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Old 07-18-2003, 04:30 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Rant on Immigration

Obviously not my words, but i find that i agree with most of this.

What do the rest of you think?


This says it all!
Note: As of yesterday newspaper here in the State of Florida this issue had not been decided but please read on!


After hearing that the state of Florida changed its opinion and let a Muslim woman have her picture on her driver's license with her face covered this is an editorial written by an American citizen, published in a Tampa newspaper. He did quite a job; didn't he? Read on, please!

IMMIGRANTS, NOT AMERICANS, MUST ADAPT. I am tired of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some individual or their culture. Since the terrorist attacks on Sept. 11, we have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Americans. However, the dust from the attacks had barely settled when the "politically correct" crowd began complaining about the possibility that our patriotism was offending others.

I am not against immigration, nor do I hold a grudge against anyone who is seeking a better life by coming to America. Our population is almost entirely made up of descendants of immigrants. However, there are a few things that those who have recently come to our country, and apparently some born here, need to understand. This idea of America being a multicultural community has served only to dilute our sovereignty and our national identity. As Americans, we have our own culture, our own society, our own language and our own lifestyle. This culture has been developed over centuries of struggles, trials, and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom.

We speak ENGLISH, not Spanish, Portuguese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society, learn the language!

"In God We Trust" is our national motto. This is not some Christian, right wing, political slogan. We adopted this motto because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented. It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools. If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, because God is part of our culture.

If Stars and Stripes offend you, or you don't like Uncle Sam, then you should seriously consider a move to another part of this planet. We are happy with our culture and have no desire to change, and we really don't care how you did things where you came from. This is OUR COUNTRY, our land, and our lifestyle. Our First Amendment gives every! citizen the right to express his opinion and we will allow you every opportunity to do so. But once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about our flag, our pledge, our national motto, or our way of life, I highly encourage you take advantage of one other great American freedom, THE RIGHT TO LEAVE.
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Old 07-18-2003, 06:49 AM   #2 (permalink)
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America is a nation of immigrants. As illustrated fairly well by this Washington Post article (LINK), the end result of the recent wave of immigration is uncertain. I would hope that eventually we will be able to "absorb" the new immigrants as Americans within a generation or two, but there are concerns that "the nation will continue to fracture into many separate, disconnected communities with no shared sense of commonality or purpose."

If politicians continue to cater to racial and ethnic groups specifically for their votes, instead of the American in general, it will only hurt the attempt of the US to be a melting pot.
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Old 07-18-2003, 07:53 AM   #3 (permalink)
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It is very funny, I've always thought of America as the melting pot and the part of our issue here in Canada with our identity stems from the fact that we are a mosaic (i.e. a nation made up of other cultures rather than a nation that imposes a culture upon an immigrant). I say it is funny because I didn't realize that this was much of an issue in the US.

That said, immigrants are the life blood of both of our nations. We have been experiencing declining birth rates and immigrants represent a process of stemming that tide. However, the benefit of the immigrant to our societies is really to be found in the second or third generations.

The children of immigrants are often hard-working, fluently English-speaking, money spending, county loving, tax paying citizens.

While I can sense the frustration of having to deal with immigrants that don't fit in, I see it as a small price to pay for the future.

As for the opinion expressed on Christianity... can't agree less. Following the Christian faith may have been important to the founders of the USA (and Canada) but it is clear that church and state have been seperated within our constitutions... keep religion out of it.

Finally the love of "uncle sam" and the "stars and stripes"... I've always seen patriotism as a double edged sword. One one hand it is a unifying principle (one of the aspects of the melting pot) on the other it can lead to a form of Nationalism that is quite odious.

With specific regards to the driver's license... I don't know enough about the circumstances to be able to judge one way or the other...
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Old 07-18-2003, 08:15 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Charlatan

Finally the love of "uncle sam" and the "stars and stripes"... I've always seen patriotism as a double edged sword. One one hand it is a unifying principle (one of the aspects of the melting pot) on the other it can lead to a form of Nationalism that is quite odious.


That's exactly what is happening here. The flag-waving is more nationalism than patriotism. For many people, it has less to do with pride in our country than it has to do with a "you ain't one of us" mentality.
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Old 07-18-2003, 08:53 AM   #5 (permalink)
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I thought the woman who wanted her picture with her head covered was a convert to Islam, not an Islamic immigrant. Is that right?

Also, when someone becomes an American citizen, they have the right to work to change whatever they want about America, just as if they were born in the US.
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Old 07-18-2003, 09:06 AM   #6 (permalink)
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i disagree with it to an extent, but they have the right to change things as much as any other citizen does.

they are as much american as the people who had their ancestors come here a decade or so earlier.

but, i do disagree w/ the idea of printing ballots in other languages and giving special exceptions or privilages to people speakin a certain language.
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Old 07-18-2003, 09:12 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Why not just use pictograms? That way even those who are born with English as a mother tongue but can't read can participate?
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Old 07-18-2003, 12:53 PM   #8 (permalink)
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I suppose you only wear ralph lauren and listen to N-Sync?

What's that I hear? The sound of marching brown shirts?
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Old 07-18-2003, 01:19 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ace_of_Lobster
I thought the woman who wanted her picture with her head covered was a convert to Islam, not an Islamic immigrant. Is that right?

Also, when someone becomes an American citizen, they have the right to work to change whatever they want about America, just as if they were born in the US.
She converted after 9/11, which is odd. I think she has some very serious disorders.
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Old 07-18-2003, 02:32 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Re: Rant on Immigration

Quote:
Originally posted by asquint


"In God We Trust" is our national motto. This is not some Christian, right wing, political slogan. We adopted this motto because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented. It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools. If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, because God is part of our culture.
BS. One the freedoms I have (and have fought for) as an American is to hold, or not hold, any religious beliefs I want. "In God We Trust" may be our national motto (though only passed in 1956, at the height of the communist scare), but it does not obligate me or anyone else to consider Him to be a part of our "culture".


Also, to leave your country because you dissagree with some portion of the way it is run is the height of cowardice. This is America. If you don't like it, fix it. Love it or leave it is a crock of shit.
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Old 07-18-2003, 04:10 PM   #11 (permalink)
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i thought the point of the picture on a license was to verify that you are indeed who you say you are...if you cover your damned face, you could be anybody! yes, immigrants should adapt to this country, not the other way around
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Old 07-18-2003, 04:13 PM   #12 (permalink)
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look this woman wasnt an immigrant ok?
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Old 07-18-2003, 04:20 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Actually, if all immigrants are supposed to adapt to their host land, shouldn't you be speaking Inuit or some such?

Smoking peace pipes and hunting buffalow?

Things change, it's their nature. Governments exist to REFLECT and SERVE the citizens who elect them. As soon as your rules say X or Y is a citizen, then you have to cater for them.

Simple, plain fact.
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Old 07-18-2003, 04:40 PM   #14 (permalink)
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TIME OUT

last time i checked, a judge DENIED the appeal of the woman to wear a viel for the id.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/06/06/florida.license.veil/

Quote:
A Florida judge rejected a woman's request to have her face covered by a veil in the photograph on her state driver's license, siding with the state Friday that a favorable ruling could be exploited by terrorists.
i remember studyin in govt, religion CANNOT be used as an excuse to break a law. the courts simply wont allow it (except for the amish, and i dont know why). i think that came from the chicken killing case, also from florida, church of babalumi vs florida or somethign.
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Old 07-18-2003, 04:40 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Wow, I'm sort of scared that people actually hold views like this. You have some interesting points, we are a nation of immigrants, and the language of the nation is English. However its also worth pointing out that being an immigrant is already hard enough, it doesn't need to be made harder.

What really disturbs me about your post however is your use of the recent Terrorist attacks to justify an opinion about the rate of naturalization. The only connection that I can see between the two subjects is that they both involve people who were foreign . Most people would be forced to concede that your painting with a pretty damed broad brush there.

As to your "in god we trust" and "love it or leave it" bullshit, well thats one of the saddest crocks I have ever heard. The single greatest thing about this country is the ability to change it. The sort of lock step mentality that your advocating is downright undemocratic, people should be criticizing the government early and often, not waiving flags and acting like cattle.
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Old 07-18-2003, 04:47 PM   #16 (permalink)
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The language of your nation is English...

Si Senior.
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Old 07-18-2003, 07:52 PM   #17 (permalink)
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I've seen this "editorial" in circulation ever since 9/11. It's not written in response to the florida thing...

My favorite rebuttal to the English only crap is that in my great state of Minnesota, ballots were printed in 14 different languages in 1860. Talk about multicultural, and they were all shades of white.
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Old 07-19-2003, 02:36 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Phaenx
She converted after 9/11, which is odd. I think she has some very serious disorders.
What does converting before or after 9/11 have to do with anything?
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Old 07-19-2003, 07:39 PM   #19 (permalink)
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i think the thing most people forget is that we were immigrants. this land truly "belongs" (if you can own land) to the native americans. remember when we came into their land? refused to adapt to their way of life and then killed them. People like this go out and murder innocents while wearing a bedsheet and a pillow case, and then go and proclaim their patriotism the next.
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Old 07-20-2003, 09:24 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Re: Rant on Immigration

Quote:
Originally posted by asquint
the dust from the attacks had barely settled when the "politically correct" crowd began complaining about the possibility that our patriotism was offending others.
I can't think of one example where the "politically correct crowd" actually complained about someone being patriotic. Its only when racist or religious views are pushed as patriotism that we get upset.


We speak ENGLISH, not Spanish, Portuguese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society, learn the language!

Who says we speak English? America has no official language and several states list both English and Spanish as their official language. Over half don't even have an official language and provide services in the languages of the majority and any sizable minorities. You could agrue that since the majority of Americans speak English that it is therefore THE language, but in some sw states the majority will soon speak spanish as a first language. In those states should we then only speak spanish and force anyone speaking english in those areas to learn spanish or move out?


"In God We Trust" is our national motto. This is not some Christian, right wing, political slogan. We adopted this motto because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented.


The majority of the founding fathers were not, in fact, Christians in true sense of the word. Like many of the prominent Europeans of the time, they were in fact deists, often times denying or minimizing the role of Jesus in religion. Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, and John Adams being a few examples.

Adams signed the Treaty of Tripoli (June 7, 1797). Article 11 states:
“The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion.”


The Treaty of Tripoli, passed by the U.S. Senate in 1797, read in part: "The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion." The treaty was written during the Washington administration, and sent to the Senate during the Adams administration. It was read aloud to the Senate, and each Senator received a printed copy. This was the 339th time that a recorded vote was required by the Senate, but only the third time a vote was unanimous (the next time was to honor George Washington). There is no record of any debate or dissension on the treaty. It was reprinted in full in three newspapers - two in Philadelphia, one in New York City. There is no record of public outcry or complaint in subsequent editions of the papers.
Jefferson’s letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823:
“The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.”

James Madison:
“Religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.”

Thomas Paine - From The Age of Reason, pp. 8–9:
“I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of....Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and of my own part, I disbelieve them all.”


America is an immigrant nation. There is no true hemogenous "american" culture, all there is is European culture and African culture and Mideastern Cuture and Asian culture that has been brought here. Right now the majority follow English customs and the standard culture of america is english, but soon that may change. When the majority of America speak spanish and are atheists, it will be the english speakers who will be asking for equal rights and representation. All we ask is that the minority is respected as much as the majority.
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Old 07-21-2003, 07:00 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Pennington,


Well stated
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Old 07-21-2003, 09:08 AM   #22 (permalink)
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well said indeed
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Old 07-21-2003, 09:31 AM   #23 (permalink)
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Damn well said
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Old 07-21-2003, 09:39 AM   #24 (permalink)
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America doesn't change laws or rules for immagrants, not should it. Certain custums will change, as popular opinion changes. But we are still a republic not a democracy. And yes English is the offical language of the US.
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Old 07-21-2003, 09:51 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Imo that goes both ways too. Popular opinion shouldn't change good judgment.

Popular opinion can support dictators and see how good that went in history.
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Old 07-21-2003, 10:12 AM   #27 (permalink)
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As for changing laws and rules for immigrant, noone is suggesting that we do. The Muslum women should have to get her picture taken without a burka just like I would have to take off my hat and sunglasses. The article posted makes three claims.
1) English is the national language and immigrants should have to learn it.
2) America is a christian nation and immigrants should see it as such.
3) If you don't like it you should leave.

As for 1, if a sizable minority of the taxpayers in an area speak spanish, the ballots in the area should, imho, have spanish instructions so they can exercise their rights as citizens. If their taxes are paying for the public school, then that school should offer spanish classes or at least english transition classes.
2 has been discredited above
3 doesn't need to be discredited. If you don't like it, you should vote for someone who will change it. Thats the way democracy works.
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Old 07-22-2003, 02:30 PM   #28 (permalink)
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I look at it like this...If I went to Mexico, I sure as hell would respect thier laws and learn spanish if I wanted to live thier. And if it was a requirement to wear a sombrero with a dancing chicken on my head in my drivers license photo it would happen. I wouldn't be bitching about this or that goes against my beliefs. They knew the rules before you came in and they still decided to come. My 2 cents..
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Old 07-22-2003, 02:56 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Old 07-22-2003, 03:23 PM   #30 (permalink)
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I think this thread was made by an extreme nationalist. That's all I have to say about that.
 
Old 07-22-2003, 03:28 PM   #31 (permalink)
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All you people seem to forget that this nation was founded on Judeo-Christian principle, and that we are a THEIEST nation.
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Old 07-22-2003, 03:37 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mojo_PeiPei
All you people seem to forget that this nation was founded on Judeo-Christian principle, and that we are a THEIEST nation.
Well, I am part of this nation, and I am not a thieist...
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Old 07-22-2003, 03:49 PM   #33 (permalink)
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When Virginia was passing their bill for religious freedom, there was some issue whether to make it freedom to be a Christian of any kind or to be anything you chose. The issue was settled in the preamble of the declaration.
Where the preamble declares that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed, by inserting the word "Jesus Christ," so that it should read "a departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion."

"The insertion was rejected by a great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend within the mantle of its protection the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mahometan, the Hindoo and infidel of every denomination." emphasis added.

- Thomas Jefferson: Autobiography, 1821. ME 1:67

in·fi·del (nf-dl, -dl)
n.

1. An unbeliever with respect to a particular religion, especially Christianity or Islam.
2. One who has no religious beliefs.
3. One who doubts or rejects a particular doctrine, system, or principle.


infidel

n : a person who does not acknowledge your God
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Old 07-22-2003, 03:54 PM   #34 (permalink)
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IN CONGRESS, July 4, 1776.

The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.


Yup, sounds like the words from a THEIEST nation.
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Old 07-22-2003, 04:04 PM   #35 (permalink)
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The Declaration of Independance is not a governing document of this country. It is simply a list of greivances and a statement of intent.
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Old 07-22-2003, 04:09 PM   #36 (permalink)
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I fail to see what your point is. It is a document that is fundamental to this country now, as it was in its founding.

"Drafted by Thomas Jefferson between June 11 and June 28, 1776, the Declaration of Independence is at once the nation's most cherished symbol of liberty and Jefferson's most enduring monument. Here, in exalted and unforgettable phrases, Jefferson expressed the convictions in the minds and hearts of the American people. The political philosophy of the Declaration was not new; its ideals of individual liberty had already been expressed by John Locke and the Continental philosophers. What Jefferson did was to summarize this philosophy in "self-evident truths" and set forth a list of grievances against the King in order to justify before the world the breaking of ties between the colonies and the mother country."
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Old 07-22-2003, 04:13 PM   #37 (permalink)
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Many, many of the founding fathers called themselves Deists, or freethinkers. If you would like, I could look up the quotes themselves, but its pretty much an established fact. The posted article is obviously defending the phrase"under god" and "in god we trust" by saying that the founding fathers were Christians or at least theists.



de·ism
n.

The belief, based solely on reason, in a God who created the universe and then abandoned it, assuming no control over life, exerting no influence on natural phenomena, and giving no supernatural revelation.

Key word here is abandoned. Deist are very much like atheists except that they use divine force in the creation of the universe. They see god as having no effect on worldly affairs and would be opposed to anything like "in god we trust" simply because of that. Why trust in god if you don't believe he is or can do anything or if he even exists any more.

[edit] - As for the Declaration of Independence or any other papers drafted by Congress, you'll see that they put large emphasis on the rights men have because they were created by a creator or nature's god. I fail to see how this doesn't include atheism and evolution. I certianly see my creator as evolution and nature's god as evolution. They specificly avoid the phrase God because they didn't believe in him in the traditional sense.

Last edited by Pennington; 07-22-2003 at 04:21 PM..
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Old 07-22-2003, 05:12 PM   #38 (permalink)
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Why can't everyone just be real people, not morons/jackass/racists/totally oblivious self righteous dickheads/etc.
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Old 07-22-2003, 05:20 PM   #39 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Xell101
Why can't everyone just be real people, not morons/jackass/racists/totally oblivious self righteous dickheads/etc.
huh?
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Old 07-22-2003, 05:27 PM   #40 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Xell101
Why can't everyone just be real people, not morons/jackass/racists/totally oblivious self righteous dickheads/etc.
All real people are morons/jackass/racists/totally oblivious self righteous dickheads/etc. Thats what makes us human.
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