The Terrorists Win
 

Moral of the story, kill people before an election, change the results, watch them run.

I'm sure this sends a message to the terrorists, and I don't think that message is a good one.

This is really pathetic, I can't tell you how pissed off I am about this. Also someone send that asshole the definition of 'unilateral'.

Disappointing response from Spain.

Moral is:
dont lie to your people
dont go to war if 90% of you people dont want to

All in all a good election in spain, sadly it is overshadowed by the bombings.

Who are the terrorists in this instance?

If you have to ask, you must be one of them!

THE RESULTS WERE CHANGED DUE TO THE BOMBINGS.

Thats the point, the bombs are why these assholes are now in power.

al-queda (sp) seems to be the main suspect, but the spainish authorities arn't ruling out ETA.

and c'mon, calling spain losers and cowards is pathetic. Spain has suffered a lot of terrorists acts by ETA, more than the americans have, so don't go bitching about how your holy wars have been screwed up, or how spain is a bunch of losers.
yes, it is a shame that terrorism can affect things in this way, but spain is calling for blood, and i think that long term, this may turn out to be a bad thing for terrorists.

Explain how going through the UN only will be bad for terrorists?

Since when has the UN done anything about terrorism?

The UN tried to prevent further budding Terrorism with its objection to the Iraq war. I dont think you know what terrorism reallyis and how it starts. When GWB called the UN irrelevant he took the UN out of the picture...sent our forces into Iraq and has probably prompted the creation of a few more terrorist groups.
I fear for my families lives, friends, every righteous person in the world and my own; yet I know that the actions of our administration are not "to the point" ie. capturing Bin Laden, finding WMD. I am sure there are more angry anti-US people around the world than there were pre 9-11.

a bit, but aznar made a bunch of errors before so the election is also a result of that.

He has done nothing so far so what does qualify him as "asshole"?

and would you please stop that namecalling?

Right out of the pages on Orwell's "1984", I wonder how smart one thinks they are when they make comments like this?
A person who makes this kind of comment would be the first on the line to get their bar codes painted on and to have their computer chips inserted.

exactly.
Bush is fighting terrorism with armies and guns, the american way if you will, which simply just doesn't work.
it's all very well blowing up people who support them, but the terrorists can just pootle off somewhere else and build more bombs.
america has managed to alienate most of the middle east and a bunch of other states with their recent war, and has fostered a lot of resentment.
you simply can't send in troops and hope for the best, you need to make friends with the people, show them your their friend, or at least not their enemy, not blow them up and try and scare them into not attacking you.

The UN is there for a reason, granted it may not be too good at it's job in some places, but if another country went behind it's back, i can probably say the US would be the first one to throw a tantrum.

Up next for the terrorists – England or Australia...

It’s a smart plan, attack countries with unpopular governments because of their support for America.

I doubt anything will ever happen in Spain again. The bad guys got what they wanted, no need to beat a dead horse.

england already has it's own terrorists, it's nothing particulary new here, i'd say that america is next up, just out of spite from the bad guys.

and bad stuff will keep happening in spain, they still have to deal with ETA...

Wow - i agree with Joe Lieberman...

{appearing on CNN's Late Edition,} Sen. Joe Lieberman, D-Conn., appearing on the same program, warned the Europeans to remember history.

"Anyone who thinks that if ... a nation's troops stay out of a particular military conflict that they'll be somehow protected from the fanatical Islamic terrorists, is just wrong," he said. "That's the same kind of logic that led Neville Chamberlain in Munich to try to pacify Hitler in the late '30s. And obviously that didn't work," he said.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2...on-cover_x.htm

Sorry. I thought the sarcasm would be obvious. I thought I was pretty smart for making it...I was wrong.

Hey, I guess Utswo set the tone and I missed it.
I am truly sorry to miss it.

pretty rich from an american i have to say.
also, he should read up on his history a bit better, and get a better reference, concessions to hitler followed by WW2 is a universe away from america's new holy war.

Change results? Bullshit. The election was going to go that way anyway. The country was polling 90% against the Iraq war and occupation. Anzar and his (un)Popular Party are the first casualties of a worldwide hate for Bush and his foreign policy.

The PSOE ran on a platform of getting out of the HUGELY unpopular Coalition of the willing and focusing on real terrorism threats rather than waste money on something as unnecessary to Spanish security as Iraq.

PSOE aren't pussies. It was they who got Spain into NATO and they who offered support to the US during Gulf War I.

I am sure though, that the vote swung their way more than it already was after the bombing. The bombing just very vividly demonstrated for them, on their 3/11, that their leaders were wasting their time and resources. And they wanted a change for a party that is promising real steps towards security.

How can you complain about the effects of terrorism on politics? Aren't you a bush supporter? As far as i can remember, bush was nothing more than a smart monkey to a lot of people before 9/11. He gained a lot of credibility for how he dealt with it. Terrorism is going to be a big issue in our election too. If this asshole stays in power, you can bet that bombs had something to do with it as well.

The pre-election polls where within a margin of error. They where that close.

In fact, it is believed that the election was won by the opposition because more people showed up to vote than in the past.

And the victorious opposition ended up with only a few % more seats (10%? 20%?) than the old party in power, in a minority government situation.

about 2.5 million extra people showed up to vote this time.

2000 - 18 million voters

2004 - 20.5 million voters

While I am dissapointed that Spain is going to pull its troops out, it is certainly their right. If their people are opposed to Spainish troops being in Iraq, then the duly elected officials should follow the will of the people.

I do tend to agree that the immediate pull-out in the wake of the terrorist attacks sends a poor message and only boosts the morale of the terrorists. I also agree that the attack had an effect on the election - OF COURSE IT DID!!!!! Any sort of attack on a country is going to have an effect. 9-11 will have an effect on this year's U.S. election, we just don't know which way it will tilt the scales.

Why does everyone suppose this was terrorists of a certain region/culture?

a- ETA are the main terrorist group in spain, fighting for an independant northern state, and are a prime suspect.
b- al-queda have suposidly claimed responsibility, but the claim is so far unverified.

Don't know, but they must both be high on the list. The UK has had lots of bombs planted by the IRA in the past (another terrorist organisation that America wasn't bothered about cracking down on), so it is the kind of thing we have experience with. I am not sure if Australia has every had a terroist attack in their country, and hopefully that will continue.

How exactly do the terrorists win here? Alot of people, including Lieberman, are confusing the war on terror with the war in Iraq. Spain and the rest of the world are just going to be more determined than ever to actually go after the terrorists and destroy them. What they are not going to do is start unnecessary wars that do nothing to solve the problem at hand and, if anything, make it worse.
Aznar made the decision to go to war in Iraq even though the vast majority of his people were against it and there was no good reason to go other than to gain favor from the US. At the time, maybe he figured we'd find WMD, the war would be declared a success, and his people would forget about it and return to their regularly scheduled program. Unfortunately, things didn't work out like that.
Although it hasn't been proven that Al Qaeda is responsible, it is likely that if Aznar had not decided to go to war in Iraq, this tragedy would not have occurred. The Spanish people did the smart thing by voting out Aznar's party. Hopefully, my fellow Americans will do the same to Bush in November.

unfortunatly, this type of terrorism stems from religious fanaticism, which is far from logical.

I really can't understand how people somehow think this isn't a victory for the terrorists.

I am so baffled I can't even debate it right now.

This isn't the terrorists victory. The PSOE was not endorsed by the "Terrorists" The PSOE is just as much against the terrorists as the (un)PP. The only difference is the PSOE will be directing all their attention to fighting domestic terrorism rather than spread themselves thin uselessly.
That kinda means to me that the terrorists lost their gamble.

It isn't a given that the opposition party would win the elections with a terrorist attack. And I sincerely don't think that was the intent either. They just wanted to sow chaos. After a terrorist attack people vote for the people they think will protect them from more attacks. People get angry and want revenge. After an attack you vote for a candidate of strength.
Even after seeing the result I don't know which way the election would be swayed if we had a terrorist attack in the States two days before the election. I am actually leaning towards a landslide victory for the Republicans if that would happen.
The general meme being that Republicans are stronger on defense (Despite evidence to the contrary)

Is this a victory for the Terrorists because you think the PSOE are pussies who will capitulate to the terrorists? What evidence do you have of that? Where is their long standing record of pacifism and pussie-ness? PSOE brought Spain into NATO and were the party that offered military assistance in Iraq in the early 90's.

Or maybe this is a victory for the terrorists because the result is a progressive party victory and YOU don't like the outcome.
Because your part has been saying the world is round, and goddamn it, why are all those Spaniards are now running around saying it is some kind of ovoid.

Finally I would like to say how disgusting it is to say that a vote for _____ party is a vote for the terrorists.
That is the basest, shittiest argument one can make and really paints you as an ideological zealot.

Liberals are terrorists.
Vote for the democrats and the terrorists win.
Liberals are destroying the morality of america.
The terrorist attack is a result of our moral depravity, the liberalism, the gays.. etc /Pat Robertson
Liberals pushing Gay Marriage is forcing me to have unprotected sex with my daughter.
I'm a drunk because Liberals stole my job.

Etc. Stop whining.

I agree with you, but it just isn't worth the time anymore.

I think that Spain getting hit by terrorists in reponse for their role in ousting Saddam makes it harder to argue that the war in Iraq has absolutely nothing to do with combating terrorism.

Spain's immediate withdrawal from Iraq will have dangerous consequences for anyone who dares to stand up to terrorists and ruthless dictators. They have given hope to those who use the slaughter of civilians as an instrument to change policy. no matter your position on the Iraq war, i would think it would be tough to argue that this is a good decision for the international community as a whole.

The PSOE is not going to just yank their soldiers out.
It will not be an immediate withdrawl

They are going to leave them there through June, which is all the PP was guaranteeing them for.

The only difference is that PSOE will not extend their servicemens deployment any farther than that (As the PP would have) and are telling us:
"You better have your provisional gov't in place by June like you already said you would, cause we're gone."

You guys actually think that terrorist have been empowered by this? The people never wanted to go to Iraq..get that through your thick skulls.
This is not name calling here but understand the definition of the term "Lemming". Then come back.

A brief aside: Lemmings don't actually do that blindly-running-off-of-cliffs thing. Maybe "Sheep" would be a better choice.

It can still be argued that iraq had nothing to do with the war on terrorism. Nowadays it does seem like terrorists have iraq on thier minds. Do you think that would be the case if the coalition of the willing hadn't invaded?

Kind've lends credence to the whole "the war in iraq is going to contribute to more terrorism" argument. At this point i think it may be hard to argue that we are any safer than we were pre-invasion, especially if you're a spaniard.

I'm struggling to understand why Eta want the Spanish army to pull out of Iraq?

If anything Iraq just became a lightning rod for Terrorists to rally around. It worked them into a frenzy and made their task of attracting new recruits much easier.

Because they relish engaging an enemy that outclasses them in every way?

Not in support of heartless killers (be them terrorist or military mercenaries).
What would be your response and emotion be if a group of cops accused you of having massive drug piles with intent to distribute in your home and when they didnt find them they invade your house turning everything upside down, breaking most of your possessions and even killing your pets (innocent bystanders).
What and how would you feel?

A conservative friend of mine explained it thusly: The war in Iraq was about preventing muslim extremists from getting WMD. Saddam wasn't crazy enough to attack us with the WMD he was manufacturing, but he would have sold them to extremist groups to use against us in terror attacks. He also admitted that the CIA had some intelligence failures, but "let's not make a big deal of it."

Personally, I'm sold on that spin. :rolleyes:

This is a good example of how the administration should explain things rather than fear-mongering.
If GWB came out and said that we sold Saddam the weapons and now we believe he intends on selling them to terrorists...the country would most likely be behind him.

No doubt terrorists "won" in Spain.

This is a new era for terrorism.

Past terrorist attacks have been unsuccessful in bending the targets to their will. Previous attacks were either ignored or they fortified the victims against the terrorists. To my knowledge this is the first modern day case of a terrorist attack successfully forcing the change they want from the victim country/group.

This is a historically significant event that gives new life to terrorism.

No, this is a vistory for peace, this is for a victory for democracy, and a lesson to all world leaders that you cannot take your country into a war that the people do not want to fight.

And I really so no reason to doubt that this was Eta as of yet, it bears all the hallmarks of an Eta attack.

i agree with that post, except the victory bit, that has yet to be seen.

A victory for peace? Yeah I'm sure the terrorists will now go back to their peaceful lives and never disturb anyone ever again.

It was at least a victory for democracy. It is the Spaniards country and they can vote how they want, regardless of any driving factors. Noone held a gun to their head as they went to the voting booths.
So, you don't have to like the outcome, you aren't Spanish. They have made a lifestyle choice that changes the direction they have previously been in. Good for them.

This also sort of mirrors the situation where bush, after 9/11, pulled out all the US troops in Saudi Arabia. Did you accuse george w bush of pandering to terrorists when he did that?

I hold no bad feelings about the Spanish election result. They are perfectly within their rights to choose their leader. I am also perfectly within my rights to point out that their choice is the first example that I know of where an act of terrorism achieved its results.

As far as Bush pulling troops out of Saudi Arabia, the troops in Saudi Arabia were there to enforce the no fly zone in Iraq. There's not much point to them being there when there's no longer a no fly zone to enforce. Further, the pullout was not in direct response to a bombing and was certainly not a capitulation to terrorists.

I don't get it, we still have troops in Saudi Arabia.

How can you be certain that the election didnt go: 1. as planned, 2. as rigged, or 3. As the US & allies wanted it to go; after this bombing.

Basically you are saying that the Spainish election results are a dissapointment...who are you, we or GWB to feel this way?

The polls certainly seemed to indicate that the ruling party would retain power. Then the bomb went off. Of course we can't know for sure that the original polls were right, but there certainly seems to be more evidence that this analysis is true than the belief that the election was not altered because of the bombing.

Unless the new government is in ca-hoots with the terrorists there is no way one can link this bombing to being a terrrorist victory.

Furthermore..the term terrorists has been generalized.
These could have been terrorists who wanted Spainiards to get out & vote..and they scared them into it..who knows.

Spain w/drawing fro Iraq is not a victory.

no, i think this bombing just brought some thoughts about the current gov back. they repeated a lot of errors they already made before (lying to their own people, and i brought back the iraq war), so the attacks just refreshed some memorys.

depends of what you think terrorism wants. Do you really believe that alkaida believed the WTC attack would bring the US down?
Terrorsim has always won so far. the goal of terror is fear, the goal is to attention for their own cause. and the WTC attack brought them a lot of attention. And for fear...well ask yourself.

Ok.. so... terrorists won...


what are you gonna DO about it?

i figured get drunk and blow a few countries up...again.

You want my real answer?

Continue to prepare for if/when TSHTF in the US, so at least I and my family have a reasonable chance to survive.

How I'll react when those who say, "we deserved this" show up at my door asking for help, I haven't decided yet.

Wow, just wow. This was not primarily ETA, at least, they didn't carry out the attacks. They might have passed some info on to al Qaeda, but they certainly weren't major players in this attack. ETA doesn't go for quantity, they go for quality, they almost always go for high government officials. If they do have bombs, they call before they go off to announce that they want some demands, ETA always wants some sort of concession, sort of what almost always drove the Baader-Meinhof Gang, we do this, we let the hostages go, you give us stuff. No, this definitely has all the hallmarks of al Qaeda, mass bombings killing a great deal of people and all within a few minutes of each other. stevie, I want to know where you got that 90% of the American people were against going into Iraq, if I remember correctly, the highest percentage was around 45-50% with most polls putting it around 35-40% and some undecideds/don't cares. Yes, the terrorists have had a small victory, but as long as we continue to stand firm, they will not win this war, I myself will die before I see my country in fear of anybody who dares to kill my fellow citizens.

Wow, quite the interesting discussion.

No offense, but I see it quite simply....

The Spanish decided that it wasn't fucking worth it.

That is, Iraq, might as well be on the moon as far as your average Spaniard goes. All that being part of the coalition of the coerced got Spain was a lot of innocent people blown up.

The Spanish looked at it quite objectively

1. Iraq was NEVER a threat to Spain. Hell, Iraq wasn't even a threat to the USA.

2. Being part of the American led coalition has alienated Spain from the rest of Europe.

3. Spain is moving towards becoming part of the European Union which is up and coming. They will gain more by being in the same room with Germany, France, and Russia then they will with the USA.

4.Fighting in Iraq has gained Spain nothing, only innocent lives killed.

5. Is Iraq and American oil interests worth it?

6. Spainiards were overwhelmingly opposed to a war in the first place.


The whole damn thing (Iraq) is spirally down into the ground. The US will be left to sort out the mess itself shortly. Both Britain and Australia are sure to see changes in their government as a result of Iraq. Even George Bush might taste defeat if he can't contain this better.

It's turning into a quagmire.

Interesting to note, that public sentiment never seems to support a pre-emptive war after all.

i agree with you there JTT.
this 'war' has probably done more to destabalise international relations that any terrorist action could have ever done.

The terrorists won on 9-11. They won because they have many of us Americans living in fear. They won because as a result the Primate in Chief signed the Patriot Act. Our freedom of speech and privacy rights are what I think made us great. You could say what you want and not have to worry about big brother looking over you shoulder. Sadly, this isn't the case any more.

They won because they got us to change the way we live our lives.

I second Kutulu 100%. To say the 9/11 terrorists have failed is ridiculous- 3,000 folks died, the markets failed, companies went bankrupt, we've got the Patriot Act and impending internet privacy regulations, and you can't jump a plane from Fresno to Orange County without being considered a threat to mankind.

Sadly, the terrorists won- we have more enemies than ever, there is no TRUE plurality in our country, and the administration in power doesn't see fit to level with us on the issues we're speaking of. New World Order indeed....

Don't give into the fear.. life goes on.

considering your location, lebell, you have hardly anything to worry about

That is, of course, part of the strategy.

But it would be foolish to think that terrorists will stick to major urban areas.

Over New Years, it was revealed that they were targeting some small middle American town (I forget in which state) for just that reason.

^Rappahanock Virginia, I remember the stink the local NOVA news made about it. Honestly though, just be aware and report suspicious activities to the local authorities, they can handle it better than you can. Unless of course, you're sixate and a big motherfucker who could probably look at a terrorist and make him cry. *lightbulb* That's it!!!! We send sixate wherever we need to and have him deal with it, that would solve all of our problems. I don't know why we didn't think of this before...

yeah, but they were revealed.. all plans down the drain

Umm, yes.

One plan was uncovered.

You believe they have given up?

90% of spanish, not americans.

Even you dont know who "THEY" are.
You only know what the government influenced media tells you.

Anyone else find it interesting that a bomb that kills a lot of people, coupled with a few other bombs that go off near or at the same time, is all that is needed for people here to say it reeks of Al-Qaeda? I think Al-Qaeda caused that fender bender. I think Al-Qaeda made my bread go stale. Sour milk? Probably Al-Qaeda.

Anyone else curious as to whether or not Al-Qaeda is even half the all-evil, all-encompassing, world wide organization we make it out to be?

They sure are a good group of guys to pull out everytime you need to scare the shit out of people, no doubt.


SLM3

indeed, they are conveniently shadowy in a wag the dog type of conspiracy thought.

you only stand to gain politically from terrorism if you claim it as your own. i remember back in the seventies when dozens of groups would rush forward to claim responsibility for terrorist attacks, and we had to sort out who was really guilty. not so much the case anymore, huh?

Those that support Bush did indeed lose the spanish election. If you assume the world is divided between "Those that Support Bush" and "The Terrorists", then the terrorists won. =p

As an aside, does anyone have a primary source for those pre-election polls? Everyone makes vague references to them, but I haven't seen one single number, or source.

I've heard that the ruling party was going to win handily, and I've heard that the ruling party and the victorious opposition where within a the margin of victory of each other, and I've heard that the number of people who showed up to vote was way higher than usual: basically those leaning towards the opposition where more likely to show up than in the past....

But, I haven't seen a single hard number or source or citation.

Now THAT I'll believe. Sorry, I think I read your post too fast.