haiti or Iraq (merged threads) - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

mrbuck12000 · 02-22-2004, 06:47 AM

there are people killing each other just south of us in Haiti, this has been going on for sometime now.
We have so many troops in iraq, and we invaded that country to help out the people. Why do we not help out the people of haiti?
Does haliburton have no interest there?????

mr b

floydthebarber · 02-22-2004, 07:02 AM

Haiti is going to get worse before it gets better. Too bad they don't have an ocean of oil below them.

Strange Famous · 02-22-2004, 07:39 AM

The problem is, how can the US help Haiti?

All they can do is help one side win the civil war (allright, guarantee one side wins) - the violence wont stop.

America cant stop people fighting, it can just defeat one side or the other. If they throw Aristotle out, his people will become the new rebels, if they help him put the rebels down, it wont stop the civil war, it will just create more hatrid of Aristotle.

Peacekeeping is a great idea, but I dont see how you can stop people from fighting when they are determined to do it. The way to help Haiti is through aid and helping ease the terrible poverty there, and in fairness, there are many American missionaries there trying to do that.

All America can really do is not sell these people weapons, but even that doesnt help, because the Russians sell weapons to anyone anyway.

mrbuck12000 · 02-22-2004, 07:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Strange Famous
The problem is, how can the US help Haiti?

All they can do is help one side win the civil war (allright, guarantee one side wins) - the violence wont stop.

America cant stop people fighting, it can just defeat one side or the other. If they throw Aristotle out, his people will become the new rebels, if they help him put the rebels down, it wont stop the civil war, it will just create more hatrid of Aristotle.

Peacekeeping is a great idea, but I dont see how you can stop people from fighting when they are determined to do it. The way to help Haiti is through aid and helping ease the terrible poverty there, and in fairness, there are many American missionaries there trying to do that.

All America can really do is not sell these people weapons, but even that doesnt help, because the Russians sell weapons to anyone anyway.

Well then will the violence stop in Iraq? If we are willing to help Iraq, then don't we have to help other countries as well or do we just pick and choose as to where the money and the best investments will be???

Strange Famous · 02-22-2004, 07:59 AM

The violence in Iraq will never stop while American troops occupy the country.

mrbuck12000 · 02-22-2004, 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Strange Famous
The violence in Iraq will never stop while American troops occupy the country.

that is exactly what Nader said this morning in meet the press after he announced his run for the white house.

mr b

Strange Famous · 02-22-2004, 08:29 AM

America's problem is that Iraq is a country created falsely by British colonists, and it has always been split into three factions... the most dangerous part of the Iraq war was when they had to rush to occupy Northern Iraq before Turkey invaded (a country that America rightly fears) - they cannotback the Kurds because it would create war with Turkey, they cannot back the Ba'arth party, those are the people they have spent the last year destroying, which leaves the Shi-ites - who are more dangerous and hostile to America than any other group in Iraq.

This is why America will not withdraw and let the Iraqi people rebuild, they know that the new Iraq will be a far greater threat to them than the old one... yet every day they stay, they make it worse.

theusername · 02-22-2004, 09:27 AM

Haiti would welcome US intervention, much like Liberia did. Political pressure for Aristide to step down and new elections to take place. Then send in peacekeepers to make sure that elections are fair. These are the only steps the US should take at this point.

As for Iraq, there will not be peace while US forces are there but after they leave they should have installed a basis for a Democracy. This will enable Iraqis to inherit a somewhat powerful government that can control the country and contain the interests of the people. Of course thats an optimist's point of view.

nanofever · 02-22-2004, 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by theusername
As for Iraq, there will not be peace while US forces are there but after they leave they should have installed a basis for a Democracy. This will enable Iraqis to inherit a somewhat powerful government that can control the country and contain the interests of the people. Of course thats an optimist's point of view.

The vegas odds of a democracy in Iraq not installing an islamic dictatorship is something like 120:1.

Strange Famous · 02-22-2004, 10:08 AM

The Shi-ites are the majority in Iraq, that is a fact. If a free election is held, Anti American, Islamic extremists will win.

The really scary thing is listening to Islamic people from the East aping the words of the European crusaders of the middle ages... they talk of believers and infidels, of a jihad, a holy war...

silent_jay · 02-22-2004, 10:20 AM

Haiti will never get US help because like a previous poster said there is no ocean of oil beneath it. I also agree with everything that Strange Famous said regarding Iraq and the changeover of power from American to Iraqi. Islamic Extremists will take over this country if and when the US leaves.

Dragonlich · 02-22-2004, 10:28 AM

Strange, contrary to popular belief, the Iraqi shiites by and large do not support Islamic extremism. The extremists will certainly try to grab hold of power, by any means they deem necessary, but they will not win. Iraq has been secular for too long for such an extreme faction to suddenly rule the country.

Mojo_PeiPei · 02-22-2004, 01:00 PM

Other countries have bigger stakes in Iraq's oil, not us, thats why we are there.

silent_jay · 02-22-2004, 02:59 PM

Now the US is looking out for the best interests of others, thats the funniest thing I've heard all day. I'm not trying to antagonize or start anything I genuinely did find it funny.

onetime2 · 02-22-2004, 03:06 PM

Just as the UN has. The final US troops were pulled out in 2000. And, as I recall, there was no ocean of oil there then.

Bookman · 02-22-2004, 05:28 PM

Good post.
Iraq for democracy..freedom..so little girls can gave all the ooportunities life should offer them. I think Haiti qualifies right about now.

nate_dawg · 02-22-2004, 05:50 PM

correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it the U.S. that helped put Aristide in power?

and didnt we go back and restore order when the people rebelled against him then?

not to mention the fact that the military is a bit overstretched the way it is.........

seretogis · 02-22-2004, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mrbuck12000
Does haliburton have no interest there?????

Clinton put Aristide in power, why would Dubya want to help bring him back to power if he has done nothing to limit corruption and the people want him out?

Lebell · 02-22-2004, 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by nate_dawg
correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it the U.S. that helped put Aristide in power?

and didnt we go back and restore order when the people rebelled against him then?

not to mention the fact that the military is a bit overstretched the way it is.........

Actually yes, you are incorrect.

Aristide was the democratically elected leader of Haiti who was ousted in a military coup. The US invaded and restored him to power.

HarmlessRabbit · 02-22-2004, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by seretogis
Clinton put Aristide in power, why would Dubya want to help bring him back to power if he has done nothing to limit corruption and the people want him out?

Because he was democratically elected, and we invaded Iraq on the pretense that restoring democracy is worth fighting for?

That's just a guess on my part, maybe your thought process is different.

silent_jay · 02-22-2004, 09:17 PM

Democracy is good in some parts of the world but not in the ones without oil.

Lebell · 02-22-2004, 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by silent_jay
Democracy is good in some parts of the world but not in the ones without oil.

What I'm just not getting is how you and some others are completely ignoring the fact that the US DID invade Haiti at one point to restore the democratically elected government.

silent_jay · 02-22-2004, 10:30 PM

That was a different President that wasn't fixated with oil and war, although the two do go hand and hand one pays for the other.

Lebell · 02-22-2004, 10:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by silent_jay
That was a different President that wasn't fixated with oil and war, although the two do go hand and hand one pays for the other.

ummm, what?

Can you clarify?

Ustwo · 02-22-2004, 11:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by silent_jay
That was a different President that wasn't fixated with oil and war, although the two do go hand and hand one pays for the other.

For a guy not 'fixated' on war, Clinton sure had fun sending our troops all the hell over and blowing things up.

silent_jay · 02-22-2004, 11:31 PM

What i meant was that bush is fixated with oil i have never denied that Clinton liked to send troops into combat because we all know he did. Was Clinton not Pres. when the US first helped Haiti, and now that Bush is in power he won't help because what does Haiti have to offer him?

Mojo_PeiPei · 02-22-2004, 11:36 PM

How is Bush oil crazy?

Lebell · 02-22-2004, 11:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by silent_jay
What i meant was that bush is fixated with oil i have never denied that Clinton liked to send troops into combat because we all know he did. Was Clinton not Pres. when the US first helped Haiti, and now that Bush is in power he won't help because what does Haiti have to offer him?

Thanks for the clarification

No, that was Reagan.

EDIT CORRECTION:

Lebell didn't google his facts like he normally does.

Silent Jay was indeed correct: It was Clinton, NOT Reagan and the year was 1994.

And much Embarasslarity ensued...

-lebell

silent_jay · 02-22-2004, 11:50 PM

sorry abourt that Lebell I must have had a brainfart. Thanks for letting me know it was Reagan, I really wasn't sure and didn't want to google it.

Quote:

Originally posted by Mojo_PeiPei
How is Bush oil crazy?

Where did Bush choose to invade? even though N. Korea posed a bigger threat. I think this war explains how Bush is oil crazy.

nanofever · 02-22-2004, 11:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mojo_PeiPei
How is Bush oil crazy?

Does driving an oil company into the ground count as crazy ?

*blatant threadjack*

Mojo_PeiPei · 02-23-2004, 12:32 AM

Silent_Jay its called policy, thats what Iraq was about, not oil. And hey I'm not unreasonable, oil was part of that policy, but not in terms that you are saying.

onetime2 · 02-23-2004, 05:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by silent_jay
Was Clinton not Pres. when the US first helped Haiti, and now that Bush is in power he won't help because what does Haiti have to offer him?

Umm, no the US has a history of helping Haiti that goes all the way back to at least 1913.

Interesting that those who decry Bush for invading countries want him to invade yet another.

silent_jay · 02-23-2004, 05:50 AM

Mojo I highly doubt Iraq was about policy, I'm pretty sure the two things involved in his decesion to go to war were Oil, and revenge (remember Saddam tried to kill hid "daddy")

Ya I realized Reagan was President then onetime read a bit higher Lebell already corrected my mistake. And where did it say I wanted the US to invade Haiti, would I not be a hypocrite then, because I oppose the Iraq war? No I don't want the US to invade Haiti but helping with negotiations and maybe leaning on the parties to resolve thier disputes.

HarmlessRabbit · 02-23-2004, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by onetime2
Umm, no the US has a history of helping Haiti that goes all the way back to at least 1913.

Interesting that those who decry Bush for invading countries want him to invade yet another.

I wouldn't call helping the democratically elected leader of a country, at his request, put down a violent coup attempt "invading".

Like him or not, he is the elected leader. Does the USA want to preserve democracy or not?

For bonus credit, research how Saddam Hussein came to power. Apply that research to the Haiti situation, and draw conclusions about what Haiti will turn into if we allow the coup to happen.

onetime2 · 02-23-2004, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by HarmlessRabbit
I wouldn't call helping the democratically elected leader of a country, at his request, put down a violent coup attempt "invading".

Like him or not, he is the elected leader. Does the USA want to preserve democracy or not?

For bonus credit, research how Saddam Hussein came to power. Apply that research to the Haiti situation, and draw conclusions about what Haiti will turn into if we allow the coup to happen.

So, sending military forces should be the first response? What ever happened to ridiculing Bush for not using diplomacy?

Do you believe Haiti will become another Iraq?

How about reading up on the past "leaders" of Haiti and the impact the US has had on resolving the conflicts there in the past? It was just a couple of years ago that we sent forces to "stabilize" Haiti, obviously it does not work.

Doing the same thing and expecting different results, not a good plan in my book.

onetime2 · 02-23-2004, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by silent_jay
Ya I realized Reagan was President then onetime read a bit higher Lebell already corrected my mistake. And where did it say I wanted the US to invade Haiti, would I not be a hypocrite then, because I oppose the Iraq war? No I don't want the US to invade Haiti but helping with negotiations and maybe leaning on the parties to resolve thier disputes.

I wasn't talking about Reagan. I know he's old, but he was just a baby in 1913.

I also never said you wanted to see Haiti invaded. I should have been more clear in my assertions.

Strange Famous · 02-23-2004, 12:03 PM

Aristotle initially had a lot of popular support in Haiti as I understand, but has become corrupted once in power.

onetime2 · 02-23-2004, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Strange Famous
Aristotle initially had a lot of popular support in Haiti as I understand, but has become corrupted once in power.

That is also the thinking from the US govt perspective. It has suggested a plan which would offer some shared power between the rebels and Aristide in the interim while new elections can be completed.

powerclown · 02-23-2004, 01:45 PM

Theyre getting US help, if you call 50 Marines help. And theyre there to protect the US Embassy, if nothing else.

link

The US's biggest interest in Haiti (or, more specifically, the Dominican Republic across the island) is Tourism, illegal immigration into Miami, and 'humanitarian' concerns.

nate_dawg · 02-23-2004, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lebell
Actually yes, you are incorrect.

Aristide was the democratically elected leader of Haiti who was ousted in a military coup. The US invaded and restored him to power.

thanks, wasnt positive on that fact

02-22-2004, 06:47 AM	#1 (permalink)
mrbuck12000 Psycho Location: wisCONsin	haiti or Iraq there are people killing each other just south of us in Haiti, this has been going on for sometime now. We have so many troops in iraq, and we invaded that country to help out the people. Why do we not help out the people of haiti? Does haliburton have no interest there????? mr b __________________ "There's an old saying in Tennessee -- I know it's in Texas, it's probably in Tennessee --that says, fool me once, shame on ... shame on you. Fool me ... You can't get fooled again." - G.W. Bush quoted by the Baltimore Sun - Oct 6, 2002

02-22-2004, 07:02 AM	#2 (permalink)
floydthebarber Insane Location: ?	Haiti is going to get worse before it gets better. Too bad they don't have an ocean of oil below them. __________________ wish you were here

02-22-2004, 07:39 AM	#3 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	The problem is, how can the US help Haiti? All they can do is help one side win the civil war (allright, guarantee one side wins) - the violence wont stop. America cant stop people fighting, it can just defeat one side or the other. If they throw Aristotle out, his people will become the new rebels, if they help him put the rebels down, it wont stop the civil war, it will just create more hatrid of Aristotle. Peacekeeping is a great idea, but I dont see how you can stop people from fighting when they are determined to do it. The way to help Haiti is through aid and helping ease the terrible poverty there, and in fairness, there are many American missionaries there trying to do that. All America can really do is not sell these people weapons, but even that doesnt help, because the Russians sell weapons to anyone anyway. __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

02-22-2004, 07:59 AM	#5 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	The violence in Iraq will never stop while American troops occupy the country. __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

02-22-2004, 08:29 AM	#7 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	America's problem is that Iraq is a country created falsely by British colonists, and it has always been split into three factions... the most dangerous part of the Iraq war was when they had to rush to occupy Northern Iraq before Turkey invaded (a country that America rightly fears) - they cannotback the Kurds because it would create war with Turkey, they cannot back the Ba'arth party, those are the people they have spent the last year destroying, which leaves the Shi-ites - who are more dangerous and hostile to America than any other group in Iraq. This is why America will not withdraw and let the Iraqi people rebuild, they know that the new Iraq will be a far greater threat to them than the old one... yet every day they stay, they make it worse. __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

02-22-2004, 09:27 AM	#8 (permalink)
theusername Insane	Haiti would welcome US intervention, much like Liberia did. Political pressure for Aristide to step down and new elections to take place. Then send in peacekeepers to make sure that elections are fair. These are the only steps the US should take at this point. As for Iraq, there will not be peace while US forces are there but after they leave they should have installed a basis for a Democracy. This will enable Iraqis to inherit a somewhat powerful government that can control the country and contain the interests of the people. Of course thats an optimist's point of view.

02-22-2004, 10:08 AM	#10 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	The Shi-ites are the majority in Iraq, that is a fact. If a free election is held, Anti American, Islamic extremists will win. The really scary thing is listening to Islamic people from the East aping the words of the European crusaders of the middle ages... they talk of believers and infidels, of a jihad, a holy war... __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

02-22-2004, 10:20 AM	#11 (permalink)
silent_jay Her Jay Location: Ontario for now....	Haiti will never get US help because like a previous poster said there is no ocean of oil beneath it. I also agree with everything that Strange Famous said regarding Iraq and the changeover of power from American to Iraqi. Islamic Extremists will take over this country if and when the US leaves. __________________ Absence makes the heart grow fonder

02-22-2004, 10:28 AM	#12 (permalink)
Dragonlich 42, baby! Location: The Netherlands	Strange, contrary to popular belief, the Iraqi shiites by and large do not support Islamic extremism. The extremists will certainly try to grab hold of power, by any means they deem necessary, but they will not win. Iraq has been secular for too long for such an extreme faction to suddenly rule the country.

02-22-2004, 01:00 PM	#13 (permalink)
Mojo_PeiPei Kiss of Death Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow	Other countries have bigger stakes in Iraq's oil, not us, thats why we are there. __________________ To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

02-22-2004, 02:59 PM	#14 (permalink)
silent_jay Her Jay Location: Ontario for now....	Now the US is looking out for the best interests of others, thats the funniest thing I've heard all day. I'm not trying to antagonize or start anything I genuinely did find it funny. __________________ Absence makes the heart grow fonder

02-22-2004, 03:06 PM	#15 (permalink)
onetime2 Junkie Location: NJ	The US has helped Haiti Just as the UN has. The final US troops were pulled out in 2000. And, as I recall, there was no ocean of oil there then. __________________ Strive to be more curious than ignorant. Last edited by onetime2; 02-22-2004 at 03:09 PM..

02-22-2004, 05:28 PM	#16 (permalink)
Bookman Insane	Good post. Iraq for democracy..freedom..so little girls can gave all the ooportunities life should offer them. I think Haiti qualifies right about now.

02-22-2004, 05:50 PM	#17 (permalink)
nate_dawg Crazy	correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it the U.S. that helped put Aristide in power? and didnt we go back and restore order when the people rebelled against him then? not to mention the fact that the military is a bit overstretched the way it is.........

02-22-2004, 09:17 PM	#21 (permalink)
silent_jay Her Jay Location: Ontario for now....	Democracy is good in some parts of the world but not in the ones without oil. __________________ Absence makes the heart grow fonder

02-22-2004, 10:30 PM	#23 (permalink)
silent_jay Her Jay Location: Ontario for now....	That was a different President that wasn't fixated with oil and war, although the two do go hand and hand one pays for the other. __________________ Absence makes the heart grow fonder

02-22-2004, 11:31 PM	#26 (permalink)
silent_jay Her Jay Location: Ontario for now....	What i meant was that bush is fixated with oil i have never denied that Clinton liked to send troops into combat because we all know he did. Was Clinton not Pres. when the US first helped Haiti, and now that Bush is in power he won't help because what does Haiti have to offer him? __________________ Absence makes the heart grow fonder

02-22-2004, 11:36 PM	#27 (permalink)
Mojo_PeiPei Kiss of Death Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow	How is Bush oil crazy? __________________ To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

02-23-2004, 12:32 AM	#31 (permalink)
Mojo_PeiPei Kiss of Death Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow	Silent_Jay its called policy, thats what Iraq was about, not oil. And hey I'm not unreasonable, oil was part of that policy, but not in terms that you are saying. __________________ To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

02-23-2004, 05:50 AM	#33 (permalink)
silent_jay Her Jay Location: Ontario for now....	Mojo I highly doubt Iraq was about policy, I'm pretty sure the two things involved in his decesion to go to war were Oil, and revenge (remember Saddam tried to kill hid "daddy") Ya I realized Reagan was President then onetime read a bit higher Lebell already corrected my mistake. And where did it say I wanted the US to invade Haiti, would I not be a hypocrite then, because I oppose the Iraq war? No I don't want the US to invade Haiti but helping with negotiations and maybe leaning on the parties to resolve thier disputes. __________________ Absence makes the heart grow fonder

02-23-2004, 12:03 PM	#37 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	Aristotle initially had a lot of popular support in Haiti as I understand, but has become corrupted once in power. __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

02-23-2004, 01:45 PM	#39 (permalink)
powerclown Junkie Location: Detroit, MI	Theyre getting US help, if you call 50 Marines help. And theyre there to protect the US Embassy, if nothing else. link The US's biggest interest in Haiti (or, more specifically, the Dominican Republic across the island) is Tourism, illegal immigration into Miami, and 'humanitarian' concerns. Last edited by powerclown; 02-23-2004 at 01:47 PM..