Ustwo

Moral of the story, kill people before an election, change the results, watch them run.

I'm sure this sends a message to the terrorists, and I don't think that message is a good one.

This is really pathetic, I can't tell you how pissed off I am about this. Also someone send that asshole the definition of 'unilateral'.

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Peetster

Disappointing response from Spain.

Pacifier

Moral is:
dont lie to your people
dont go to war if 90% of you people dont want to

All in all a good election in spain, sadly it is overshadowed by the bombings.

__________________
"It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I also cannot imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere. Science has been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death
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Bookman

Who are the terrorists in this instance?

Kadath

If you have to ask, you must be one of them!

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it's quiet in here

Ustwo

THE RESULTS WERE CHANGED DUE TO THE BOMBINGS.

Thats the point, the bombs are why these assholes are now in power.

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

stevie667

al-queda (sp) seems to be the main suspect, but the spainish authorities arn't ruling out ETA.

and c'mon, calling spain losers and cowards is pathetic. Spain has suffered a lot of terrorists acts by ETA, more than the americans have, so don't go bitching about how your holy wars have been screwed up, or how spain is a bunch of losers.
yes, it is a shame that terrorism can affect things in this way, but spain is calling for blood, and i think that long term, this may turn out to be a bad thing for terrorists.

Ustwo

Explain how going through the UN only will be bad for terrorists?

Since when has the UN done anything about terrorism?

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Bookman

The UN tried to prevent further budding Terrorism with its objection to the Iraq war. I dont think you know what terrorism reallyis and how it starts. When GWB called the UN irrelevant he took the UN out of the picture...sent our forces into Iraq and has probably prompted the creation of a few more terrorist groups.
I fear for my families lives, friends, every righteous person in the world and my own; yet I know that the actions of our administration are not "to the point" ie. capturing Bin Laden, finding WMD. I am sure there are more angry anti-US people around the world than there were pre 9-11.

Pacifier

a bit, but aznar made a bunch of errors before so the election is also a result of that.

He has done nothing so far so what does qualify him as "asshole"?

and would you please stop that namecalling?

__________________
"It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I also cannot imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere. Science has been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death
— Albert Einstein

Bookman

Right out of the pages on Orwell's "1984", I wonder how smart one thinks they are when they make comments like this?
A person who makes this kind of comment would be the first on the line to get their bar codes painted on and to have their computer chips inserted.

stevie667

exactly.
Bush is fighting terrorism with armies and guns, the american way if you will, which simply just doesn't work.
it's all very well blowing up people who support them, but the terrorists can just pootle off somewhere else and build more bombs.
america has managed to alienate most of the middle east and a bunch of other states with their recent war, and has fostered a lot of resentment.
you simply can't send in troops and hope for the best, you need to make friends with the people, show them your their friend, or at least not their enemy, not blow them up and try and scare them into not attacking you.

The UN is there for a reason, granted it may not be too good at it's job in some places, but if another country went behind it's back, i can probably say the US would be the first one to throw a tantrum.

Mr. Mojo

Up next for the terrorists – England or Australia...

It’s a smart plan, attack countries with unpopular governments because of their support for America.

I doubt anything will ever happen in Spain again. The bad guys got what they wanted, no need to beat a dead horse.

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When I jerk off I feel good for about twenty seconds and then WHAM it's right back into suicidal depression

stevie667

england already has it's own terrorists, it's nothing particulary new here, i'd say that america is next up, just out of spite from the bad guys.

and bad stuff will keep happening in spain, they still have to deal with ETA...

Mr. Mojo

Wow - i agree with Joe Lieberman...

{appearing on CNN's Late Edition,} Sen. Joe Lieberman, D-Conn., appearing on the same program, warned the Europeans to remember history.

"Anyone who thinks that if ... a nation's troops stay out of a particular military conflict that they'll be somehow protected from the fanatical Islamic terrorists, is just wrong," he said. "That's the same kind of logic that led Neville Chamberlain in Munich to try to pacify Hitler in the late '30s. And obviously that didn't work," he said.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2...on-cover_x.htm

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When I jerk off I feel good for about twenty seconds and then WHAM it's right back into suicidal depression

Kadath

Sorry. I thought the sarcasm would be obvious. I thought I was pretty smart for making it...I was wrong.

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it's quiet in here

Bookman

Hey, I guess Utswo set the tone and I missed it.
I am truly sorry to miss it.

stevie667

pretty rich from an american i have to say.
also, he should read up on his history a bit better, and get a better reference, concessions to hitler followed by WW2 is a universe away from america's new holy war.

Superbelt

Change results? Bullshit. The election was going to go that way anyway. The country was polling 90% against the Iraq war and occupation. Anzar and his (un)Popular Party are the first casualties of a worldwide hate for Bush and his foreign policy.

The PSOE ran on a platform of getting out of the HUGELY unpopular Coalition of the willing and focusing on real terrorism threats rather than waste money on something as unnecessary to Spanish security as Iraq.

PSOE aren't pussies. It was they who got Spain into NATO and they who offered support to the US during Gulf War I.

I am sure though, that the vote swung their way more than it already was after the bombing. The bombing just very vividly demonstrated for them, on their 3/11, that their leaders were wasting their time and resources. And they wanted a change for a party that is promising real steps towards security.

filtherton

How can you complain about the effects of terrorism on politics? Aren't you a bush supporter? As far as i can remember, bush was nothing more than a smart monkey to a lot of people before 9/11. He gained a lot of credibility for how he dealt with it. Terrorism is going to be a big issue in our election too. If this asshole stays in power, you can bet that bombs had something to do with it as well.

Yakk

The pre-election polls where within a margin of error. They where that close.

In fact, it is believed that the election was won by the opposition because more people showed up to vote than in the past.

And the victorious opposition ended up with only a few % more seats (10%? 20%?) than the old party in power, in a minority government situation.

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Superbelt

about 2.5 million extra people showed up to vote this time.

2000 - 18 million voters

2004 - 20.5 million voters

mml

While I am dissapointed that Spain is going to pull its troops out, it is certainly their right. If their people are opposed to Spainish troops being in Iraq, then the duly elected officials should follow the will of the people.

I do tend to agree that the immediate pull-out in the wake of the terrorist attacks sends a poor message and only boosts the morale of the terrorists. I also agree that the attack had an effect on the election - OF COURSE IT DID!!!!! Any sort of attack on a country is going to have an effect. 9-11 will have an effect on this year's U.S. election, we just don't know which way it will tilt the scales.

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Bookman

Why does everyone suppose this was terrorists of a certain region/culture?

stevie667

a- ETA are the main terrorist group in spain, fighting for an independant northern state, and are a prime suspect.
b- al-queda have suposidly claimed responsibility, but the claim is so far unverified.

Arc101

Don't know, but they must both be high on the list. The UK has had lots of bombs planted by the IRA in the past (another terrorist organisation that America wasn't bothered about cracking down on), so it is the kind of thing we have experience with. I am not sure if Australia has every had a terroist attack in their country, and hopefully that will continue.

maximusveritas

How exactly do the terrorists win here? Alot of people, including Lieberman, are confusing the war on terror with the war in Iraq. Spain and the rest of the world are just going to be more determined than ever to actually go after the terrorists and destroy them. What they are not going to do is start unnecessary wars that do nothing to solve the problem at hand and, if anything, make it worse.
Aznar made the decision to go to war in Iraq even though the vast majority of his people were against it and there was no good reason to go other than to gain favor from the US. At the time, maybe he figured we'd find WMD, the war would be declared a success, and his people would forget about it and return to their regularly scheduled program. Unfortunately, things didn't work out like that.
Although it hasn't been proven that Al Qaeda is responsible, it is likely that if Aznar had not decided to go to war in Iraq, this tragedy would not have occurred. The Spanish people did the smart thing by voting out Aznar's party. Hopefully, my fellow Americans will do the same to Bush in November.

stevie667

unfortunatly, this type of terrorism stems from religious fanaticism, which is far from logical.

Ustwo

I really can't understand how people somehow think this isn't a victory for the terrorists.

I am so baffled I can't even debate it right now.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Superbelt

This isn't the terrorists victory. The PSOE was not endorsed by the "Terrorists" The PSOE is just as much against the terrorists as the (un)PP. The only difference is the PSOE will be directing all their attention to fighting domestic terrorism rather than spread themselves thin uselessly.
That kinda means to me that the terrorists lost their gamble.

It isn't a given that the opposition party would win the elections with a terrorist attack. And I sincerely don't think that was the intent either. They just wanted to sow chaos. After a terrorist attack people vote for the people they think will protect them from more attacks. People get angry and want revenge. After an attack you vote for a candidate of strength.
Even after seeing the result I don't know which way the election would be swayed if we had a terrorist attack in the States two days before the election. I am actually leaning towards a landslide victory for the Republicans if that would happen.
The general meme being that Republicans are stronger on defense (Despite evidence to the contrary)

Is this a victory for the Terrorists because you think the PSOE are pussies who will capitulate to the terrorists? What evidence do you have of that? Where is their long standing record of pacifism and pussie-ness? PSOE brought Spain into NATO and were the party that offered military assistance in Iraq in the early 90's.

Or maybe this is a victory for the terrorists because the result is a progressive party victory and YOU don't like the outcome.
Because your part has been saying the world is round, and goddamn it, why are all those Spaniards are now running around saying it is some kind of ovoid.

Finally I would like to say how disgusting it is to say that a vote for _____ party is a vote for the terrorists.
That is the basest, shittiest argument one can make and really paints you as an ideological zealot.

Liberals are terrorists.
Vote for the democrats and the terrorists win.
Liberals are destroying the morality of america.
The terrorist attack is a result of our moral depravity, the liberalism, the gays.. etc /Pat Robertson
Liberals pushing Gay Marriage is forcing me to have unprotected sex with my daughter.
I'm a drunk because Liberals stole my job.

Etc. Stop whining.

Lebell

I agree with you, but it just isn't worth the time anymore.

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irateplatypus

I think that Spain getting hit by terrorists in reponse for their role in ousting Saddam makes it harder to argue that the war in Iraq has absolutely nothing to do with combating terrorism.

Spain's immediate withdrawal from Iraq will have dangerous consequences for anyone who dares to stand up to terrorists and ruthless dictators. They have given hope to those who use the slaughter of civilians as an instrument to change policy. no matter your position on the Iraq war, i would think it would be tough to argue that this is a good decision for the international community as a whole.

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If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.

~ Winston Churchill

Superbelt

The PSOE is not going to just yank their soldiers out.
It will not be an immediate withdrawl

They are going to leave them there through June, which is all the PP was guaranteeing them for.

The only difference is that PSOE will not extend their servicemens deployment any farther than that (As the PP would have) and are telling us:
"You better have your provisional gov't in place by June like you already said you would, cause we're gone."

Bookman

You guys actually think that terrorist have been empowered by this? The people never wanted to go to Iraq..get that through your thick skulls.
This is not name calling here but understand the definition of the term "Lemming". Then come back.

Kadath

A brief aside: Lemmings don't actually do that blindly-running-off-of-cliffs thing. Maybe "Sheep" would be a better choice.

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it's quiet in here

filtherton

It can still be argued that iraq had nothing to do with the war on terrorism. Nowadays it does seem like terrorists have iraq on thier minds. Do you think that would be the case if the coalition of the willing hadn't invaded?

Kind've lends credence to the whole "the war in iraq is going to contribute to more terrorism" argument. At this point i think it may be hard to argue that we are any safer than we were pre-invasion, especially if you're a spaniard.

Strange Famous

I'm struggling to understand why Eta want the Spanish army to pull out of Iraq?

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for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

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Superbelt

If anything Iraq just became a lightning rod for Terrorists to rally around. It worked them into a frenzy and made their task of attracting new recruits much easier.

Superbelt

Because they relish engaging an enemy that outclasses them in every way?

Bookman

Not in support of heartless killers (be them terrorist or military mercenaries).
What would be your response and emotion be if a group of cops accused you of having massive drug piles with intent to distribute in your home and when they didnt find them they invade your house turning everything upside down, breaking most of your possessions and even killing your pets (innocent bystanders).
What and how would you feel?