A discussion about war gone bad

[wilbjammin]

I went to a party last night and I saw my friend from high school that I haven't seen in years. He joined the National Guard and someone came up to him and started harassing him about national politics of war, about killing people, and was pretty rude about it all. I sat back and listened to my friend defend himself, saying some fairly sophisticated arguments like "I can lay down and protest here in Eugene, but doesn't real change come from within?" and "Well, now that we're in Iraq we can't just leave them because that would totally destabalize the Middle East and leave it much worse than we found it" The guy that harassed him continued to question my friends morals and ethics, and finally I said, "what do you suggest then? what are you doing about it? what is your opinion?"

He folded, he claimed that he didn't have an opinion, and quickly left our discussion to go to another part of the party. He kept looking at me and talking to his friend under his breath for the rest of the night, probably talking about me and how I attacked him. I actually genuinely wanted to hear an answer from him, I was surprised at how fast he backtracked.

I guess my question is - what do you all think? Is it fair to ask someone what they're doing about a problem that they have with something if they're harassing someone else about it? Is action necessary to go with a philosophy about politics if you are going to challenge someone else about their choices? Have you dealt with this before... and if so, how?

I'm not for war (and esp. this war), and neither is my friend. I just find it in poor taste to harass people who did not make the decisions to go to war. It occurred to me that the big push to the Vietnam War protests was to bring our men home (symbolized by those black armbands), but the big push against this war is the international implications of occupation and taking oil. Maybe we should focus more on the people over there and wanting them to come home alive and whole. I think we should remember that the people we send over to Iraq didn't make the policy, and if we have a problem with the policy we should do something about that policy.

So... there are some opinions, discuss:

[Lebell]

A couple of things came to mind reading that.

First, your friend as a member of the National Guard, has no say in where he goes or what he does. So long as his orders do not violate military law or the constitution, he has to obey.

So to call him out for that is unfair.

Second, it is very fair to ask anyone who is critical of x what they are doing to fix/solve/answer x. In otherwords, criticism is easy, solutions are hard, good solutions are even harder. (My classic example of this is parenting; kids criticize parents all the time. Usually they stop when they find out how hard it is to actually do...)

[lordjeebus]

It is definitely reasonable to demand an alternative solution in political debate.

Sometimes, the status quo is the lesser of all evils. To attack it without a counterproposal is easy but not productive.

[Mephisto2]

I agree that simply attacking or criticising one side of an argument without a suggested alternative is not always a good idea.

However, sometimes it is worth to simply stand back and question things. You may not have an answer, but that shouldn't stop you from asking the hard questions.

Is what we are doing right?
Is there a better way?
How can we improve things?
Why did we do this in the first place?
Has this solved the problem?
Has this created even more problems?

You get the idea. Debate is good. In his Apologia Plato has Aristotle say "A life unexamined is not worth living." In other words, we should always question what we are doing, even if we don't have the answers.

Having said all that, it sounds like this guy was just being an asshole and trying to argue for argument's sake. Just trying to push buttons.

So, debate and questioning is good. Being a twat is not. :-)


Mr Mephisto

[VitaminH]

I think you did the right thing. On my particular campus I've found that quite a few kiddies who were grossly anti-war have no idea about what to do as an alternative at this point. But they continue to voice blind opposition. I'm not saying I'm necessarily pro-war but at least I've put in some thought and reading on the matter, unlike a lot it seems...

[auswegian]

While I was against the Iraq War, or at least the way the Iraq War was conducted, I have to say that there are many anti-war protestors who are largely clueless. I consider myself reasonably well-informed...and I certainly don't have any clue as to any alternative. Which is probably why my contribution to the debate normally consists of snide comments. But going out on the streets and telling the troops to leave Iraq, and comparing Bush and Blair to Hitler, and all that, is counterproductive at this point. Those who were pro-war should not automatically react badly to any sort of criticism, and those who were anti-war shouldn't cloud the issue by questioning the other sides morals. It's too late for that now.

[Phaenx]

Of course it's fair, though I would have kicked him in the face for harassing me.

[XenuHubbard]

I think quite a few protesters were happy to find a legitimate, non-controversial target for their protests. I was one of the people who definetely opposed the war. I did so for one reason; a firm belief that Afghanistan should be sorted out first, and that an act of nation-building in Iraq that started with an attack by the US would only pave the way for fundamentalists. Well, it's already happened, and now the job has to be done. The new fight isn't between US forces and Baathists, it's a struggle to give the Iraqis better lives. It has to succeed, or the Middle East will be much more worse off than before.

The people who keep going on about it, are already stuck in the past. The question should be "Were do we go from here?".

And I certainly don't see the point in whining at the closest guy in a uniform. As pointed out, it wasn't your friend's decision.
The only choice your friend made was to join the service. The morals behind that could be debated. Not where he's sent after that.

[wilbjammin]

Thanks for your responses everyone. Now I have some more to say:

<small>(Well, first, not to be nit-picky, but Socrates said "A life unexamined is not worth living.")</small>

I think I agree pretty much with all of you. There is value is discussion of whether what we've done was good or not, but I definitely think we also need to look towards what is the most good we can do next.

I'm of the mind that comparing Bush and Blair to Hitler, etc (even if you believe that) in the public domain won't help much. Our society is rather fractured as it is, and you aren't going to gain effective change by pushing the other side's buttons. Of course, I live in Eugene so I see those famous Anarchists all of the time (I've never been able to understand how one maintains a community of Anarchists, it seems somewhat counterintuitive).

Of course it's fair, though I would have kicked him in the face for harassing me.

Yeah, I don't know why I was feeling guilty. Probably just because he went off and kept looking at me saying crap about me. I'm not used to people getting pissed off at me, I was surprised that he had such a negative reaction. I'm feeling less and less like it was justified... I'm not going to let it bother me.

[KnifeMissile]

Not that it's a big deal but doesn't this thread belong in Tilted Living?

Oh, and it's totally unreasonable for someone to question the actions of an organization that someone is merely a part of.
For instance, if I'm the president of a company then, yeah, accuse me of the actions my company does (although, even then, you may be surprised how little power I might have). But if I'm the janitor, what did I have to do with anything except belonging to the company?

[Sparhawk]

Originally posted by KnifeMissle
Not that it's a big deal but doesn't this thread belong in Tilted Living?

Oh, and it's totally unreasonable for someone to question the actions of an organization that someone is merely a part of.
For instance, if I'm the president of a company then, yeah, accuse me of the actions my company does (although, even then, you may be surprised how little power I might have). But if I'm the janitor, what did I have to do with anything except belonging to the company?

There are exceptions to that rule, the first one I can think of off the top of my head being KKK.

[archer2371]

Yeah, I agree with everyone here saying that it is unfair to harangue someone just because they are a member of the military and can only follow orders. Now I hate war, I hate it with a passion. However, the best attitude that describes my opinion about war comes from Black Hawk Down "When I go home, people ask me, 'Hey Hoot, why do you do it man, why?' I won't say a goddamn word. Why? They won't understand. They won't understand why we do it. They won't understand it's about the men next to you...and that's it. That's all it is." As I have said in previous posts, do I think it was the right decision to go to war against Iraq? Yes, I wholeheartedly believe that we can only do good there. Do I question the means by which we got there? Again, the answer is yes. I want an investigation into the intelligence offered on the basis to go to war, however, it should be done after the 2004 election to prevent a partisan squabbling over what really went on. To me, pulling out, is not an option at this point, we're too far in, to quit now would send too much of the same message to Osama bin Laden that invited the 9/11 attacks. I also wish that the international community would get off of its high horse and help us out here. Hopefully we can enlist the aid of Turkey especially since Al Qaeda fucked up by incurring their attention and wrath.

[Conclamo Ludus]

wilbjammin I think you did the right thing. Although its okay to rant sometimes, unfairly lashing out against someone in uniform is very childish. He was completely misplacing his anger. You did well in getting to the bottom of that. If you are going to get into a reasonable discussion about it with someone you have to filter out people that aren't really there to discuss anything. He was simply trolling, probably hamming it up to get a pat on the back from anybody who agrees with him. Hardly a discussion.

[saline]

The war was wrong, the war is still wrong, the fact that it's "over" doesn't change that.

I'll admit that approaching people in uniform simply for the purpose of arguing with them is a little pointless and quite a bit presumptuous.

However, pointing out that we can't pull out now is just dodging the fact that we shouldn't be there in the first place. Additionally, the fact that those opposed to the war don't have a solution is less an example of that persons ignorance and more an example of the horrible situation the Bush administration have put us in. It's like asking a person opposed to nuclear power how they would set about building a nuclear with nothing but sand. Is this really a fair criticism? Clearly not.

In short, Mr. Mephisto has a strong point.

I'll admit that although I can speculate and offer ideas for a better reconstruction I feel it's likely that we're pretty well screwed. I don't think the Bush administration has a plan (let alone a good one) themselves. Their recent decision to completely reverse course and speed up the timetable for elections is evidence to me that the Bush administration is grasping at straws.

Which to me isn't surprising because I don't think the second Gulf War was anything but a war for money and power. But thats just because I'm one of those crazy liberals only interested in stupid hippie things like justice and peace.

[Yakk]

First, your friend as a member of the National Guard, has no say in where he goes or what he does. So long as his orders do not violate military law or the constitution, he has to obey.

So to call him out for that is unfair.

Which is why some people find joining a military organization to be morally impossible. Not quite the right words, but: by joining a military organization, you are agreeing to let someone else make decisions about morality for you. To some, this makes no sense: you are responsible for your actions, and their consequences, period.

Oh, and it's totally unreasonable for someone to question the actions of an organization that someone is merely a part of.
For instance, if I'm the president of a company then, yeah, accuse me of the actions my company does (although, even then, you may be surprised how little power I might have). But if I'm the janitor, what did I have to do with anything except belonging to the company?

Where you aware of the companies actions?

Did you continue to aid and be a part of the company, dispite this awareness?

Where you willfully ignorante of the companies actions?

[Phaenx]

Originally posted by wilbjammin
Yeah, I don't know why I was feeling guilty. Probably just because he went off and kept looking at me saying crap about me. I'm not used to people getting pissed off at me, I was surprised that he had such a negative reaction. I'm feeling less and less like it was justified... I'm not going to let it bother me.

Like hell, your buddy ensures that guy had the right to harass him, and he takes his frustrations out on him? Infuriating.

Logic is also a great way to shut someones face, is it your fault he couldn't take it, put his tail between his legs and ran away? It probably is, but who cares about his feelings, he didn't care much about your friends did he?

[reconmike]

Your friend has more restraint than I do, please tell him so.
I would have put him in a fatal hand to hand combat move just to see the expression on his face.

I had a simular situation on veterans day, I am in the color guard of the vfw I belong to, and was on my way to the parade in full dress blues.

I stopped at the 7-11 for some coffee when a couple of Rutgers students wanted to know if I had just got back from Iraq, how could I go and fight a reprehensible war, then they got very personal, with my lack of morals, killing indiscrimatly.

All this before I had the chance to tell them I wasnt even there.

When I had the chance to tell them I wasnt there this time but did it GW1 thats when all the cliches started,
But I stopped the with my best Jack Nicholson quote:

"Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Whose gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinburg? I have more responsibility here than you could possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago, and you curse the marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That Santiago's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And that my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. I know deep down in places you dont talk about at parties, you don't want me on that wall, you need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide, then question the manner in which I provide it. I prefer you said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand to post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to! "

Tell your buddy that he is doing a good thing that most do not have the stomache or the courage to do.

[wilbjammin]

I was talking to him about how he just let that guy harass him, and he said that he was used to it, and that this was actually pretty tame. Apparently, people think that because they live in peace-loving Eugene, that it is ok to accuse anyone associated with National Defense as murdering jerks. He has a better attitude about it than I do, he somehow just doesn't care about it and calmly argues his points. Maybe it has gotten so old that he lost the will to get fired up about it.

[txlovely]

Your friend is doing an honorable thing and it is obvious from the other guy's reaction to your questions that he was not really prepared to have a discussion at all. Whether you are for or against any military action, the people on the front lines are not the ones with whom you should take up the issue. For them, "Great Job" and "Thank You" is sufficient - well, not really but hopefully you know what I mean.

[Kurant]

I think people react and talk like that because Bush has made an absolute mess out of Iraq. Your friend did the noble thing, standing up for himself, and his country.