Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community (https://thetfp.com/tfp/)
-   Tilted Politics (https://thetfp.com/tfp/tilted-politics/)
-   -   new political paradigm needed - not from them but from us! (https://thetfp.com/tfp/tilted-politics/47039-new-political-paradigm-needed-not-them-but-us.html)

ARTelevision 02-26-2004 11:24 AM

new political paradigm needed - not from them but from us!
 
It seems to me, respect for our history, processes, and the means of election requires more support and respect for the people who hold office than we seem willing to sustain.

That is what erodes our system.
Many people have insufficient confidence in the process.
That is our failing.

This applies to the citizens of all the governments of members who post here - and, not coincidentally - as a cross-section of our membership reveals that we are citizens of the most highly evolved and progressive of the world's nations.

I see the heavy bashing that our systems of government receive and I see the heavy doses of disrespect heaped upon elected officials. It is very seldon noted as such and seldom is it pointed out as a major problem in itself.

Any human endeavor stumbles under the weight of so much negative criticism. The very old and very tired shibboleth - of criticism being the way that governments are held responsible to their citizenries is so overused as an excuse to carry on the constant campaign of cheap shots, diatribes, and general tone of pompous and self-righteous indignation that issues from most "political debate" - is disheartening and unconvincing because it is so unconstructive.

I know many have forged iron-clad identities based on these behaviors and they are not justifiable - given the unprecedented historical progress governments have made toward achieving excellence.

I wonder if anyone else agrees with this?
I wonder if this will be just another opportunity to continue to justify the partisan bashfest? My hope is that this can be a positive thread in this problematically negative Forum.

Ustwo 02-26-2004 11:48 AM

I don't think anything can change.

What you have is a difference of core beliefs, and with core beliefs you can find no compromise.

I believe in the power of the individual to succeed or fail, and want them to have the right to do so on their own merit, unfettered by the chains of mediocrity so often imposed by government. I have a realistic view of human nature and know that good intentions mean nothing without results. People like me have tried to compromise and its never enough, they always want more. I’ve come to the conclusion that compromise is futile, they must be defeated, we have given enough and its time to start taking back.

ubertuber 02-26-2004 07:38 PM

I agree with you Art, and thanks for putting it out there.

Quote:

Originally posted by Ustwo
What you have is a difference of core beliefs, and with core beliefs you can find no compromise.

I hear what you are saying. But, this doesn't preclude respect. Different ideas can coexist. My girlfriend and I are in some ways radically different in our political and social thinking. It is taking a lot of conscious effort to CHOOSE to remember that the existance of a differing opinion does not necessitate an attack on it or even trying to help the other person "come around".


Quote:

Originally posted by Ustwo
I believe in the power of the individual to succeed or fail, and want them to have the right to do so on their own merit, unfettered by the chains of mediocrity so often imposed by government. I have a realistic view of human nature and know that good intentions mean nothing without results. People like me have tried to compromise and its never enough, they always want more. I’ve come to the conclusion that compromise is futile, they must be defeated, we have given enough and its time to start taking back.
I agree with you on these points as well, but I think the attitude should be one of persuasion not conflict. I prefer to think of convincing rather than defeating. I think this is where Art is coming from - that this Forum, as part of the TFP and in support of the TFP's ideals, can be a place where idealogies can compete and interact, but in a spirit of communication not degradation. Anything less would not be worthy of the server that hosts us.

Ustwo 02-26-2004 10:20 PM

I have converted many liberals but its a long and slow process. Liberalism is a seductive ideology and it can take some people many years to see its failures to understand why it fails and corrupts the human spirit. They must be willing to accept logic into their arguments over emotions, and know that just because something sounds good, it does not make it so once implemented. Until they reach this point, discourse is meaningless. Added those who are drawn to this board are not the moderates or undecided, but those with a cause and strong feelings towards it. When an individual does appear with a question about the political creeds, the board members swarm over them, like missionaries to an unsaved soul, each giving sermons from their book of political faith.

After the newcomer leaves in abject terror, and I continue posting in the tradition of Sisyphus.

Superbelt 02-27-2004 04:34 AM

The primary points of what you have said Ustwo

* Liberalism needs converted from, cause, liberals really are savages.

* Liberalism is inherently wrong, and those who identify as such are corrupted in spirit and can't use logic. It always fails, regardless of the fact that liberalism is the sole reason womens suffrage and the civil rights act/movement and the New Deal existed(as three high profile examples). As well as the irony of you having the first truly progressive (which is just another word for liberal) President as your avatar. I don't think Old Bully would like to hear you trash his philosophical brethren.

* You can't talk to a liberal, liberals are thick headed and rutted in an ideology. Mostly because liberals are emotional. (just like women)

* You try to compromise and come to a solution but the liberals always want more so you are forced to hand the liberals their asses on a platter.

* Finally, we should find the liberals leaders, kill them and convert their followers to Conservatism.

Ok, I think that about sums up your two posts. Points covering your last post first, then your first post last.
Now tell me, does it embarass you at all for someone to point our your partisan self agrandizing self in a thread where the Originator says:
Quote:

I wonder if this will be just another opportunity to continue to justify the partisan bashfest? My hope is that this can be a positive thread in this problematically negative Forum.
All you do for two of the threads four posts is bash liberals for being liberal.

Ustwo, you never post in the tradition of Sisyphus. Narcissus is your forebear.


_______
To ART, I will disagree with one point of yours
Quote:

The very old and very tired shibboleth - of criticism being the way that governments are held responsible to their citizenries is so overused as an excuse to carry on the constant campaign
Anything that was deliberately enumerated in the Constitution such as the right to address grievances, which is a nice way of saying argue and criticise decisions you don't like, says to me that the Framers thought it an important right. And I think they would be upset to hear Americans today think it is a right that goes too far.

Criticism is the most powerful way the common man can help to induce change in a nation. Lawmakers can use positive, constructive discussion, but for the average american a cacophany of voices brings change much faster.

ARTelevision 02-27-2004 05:43 AM

Superbelt, thanks.
Here's what I think about your final point:
I do comprehend the essence of the idea of constructive criticism being helpful to an evolving process. I see a difference developing, however, when it becomes a refuge for scoundrels, and even more commonly when it is really a token for powerlessness.

You know how constant complaining can be the easiset and least productive way to improve a situation? That's a lot of what I see happening. I think that constructive engagement in a political process is the way to go - not complaining.

It is a slow row to hoe. Progress through constructive engagement takes some strategy and it takes starting at the bottom - doing grass roots political work. Things like that can - in the long run - change processes. Complaining couched as constructive criticism is transprently empty.


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 05:47 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
© 2002-2012 Tilted Forum Project


1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190 191 192 193 194 195 196 197 198 199 200 201 202 203 204 205 206 207 208 209 210 211 212 213 214 215 216 217 218 219 220 221 222 223 224 225 226 227 228 229 230 231 232 233 234 235 236 237 238 239 240 241 242 243 244 245 246 247 248 249 250 251 252 253 254 255 256 257 258 259 260 261 262 263 264 265 266 267 268 269 270 271 272 273 274 275 276 277 278 279 280 281 282 283 284 285 286 287 288 289 290 291 292 293 294 295 296 297 298 299 300 301 302 303 304 305 306 307 308 309 310 311 312 313 314 315 316 317 318 319 320 321 322 323 324 325 326 327 328 329 330 331 332 333 334 335 336 337 338 339 340 341 342 343 344 345 346 347 348 349 350 351 352 353 354 355 356 357 358 359 360