Canadian Alliance & Progressive Conservatives merge

[obelix]

Link: http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2003/12/06/tories_vote031206

OTTAWA - Progressive Conservative delegates voted Saturday to unite the right by merging their party with the Canadian Alliance so they can challenge the governing Liberals together.

"With this overwhelming vote, we have just become Paul Martin's worst nightmare," said Tory Leader Peter MacKay. Martin is the Liberal leader.

Just over 90 per cent of the 2,486 Tory delegates at the "virtual convention" said "yes" to creating a new combined party to be called the Conservative Party of Canada.

A majority of the votes in each riding committed the riding's full delegation to vote for or against the merger.

The delegates voted simultaneously in 26 cities. The process was dubbed a virtual convention.


Peter MacKay votes with supporters in Ottawa (CP photo)

Alliance members voted almost 96 per cent in favour of the merger on Friday.

MacKay told delegates the merger was needed to end a decade of vote-splitting among conservatives that has helped the Liberals win the last three elections.

Conservatives are frustrated "because there's no one to vote for who can beat (the Liberals)," said former Conservative finance minister Mike Wilson.

But another former cabinet minister, Flora MacDonald, argued against the merger. She said the views expressed by some Alliance members on issues such as women's rights, immigration and bilingualism are not compatible with those of the Tory party.

"You will not be able to wish away these contradictions, or gloss over them," MacDonald said. "You are trying to create a party with no policy and no higher purpose than opportunism."

Tory MP Scott Brison, who ran for the party leadership against MacKay last summer, said he had increasing doubts the new party would reflect his values or those of Canadians.

MacKay, however, was enthusiastic. "Finally, after 10 years, the Liberal Party of Canada will be facing a united, strong conservative family in the next federal general election."

Together, the Tories and Alliance MPs hold 78 seats in the House of Commons, compared to 170 for the Liberals.

But some of the 15 sitting Tory MPs say they will sit as independents, rather than join the new entity. "I cannot sit with the new party," said former prime minister Joe Clark.http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2003/12/06/tories_vote031206

This is some major Canadian political news, which could have profound impacts on the power of the opposition in the country. Although I havnt been following politics too much in the past year or so, this still caught my eye and got me interested again.

[OFKU0]

I wish them the best of luck but without a leader who can pull Ontario and Quebec under the same umbrella they don't have much of a chance.

Unfortunately this will probably mean another french leader at the helm to continue pandering to Quebec since they are the spoiled children of Canada who use threats and blackmail to retain their position as the most important people in the country.

People will wait to see if Paul Martin can reverse the damage cause by Chretien's pathetic 10 year reign. If billions and billions and billions of dollars continue to be wasted and the complacent Canada sheep,..err,..people come out of there comatose state, the new merged party has a chance. But probably not for several years.

[Yakk]

The liberals managed to get a majority government without the backing of Quebec.

It can be done. /shrug.

[james t kirk]

Paul Martin will destroy anyone who runs against him.

It's better for Canada to have a united right otherwise the Liberals will get fat and lazy (they already are) and take their election for granted every time.

In this way, there will be some real competition for them.

There may come a day when the conservative party gets elected, but it won't be next election.

The problem is going to be that the party will be pulled to the right SOCIALLY by the reform wing of the party. Ontario will never go for this. Until the new party stabilizes I think most people will take a wait and see approach.

You can thank Mulroney that any of this even happened.

[OFKU0]

Originally posted by james t kirk


You can thank Mulroney that any of this even happened.

Funny thing is that Chretien makes Mulroney look like a Rhodes scholar in comparison. I'm no fan of Mulroney but Chretien is even dumber than Sheilla Copps.

The promise of scrapping free trade and the gst is what propelled the Liberals to become debt free,...not from the Mulroney government but back to Trudeau who fucked things up fiscally in the first place.

And Yakk are you serious.There are more ridings for Liberals than the Bloc in Quebec. Find me one Conservative riding in Quebec.If it weren't for the Liberals in Quebec,at best the Federal Liberals would have a minority government.

[Bob Biter]

Originally posted by OFKU0
Unfortunately this will probably mean another french leader at the helm to continue pandering to Quebec since they are the spoiled children of Canada who use threats and blackmail to retain their position as the most important people in the country.

While I agree with you that the Tories hold little to no sway in Quebec, which is either Liberal or Bloc, I fail to understand how that makes the province "spoiled". What are those threats you speak of? If you mean the referendums, that's pretty groundless. If it didn't work when Levesque was in power, then it never will. Even though the vote was split in 1995, if the "Yes" side had reaped 51%, I still believe full separation would not have taken place. Seperatism is now a boring topic in Quebec.

As for the unification of the Tories and Alliance, I can't wait to see how long it takes before they realize how much patching up they have to do before presenting a unified front to the Liberals. Some members are already becoming independents! Liberals will just have to sit back and poke holes in their policies while they win yet another election.

[OFKU0]

Originally posted by Bob Biter
While I agree with you that the Tories hold little to no sway in Quebec, which is either Liberal or Bloc, I fail to understand how that makes the province "spoiled". What are those threats you speak of? If you mean the referendums, that's pretty groundless. If it didn't work when Levesque was in power, then it never will. Even though the vote was split in 1995, if the "Yes" side had reaped 51%, I still believe full separation would not have taken place. Seperatism is now a boring topic in Quebec.

Do you know how many multimillion dollar grants are made available to Quebec every year to stop them from screaming seperation at ever chance? Go to the Access of Information Act. You will be astounded. And people wonder why the west is pissed off and have been for 35 years.

Did you know that a yearly 100 million dollar fund was set up in 1997 to promote Canadian francophone events for those whose applications were accepted? Hmmm,..wanna guess how much is spent on multicultural events? That means all of Canada, coast to coast to coast. Did you know that the offices were set up in Quebec? Did you know that since 1997 every last cent of money, 100 million a year, except for 2%, was spent in Quebec( the other 2% was spent in New Brunswick).

Since Trudeau inflicted the Bilingualism Act in Canada in the late 60's, approximately 40 billion dollars has gone to appease Quebec. Funny thing about it is that attrition rates are rising every year because the French are choosing to speak English yet Ottawa continues to throw more money at them to shut them up.

Ever wonder why an English speaking person with no ties to Quebec will never become Prime Minister. Because the gravy train to Quebec will end with that person telling them to piss off. Quebec knows it can never survive without Canada.Did you ever read the numerous demands Quebec wants if succesion were to occur? Basically they wanted to do as they please,trade with the U.S,not be taxed as every other province is yet want to continue receiving the benefits it does today.

If I had more time and interest I could go on forever. Incidentally at the time of the '95 referendum, the then to become premier Lucien Bouchard wasn't interested in seperation.As a matter of fact at a later date he admitted it would have been suicide for Quebec. The reason was to put Quebec front and center and in line for the bucks.I'll try and remember the deal that was made.I know it gave Quebec lots of money and the guarantee of more.Perhaps those in the west might recall.

[james t kirk]

Originally posted by OFKU0

Since Trudeau inflicted the Bilingualism Act in Canada in the late 60's, approximately 40 billion dollars has gone to appease Quebec. Funny thing about it is that attrition rates are rising every year because the French are choosing to speak English yet Ottawa continues to throw more money at them to shut them up.

Give it a rest buddy.

Bilingualism is a fact of life in Canada. It's not going to change, it's not going to go away. It's bottom line is a good thing. Bilingualism has brought Canadians closer together as a country. (Though i am sure you don't think so.) The fact of the matter is that there are 11 million francophones in Canada so if bilingualism makes them feel a part of this country than that's the way it goes.

I firmly believe that if the policies of Trudeau had none come to be (motivated by Levesque) then Quebec would have separated a long time ago and Canada would be the worse for it. It's ironic that through Levesque's action steps were taken by the rest of Canada to prevent separation.

It's about equality, and equal rights and sometimes that costs money but the amount invested in such ideas is small in comparison to what it could cost you if you didn't invest.

It's called the big picture.

[prosequence]

Originally posted by james t kirk
The fact of the matter is that there are 11 million francophones in Canada so if bilingualism makes them feel a part of this country than that's the way it goes.

Hmm, gonna have to check on this "FACT"... hard to believe that 1 in 3 Candians are Francophone..... that would make one in every three people I meet Francophone.... Lets hope that the Oriental community (within 5% population ratio) doesn't want to preserve it's language... my taxes cant hack anymore.

[Bob Biter]

OFKUO, I understand that Quebec receives a lot of federal funds every year because of its population and culture, but to think that this is merely to "appease" the populace is to confuse damage control and cultural development. As james t kirk said, Canada is a bilingual country. As such it's in its best interest to promote such a state. The fact that the majority of the francophone population is in Quebec explains why that province receives the lion's share of funds of that nature.

Also, I fail to understand why you describe francophones learning English as "attrition". Quebecers receive formal English education starting in grade school, but are by no means forced to speak it outside of said classes. However, just like it's in the government's best interest to invest in bilingualism, so it is in Quebecers' best interest to learn both official languages to make them more rounded individuals that have more to offer on the job market.

I'm a French-Canadian from Quebec and I chose to learn English not as an act of giving up to any situation, but because I know it's a valued skill to have. I still value my cultural roots just as deeply. I also love my country and have no desire to separate from it. Furthermore, to think that those who only speak French are hardcore separatists is also false and misguided. The whole separation issue got garbled from its original beef brought to the fore during the "Night of Long Knives" into a purely linguistic issue. Quebecers with an ounce of common sense know that being a part of a great country like Canada is a good thing and know as you seem to know as well that secession would have been a veritable quagmire. So please, stop with the angst about the illusion that all Quebecers want to do is separate and that all federal grants heading their way is just a means to "appease" that.

Since this thread is getting sidetracked from its original idea, I'll say nothing more about that.

As I said before, the Tories and Alliance are going to have to work overtime to overhaul their policies to offer a unified front against the Liberals. Whether such a reformed party would resemble anything like Mulroney's gang is left to be seen, but I sure hope it doesn't. If indeed they pose a genuine threat to Paul Martin, I will be glad to finally see some real competition and debates at election time.

[prosequence]

Canada is not bilingual.

I hope that the new party keeps some backbone, not comeout with a platform that says "place name here cause the content is the same shit", I get tired of watching parties with no backbone sitting on the fence... come on, it's start to hurt after a while. Who cares if you piss people off, it makes for more honest poitics.

[splck]

Canada is officially bilingual, but hardly a bilingual country. Trudeau makes my skin crawl. I have family in Ontario that think his policies were the best thing since sliced bread, God only knows why. I guess this is the difference of opinion that makes this country great.
As for the merger, I hope they become enough of a force to get rid of the Libs just as I wanted the Tories booted out ten years ago. I think that any time a party has power for too long they become arrogant idiots, just as the Libs are now.

[OFKU0]

Originally posted by Bob Biter


Also, I fail to understand why you describe francophones learning English as "attrition".

First of all I am not anti-french.It is more the motives of politicians that bother me and people who refuse to see the big picture because they are waving a unity flag.

The point with attrition is that French speaking Quebecers through concensus polls are losing their French and are choosing to speak English. Some may say,big deal let them speak what they want. The point is that so much money is being put forth for the French to protect their language and culture but in the end the opposite is happening. Why should every Canadian be on the hook for trying to save a language and culture when said culture isn't trying to preserve it for themselves.Does any other ethic or cultural group in Canada receive vast sums of money for retaining their language and culture?

I believe in equality and equal rights also. I believe the western farmers are owed there due as much as those in the fishing industry on either coast. I believe every Canadian should be treated fairly right across the board.

Does the success of a merged Alliance/Conservative party depend at all on what those in Quebec think. You better believe it. Some think the best chance for a leader to square up to Paul Martin was former Ontario premier Mike Harris. Mike Harris dropped out because he didn't have a hope in hell of winning Quebec even after he promised to learn French. I would like to also see some great debates with the candidates come election time but honestly I think the process is moot.

[Bob Biter]

I suppose it all depends on the demographics and location. Obviously, francophones living in southern Quebec (Montreal, Hull, etc.) have a higher interest to learn English than those living in the Saguenay or Quebec region. However, to learn a language does not necessarily mean losing the other, unless you're talking about francophone parents choosing to send their children to English schools, which is a challenge in itself because of law 101. In my opinion, seeing as there are other francophones throughout the country that are able to maintain their roots, it would take a lot to significantly alter the current situation in Quebec. Even though I agree that lowering the amount of money dedicated to the "protection" of French culture would not have a great impact, and therefore could be done, comparing these funds to those allotted to fisheries and farms seems out of context. Nonetheless, I believe the big brouhaha about fervent separatism has finally run its course, in the sense that it will no longer garner national attention as did the referendums.

Sadly, you are right about the Quebec vote. As with the referendums, everything is rooted too deeply in language. I would love to see a non-francophone/non-Quebec tied premier who would be balanced enough to hear everyone out, but I suppose it's just a pipe dream.

[james t kirk]

Originally posted by OFKU0
First of all I am not anti-french.It is more the motives of politicians that bother me and people who refuse to see the big picture because they are waving a unity flag.

You come across as very antifrench my friend. Very antifrench.

I used to think like you.

Then i spent ALOT of time in Quebec working there (and NB, NS, ONT, ALTA, and NWT) but mainly in Quebec. I have come to realize that your average Quebecer does not desire anything more than you or I. They are a pretty cool lot and I have probably been there 100 times now on work, usually 2 weeks at a time. When I first went there, I expected the Quebecers to eat me alive. Nothing could be further from the truth.

My one criticism of Quebecers is that they need to travel outside of Quebec more to realize that the rest of the country is ok too.

Same goes to you... You need to travel.

Originally posted by OFKU0
The point with attrition is that French speaking Quebecers through concensus polls are losing their French and are choosing to speak English.

Quebecers are not loosing their French at all, trust me. French is alive and well in Quebec and always will be. Just as Bob says, some Quebecers choose to learn english and that's a good thing. I studied French in high school rather half heartedly. I thought that i would never use it and wanted to drop it half way through high school but the principal wouldn't let me. How ironic that i use french all the time now and actually ended up going to U of T at nights to learn even more.

If you think that English is replacing French, just take a trip anywhere east of Trois Rivieres.

Originally posted by OFKU0
Some may say,big deal let them speak what they want. The point is that so much money is being put forth for the French to protect their language and culture but in the end the opposite is happening. Why should every Canadian be on the hook for trying to save a language and culture when said culture isn't trying to preserve it for themselves.Does any other ethic or cultural group in Canada receive vast sums of money for retaining their language and culture?

I am aware that Federal dollars go into preserving Quebec culture, you are correct there. But federal dollars also go into promoting culture in Vancouver, Edmonton and all over the country.

Originally posted by OFKU0
I believe in equality and equal rights also. I believe the western farmers are owed there due as much as those in the fishing industry on either coast. I believe every Canadian should be treated fairly right across the board.

Everyone in this country feels hard done by.

You talk to the fisherman on the east coast and they think that all the federal money is going to the western farmers. Seriously.

The bottom line would be why should the federal gov't subsidize either of the them?

The eastern fishermen have destroyed their own industry by fishing it into oblivion. The western farmers don't want to leave the farm and over production has driven prices down.

First law of economics - Supply and Demand is inversely proportional. There is so much supply that prices are low. Who is to blame for that? The farmers like to blame the gov't (as do the fishermen)

The truth of the matter ist that they are both responsible for their own mess and it's time that they face up to that.

There is only so much profit to be made in an industry. We need less farmers period, then the ones who survive would make enough profit, they wouldn't need gov't subsidies.

[Ustwo]

Back in school I had 2 profs in the same department from Canada, only they didn't know that the other was Canadian.

So they were talking and somehow being Canadian comes up and the other says, "I'm Canadian too".

Well the first one instantly started to speak to him in French, and the other just looked at him and waited for him to stop and said, "Sorry I'm not French Canadian". The look he got from the French speaker was priceless

[OFKU0]

Originally posted by james t kirk
You come across as very antifrench my friend. Very antifrench.

I used to think like you.

My one criticism of Quebecers is that they need to travel outside of Quebec more to realize that the rest of the country is ok too.

Same goes to you... You need to travel.


The eastern fishermen have destroyed their own industry by fishing it into oblivion. The western farmers don't want to leave the farm and over production has driven prices down.

Oh come on now,kisses all around

Travel Canada.I've been back and forth more times than I can remember and have lived in Alberta,Saskatchewan,Manitoba and Nova Scotia.

Your right about the Fisheries industry and I don't want the American folk to jump all over me but they had a big hand in the depleted supply as well.As far as I know,fish don't know international boundary lines.

The farmers also have internal problems in their industry but overcoming years of drought takes it toll.

Anti-french? No. Overwhelmed at times? Most likely. I think that is part and parcel considering my view of Parliament Hill that I see every morning from my bedroom window. Then I read the morning paper.

[OFKU0]

By the way,anyone care that Joe Clark isn't joining the merged party?

[splck]

Joe who?

[silent_jay]

the new party is doomed to be destroyed by infighting. about the only intewresting thing is going to be watching who becomes leader. Joe Clark is kinda out because it will be hard for the oldtimers to merge ideas with these people who they have argued against

[tokaok]

im am very happy this is taking place,
i truly believe a stron large opposition is needed.

tho i believe the liberal party is taking us to the right destination, we should always have some one of some what strength to point out where they mistep along the way so that they can take a moment to regain their balance.

a goverment with out good opposition will blindingly run to reach their goals(which i support) but trip, fall, die, out of hubris.

[Charlatan]

The Conservative Party of Canada is doomed unless they can get a new leader. If Stephen Harper becomes the leader you can forget about the Ontario vote yet again.

As someone pointed out above it isn't the economic conservatism that is going to hurt them but the social conservatism. The PC supporters I know (Ontario based) have all sworn they would never vote Reform/Alliance. From those I have spoken to so far they just see this merger as a take over.

They feel their party has been taken from them.

[silent_jay]

the PC are definitly getting the short end of the stick because they seem like the one's who want the merger more than the Alliance. even though both parties shoyld be looking at this as an oppertunity to take over from the Liberals, something I (a liberal) would never want to see happen. My town always seems to do the opposite of what the rest of the province does, the PC are in power and we have a Liberal MPP, now the Liberals are in power and we have a PC MPP. the Liberals are in charge in federal politics, and we have an Alliance MP.