John Rhys-Davies (Gimli in LoTR-movies) speaks about Isalm and other things.
 

Links: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1042278/posts
Full interview: http://promontoryartists.org/looking...heking-jrd.htm

Any thoughts on the matter?

I don't agree with him really, as I don't view Islam as the great threat ( http://www.islamonline.net/english/i...am/index.shtml )... I don't find it worse than any other religion really.

I don't think its Islam either, nor do I think he is talking about Islam. I think he is talking about militant Islam, and with that I would agree with him.

I think the Islamic culture and mindset is very dangerous is the parlance of our time. Much of the Islamic world is clinging on to there mudhut patriachly repressive society of the past, or in many cases they are going back to it through theocracy's and Shaa'ra (religious) law. There is some hope out there though, Iran is really surpising me in there lust for moderate legitimate democracy.

Islam : Islamic fundamentalists :: Christianity : KKK

Thank you, West Wing. Well, and the SAT.

I see a parallel in these rigid theocracies with their daily edicts and the christian coalition movement in the states. Jerry Falwell has more in common with, say, Saudi Arabian culture than he does with normal Americans.

That being said, I don't hold with many Americans fairly casually replacing "Communists" with "Muslims" as the bogeyman of the 21st Century.

What they said. I think that this is going to come to a head during our generation, and that even as he said, it may be our generation's largest and most important undertaking. I dont think that it will be the end of Western Civilization, but I do think that we will see some changes in the way our Western Civilizations operate.

Please elaborate. Sure the KKK is a bunch of bigots and worthless human beings, but I don't see them repressing woman, human rights, keeping the slave trade alive, flying planes into buildings, commiting suicide bombings, or being embroiled in the majority of the worlds conflicts.

Again your all to quick to just "throw" chrisitianity in there. Show me where anywhere on the planet they Christians anywhere are suscribing to/and or perpetuating the same evil as militant Islam. And again like the KKK Jerry Falwell might be a bigot and unagreeable, but I don't see him flying planes into buildings amongst a list of other atrocities.

The "principles" espoused by the KKK are similar to those of militant Islam. No racial mixing, misappropriation of religious beliefs that legitimize their agendas, power through intimidation, etc. The only thing that keeps the KKK in check are those who recognized it as a threat and worked to stamp out its influence. The KKK never had as broad a base as militant Islam. The KKK was able to control some local and possibly some state governments during desegregation, but certainly didn't have the resources that many militant islamist groups have.

Currently it's not happening but in the past, there was obviously a drive to instill Christian values in the "uncivilized" cultures of the world.

Jerry Falwell is far from an Osama Bin Laden. Anyone who doesn't see that is blind.

I don't believe anyone is "casually" filling the void left by the fall of the Soviet Union with radical islam. Not recognizing that there is a considerable number of people in the world with a common belief that western society goes against god and needs to be eliminated is a more egregious offense in my mind. For all your fear/criticism of the religious right and their beliefs, I would think you would be able to equate religious fanatacism wherever it was found. The militant islam belief which encourages and applauds giving your life in the fight against western society would be similar to a religious right belief that it's okay to kill yourself if you take some homosexual "sinners" with you. Both are abhorent to humanity.

I'm not "throwing" christianity in anywhere. I'm talking about a specific movement/organization - The Christian Coalition. Who, in my opinion, have more in common with the repressive culture of Saudi Arabia than they do with normal Christians in this country. And I don't believe I even mentioned anything about 'militant Islam', now did I?

And you're right, Jerry Falwell is a bigot and unagreeable, and I think he would feel right at home in Riyadh.

Yes, you are right. He is.

But, only because he is in the comfy position he is in. Falwell enjoys wealth, power, and influence in the worlds most powerful nation. He believes he is making progress in advancing the agendas of fundamentalist christian law being imposed in this country. Bin Laden is leader of a fring group who has no powerful government, and sees much of what he deems his religions empire slipping towards the values of the decadent west.

You switch their positions, Make Falwells Christian Coalition a small group that he primarially funds in a nation that ranks in the bottom of the barrel. Then have a secular, but primarially islamic nation (which is by far the most powerful in the world) exert influence and, at least in Jerry's mind, make progress towards converting his region towards the religion and values of Islam....
Falwell would easily be a mirror image of Our Osama.
While Bizarro Osama is a faith leader in his nation who now has the "luxury" of being able to just delegate 'missionary' work around the world and advancing sharia in his nation.

Ahh yes, of course. It must be nice to have the power to foresee how someone you probably have never even met would react in various situations.

Ooh I do have that ability, I believe. He's a psuedo-fundamentalist, intolerant man who follows his own manner of christianity to enrich himself rather than the world. The man craves power, and has it. That's the only difference between him and Osama, Jerry has the power.

And I guess this supposed power was bestowed upon him at birth. As far as I recall, he didn't have to blow up the WTC to gain it. As a matter of fact, I haven't heard a whisper of his plots to bring down the "heathens" of Islam around the world. I guess you can see that too, ehh?

Part of the power he commands, that doesn't require violence to achieve came with being a church leader in the most powerful nation in the world.

We did hear about how the "gays and feminists and abortionists and pagans?"

I bet Falwell would kill all of them if given the chance. I really do. He did after all call them all an abomination and the actual reason that the Trade Center was destroyed on 9/11. If he though he could get away with their slaughter to make the world a "better" place, I truly believe he would.

How did a thread about radical Islamists turn into a thread about right wing American Christians?

In any event, I agree that radical Islam is a serious threat to many cultures and freedoms.

Anyone who can't/won't recognize this and fight back will be swept away with the tide.

Right now I see too many in America that will be swept away. Unfortunately, if this happens, they will take the rest of us with them.

Interesting statistic: 75% of all third-generation male (muslim) immigrants get their brides from the original "country of origin" (their forefathers' origin, of course).

Why? Typically, because the girls that grew up here are too "western" in their outlook. The brides they bring in are usually easier to dominate.

Ooooh no bride domination!

Personally thats a pretty useless argument considering that its still much around the world and hardly limited to Islam - not to mention that it was quite common not all that very long ago in our own histories!

Right here! I pulled off a crazy threadjack with a single stolen analogy...and the help of my beloved political zealot brethren. :icare:

I did it to fight the constant shit about Islam being evil. Islam is fine. Fundamentalism, radicalism, whatever you want to call it; subverting a religion for the purpose of advancing a political or social agenda is the threat.

Which the Arab/Islamic culture is all about, which the people suscribe too. It isn't about just fundamentalists perpetuating these attacks, its about the mindset and beliefs of the people that consider them martyr's and hereos.

Are you Arab? Are you Islamic?

If not I would like to extend my apologies for claiming others are a thing when they aren't.

If you think the minority being reported is the majority, then you yourself have bought into what the terrorists want - to give them the attention they crave for their cause.

You can keep your heads in the sand for a while boys, but I think hes right.

It's not the "getting brides from abroad" in general that's the problem. It's the "don't want western girls" that's the problem. They don't want to marry girls from the same ethnic background that grew up here, simply because they're too liberal. It means these people do not want to join the general Dutch culture, and want to stay a seperate group.

OTOH, it leaves more of those exotic cuties for us natives... :D

{sarcasm}Ustwo, your support of Mojo has served its purpose. My head is out of the sand. I see clearly now. {/sarcasm}
The people who consider the terrorists martyrs and heros don't consider them such because of their belief in Allah. If that were so, ALL Muslims would hail the attacks and consider them God's will. As this is clearly NOT the case, I would humbly submit that you are allowing ignorance and prejudice to blind you.

I would disagree. I would humbly submit that you are living in a politically correct world where we all hold hands lovingly and cuddle with fuzzy little bunnies. Go to Saudi Arabia, home to the most important shrines in Islam. It is here where 26+ million people are indoctrinated with hate against the west and Israel. It's here where 15 of 17 hijackers are national hereos. Go to Palestine where Palestinian suicide bombers are given a heroes burial. Sudan a country that is in a brutal civil war, a country where 2+ million have died, where christians are today still taken as slaves. Iran a brutal regime claiming to be a religious regime, shiite btw a non-hardline sect like the wahabi's of Saud, kills and arrests dissedents, a country that espouses the belief that America and the culture of the west is that of the "great satan". Afganistan, a country that welcomed a brutal and repressive regime like the taliban, that today they are fighting to bring back. Pakistan again a country filed with some of the most anti-American muslims on the face of the planet, a country that itself is trying to help bring back the taliban. Indonesia another theocratic Islamic nation, the biggest such nation in the world, declared a fatwa of jihad against the west sometime thereafter 9/11 (can't recall if it was in response to afganistan or Iraq). A country that has a great many school of "militant" Islam and Wahab indoctrinating its youth with "Jihad" against the infidels.

BTW I never said that all muslims hail these clowns as heroes or martyrs, all I said was that their cultures and mentalities are detrimmental in the parlence of our time, they fighting to cling on to an outdated,ugly, and vicious way of living.

How many arabs/muslims do you know?

How many do you know?

I’m sorry Kadath but you couldn’t be more wrong. We all saw the people dancing in the streets of Egypt and in Palestinian areas after 9/11, that is before their governments/police got them to stop for fear of those images reaching the United States. Arab culture teaches hate, period. This is where you find your ‘ignorance and prejudice’, not in my eyes. I don’t care what the Qur’an SAYS its what people DO that matters. Until the Arab world gets itself out of the 15th century, and has some tolerance and understanding for other cultures they can not expect us to be tolerant and understanding of theirs.

I am not alone in this feeling, and many Arab scholars have the same concerns. Even the UN reports state that the Arab world has fallen behind and is in danger of becoming even more backward. I give you a synopsis of the Arab Human Development Report. This was written by Arabs for the UN, its not some Western think tank, or the like.

When you think of who wrote this, and for what body, its message is quite apparent behind the political language.

Now for some quotes from the full report.

It goes on and on and on, and I’m sure would be very good reading for you, it might help you see past your ignorance and prejudice and understand the problems faced by the Arab world.

Edit: LINK

I grew up in a 50/50-area, and we had a few hundred people from Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, Syria etc in my school, so quite a few.

So they were here in America, in our culture?

No, in Sweden, Europe.

I agree with your second sentance.

But, any belief system that believes others have no right to have a say is a danger to democracy.

Religion provides a framework for someone to say "I'm right, and anyone who disagrees with me deserves to die." It has been used that way in Europe, with the Pope-kings of the dark ages and the God-Emperors of the romans, and it is being used that way in the middle east right now.

Thanks.

Now imagine if the KKK (or an equivilent organization) took over a western democracy, say Germany. Imagine that happend about 50 years ago, and it caused the bloodiest war in human history.

That's mainly because the KKK is weaker than Islamic Fundies. Don't you think they'd like to have a slave traid, repress women (some of them), etc?

Germany, circa WW2.

Or it means that it takes time for people to integrate?

Sheesh, http://www.nomarriage.com/ is a bunch of mysogynists who agree with them. Does that make them "un-western"? Maybe. =)

If you want to use historical instances, you would have been better off with the Spanish Inquisition (Here, I'll say it for you smart alecks, "No one escapes the Spanish Inquisition!!") than with WW2 Germany.

Hitler's Germany was not Christologically driven, it was driven on a cult worship of Hitler. At worst, some denominations/clerics kept silent about Nazi horrors, while others, like Dietrich Bonhoeffer were shot for their unflinching opposition.


*edited cause I kant spel

Hitler's Germany was not a matter of Christianity. It was a matter of insane nationalism and racial superiority. Hitler might've been born a christian, it doesn't mean that he was one when he went nuts. He was into the occult and Norse Mythology. Not to mention the fact that he went just as hard on the Poles who were Catholic as he did on the Jews.

The Inquisition is by far better (damn you beat me to the line !) than Germany - as stated above, it was far more racial based than anything. Lieberstram, the Aryan race, etc.

The Spanish Inquisition started in 1478. I find this being the 15th century very ironic based on my post.

i don't have much to say on this subject as i can believe all men are capable of equally beautiful and horrendous actions..

anyway, this is from a joke list
in case you might think of Iraq as "only" an oil rich nation, ruled by an evil dictator for 30 years, whether it has been supporting terrorists or may not be very important, here are a few important facts regarding the important history and roles that this nation has played down through history....

1. The Garden of Eden was in Iraq. (it sure doesn't look much like Paradise on earth today thanks to Saddam)

2. Mesopotamia which is now Iraq was the cradle of civilization!

3. Noah built the ark in Iraq.

4. The Tower of Babel was in Iraq.

5. Abraham was from Ur, which is in Southern Iraq!

6. Isaac's wife Rebekah is from Nahor which is in Iraq.

7. Jacob met Rachel in Iraq.

8. Jonah preached in Nineveh - which is in Iraq.

9. Assyria which is in Iraq conquered the ten tribes of Israel.

10. Amos cried out in Iraq!

11. Belshazzar, the King of Babylon saw the "writing on the wall" in Iraq. (Hey, This One Saddam finally did too!)

BTW up here in Minnesota we don't have to many Arabs. We do however have many Somalians which are a perfect example of horrendous Muslim Warlord culture. Thousands of refugee's have flooded this state from Somalia. Being the age of 19 I have no problem with those of the older age, they are hard working and cause me no trouble. I do however have a problem with the kids who have caused both me and my friends nothing but drama.

So the only other thing I have to say on this subject is that apparently some people around here are unable to distinguish between the words Muslim and Arab. This is the first time I have used the word "Arab" in this thread. I am not disagreeing that the culture in the Middle East is often one of violence. I am arguing against the idea that the religion is what causes this mindset and the idea that we can lump all Muslims togther as terrorists. That is bigotry. That is ignorance.

Edited for flames. I'm gone.

As a Muslim man, I can tell you that this happens more often because the parents demand it than for any other reason, and also because the parents often arrange it themselves, and also because it helps keep immigration flowing (the brides can get citizenship).

In addition, this statistic is highly skewed because most immigrants who come to the West alone are men. Therefore there is a disproportionate amount of men (of their ethnicity) and they must get brides from back home rather than their new country.

Saudia Arabia may be nominally an Islamic country but it is not an Islamic government. It is a monarchy, not a caliphate. Its culture is as much tied to the pre-Islamic Arab era as to Islamic teaching itself. And the "indoctrinated" people who side with Osama bin Laden also hate their own government, which they do not recognize as legitimate.

My life is outdated, ugly, and vicious? (edit)

Okay at first I flamed you for your ignorant and offensive statement, but I thought I could do better than that.

Look, I'm not a very religious person myself... you could say that I'm struggling with religion. Now I go to a catholic university, and the jesuit priests i've met here are some of the most amazing people I've seen. their conviction, their integrity, their wisdom, all stems from the strength of their faith, their godly way of life.

I have been around Muslims all my life. Correctly practiced, it can (just like Catholicism) be a beautiful way of life, like any other religion. It can add balance and peace to families and communities. It can make people humble and generous.

So STOP stereotyping an entire faith based on the actions of a few twisted people.



That said, I do believe that a conflict between the world (not just "The West") and militant, intolerant Islam is inevitable and necessary. And I will be on the right side, as will every true Muslim I know.

You know what? I think that an ignorant secularist could say the exact same thing about catholicism and be just about as accurate as you are. How long did catholicism enable pedophiles? I don't want to get in some kind of catholicism v. islam discussion because that would be pointless. Just trying to point out that if someone was talking about catholicism the way you are about islam, that is in general and onesided mischaracterizations, you'd be all over them. Don't pretend your shit don't stink.


As for minnesota somalians:
I don't tink you can attribute "causing drama" to the fact that these kids are somalian or muslim. It is probably more a function of being a refugee from a country ravaged by armed conflict. It is that simple. Muslim or not. How easy would it be for catholic refugees from las favelas in sao paulo, brazil to integrate into american culture? Would you then attribute their "causing of drama" to their catholicism?

False the Saud family has a long stemming pack with the Wahabi natives. Wahabism is the only brand of Islam allowed in the country. I don't know what nominally means, but if them being forced to go the mosque 5 times a day or face penalties is not a sign of how hardcore they are, I don't know what is.

You sound like a half way decent guy, and I'm sorry if I caused any personal offense. But I'm sticking by what I said, The Arab-Muslim culture is dominated by people who do anything to keep others down, if its not tribal leaders and warfare in afganistan and Pakistan, its theocracy's and shaaria law Iran, Saudia Arabia, Indonesia, Afganistan, Kuwait, Uzbekistan, Nigeria, Sudan. And again like I said, I never knocked all the people, all I said was the culture and religion was all to easy to enable them.

As far as Filtherton's pedophile comment, sure someone could say it, doesn't mean that it would hold any water. Pedophilia in the church is horrible, but that comes down to a bunch of psychologically sick fucks, and is perhaps more a testament to our culture here in America rather then the church, kinda funny how even though there were so many priest pedophiles in the church that it was still lower percentage then that of the regular population though eh?

I mean I also suppose if we want to talk about secularists doing stupid shit we could talk about Saddam or even Stalin. In russia if you didn't buy into the Soviet heroes you were shipped to the gulags, or if you tried to practice your choice brand of Islam in Iraq you were detained, beaten, and possible killed.

Your arguement about the refugee catholics has some merit I'll admit. But again the culture and raising of said somalians holds water too, they are nothing but a bunch of common street thugs, and I can't say that about all of them, but every experience I've had with Somalia's has either turned violent or I left before it could, and it has happened many a times.

Not a good comparision.

A (corrupt, in my mind) hierarchy enabled pedophiles in the Catholic church, but never in my years of going to them did I hear the priest stand up and say that pedophilea was good or that we should go practice it.

Unfortunately, there are Mullahs that preach the murder of innocents every day in the Muslim world.

Secular Catholics raised a firestorm of protest that has forced the Church into major changes in the way it approaches priest pedophilea.

Occasionally you read or hear about a Muslim group (usually) in the Western countries that denounces Muslim radicals. And you can read about praise of such radicals that same day (usually in the East or on Western Muslim BBS's).

hiredgun, I was talking about *third-generation* immigrants. I.e. kids of kids of immigrants. There should be some 50% women in this group, but apparently these aren't good enough. Whether that is because of the parents or the kids is pretty much irrelevant IMHO.

Mojo, Lebell,
You got me. Bad comparison. My apologies.
I was trying to make the point that Islam is not the problem. You can infer whatever you like from the actions of some muslims, but you must also be aware that, all things being relative, any atrocity that can be attributed to muslims has at the very least a comparable atrocity that can be attributed to christians. Neither religion is fundamentally flawed(unless you're an atheist). At times they just happen to be misappropriated by dysfunctional people with ulterior motives.

And as long as we are confusing arabs and muslims maybe this will shed some light:
http://www.iiie.net/Intl/PopStats.html

Sorry if it is difficult to read. If you have problems the link is right there.

There are 1.5 billion muslims in the world. How many aren't arabs? Feel free to figure that out for youself, i'm too lazy.
How many of these muslims have no problem with america and our freedom?

Once again to point out to people - Arab does not equal Islamic. Not to mention that many people Islamic hate to be labeled Arab.

I have a couple Persian friends... They *hate* it...

Your source might not be correct.

Your source:
My source:
http://www.faqs.org/docs/factbook/geos/sw.html

It's mistakes like that that makes me doubt things ;)

Arab-Islamic culture fosters militant Islamic cultures across the globe, especially in Africa and SE Asia. So whats a good term for it? Most of the left doesn't seem to like Islamofacist, so give us a term for these throw backs so we can get back to talking about issues over semantics.

I bet it is still accurate enough to support the argument that most muslims aren't arabs. Which was the reason i posted it, but if you have better worldwide figures by all means, post away.


Was timothy mcveigh a christofascist? How about the branch davidians? If it is only a matter of semantics perhaps we could call them 15th century catholicism-ists, that is, if we aren't going to worry about being too pc.
-or-
You could call them terrorists and leave it at that. Seems pretty accurate, doesn't imply nasty things about a huge group of people, many of whom wouldn't lift a finger to harm america.

Were Timothy Mcveigh's actions and motivations of a religious nature? No the man was a lone wolf racist who hated the federal government. Davidians? Not sure whom they are, if your referring to the nuts from Waco, well thats just a horrible attempt at trying to paint christians anywhere near the ballpark of Islamofacists.

Filtherton why do you always insist on throwing horribly unrelated and off base cases of would be christian wrong doing? Is it an attempt at trying to justify the actions taken in Islam (in the context) of this thread? I might even in certain cases concede points of christians doing insane things i.e. abortion clinics. But, again, in the context of this thread they are NO WHERE near the level of anything that is going in in the Islamic world, yet you latch on to a few minute examples and have no response to any of the clear points that show these horrible trends in Islam... whats your deal?

Yes, i'm a "christaphobe," i am frightened of jesus christ. :rolleyes:
My christophobia?? LOL that's rich.
Perhaps if you had read some of my posts in the philosophy forum you might see that i have attempted to defend certain aspects of christianity from some of the more outspoken athiests on the tfp. I shouldn't even have to address this with you though, since you obviously have no idea what i am about when it comes to religion you have no grounds to make such claims. Sometimes i have to remind myself that grown-ups don't need to use name-calling in their arguments. Perhaps that is a good lesson for all of us.


I'm pretty sure the branch davidians were suffering from a twisted form of chistianity. While obl is no david koresh, he is no mohammed either.

As for mcveigh... He comitted his act of terrorism on the two year aniversary of the massacre at the branch davidian compound. He also had ties to the christian identity movement. The christain identity is "based" on some crazy ass interpretations of the words of jesus christ. They believe that nonwhites are soulless "mud-people". It appears chritianity can be missapropriated too. Maybe this is the christ you were refering to when you called me a "christaphobe".
Maybe i am just being clumsy in all this though.
My point is that you cannot infer the motivations of an entire group of people by the actions of a minority of that group of people. How hard is that to understand?
In comparing islam with christianity i was attempting, apparently misguidedly so, to help you to see the this issue from my perspective in terms which are already familiar to you. That is to say, christianty seems to have a lot in common with islam. There are many christians who are horrible people who do horrible things. Sometimes these people base their actions on misinterpretations of christianity. This doesn't mean that christianity is the root cause of these people's actions. There also are many muslims who do disgusting things in the name of islam who are actually just really fucked up people using islam to attach an air of authority to their misguided power-grabs/need to feel important. These people probably do think they are righteous just as david koresh thought he was righteous, or the church during the spanish inquisition. This doens't mean that islam or christianity are inherently evil, just that its followers are human with human flaws.