuke on anyone again, unless under the most. dire. circumstances. Knowing this is in store for the unlucky survivors offspring?
The pictures are there, I won't put them directly on this page because I know they would get pulled by the mods, for how horrific they are, and I would probrably get a warning or banning for it.

How about a warning to everyone against trolling?

Locked.