mrbuck12000

not sure if any of you have heard this or if it matters, but another 'celeb' jumped on the clark band wagon...this time michael moore. this is a link to his site if you care to take a look at what he says.

http://www.clark04.com/story/79/

Good, bad, doesn't matter. What do you think.

Mr b

Lebell

I don't understand how Moore can support Clark when Moore was against the Kosovo bombing and Clark was the guy running it.

Not to mention, that Clark is on congressional record (2002 I think) as having supported President Bush in Iraq.

My take is Moore is trying to support someone, anyone, who he thinks can beat Bush.

Personally, I don't think Clark is the man.

I don't think even a Dean/Clark ticket can win.

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forseti-6

I'm a big Clark supporter, and I too don't believe he nor Dean can overcome Bush. I think the whole capture of Saddam swayed too many "sheep" supporters in Bush's favor.

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ubertuber

I met Wesley Clark at one of his fundraisers about a month ago. To be honest, I just don't think he is compelling enough to have a real chance at the White House. His public speaking isn't great and he just doesn't do much to capture people's vision. Seemed like a nice guy, but sort of lacking in that larger-than-life charisma that is needed in national politics.

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Ustwo

BINGO

Moore is desperate for someone to beat Bush, and he figures Clark is the only one with a chance. Kinda pathetic really.

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Sparhawk

Didn't we go into Iraq in 2003?

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Ustwo

Despite some claims, its not like we just said 'Hey lets have a war!' and left. Clark is on record stating Iraq has WMD’s and supporting UNILATERAL action in Iraq in testimony to congress. What more do you need?

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archer2371

Indeed we did, however initial UN Weapons Inspections and 1441 were drawn up in October of 2002. Also, the initial ideas for a working paper authorizing a UN invasion force to go into Iraq were drawn up in that year, so there was some talk about it in the fall of 2002.

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Lebell

Yup.

The only thing I don't remember is when Clark testified to Congress. That he testified in support of the president I remember very clearly.

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Ustwo

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Sparhawk

Don't believe everything Drudge and Rush say... Link to the full transcript follows:

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/20.../index_np.html

http://commdocs.house.gov/committees...as269000_0.htm

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"In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work."

Lebell

WEEELL NOW.

I just read his whole testimony and it seems to me that the best Clark can say is that he supported diplomacy first.

After that, war.

He certainly believed Iraq had WMD's and was actively pursuing nukes.

But enough.

Here is the COMPLETE testimony, pulled from that commdocs link:


------------------------------------------------------------------------


General CLARK. Thank you very much Mr. Chairman, Representative Skelton, and distinguished members of the committee. Thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today.

This is a committee that has been very strongly supportive of the men and women in uniform, and I want to thank you personally for the support that so many of you have given to me during some very, very tough times when I was in uniform. And, on behalf of all the men and women and their families, we really appreciate this committee, your commitment, your willingness to give up your own time to come out and visit with the troops, your determination to work interests on behalf of the troops and families when there is nothing but your duty as representatives of the people on the line. And, we recognize it and we appreciate it and we are grateful for it.

I want to tell you also I am very honored to be here, because I believe that in our democracy, discussions of critical strategic issues—and this is certainly one—at an historic time strengthen the United States, they don't weaken us.

Public information, public dialogue, and public discussion is what this country is all about. And, certainly when we are considering a course as fraught with uncertainty as that which appears to be unfolding before us, we need the wholehearted understanding and resolution of the American people. And, I am particularly honored, Mr. Chairman, that you would ask me as a retired military officer to come back and appear before you and that you would consider my opinions and concerns relevant to the issue at hand, even though I have left the United States Army and I am now engaged in another profession, which is under question—investment banking. And so, I am delighted to be with you, sir. I have submitted a written statement, but I would like to summarize——

Page 16 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC

Mr. HUNTER. Welcome back, General.

General CLARK. I would like to summarize a few points from it.

Mr. HUNTER. Without objection, your statement will be taken into the record.

General CLARK. There is no question that Saddam Hussein is a threat. I was in the Joint Staff in October of 1994. I think the date was the 8th of October, Thursday morning. The intelligence officer walked in and said, ''Sir, you are not going to believe this. Here are the pictures. You can't believe that this is the Republican Guard. They are right back in the same attack positions that they occupied four years ago before they invaded Kuwait. And here are the two divisions, and there are signs of mobilization and concerns north, and we can't understand it.''

And, General Peay was the commander of Central Command (CENTCOM). Shalikashvili, I think, was visiting Haiti at the time with Secretary of Defense Perry, and we rushed together and we put together a program. General Peay deployed some 15,000 American troops and aircraft over to block it. And, after a few days Saddam Hussein recognized what a difficult position he had put himself in and withdrew the troops. But, we had not expected it. It was an unanticipated move. It made no sense from our point of view for Saddam Hussein to do this, but he did it. It was a signal warning that Saddam Hussein is not only malevolent and violent, but he is also to some large degree unpredictable, at least to us. I am sure he has a rationale for what he is doing, but we don't always know it.

Page 17 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC

He does retain his chemical and biological capabilities to some extent. And he is, as far as we know, actively pursuing nuclear capabilities, though he doesn't have nuclear warheads yet. If he were to acquire nuclear weapons, I think our friends in the region would face greatly increased risk, as would we. Saddam might use these weapons as a deterrent while launching attacks against Israel or his other neighbors. He might threaten American forces in the region. He might determine that he was the messenger of Allah and simply strike directly at Israel; or Israel, weighing the possibilities of blackmail or aggression, might feel compelled to strike Iraq first.

Now, Saddam has been pursuing nuclear weapons and we have been living with this risk for over 20 years. He does not have the weapons now as best we can determine. He might have the weapons in a year or two if the control for the highly enriched uranium and other materials broke down. I think his best opportunity would have been to go to his friend Slobodon Milosevic and ask for those materials during the Kosovo campaign, since there was active collusion between the Serbs and the Iraqis; but apparently, if he asked for them, he didn't get them, because the Serbs have turned them over for us. If he can't get the highly enriched uranium, then it might take him five years or more to go through a centrifuge process or gaseous diffusion process to enrich the uranium.

But, the situation is not stable. The U.N. weapons inspectors, however ineffective they might have been—and there is some degree of difference of opinion on that—nevertheless provided assistance in impeding his development programs. They have been absent for four years. And, the sanction regime designed to restrict his weapons materials and resources has been continuously eroded and therefore the situation is not stable.

Page 18 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC

The problem of Iraq is not a problem that can be postponed indefinitely. And of course, Saddam's current efforts themselves are violations of international law as expressed in U.N. resolutions.

Our President has emphasized the urgency of eliminating these weapons and weapons programs. I strongly support his efforts to encourage the United Nations to act on this problem. And, in taking this to the United Nations the President's clear determination to act if the United Nations can't, provides strong leverage for undergirding ongoing diplomatic efforts.

But, the problem of Iraq is only one element of the broader security challenges facing our country. We have an unfinished worldwide war against al Qaeda, a war that has to be won in conjunction with friends and allies, and that ultimately will be won as much by persuasion as by the use of force. We have got to turn off the al Qaeda recruiting machine. Now some 3,000 deaths on September 11 testified to the real danger from al Qaeda. And, I think everyone acknowledges that al Qaeda has not yet been defeated.

As far as I know, I haven't seen any substantial evidence linking Saddam's regime to the al Qaeda network, though such evidence may emerge. But nevertheless, winning the war against al Qaeda and taking actions against the weapons program in Iraq, those are two different problems that may require two different sets of solutions. In other words, to put it back in the military parlance, Iraq—they are an operational-level problem. We have got other operational-level problems in the Middle East, like the ongoing conflict between the Israelis and the Palestinians. Al Qaeda and the foundation of radical extremist fundamentalist Islam, that is the strategic problem. We have got to make sure that in addressing the operational problem, we are effective in going after the larger strategic problem.

Page 19 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC

So, the critical issue facing the United States right now is how to force action against Saddam Hussein and his weapons programs without detracting from our focus on al Qaeda or our efforts to deal with other immediate and maybe long-term security problems.

I would like to offer the following observations by way of how we could proceed. First of all, I do believe United States diplomacy in the United Nations will be strengthened if the Congress can adopt a resolution expressing U.S. determination to act if the United Nations cannot act. The use of force must remain a U.S. option under active consideration. Such congressional resolution need not at this point authorize the use of force. The more focused the resolution on Iraq, the more focused it is on the problem of weapons of mass destruction, the greater its utility in the United Nations, the more nearly unanimous the resolution, the greater its utility is, the greater its impact is on the diplomatic efforts underway.

The President and his national security team have got to deploy imagination, leverage, and patience in working through the United Nations. In the near term, time is on our side and we should endeavor to use the United Nations if at all possible. This may require a period of time for inspections or the development of a more intrusive inspection regime such as Richard Perle has mentioned, if necessary, backed by force. It may involve cracking down on the eroding sanctions regime and countries like Syria who are helping Iraq illegally export oil, and enabling Saddam Hussein to divert resources to his own purposes.

We have to work this problem in a way to gain worldwide legitimacy and understanding for the concerns that we rightly feel and for our leadership. This is what U.S. leadership in the world must be. We must bring others to share our views and not be too quick to rush to try to impose them, even if we have the power to do so.

Page 20 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC

I agree that there is a risk that the inspections would fail to provide evidence of the weapons program. They might fail. But, I think we can deal with this problem as we move along. And, I think the difficulties of dealing with this outcome are more than offset by the opportunities to gain allies, support, and legitimacy in the campaign against Saddam Hussein.

If the efforts to resolve the problem by using the United Nations fail either initially or ultimately, then we need to form the broadest coalition, including our North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) allies in the North Atlantic Council, if we are going to have to bring forces to bear.

We should not be using force until the personnel, the organizations, the plans that will be required for post-conflict Iraq are prepared and readied. This includes dealing with requirements for humanitarian assistance, police and judicial capabilities, emergency medical and reconstruction assistance in preparations for a transitional governing body and eventual elections, perhaps even including a new constitution.

Ideally, the international and multinational organizations will participate in the readying of such post-conflict operations: the United Nations, NATO, other regional and other organizations, Islamic organizations. But, we have no idea how long this campaign could last. And, if it were to go like the campaign against the Afghans, against the Taliban in which suddenly the Taliban collapsed and there we were, we need to be ready; because, if suddenly Saddam Hussein's government collapses and we don't have everything ready to go, we are going to have chaos in that region. We may not get control of all the weapons of mass destruction, technicians, plans, capabilities. In fact, what may happen is we will remove a repressive regime and have it replaced with a fundamentalist regime which contributes to the strategic problem rather than to helping to solve it.

Page 21 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC

So, all that having been said, the option to use force must remain on the table. It should be used as the last resort after all diplomatic means have been exhausted, unless there is information that indicates that a further delay would represent an immediate risk to the assembled forces and organizations. And, I want to underscore that the United States should not categorize this action as preemptive. Preemptive—and that doctrine has nothing whatsoever to do with this problem. As Richard Perle so eloquently pointed out, this is a problem that is longstanding, it has been a decade in the making and needs to be dealt with and the clock is ticking on this.

Obviously, once initiated, a military operation should aim for the most respected accomplishment of its operational aims and prompt turnover to follow-on organizations and agencies.

And, I think if we proceed as outlined above, we may be able to minimize the disruption to the ongoing campaign against al Qaeda. We could reduce the impact on friendly governments in the region and even contribute to the resolution of other regional issues, perhaps such as the Arab-Israeli conflict, the Iranian efforts to develop nuclear capabilities, and Saudi funding for terrorism.

But, there are no guarantees. The war is unpredictable. It could be difficult and costly. And, what is at risk in the aftermath is an open-ended American ground commitment in Iraq and an even deeper sense of humiliation in the Arab world, which could intensify our problems in the region and elsewhere.


Page 22 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC
The yellow light is flashing. We have a problem. We have got to muster the best judgment in this country. We have to muster the will of the American people. And, we've got to be prepared to deal with this problem. But, time is on our side in the near term and we should use it. Thank you.

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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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jbuffett

Hmm. All I see is people questioning him for his initial support of the administration. As more facts came to the front (or lack there of) he changed his mind about supporting the process. Sounds like a thinker to me. Clark's got my vote. But hell, even Sharpton would be better than the resident. (shakes head, can't believe I just typed that, or believed it.)

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I do blame you for voting for Bush.

Sparhawk

I think this quote of his is especially telling of his position on the war:



He supported building as multilateral a coalition as possible to go in, and only go in unilaterally as a very last resort. He also said that "[force] should be used as the last resort after all diplomatic means have been exhausted."

Also, that wasn't the complete testimony, Lebell. That was just his opening statement. Clark and Richard Perle both answered questions for quite some time, until Clark had to leave to catch a plane at Reagan

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"In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work."

james t kirk

Don't worry.

Allot can happen between now and November 2004.

At this time in 91, people were writing off the democrats and everyone thought bush was going to win again (Who is this Clinton guy?)

We'll see.

Strange Famous

I think if they stood a stuffed shirt against Bush it would win, the democratic candidate is going to be president. I dont really know enough about them all to say who I'd back, but I hope Nader stands, he was the best candidate last time for sure.

Dean seems to be the most progressive of the possible next presidents to me, but like I said, I dont know enough to really back one person.

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Lebell

Oh, sorry.

I just didn't read far enough.

My bad.

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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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hlprmnky

Politics aside, have you ever seen/heard Nader speak? The public is never going to elect someone who looks and sounds like their crazy old uncle. Sorry.

Strange Famous

Well, they "elected" someone who speaks like Bush, someone who we are not actually 100% sure can read.

And whatever people think of the legality of the election, Bush did get a very high proportion of people's votes.

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"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Lebell

Look,

My personal politics completely aside, this post is pure wishful thinking.

Fine, you think Bush is stupid, to the point of doubting that he can even read. (I don't think you're serious about that last, but who knows.)

But anyone who CAN read a poll knows that the Dems are worried.

Many Dems I speak to don't think Dean can win and he's their best shot, IMO.

So while you may not like Bush, at least be realistic.

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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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hammer4all

There are good reasons not to support Clark, here is one of them.
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0117-01.htm

For more on the "School of the Americas," read the accompanying article, "School of Assassins."
http://www.commondreams.org/views03/1118-12.htm

That's right folks, a terrorist training camp in our own back yard whose graduates have been responsible for the killings of tens if not hundreds of thousands of South Americans...

Sparhawk

I've met more than a few latin american military officers, including some who have been to the school of the americas. My opinion, based on personal anecdotes, is that those who went to the school are better off than those who didn't - they spent their time there learning American values, officership, integrity, and a sense of professionalism - all things militaries down in latin america could use more of. Did some officers go there with false intentions? Sure - but by and large the school is a force for good.

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"In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work."

hammer4all

smooth_4

Despite any political or person flaws, you have to love Clark's TV ad explaining his position on Outkast.

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smooth_4

which can be found here:

http://www.rockthevote.com/multimedi....affl.150k.mov

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Sparhawk

That... is Hilarious.

__________________
"In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work."

mbchills

moore didnt just start supporting clarke, if you read his latest book, which was written before clarke even joined the democratic ballot, moore supported him there and then.

__________________
rawr.

hammer4all

Today, Moore was on Democracy Now! explaining why he is supporting Clark. They also get into the whole "School of the Americas" question... Maybe there is still hope for Clark changing his stance on the issue after all.

http://www.democracynow.org/article..../01/23/1622230

smooth_4

I have to agree with Jon Stewart's appraisal on this one. Clark is running a pretty centrist campaign, I'm not sure Moore's endorsement fits well with his strategy.

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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

-Aristotle

Tomservo

Gotta back up mbchills' response on this one.

Most folks seem to be either ignoring or ignorant to the fact that Moore was pushing for Clark to run in "Dude, Where's My Country?", which was obviously published long before Clark announced his official intention to run. If the Moore-haters would like to actually find out the reasons why, hop on down to Barnes and Noble.

That said, he was REALLY pushing Oprah. I wonder if he'd drop Clark for Oprah if she announced. Heh.

European Son

....Unlike Bush, who certainly inherits that brutal, overwhelming, larger-than-life chraisma...in a confused child-sort of way.

Oh man oh man a democratic media figure wants his party to win the election through various means. What a loser.

irony/
Did anyone mention that Moore is fat yet? Cuz you know, he is. Also he lied in a movie because he edited it and also gave it a message. These facts needs to be spread ASAP.
/irony

Lebell

I couldn't give two hoots if Moore is fat or skinny.

However, if you want to talk about the ultimate irony, we can rehash him getting an oscar for best documentary when BFC is anything but.

That however would be a threadjack + it's been done to death around here.

Do a search if you're interested.

Or you can check out the very well documented lies and hypocrisy of MM on www.moorewatch.com and www.bowlingfortruth.com .

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European Son

oh shi.....


Please dear sir, I promise not to mention Moore again, if you promise to halt your posting of lame websites regarding him.





But really, look at him....he is fat you know...

Lebell

Lame websites?

Feel free to start another thread and tell me how they are "lame".

I'll be more than happy to listen to your arguments.

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yellowgowild

Didn't Clark almost start WWIII by telling his men to take a base from the russians? Something one of my friends said....

matthew330

I heard this as well, but Matt, Clarks son seemed to offer some sort of explanation (long and drawn out). I can't remember what it was but it seemed reasonable enough.

Everything else he said was retarted though. If you think Clark isn't very compelling wait untill you hear his son talk. Their playing up that "innocent, haven't had the opportunity to be corrupted by politics" way too much. He looks a lot like his dad, and sounds identical to him, just slower (imagine Clark giving a speech after a few bong hits).

EbolaVirus

Michael Moore is a douche bag

debaser

No. Clarke was ordered by the Secretary General to block runways at the Pristina airport to prevent the Russians from landing troops, thus injecting themselves into the rather fluid Balkan conflict. He followed orders, his subordinate did not.

__________________

splck

I'll add to this well thought out post....

No he's not.

...Phew, that was tough.

__________________
nice line eh?

fnaqzna

This sort of argument baffles me. Clark was doing his job. He didn't make policy. He was an instrument of policy, a tool of government.

Maybe the Army is different, but in the Navy, officers are not encouraged to have opinions about policy. They do as they are told. They support the command, end of discussion.

Not that I care much for Clark. He's Johnny Bravo. The dems have him running simply because he "fits the suit".