Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community - Isreal is the greatest threat to world peace; US 2nd.

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Isreal is the greatest threat to world peace; US 2nd.

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BRUSSELS (AFP) - The European Union (news - web sites) scrambled to contain the fallout from a public opinion poll that -- to Israel's fury -- labelled the Jewish state the biggest threat to world peace.

The United States was just behind Israel in the global danger league, in joint second place with North Korea (news - web sites) and Iran, according to the "Eurobarometer" poll requested by the European Commission (news - web sites).

The results were part of a survey last month on Europeans' attitudes in the aftermath of the Iraq (news - web sites) war, which also found that more than two-thirds of EU citizens think that the US-led war was wrong.

The Israeli embassy in Brussels voiced outrage at the findings, which said that 59 percent of Europeans see Israel as a threat to world peace.

"Europeans seem blind to Israeli victims and suffering. Instead, they have put the Jewish state below the level of the worst pariah state and terror organizations," it said in a statement.

"We are not only sad but outraged. Not at European citizens, but at those who are responsible for forming public opinion," the embassy added.

"Israel's desperate struggle for peace and security for its people has been distorted beyond recognition in often one-sided and emotionally charged media coverage."

The poll had already prompted angry reactions after details were leaked by the Spanish daily El Pais last week.

The Israeli ambassador to Italy -- which currently holds the EU presidency -- told the daily Il Messagero Monday that the poll could have significant diplomatic consequences.

"It seems to me that the only aim of this poll was to denigrate Israel at a very delicate time, and I think it will it much more difficult for Europe to fulfill its ambition to play a part in the peace process," said Ehud Gol.

The EU's Italian presidency tried to play down the results, insisting they did not reflect the official EU position.

"The result of the survey, based on an ambiguous question, does not reflect the position of the European Union which has been voiced on numerous occasions," Italian Foreign Minister Franco Frattini said in a statement.

"The EU is all the more annoyed since it is fully aware that the Israeli population is hit hard by terrorism," it said, criticising the "false signal" that the survey sent out.

According to the Eurobarometer poll, based on interviews with 500 people in each of the 15 EU states, some 59 percent of Europeans replied "yes" when asked whether or not Israel presents a threat to peace in the world.

A total of 53 percent said Iran, North Korea and the United States pose a threat, followed by 52 percent for Iraq, 50 percent for Afghanistan (news - web sites) and 48 percent for Pakistan.

Countries lower down the list included Syria, Libya, Saudi Arabia, China, India, Russia and Somalia. The EU itself was described as a threat by eight percent of respondents.

The EU survey was presented in the form of a list of 15 countries, from which some 7,515 respondents were asked to say which ones they thought pose a threat to world peace.

Commission spokesman Gerassimos Thomas was repeatedly asked why the Palestinian territories were not included, while for example the survey asked Europeans about the threat from Somalia. "It is not a country," he replied when pressed over the Palestinians.

The European Commission said Israel's anger was "legitimate" but refused to get drawn into whether the poll findings were valid.

"I think the (Israeli) reaction was a very legitimate reaction," the spokesman for the EU's executive arm told reporters.

But he added: "It is not our task to interpret each and every survey. We don't place excessive emphasis on one poll result."

LINK

damn...those isrealis beat us!

US was #1 before this and we have slipped! we must start more wars!

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on a serious note, i tend to agree that US & Isreal are very aggressive nations.

Isreali is warning of consequences cuz of what the europeans think? that's really funny.

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"We are not only sad but outraged. Not at European citizens, but at those who are responsible for forming public opinion," the embassy added.

I really did not get what this was supposed to mean.

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Originally posted by The_Dude

I really did not get what this was supposed to mean.

I think it's their way of saying they're pissed but not wanting to piss anyone off.

I think this just shows that they are pissy, bitter, and misinformed.

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Commission spokesman Gerassimos Thomas was repeatedly asked why the Palestinian territories were not included, while for example the survey asked Europeans about the threat from Somalia. "It is not a country," he replied

Hehe, pwned. Guess denying the Palestinians the right to their homeland might backfire on ya every now and then eh?

These are the same Europeans who helped kill 6 million Jews right?

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Originally posted by Ustwo
These are the same Europeans who helped kill 6 million Jews right?

That was a very sensible and thought out comment Utswo, you really made me think with that one. Thank you for your generous contribution to this forum, manifested through your sharp wit and intelligent posts.

I guess there are more Europeans suffering from Hitler and his deeds than those supporting him. If you want to contribute, maybe make a comment regarding the obvious differences between European and American point of view regarding international issues, go ahead. If you want to troll and throw out the Holocaust-card 5 seconds into an Israel-discussion, you are pretty much putting your ignorance and prejudivce on wide display.

If world peace is defined by control by dictators and despots, then I guess the U.S. deserves to be at the top of the list of countries that will damage world peace. We have always been a country in support of democracy, and we will step in and fight for freedom when necessary. And now President JFK has something to say:

Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, That we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the Survival and success of liberty."
-- John F. Kennedy Inaugural Address Washington, D.C. January 20, 1961

Just because the US is bankrolling Israel doesnt mean it's a good place.

I think that one of the reasons that the US is ranked as #2 on this list is that they start a whole lot of wars all over the globe. Now some might say that it is to preserve peace but war is still war. War isn't peace.
And I belive that some unstable territories in the world needs to stabilize themselves and the best thing we can do is to leave them alone. A couple of examples of selfstabilizing territories are the former Soviet Union and present day China.

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Originally posted by eple
That was a very sensible and thought out comment Utswo, you really made me think with that one. Thank you for your generous contribution to this forum, manifested through your sharp wit and intelligent posts.

I guess there are more Europeans suffering from Hitler and his deeds than those supporting him. If you want to contribute, maybe make a comment regarding the obvious differences between European and American point of view regarding international issues, go ahead. If you want to troll and throw out the Holocaust-card 5 seconds into an Israel-discussion, you are pretty much putting your ignorance and prejudivce on wide display.

Nicely put, eple.

SLM3

Thats just sad. But they are in Europe, so I can't really blame them for being so grotesquely misinformed. Its the Americans I am worried about. I keep hearing from native-born Americans about how much they hate America, and are embarassed to be American, and think its an oppressive and hostile nation... well, I got news for ya, "Yank". You have to be pretty damn spoiled to think that America and Israel are the bad guys.

I was born in Soviet Russia. And in Soviet Russia, .. weh, I'm not doing the Smirnoff thing anymore. Its funny how people who have lived all their lives in the friendly, generous, and protective yolk of American society have the nerve to not only take their lives for granted, but also dump the country that made it all possible into the same category as assorted dictators.

America is the only nation in the world with the guts to get out there and do things. Sure, some times mistakes are made instead of plans, but if the only alternative is to sit on our fattening asses and do nothing, then I'd rather move to Australia. At least the view is nicer. But thats not how America works. It is a leader, not a follower. America makes things happen - yes, some times it disturbs those comfortable holes in the sand people buried their heads into, and it makes them upset, but those people have never seen the alternative.

If it wasn't for America, billions of people, myself included, would be DEAD or OPPRESSED. I owe my life and my freedom to this country, and I am not going to let people talk trash about one of the few (and the strongest) bastions of democracy in the world without putting them through some hands-on case studies in oppression. Off to the gulag with yas :D

What Nefir said! And I'll raise you whatever! If the rest of the damned world is so great why do some of you keep hangin' out here?

I wish people would blame the old British Empire more for the whole middle eastern house of cards. Nobody has any sense of history. Bloody Poms.

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Originally posted by Nefir
Thats just sad. But they are in Europe, so I can't really blame them for being so grotesquely misinformed. Its the Americans I am worried about. I keep hearing from native-born Americans about how much they hate America, and are embarassed to be American, and think its an oppressive and hostile nation... well, I got news for ya, "Yank". You have to be pretty damn spoiled to think that America and Israel are the bad guys.

I was born in Soviet Russia. And in Soviet Russia, .. weh, I'm not doing the Smirnoff thing anymore. Its funny how people who have lived all their lives in the friendly, generous, and protective yolk of American society have the nerve to not only take their lives for granted, but also dump the country that made it all possible into the same category as assorted dictators.

America is the only nation in the world with the guts to get out there and do things. Sure, some times mistakes are made instead of plans, but if the only alternative is to sit on our fattening asses and do nothing, then I'd rather move to Australia. At least the view is nicer. But thats not how America works. It is a leader, not a follower. America makes things happen - yes, some times it disturbs those comfortable holes in the sand people buried their heads into, and it makes them upset, but those people have never seen the alternative.

If it wasn't for America, billions of people, myself included, would be DEAD or OPPRESSED. I owe my life and my freedom to this country, and I am not going to let people talk trash about one of the few (and the strongest) bastions of democracy in the world without putting them through some hands-on case studies in oppression. Off to the gulag with yas :D

Surely some of your case studies would refer to america's treatment of native americans, perhaps our occupation of the phillipines, slavery, segregation, etc.
America is an aggressive country, and with a new policy of preemptive action seems to potentially be a huge threat to world peace. What is wrong with pointing that out? Maybe you misunderstand what it means to be american, but criticism and prodding is a vital part of any democracy. We even have a constitution protecting our rights to do so, apparently, our founding fathers thought that right was really important.

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Originally posted by Liquor Dealer
What Nefir said! And I'll raise you whatever! If the rest of the damned world is so great why do some of you keep hangin' out here?

So your saying america is perfect? No criticism is properly placed when refering to america? It's great that we have the right to be openly critical of america, but on the other hand, actually using that right makes someone a fool?

I'm sorry, but i can criticise america all i want and still want to live here. This "love it or leave it" attitude is sorely lacking of any kind of courage or thought. What if our founding fathers had just "left it"? Maybe we'd all be better of if MLK had just "left it".

Fuck that. I know america is a damn fine place to live, but you're really deluding yourself if you think it is above criticism and beyond improvement. If i want to denounce our foreign policy who the hell is anybody to tell me to leave?

The leader of the current administration would appear to put the United States as the number one threat to peace:

"See, free nations are peaceful nations.
Free nations don't attack each other.
Free nations don't develop "weapons of mass destruction. " " -George W Bush

I do believe that even the most skepitical American conservative would have to allow that the United States first developed nuclear weapons and has more such devices on hand than any other nation on the planet.

Of couse W could just be wandering in the verbal thicket he so often gets lost in.

2Wolves

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Surely some of your case studies would refer to america's treatment of native americans, perhaps our occupation of the phillipines, slavery, segregation, etc.

Slavery is a dark blotch on America's history, yes, but it has been abolished, which makes it invalid as an argument for problems America is blamed for *today*. Whether the damage will ever be repaired in the black community is a story for a whole other thread. The treatment of Native Americans goes back even further in time, and though atrocities have been committed by America's founding fathers, times have changed and we have evolved. I am not informed enough to speak about the Phillipines, so I won't.

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What is wrong with pointing that out?

Lets be serious here - we are on the net, two anonymous entities arguing about poltiics. If this is not an opinion thread, I don't know what is.
You can point out anything you like - thats the nature of free speech - but be prepared to offer alternatives instead of just bashing an action. Be prepared to argue why not doing anything would be better than doing what has been done. Otherwise it adds nothing and doesn't help get things fixed.

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criticism and prodding is a vital part of any democracy

There's a difference between constructive criticism, which gets things fixed, and the kind of criticism which breeds hate, resentment, and uncooperation. I didn't say criticism should be banned - I am stating my OWN opinion that I think that certain kinds of criticism are extremely ignorant and counterproductive.

So many of the problems that the U.S. has been involved in is because of our cold war with the Soviet Union. Korea? Communists supported by USSR. Vietnam? Communists supported by USSR. Afghanistan? We trained bin Laden and the Taliban to combat Soviets. Iran? We supported the Shah to push off Soviet influence. Israel? The only democracy in the region where oil is. Why did we fight Iraqis who had Soviet weapons? BTW, what the hell were the Cubans doing in Africa? oh yeah, pushing communism into Africa. Now the USSR is gone and broken up, but we are left holding the basket and looking like the bad guys because we keep trying to put out the fires. Some of the problems are ours, because we made bad decisions. Supporting dictators like Hussein and Noriega did not work out, even though we thought they were less of an evil than communism. But hey, we have tried to make a difference. No we cannot forget the past, but it is nice to look to the future and try to help people.

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Originally posted by Nefir
The treatment of Native Americans goes back even further in time, and though atrocities have been committed by America's founding fathers, times have changed and we have evolved.

How much info about existing 'oopsies' would you like? I try not to be a "one song Johnny" concerning this topic but even the most cursory investigation should revolt any sane individual.

2Wolves

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Originally posted by 2wolves
How much info about existing 'oopsies' would you like? I try not to be a "one song Johnny" concerning this topic but even the most cursory investigation should revolt any sane individual.

2Wolves

I admit, I am not sure what you expect me to say in defense of America's "oopsies", because I am not defending them one bit. If we are going to be pulling out skeletons from everyone's closets, why not remember all the colonists who were exploited by the English, both in India and the Americas? The English have had WAY more history to commit all sorts of fun atrocities, but that has nothing to do with the problems at hand, and we are not bringing them up.

Why then, are mistakes of America's past (from which we have learned, too!) being used to judge the America of today?

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Originally posted by Nefir
I admit, I am not sure what you expect me to say in defense of America's "oopsies", because I am not defending them one bit. If we are going to be pulling out skeletons from everyone's closets, why not remember all the colonists who were exploited by the English, both in India and the Americas? The English have had WAY more history to commit all sorts of fun atrocities, but that has nothing to do with the problems at hand, and we are not bringing them up.

Why then, are mistakes of America's past (from which we have learned, too!) being used to judge the America of today?

Past? Past?!?!?!?!? I'm talking about theft, dis-enfranchisement, and abuse going on yesterday, today and tomorrow.

And yes that means the second of November, 2003, the third of November 2003, and the fourth of November 2003.

2Wolves

Woohoo! At this rate, you'll count up to my birthday :D

Seriously though, you'll just have to cite some references, because US being the 2nd greatest threat to world peace (and Israel the 1st) is a pretty heavy accusation, and thats what the thread is about.

Maybe I'm just a dumb uninformed immigrant (and for all I know, I could very well be one), but you'll just have to do some convincing here, because, try as I might, I'm just not prepared to take your post as the unbiased word of truth.

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Originally posted by Nefir
Woohoo! At this rate, you'll count up to my birthday :D

Seriously though, you'll just have to cite some references, because US being the 2nd greatest threat to world peace (and Israel the 1st) is a pretty heavy accusation, and thats what the thread is about.

Maybe I'm just a dumb uninformed immigrant (and for all I know, I could very well be one), but you'll just have to do some convincing here, because, try as I might, I'm just not prepared to take your post as the unbiased word of truth.

http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...threadid=29040

Start there and if you'd care to google on your own and select media conduits of your choice the learning curve is rather brief.

2Wolves

I would like to see how indian casinos do under investigation. Remember all those promises that INdian casinos will pay for schools, alchol abuse programs, wiping out poverty, and yet when I go back to New Mexico and visit friends on the res, i dont see any poverty, alchol abuse and a school every where I look. Why dont you talk about this 2wolves?

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Originally posted by Food Eater Lad
I would like to see how indian casinos do under investigation. Remember all those promises that INdian casinos will pay for schools, alchol abuse programs, wiping out poverty, and yet when I go back to New Mexico and visit friends on the res, i dont see any poverty, alchol abuse and a school every where I look. Why dont you talk about this 2wolves?

Perhaps you'll start a new thread and quote your above post into it, thereby making it relevant.

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Seriously though, you'll just have to cite some references, because US being the 2nd greatest threat to world peace (and Israel the 1st) is a pretty heavy accusation, and thats what the thread is about.

Mabye someone could explain to me why america, with what is arguably the most effective military force on the planet, with a new policy of military action based only on percieved threat, and with an administration that apparently has no qualms with decieving the people who put it into power and telling the world to fuck off, isn't the number one threat to world peace?

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Sorry eple but I figure it was the easiest way to say I could care less what the Euros think anymore. I've lost family fighting in European wars, and for your freedom and if they want to whine about the US I don't reallly care.

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Originally posted by Ustwo
These are the same Europeans who helped kill 6 million Jews right?

:icare: hope whatever is troubling you will get resolved somehow

the easiest way to say I could care less what the Euros think anymore. I've lost family fighting in European wars, and for your freedom and if they want to whine about the US I don't reallly care. :rolleyes:

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Originally posted by Ustwo
Sorry eple but I figure it was the easiest way to say I could care less what the Euros think anymore. I've lost family fighting in European wars, and for your freedom and if they want to whine about the US I don't reallly care.

I bet many euros are rethinking their perspectives now. Maybe next time you could just skip posting if all you are going to do is find a very poorly reflecting upon you way of saying that you don't care.
btw, who hasn't lost family fighting in european wars? That shits all in the past, the world has changed. Don't hold people accountable for their parent's problems. You didn't liberate them, your relatives liberated their relatives. Stop pretending like they owe you anything.

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Originally posted by filtherton
Don't hold people accountable for their parent's problems. You didn't liberate them, your relatives liberated their relatives.

God forbid you spend a moment in quiet contemplative thanks. It's ancient history, right? Sacrifices that happened 58 years ago are no less significant just because they occured more than twice as long ago as you were born. You will gain a sense of perspective as you get older.

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Originally posted by Peetster
God forbid you spend a moment in quiet contemplative thanks. It's ancient history, right? Sacrifices that happened 58 years ago are no less significant just because they occured more than twice as long ago as you were born. You will gain a sense of perspective as you get older.

So Europeans in general have no right of critizising Israel, as Jews were discriminated in European countries before? Excuse me, but that is bullshit. I already pointed out the vast majority of Europeans have no connections to the discriminatins and killing of jews at all. The very idea of discussing "Europeans" as a group is idiotic. There are no "Europeans"! There are English and Germans and French and so on. 500 million people are not sharing a common responsibility for the actions of one of the nations within the union.

You know what I learned when I was a kid? Two wrongs doesn't make a right. The state of Israel is discriminating Palestinians but they are in full right to do that because they were victims of German genocide right? The Germans united and tried to control Europe through WW2, but they were right in doing so, as they had been surpressed and discriminated against post WW1 right? History is of no use if we only use it to defend our wrongdoings, instead of using it to learn and evolve.

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<edited> Deleted a joke which I mistook to be serious<edit>

apologies.

Observing the past is the number one way to misinterpret the future.

I think american pride during times of an unjustifiable war is despicable.

This whole country only chooses to teach our history in a light that makes us out to be the wronged, who in the end, makes it all right.

My history books would show some scared stingy white boys trying to escape taxation. with money being the root of all evil. this leads to the idea of starting thier own government apart from any of the European influences.

bum bum bum.

well guess what, Native americans are already there, oops!, lets just kill them all!.

hrm, well that didn't work, guess we should buy them off with some land sometime down the line.

hey we need work done for us, lets get some of those N***ers from africa to do all of our shit work for us!

oops! they think they are people! isnt that cute!

Oh crap I gotta do my own work now? well I think my wife needs to clean my house and get in the kitchen and make me some food!

oops! what? you arent my slave?
you are people too?

damn, cant kill native americans, cant use blacks for labor, cant use women for labor? well damn, I still have my money im saving since I escaped those taxing bastards in europe.

la la la

oh look, gay people? they want rights too? what? they want to be married?

oh look, our government taxes me off my check when i earn money, oh look, im being taxed when i buy food, or whatever.

oh gee. this doesnt feel so free now does it?

---------------------------------

ok, every step of the way, this country that was supposedly about freedom... there has had to have been a massive fight, a huge uprising, a campaign of massive proportions to get anything done about it.

how long did it take to get equal rights for minorities? too long
how long did it take for women to get equal pay? not happening yet accoring to recent studies.
how long did it take for our pirate ship government to make up with the native americans? uh, what?

heh.

this countries actions make me sick. the rich get tax cuts, *money really is the root of all evil see? corporate america! GO!* the poor get fucked. and the only right we have, is to be able to bitch about it. a lot of good that does.

i suppose my post may be too inflammatory for some.

dont take it personal, this is how I FEEL.
this is why i plan on leaving the states.
I feel dirty being an american since our history AND out current affairs are nothing but dirty money making schemes and a fight for power, built on the backs of the gullible people who really did truely want freedom.

Shauk,

All neatly tied up in the two word phrase "Manifest Destiny." ...or maybe three words "Gott Mit Uns" something like that.

"When the whites came to our country, we had the land and they had the Bible, now we have the Bible and they have the land."

2Wolves

This post became obsolete, so I decide to use it to prevent drug use. Stay away from drugs kids, just say no.

Let's keep on topic,
and let's have a calm discussion

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Originally posted by eple
Heh, I did that as an obvious joke, I didn't think anybody could take it seriously. Later, as i learned some people were offended, I changed it. I apologize for any harm my humour migh have caused, and hope that we can debate in spite of a failed joke.

Ahh that's ok. I laughed at first thinking it was a joke but then, when I gave it some thought, wasn't sure if you were serious. Now I know you were joking and I'll never mention it again.

--Paul

im chill. thanks for letting me make my own eyeballs pop out though :D

<Neo>You didn't answer my question.</Neo> :D

I appreciate the plight of the Native Americans, but what has this to do with America being the #2 threat to world peace?

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My history books would show some scared stingy white boys trying to escape taxation. with money being the root of all evil. this leads to the idea of starting thier own government apart from any of the European influences.

And that makes us different from every other European nation... how? What you described is a result of business as usual in a world dominated by imperialistic policy. The world was a very different place. Have you considered WHY they were trying to escape taxatiton? Something about a little thing called representation, maybe, or the lack thereof? :)

The rest of that paints a painfully incomplete picture. Its funny how people can present half (less, in this case) of a story, make up the rest, and others start nodding in agreement.

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this is why i plan on leaving the states.
I feel dirty being an american

I respect your decision, and I hope you find equality, truth, justice, and the persuit of happiness where ever you choose to go. Don't let the door hit you on the way out ;)

Seriously, I appreciate you sharing your feelings, but my question is still not answered. Lets try this another way... I'll just ask outright. Why do Americans feel America is a major threat to world peace? Note the emphasis. And before you bring up the fact that America gets into everyone's business, is too nosy, etc. consider this: would the world be better off if America stopped? Think real hard about that, because I think thats where the problem is... We are damned if we do, and damned if we don't.

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Originally posted by Nefir

I think thats where the problem is... We are damned if we do, and damned if we don't.

I also think that you guys believing this, is the problem.

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"As i get older"? Gee, maybe sometime nanna can make me some cookies and get me a glass of warm milk and i can curl up in your lap in front of the fireplace and you can tell me about the "big war".:rolleyes:

Ancient history? Maybe not, but it is only slighlty less ancient than manifest destiny and slavery and yet i swear i've seen at least a few people argue that such things are irrelevant to the current state of affairs because they are in the past. The gist of it usually is, "You can't hold me accountable for what my parents did" Slave reparations? Well, i wasn't responsible so don't talk to me. Honoring treaties? I didn't sign any treaties.
I'm not responsible for the actions of my fathers.

You need to get some perspective if you think all of europe is obligated to not supply any input to current global affairs if their opinion happens to run contrary the the official u.s. line. That's nonsense. The whole "my daddy/grampa saved your daddy/grampa" argument is just like the "love it or leave it" argument. They are what people say when they really have nothing good to say.

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Originally posted by Nefir
Why do Americans feel America is a major threat to world peace?

Maybe someone could explain to me why america, with what is arguably the most effective military force on the planet, with a new policy of military action based only on percieved threat, and with an administration that apparently has no qualms with decieving the people who put it into power and telling the world to fuck off, isn't the NUMBER ONE threat to world peace?

The question is peace at what price?

We could let Israel be destroyed but at what price?

We could have let Iraq roam free, but at what price?

We could curl up into our shell, let the world deal with its problems and be loved by all, but at what price?

Europe may fear us, and I don't blame them. EVERY damn time some European nation has a major military advantage over another one, they went to war of conquest with some neighboring country/countries. I can't blame them for thinking we won't be any better then they have been.

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Originally posted by Ustwo
The question is peace at what price?

We could have let Iraq roam free, but at what price?

But the U.N. stopped that, with our help being in the main. Oil embargo, no fly zones etc.....

2Wolves

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Originally posted by 2wolves
But the U.N. stopped that, with our help being in the main. Oil embargo, no fly zones etc.....

2Wolves

For how long? For how many executions? For how many false claims of UN sanctions starving Iraqi children? France and Germany wanted sanctions lifted so they could reap the oil rewards. How many years would we have had to keep it up? Until Saddam was dead? Until his sons were dead?

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Originally posted by Ustwo
For how long? For how many executions? For how many false claims of UN sanctions starving Iraqi children? France and Germany wanted sanctions lifted so they could reap the oil rewards. How many years would we have had to keep it up? Until Saddam was dead? Until his sons were dead?

You said "roam free" I responded to that. What's the problem?

2Wolves

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Do you really think the embargos had any effect apart from creating cheap propaganda material from Saddam and starving the population?

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Originally posted by eple
Do you really think the embargos had any effect apart from creating cheap propaganda material from Saddam and starving the population?

Nope, not at all, which is why I think removing Saddam from power was the only option. Perhaps if France, Germany, and Russia all joined with the US in demanding Iraq comply with the resolutions, Saddam wouldn't have thought we were bluffing and would have complied.

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Originally posted by Ustwo
For how many FALSE claims of UN sanctions starving Iraqi children?

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Originally posted by eple
Do you really think the embargos had any effect apart from creating cheap propaganda material from Saddam and STARVING THE POPULATION

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Originally posted by Ustwo
Nope, not at all, which is why I think removing Saddam from power was the only option. Perhaps if France, Germany, and Russia all joined with the US in demanding Iraq comply with the resolutions, Saddam wouldn't have thought we were bluffing and would have complied.

Seems like you are contradiction yourself.

Oh I'm sorry eple I overestimated your knowlage of the subject. I thought you knew the sanctions had nothing to do with 'starving' the population, but the food/medicine problems were due to Saddam's actions while blaming the UN. As such I read your quote as something like ...

Quote:

Do you really think the embargos had any effect apart from creating cheap propaganda material from Saddam {while he was} STARVING THE POPULATION

I won't make that mistake again.

Heh, obviously you must be right if I am an idiot and shit. I'll take your word for that no problem.

I believe the embargos made the situation in Iraq worse, and that it only fueled Saddam's propaganda machinery. The embargos were to Iraqis the proof that the western world was wging war on them, and on Islam. Of course Saddam was responsible for starving these people, I am just saying that the embargos made it even easier for him to control the country, while harming innocents at the same time. Saddam and his mates didn't starve and die because of the poverty, ordinary innocent citizens did. Any supposed symbolic effect would be lost to the Arabic countries, as their leaders would explain to them how the embargos were the manifestation of western hate for the Islamic world. You need to see the big picture here. Who suffered fromt the embargos, who profited, and what were the outcome. My claim is that innocents sufferend, Saddam profited, and the outcome was a humanitarian catasrophe.

Edit: To put it short: if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

I'd like to see the United States pull out every single soldier from every country that we have our fingers in. Not that it would help -- we would then be seen as greedy isolationists that threaten world peace by not involving ourselves in every two-bit country's conflict. The US cannot win a propaganda war that is this idiotic.

As for Israel, I agree -- if the Jews would just shut up and let themselves be massacred, again, they wouldn't need to fight against terrorist groups. Lack of fighting is the same thing as peace, right? :rolleyes:

Quote:

Naw it would be cool. Really, go ahead. Seriously, only Americans believe that whole manifest destiny thingie anyways.

Quote:

As for Israel, I agree -- if the Jews would just shut up and let themselves be massacred, again, they wouldn't need to fight against terrorist groups. Lack of fighting is the same thing as peace, right?

Wow, that sharp wit just blew all argumentation away. Maybe there are no good guys or bad guys here, just a buch of wankers not able to get along. I read something interesting yesterday. According to some smarty literate fella in the paper, there are two classical types of endings to a conflict. There is the Shakesperian way, where different points of view crash, and only one is left victorious. Then there is the Tchekovian way, where nobody wins and both sides are left disillutioned but at peace. Hopefully, the Shakesperian way will not be executed, as that would require genocide of some sort, so in the end, all the wackos will need to put their destructive fantasies of total control over Israel aside, and just start living together. Building a wall through Israel to "block any terrorists form entering", is not the way. Neither is, of course, killing people be it with apache helicopters or with dynamite strapped on your body. Now, if you follow me, I am not supporting palestinian goals of chasing all Israelis away from their homeland, but I believe Israel needs to be controlled, and stopped from making this worse. Both sides must cooperate to stop the violence and the terror, and both sides must treat each other with respect. If you ask me, killing Sharon would be the best step you could take towards peace. He is a mad fucker. Arafat has so much less power, so I don't really see the need of whacking him (he is dying anyway).

quote:
These are the same Europeans who helped kill 6 million Jews right?

I think most of them are dead now. ( The killers that is )

What a silly poll.

I suppose Europe considers the world to be bounded within Southwest Asia.

If that were the case then we would certainly be the gravest threat to peace, probably even moreso than Israel. But where else are we a threat?

Pacific rim? I think not. North Korea takes that cake.

Central Asia? Nope, our war in Afghanistan pales in comparison to the Russian war in Chechnya.

Africa then, surely. No? Oh yeah, our only military presence there is keeping Liberians from hacking each other to bits.

Have we threatened anyone in Europe recently? Nope, we just spend billions of dollars a year maintaining SFOR and KFOR troop, a job the Europeans should probably be doing since it is their backyard.

South America then... Hell, all of our military efforts there go toward drug eradication.

Greatest threat to world peace? I think not. Poverty and hunger take that prize.

Oh yeah, who feeds more people each year than all of europe combined?

The poll seems to be rather silly. Apparently, there were 27-ish countries to be chosen from, which left out many options. Then one might ask what exactly the question was - different wordings lead to different answers. Furthermore, there were some 2500 responses, which is hardly representative of the entire EU population.

And finally, if one where to ask 2500 people in (only) the big cities in the Netherlands if Israel is evil, you'd get a large percentage saying yes, if only because there's a lot of angry young Muslim immigrants living there, who (as recent experience shows) tend to be quite anti-semitic. This effect can be introduced into the official poll (of 2500 from some 350 milion) by mere chance - only a few people need to be anti-semitic for the results to be overplayed.

(Besides, what does "threat to world peace" mean to the people that answered the question? The Jews being a threat, or the Palestinians there being a threat, or the whole situation being a threat? If it's the latter, they'd be correct, IMHO.)

***EDIT*** Please disreguard

There goes that dam return button again, sorry about the interuption. . . .

Quote:

Originally posted by Dragonlich
The poll seems to be rather silly. Apparently, there were 27-ish countries to be chosen from, which left out many options. Then one might ask what exactly the question was - different wordings lead to different answers. Furthermore, there were some 2500 responses, which is hardly representative of the entire EU population.

And finally, if one where to ask 2500 people in (only) the big cities in the Netherlands if Israel is evil, you'd get a large percentage saying yes, if only because there's a lot of angry young Muslim immigrants living there, who (as recent experience shows) tend to be quite anti-semitic. This effect can be introduced into the official poll (of 2500 from some 350 milion) by mere chance - only a few people need to be anti-semitic for the results to be overplayed.

(Besides, what does "threat to world peace" mean to the people that answered the question? The Jews being a threat, or the Palestinians there being a threat, or the whole situation being a threat? If it's the latter, they'd be correct, IMHO.)

The nation of Israel isn't "the Jews" that's like saying germany 1939 was "the Christians". Israel is a state who defend their actinos through zionism. This is not a question about anti-semitism, but anti-zionism. I have no problem being anti-zionite, these guys are fanatics, and should be stopped. I am sick and tired of ignorants claiming that Europe must be anti-semite because the general opinion is that Israel need to stop the oppression of Paslestinians. Would I have to be anti-christian to be against Hitler?

Hitler was not Christian, he might've been born into a Christian family, but he was not Christian.

Quote:

Originally posted by Mojo_PeiPei
Hitler was not Christian, he might've been born into a Christian family, but he was not Christian.

His regime built on christianity. They even included the bible in some of their crazy theories of Aryan superiority. Gott mit uns, remember?

It seems people are making to much fuss about the Israel thing - that's not what the poll was about really - just one of many questions asked:

Check it out for yourselves here: Poll [PDF]

If you do you'll read things like:

Quote:

The first results of this survey reveal that EU citizens :

• prefer that the United Nations and the provisional government
manage the rebuilding of Iraq
• are highly in favour of offering humanitarian aid to Iraq
• want their country to participate in financing the rebuilding of
Iraq
• want the US to bear the brunt of financing the rebuilding of Iraq
• want the UN to guarantee security in Iraq
• want the UN to manage the transition to a sovereign government
in Iraq
• think that the military intervention in Iraq was not justified
• want more EU involvement in the Middle East Peace process
• still feel the threat of terrorism

Quote:

Originally posted by rogue49
Let's keep on topic,
and let's have a calm discussion

It does not suprise me that members of the EU want the UN to oversee the rebuilding, but want the US tobear the brunt of paying for it.

Here is a fairly well balanced, but slightly dated and lengthy article, that I enjoyed, and thought it might be of interest. The writer attempts to answer a similar question to the one posed in this thread.

My thoughts are below the article.

link

Quote:

The Arrogant Empire

The Arrogant Empire
America’s unprecedented power scares the world, and the Bush administration has only made it worse. How we got here–and what we can do about it now
By Fareed Zakaria

PART I: The United States will soon be at war with Iraq. It would seem, on the face of it, a justifiable use of military force. Saddam Hussein runs one of the most tyrannical regimes in modern history.

FOR MORE THAN 25 years he has sought to acquire chemical, biological and nuclear weapons, and has, in several documented cases, succeeded. He gassed 60,000 of his own people in 1986 in Halabja. He has launched two catastrophic wars, sacrificing nearly a million Iraqis and killing or wounding more than a million Iranians. He has flouted 16 United Nations resolutions over 12 years that have warned him to disarm or else, including one, four months ago, giving him a "final opportunity" to do so "fully and immediately" or face "serious consequences." But in its campaign against Iraq, America is virtually alone. Never will it have waged a war in such isolation. Never have so many of its allies been so firmly opposed to its policies. Never has it provoked so much public opposition, resentment and mistrust. And all this before the first shot has been fired.

Watching the tumult around the world, it’s evident that what is happening goes well beyond this particular crisis. Many people, both abroad and in America, fear that we are at some kind of turning point, where well-established mainstays of the global order–the Western Alliance, European unity, the United Nations–seem to be cracking under stress. These strains go well beyond the matter of Iraq, which is not vital enough to wreak such damage. In fact, the debate is not about Saddam anymore. It is about America and its role in the new world. To understand the present crisis, we must first grasp how the rest of the world now perceives American power.

It is true that the United States has some allies in its efforts to topple Saddam. It is also true that some of the governments opposing action in Iraq do so not for love of peace and international harmony but for more cynical reasons. France and Russia have a long history of trying to weaken the containment of Iraq to ensure that they can have good trading relations with it. France, after all, helped Saddam Hussein build a nuclear reactor that was obviously a launching pad for a weapons program. (Why would the world’s second largest oil producer need a nuclear power plant?) And France’s Gaullist tendencies are, of course, simply its own version of unilateralism.

But how to explain that the vast majority of the world, with little to gain from it, is in the Franco-Russian camp? The administration claims that many countries support the United States but do so quietly. That signals an even deeper problem. Countries are furtive in their support for the administration not because they fear Saddam Hussein but because they fear their own people. To support America today in much of the world is politically dangerous. Over the past year the United States became a campaign issue in elections in Germany, South Korea and Pakistan. Being anti-American was a vote-getter in all three places.

Look at the few countries that do publicly support us. Tony Blair bravely has forged ahead even though the vast majority of the British people disagree with him and deride him as "America’s poodle." The leaders of Spain and Italy face equally strong public opposition to their stands. Donald Rumsfeld has proclaimed, with his characteristic tactlessness, that while "old Europe"–France and Germany–might oppose U.S. policy, "new Europe" embraces them. This is not exactly right. The governments of Central Europe support Washington, but the people oppose it in almost the same numbers as in old Europe. Between 70 and 80 percent of Hungarians, Czechs and Poles are against an American war in Iraq, with or without U.N. sanction. (The Poles are more supportive in some surveys.) The administration has made much of the support of Vaclav Havel, the departing Czech president. But the incoming president, Vaclav Klaus–a pro-American, Thatcherite free-marketer–said last week that on Iraq his position is aligned with that of his people.

Some make the argument that Europeans are now pacifists, living in a "postmodern paradise," shielded from threats and unable to imagine the need for military action. But then how to explain the sentiment in Turkey, a country that sits on the Iraqi border? A longtime ally, Turkey has fought with America in conflicts as distant as the Korean War, and supported every American military action since then. But opposition to the war now runs more than 90 percent there. Despite Washington’s offers of billions of dollars in new assistance, the government cannot get parliamentary support to allow American troops to move into Iraq from Turkish bases. Or consider Australia, another crucial ally, and another country where a majority now opposes American policy. Or Ireland. Or India. In fact, while the United States has the backing of a dozen or so governments, it has the support of a majority of the people in only one country in the world, Israel. If that is not isolation, then the word has no meaning.

It is also too easy to dismiss the current crisis as one more in a series of transatlantic family squabbles that stretch back over the decades. Some in Washington have pointed out that whenever the United States has taken strong military action–for example, the deployment of Pershing nuclear missiles in Europe in the early 1980s–there was popular opposition in Europe. True, but this time it’s different. The street demonstrations and public protests of the early 1980s made for good television images. But the reality was that in most polls, 30 to 40 percent of Europeans supported American policies. In Germany, where pacifist feelings ran sky high, 53 percent of Germans supported the Pershing deployments, according to a 1981 poll in Der Spiegel. In France, a majority supported American policy through much of Ronald Reagan’s two terms, even prefer-ring him to the Democratic candidate, Walter Mondale, in 1984.

Josef Joffe, one of Germany’s leading commentators, observes that during the cold war anti-Americanism was a left-wing phenomenon. "In contrast to it, there was always a center-right that was anti-communist and thus pro-American," he explains. "The numbers waxed and waned, but you always had a solid base of support for the United States." The cold war kept Europe pro-American. For example, 1968 was a time of mass protests against American policies in Vietnam, but it was also the year of the Soviet invasion of Czechoslovakia. Europeans (and Asians) could oppose America, but their views were balanced by wariness of the Soviet threat and communist behavior. Again, the polls bear this out. European opposition even to the Vietnam War never approached the level of the current opposition to Iraq. This was true outside Europe as well. In Australia, for example, a majority of the public supported that country’s participation in the Vietnam War through 1971, when it withdrew its forces.

But today no such common threat exists, and support for America is far more fluid. Center-right parties might still support Washington, but many do so almost out of inertia and without much popular support for their stand. During the recent German election, Gerhard Schroder campaigned openly against America’s Iraq policy. Less noted was that his conservative opponent, Edmund Stoiber, did so as well, at one point (briefly) outflanking Schroder by saying he would not even allow American bases in Germany to participate in the war.

In one respect, I believe that the Bush administration is right: this war will look better when it is over. The military campaign will probably be less difficult than many of Washington’s opponents think. Most important, it will reveal the nature of Saddam’s barbarous regime. Prisoners and political dissidents will tell stories of atrocities. Horrific documents will come to light. Weapons of mass destruction will be found. If done right, years from now people will remember above all that America helped rid Iraq of a totalitarian dictator.

But the administration is wrong if it believes that a successful war will make the world snap out of a deep and widening mistrust and resentment of American foreign policy. A war with Iraq, even if successful, might solve the Iraq problem. It doesn’t solve the America problem. What worries people around the world above all else is living in a world shaped and dominated by one country–the United States. And they have come to be deeply suspicious and fearful of us.

PART II: THE AGE OF GENEROSITY

Most Americans have never felt more vulnerable. September 11 was not only the first attack on the American mainland in 150 years, but it was also sudden and unexpected. Three thousand civilians were brutally killed without any warning. In the months that followed, Americans worried about anthrax attacks, biological terror, dirty bombs and new suicide squads. Even now, the day-to-day rhythms of American life are frequently interrupted by terror alerts and warnings. The average American feels a threat to his physical security unknown since the early years of the republic.

Yet after 9-11, the rest of the world saw something quite different. They saw a country that was hit by terrorism, as some of them had been, but that was able to respond on a scale that was almost unimaginable. Suddenly terrorism was the world’s chief priority, and every country had to reorient its foreign policy accordingly. Pakistan had actively supported the Taliban for years; within months it became that regime’s sworn enemy. Washington announced that it would increase its defense budget by almost $50 billion, a sum greater than the total annual defense budget of Britain or Germany. A few months later it toppled a regime 6,000 miles away–almost entirely from the air–in Afghanistan, a country where the British and Soviet empires were bogged down at the peak of their power. It is now clear that the current era can really have only one name, the unipolar world–an age with only one global power. America’s position today is unprecedented. A hundred years ago, Britain was a superpower, ruling a quarter of the globe’s population. But it was still only the second or third richest country in the world and one among many strong military powers. The crucial measure of military might in the early 20th century was naval power, and Britain ruled the waves with a fleet as large as the next two navies put together. By contrast, the United States will spend as much next year on defense as the rest of the world put together (yes, all 191 countries). And it will do so devoting 4 percent of its GDP, a low level by postwar standards.

American dominance is not simply military. The U.S. economy is as large as the next three–Japan, Germany and Britain–put together. With 5 percent of the world’s population, this one country accounts for 43 percent of the world’s economic production, 40 percent of its high-technology production and 50 percent of its research and development. If you look at the indicators of future growth, all are favorable for America. It is more dynamic economically, more youthful demographically and more flexible culturally than any other part of the world. It is conceivable that America’s lead, especially over an aging and sclerotic Europe, will actually increase over the next two decades.

Given this situation, perhaps what is most surprising is that the world has not ganged up on America already. Since the beginnings of the state system in the 16th century, international politics has seen one clear pattern–the formation of balances of power against the strong. Countries with immense military and economic might arouse fear and suspicion, and soon others coalesce against them. It happened to the Hapsburg Empire in the 17th century, France in the late 18th and early 19th century, Germany twice in the early 20th century, and the Soviet Union in the latter half of the 20th century. At this point, most Americans will surely protest: "But we’re different!" Americans–this writer included–think of themselves as a nation that has never sought to occupy others, and that through the years has been a progressive and liberating force. But historians tell us that all dominant powers thought they were special. Their very success confirmed for them that they were blessed. But as they became ever more powerful, the world saw them differently. The English satirist John Dryden described this phenomenon in a poem set during the Biblical King David’s reign. "When the chosen people grew too strong," he wrote, "The rightful cause at length became the wrong."

Has American power made its rightful cause turn into wrong? Will America simply have to learn to live in splendid isolation from the resentments of the world? This is certainly how some Americans see things. And it’s true that some of the opposition to the United States is thinly veiled envy. "Scratch an anti-American in Europe, and very often all he wants is a guest professorship at Harvard or to have an article published in The New York Times," says Denis MacShane, Britain’s minister for Europe.

But there lies a deep historical fallacy in the view that "they hate us because we are strong." After all, U.S. supremacy is hardly a recent phenomenon. America has been the leading world power for almost a century now. By 1900 the United States was the richest country in the world. By 1919 it had decisively intervened to help win the largest war in history. By 1945 it had led the Allies to victory in World War II. For 10 years thereafter America accounted for 50 percent of world GDP, a much larger share than it holds today.

Yet for five decades after World War II, there was no general rush to gang up against the United States. Instead countries joined with Washington to confront the Soviet Union, a much poorer country (at best comprising 12 percent of world GDP, or a quarter the size of the American economy). What explains this? How–until now–did America buck the biggest trend in international history?

To answer this question, go back to 1945. When America had the world at its feet, Franklin Delano Roosevelt and Harry Truman chose not to create an American imperium, but to build a world of alliances and multilateral institutions. They formed the United Nations, the Bretton Woods system of economic cooperation and dozens of other international organizations. America helped get the rest of the world back on its feet by pumping out vast amounts of aid and private investment. The centerpiece of this effort, the Marshall Plan, amounted to $120 billion in today’s dollars.

Not least of these efforts was the special attention given to diplomacy. Consider what it must have meant for Franklin Roosevelt–at the pinnacle of power–to go halfway across the world to Tehran and Yalta to meet with Churchill and Stalin in 1943 and 1945. Roosevelt was a sick man, paralyzed from the waist down, hauling 10 pounds of steel braces on his legs. Traveling for 40 hours by sea and air took the life out of him. He did not have to go. He had plenty of deputies–Marshall, Eisenhower–who could have done the job. And he certainly could have summoned the others closer to him. But FDR understood that American power had to be coupled with a generosity of spirit. He insisted that British commanders like Montgomery be given their fair share of glory in the war. He brought China into the United Nations Security Council, even though it was a poor peasant society, because he believed that it was important to have the largest Asian country properly represented within a world body.

The standard set by Roosevelt and his generation endured. When George Marshall devised the Marshall Plan, he insisted that America should not dictate how its money be spent, but rather that the initiatives and control should lie with Europeans. For decades thereafter, the United States has provided aid, technical know-how and assistance across the world. It has built dams, funded magazines and sent scholars and students abroad so that people got to know America and Americans. It has paid great deference to its allies who were in no sense equals. It has conducted joint military exercises, even when they added little to U.S. readiness. For half a century, American presidents and secretaries of State have circled the globe and hosted their counterparts in a never-ending cycle of diplomacy.

Of course, all these exertions served our interests, too. They produced a pro-American world that was rich and secure. They laid the foundations for a booming global economy in which America thrives. But it was an enlightened self-interest that took into account the interests of others. Above all, it reassured countries–through word and deed, style and substance–that America’s mammoth power need not be feared.

PART III: WHERE BUSH WENT WRONG

George W. Bush came into office with few developed ideas about foreign policy. He didn’t seem much interested in the world. During the years that his father was envoy to China, ambassador to the United Nations, director of the CIA and vice president, Bush traveled two or three times outside the country. Candidate Bush’s vision amounted mostly to carving out positions different from his predecessor. Many conservatives thought the Clinton administration was over-involved in the world, especially in nation-building, and hectoring in its diplomacy. So Bush argued that America should be "a humble nation," scale back its commitments abroad and not involve itself in rebuilding other countries.

Yet other conservatives, a number of whom became powerful within the administration, had a more sweeping agenda. Since the early ’90s, they had argued that the global landscape was marked by two realities. One was American power. The post-cold-war world was overwhelmingly unipolar. The other was the spread of new international treaties and laws. The end of the cold war had given a boost to efforts to create a global consensus on topics like war crimes, land mines and biological weapons. Both observations were accurate. From them, however, these Bush officials drew the strange conclusion that America had little freedom to move in this new world. "The picture it painted in its early months was of a behemoth thrashing about against constraints that only it could see," notes the neoconservative writer Robert Kagan. For much of the world, it was mystifying to hear the most powerful country in the history of the world speak as though it were a besieged nation, boxed in on all sides.

In its first year the administration withdrew from five international treaties–and did so as brusquely as it could. It reneged on virtually every diplomatic effort that the Clinton administration had engaged in, from North Korea to the Middle East, often overturning public statements from Colin Powell supporting these efforts. It developed a language and diplomatic style that seemed calculated to offend the world. (President Bush has placed a portrait of Theodore Roosevelt in the White House. TR’s most famous words of advice are worth recalling: "Speak softly and carry a big stick.") Key figures in the administration rarely traveled, foreign visitors were treated to perfunctory office visits, and state dinners were unheard of. On an annual basis, George W. Bush has visited fewer foreign countries than any president in 40 years. Still, he does better than Dick Cheney, who has been abroad only once since becoming vice president.

September 11 only added a new layer of assertiveness to Bush’s foreign policy. Understandably shocked and searching for responses, the administration decided that it needed total freedom of action. When NATO, for the first time in its history, invoked the self-defense clause and offered America carte-blanche assistance, the administration essentially ignored it. It similarly marginalized NATO in the Afghan war. NATO has its limitations, which were powerfully revealed during the Kosovo campaign, but the signal this sent to our closest allies was that America didn’t need them. Thus as seen by the rest of the world, 9-11 had a distressingly paradoxical effect. It produced a mobilization of American power and yet a narrowing of American interests. Suddenly, Washington was more powerful and determined to act. But it would act only for its own core security and even pre-emptively when it needed to. Bush later announced an expansive, vague Wilsonian vision–which has merit–but his style and methods overshadowed its potential promise.

The Bush administration could reasonably point out that it doesn’t get enough credit for reaching out to the rest of the world. President Bush has, after all, worked with the United Nations on Iraq, increased foreign aid by 50 percent, announced a $15 billion AIDS program and formally endorsed a Palestinian state. Yet none of these actions seems to earn him any good will. The reason for this is plain. In almost every case, the administration comes to multilateralism grudgingly, reluctantly, and with a transparent lack of sincerity. For a year now, President Bush has dismissed the notion that he should make any effort toward a Middle East peace process, even though it would have defused some of the anti-Americanism in the region as he sought to confront Iraq. Suddenly last week, to gain allies on Iraq and at the insistence of Tony Blair, Bush made a belated gesture toward the peace process. Is it surprising that people are not hailing this last-minute conversion?

Nowhere has this appearance of diplomatic hypocrisy been more striking than on Iraq. The president got high marks for his superb speech at the Security Council last September, urging the United Nations to get serious about enforcing its resolutions on Iraq and to try inspections one last time. Unfortunately, that appeal had been preceded by speeches by Cheney and comments by Rumsfeld calling inspections a sham–statements that actually contradicted American policy–and making clear that the administration had decided to go to war. The only debate was whether to have the United Nations rubber-stamp this policy. To make matters worse, weeks after the new U.S.-sponsored U.N. resolution calling for fresh inspections, the administration began large-scale deployments on Iraq’s border. Diplomatically, it had promised a good-faith effort to watch how the inspections were going; militarily, it was gearing up for war with troops that could not stay ready in the desert forever. Is it any wonder that other countries, even those that would be willing to endorse a war with Iraq, have felt that the diplomacy was a charade, pursued simply to allow time for military preparations?

President Bush’s favorite verb is "expect." He announces peremptorily that he "expects" the Palestinians to dump Yasir Arafat, "expects" countries to be with him or against him, "expects" Turkey to cooperate. It is all part of the administration’s basic approach toward foreign policy, which is best described by the phrase used for its war plan–"shock and awe." The notion is that the United States needs to intimidate countries with its power and assertiveness, always threatening, always denouncing, never showing weakness. Donald Rumsfeld often quotes a line from Al Capone: "You will get more with a kind word and a gun than with a kind word alone."

But should the guiding philosophy of the world’s leading democracy really be the tough talk of a Chicago mobster? In terms of effectiveness, this strategy has been a disaster. It has alienated friends and delighted enemies. Having traveled around the world and met with senior government officials in dozens of countries over the past year, I can report that with the exception of Britain and Israel, every country the administration has dealt with feels humiliated by it. "Most officials in Latin American countries today are not anti-American types," says Jorge Castaneda, the reformist foreign minister of Mexico, who resigned two months ago. "We have studied in the United States or worked there. We like and understand America. But we find it extremely irritating to be treated with utter contempt." Last fall, a senior ambassador to the United Nations, in a speech supporting America’s position on Iraq, added an innocuous phrase that could have been seen as deviating from that support. The Bush administration called up his foreign minister and demanded that he be formally reprimanded within an hour. The ambassador now seethes when he talks about U.S. arrogance. Does this really help America’s cause in the world? There are dozens of stories like this from every part of the world.

In diplomacy, style is often substance. Consider this fact: the Clinton administration used force on three important occasions–Bosnia, Haiti and Kosovo. In none of them did it take the matter to the United Nations Security Council, and there was little discussion that it needed to do so. Indeed, Kofi Annan later made statements that seemed to justify the action in Kosovo, explaining that state sovereignty should not be used as a cover for humanitarian abuses. Today Annan has (wrongly) announced that American action in Iraq outside the United Nations will be "illegal." While the Clinton administration–or the first Bush administration–was assertive in many ways, people did not seek assurances about its intentions. The Bush administration does not bear all the blame for this dramatic change in attitudes. Because of 9-11, it has had to act forcefully on the world stage and assert American power. But that should have been all the more reason to adopt a posture of consultation and cooperation while doing what needed to be done. The point is to scare our enemies, not terrify the rest of the world.

PART IV: THE WAY TO BUCK HISTORY

In 1992, Paul Wolfowitz, then a senior official in the first Bush administration, authored a Pentagon document that argued that in an era of overwhelming American dominance, U.S. foreign policy should be geared toward maintaining our advantage and discouraging the rise of other great powers. The premise behind this strategy is perfectly sensible. The United States should attempt to lengthen its era of supremacy for as long as it can. Any country would try to do the same (though a wise one would not be foolish enough to announce it). For that reason, the elder Bush ordered the Pentagon to water down the document so that it was not quite so arrogant.

In principle, American power is not simply good for America; it is good for the world. Most of the problems the world faces today–from terrorism to AIDS to nuclear proliferation–will be solved not with less U.S. engagement but with more. The lesson of the 1990s–of Bosnia, Kosovo, East Timor, Rwanda–is surely that American action, with all its flaws, is better than inaction. Other countries are simply not ready or able, at this point, to take on the challenges and burdens of leadership. Around the world, people understand this. In a global survey taken last year, the most intriguing–and unreported–finding was that large majorities of people in most countries thought that the world would be a more dangerous place if there were a rival to the American superpower. Sixty-four percent of the French, 70 percent of Mexicans, 63 percent of Jordanians felt this way. (Ironically, old Europe was more pro-American on this issue than new Europe. Only 27 percent of Bulgarians agreed.)

The real question is how America should wield its power. For the past half century it has done so through alliances and global institutions and in a consensual manner. Now it faces new challenges–and not simply because of what the Bush administration has done. The old order is changing. The alliances forged during the cold war are weakening. Institutions built to reflect the realities of 1945–such as the U.N. Security Council–risk becoming anachronistic. But if the administration wishes to further weak–en and indeed destroy these institutions and traditions–by dismissing or neglecting them–it must ask itself: What will take their place? By what means will America maintain its hegemony?

For some in the administration, the answer is obvious: America will act as it chooses, using what allies it can find in any given situation. As a statement of fact this is sometimes the only approach Washington will be able to employ. But it is not a durable long-term strategy. It would require America to build new alliances and arrangements every time it faced a crisis. More important, operating in a conspicuously unconstrained way, in service of a strategy to maintain primacy, will paradoxically produce the very competition it hopes to avoid. The last two years are surely instructive. The Bush administration’s swagger has generated international opposition and active measures to thwart its will. Though countries like France and Russia cannot become great-power competitors simply because they want to–they need economic and military strength–they can use what influence they have to disrupt American policy, as they are doing over Iraq. In fact, the less responsibility we give them, the more freedom smaller powers have to make American goals difficult to achieve.

In many cases the United States simply can’t "go it alone." The current crises over North Korea, Iran’s nuclear program and the leakage of fissile materials from Russia are all good examples. And while the United States can act largely by itself in certain special circumstances, such as Iraq, the fewer allies, bases and air rights it has, the higher the costs will be in American lives and treasure. And those costs will become unbearable if the United States has to both wage war and pay for postwar reconstruction on its own.

The war on terror has given the United States a core security interest in the stability of societies. Failed states can become terrorist havens. That means we must focus attention and expenditures on nation-building. For all its flaws, the United Nations is doing on-the-ground work to create stable societies in Afghanistan, Kosovo, Cambodia and Mozambique–and for the most part, it’s succeeding. The European Union and Japan pay most of these bills. Were Washington to move to an entirely ad hoc approach, why would the rest of the world agree to clean up its messes?

Fighting terror also requires constant cooperation with countries across the globe. America could not have captured Qaeda strategist Khalid Shaikh Mohammed without the active partnership of Pakistan. And yet if you ask Pakistanis what they have gotten for this, they will point out that American tariffs continue to strangle their textile industry and U.S. aid remains meager. Having asked for help in de-Islamizing their education system–a matter of crucial concern to America–they have received little. Meanwhile the overall tone of Bush administration foreign policy has made General Musharraf embarrassed to be pro-American.

The last point is perhaps the most crucial one. Being pro-American should not be a political liability for our allies. The diplomatic fiasco over Turkey is an excellent example. For well over a year now it has been obvious to anyone watching that the Turkish people were deeply opposed to a war in Iraq. Yet the administration assumed that it could bully or bribe Turkey into giving it basing rights. But Turkey over the last year has become more democratic. The military is less willing to overrule politicians. The new ruling party, AK, is more open to internal debate than Turkey’s other parties. It allowed its members to vote freely on the motion to allow America basing rights, only to have it defeated. Since more than 90 percent of the Turks oppose giving America basing rights, this should not have been surprising. The administration wants democracy in the Middle East. Well, it got it.

As usual, diplomatic style played a role. "The way the U.S. has been conducting the negotiations has been, in general, humiliating," says a retired senior diplomat, Ozdem Sanberk.

The costs of this mishap are real. If Turkey allowed America to open a second front, we could end the war more quickly and with fewer casualties, and the thorny issues relating to Turkish-Kurdish relations could be more easily handled. But the larger lesson is surely that in an increasingly democratic world American power must be seen as legitimate not only by other governments but by their people. Does America really want a world in which it gets its way in the face of constant public anger only by twisting arms, offering bribes and allying with dictators?

There are many specific ways for the United States to rebuild its relations with the world. It can match its military buildup with diplomatic efforts that demonstrate its interest and engagement in the world’s problems. It can stop oversubsidizing American steelworkers, farmers and textile-mill owners, and open its borders to goods from poorer countries. But above all, it must make the world comfortable with its power by leading through consensus. America’s special role in the world–its ability to buck history–is based not simply on its great strength, but on a global faith that this power is legitimate. If America squanders that, the loss will outweigh any gains in domestic security. And this next American century could prove to be lonely, brutish and short.

For the most part, I think the author, Fareed Zakaria, makes sense, and I agree with most of the thoughts expressed in this article.

However, I think he misses a crucial point in why other nations mistrust, and dislike the US. I also think it has to do with the fear that comes with effective uses of offensive forces vs. having defensive/peacekeeping forces. While European nations spend substantial sums on their militaries, these forces consist of troops and tanks and airplanes, and not on smart bombs and predator drones and attack helicopters. Stated simply, both Israel and the US can and have attacked people, and have the capability of doing so in the future.

Regardless of motive and intent, good or bad, or how much we did business with someone else, if they could do something bad to someone else that I can't do, I'm going to be scared of them. I think that is the best explanation for the numbers at the beginning of this thread, and a part of the explanation for anti-Americanism around the globe and anti-Israelism among nations that are not sworn enemies of Israel.

You don't see other nations developing tactical nukes and practicing pre-emptive strikes, do ya? As for the Isrealis, I am so fed up with there fanaticism I choose to refrain from speech, as it would rapidly devolve into a tirade..
As a non-theist, this "chosen people, city on the hill, God bless us,.." attitude widely held and revived throughout U.S. and Jewish history scares the shit out of me! Don't you people know zealotry when you see it?
I'm with the E.U. on this one, although I still believe America has the potential to be the bastion of peace and liberty that we pretend to be. I love America, but I love other places as well..

Quote:

Originally posted by skinbag
You don't see other nations developing tactical nukes and practicing pre-emptive strikes, do ya?

http://news.independent.co.uk/europe...p?story=457980

Quote:

France is preparing to change its policy on nuclear weapons to include a threat to unleash first strikes against "rogue states",

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3159044.stm

Quote:

Russian Defence Minister Sergei Ivanov has said his country does not rule out a pre-emptive military strike anywhere in the world if the national interest demands it.
He said that Russia faced foreign interference in its internal affairs and instability in neighbouring states as well as classic threats such as the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction, international terrorism and the drugs trade

President Vladimir Putin, who met Mr Ivanov on Thursday, added that the Russian military still possessed a formidable nuclear arsenal.

A report by the Defence Ministry also called on Nato to review its strategy, warning that otherwise it would be necessary to pursue "a radical reconstruction of Russian military planning, including changes in Russian nuclear strategy".

The funny part in finding the links for these was seeing how many people thought the US was going to use nukes in Iraq. :lol:

France and russia are only talking about pre-emption because the u.s. set the precedent. There's more evidence as to the u.s.'s effect on world peace.

Quote:

The funny part in finding the links for these was seeing how many people thought the US was going to use nukes in Iraq.

Why is that funny? I saw a press conference where donny "whalberg" rumsfeld was questioned about current research being done to develop low yield tactical nukes. He said they would be valuable for our efforts in iraq. If we had them we very well might have used them. And then we would have set a precedent making the use of nuclear weapons much more acceptable.

Is it still difficult to see the u.s. as a threat to world peace?

Quote:

Originally posted by eple
The nation of Israel isn't "the Jews" that's like saying germany 1939 was "the Christians". Israel is a state who defend their actinos through zionism. This is not a question about anti-semitism, but anti-zionism. I have no problem being anti-zionite, these guys are fanatics, and should be stopped. I am sick and tired of ignorants claiming that Europe must be anti-semite because the general opinion is that Israel need to stop the oppression of Paslestinians. Would I have to be anti-christian to be against Hitler?

I didn't say that people that oppose Israel's policies are anti-semitic. I said that a rather large percentage of Muslims are. In my country alone, one only has to look at the many stories about Dutch teachers being (verbally or even physically) attacked when they want to teach some of the Islamic kids in this country about the Holocaust...

Try and explain to me how they are *not* anti-semitic when they beat an American orthodox Jew to death (!) during an anti-Israel demonstration in Amsterdam. Or when they mock and attack anyone looking even remotely Jewish. That's not the native Dutch people doing that, that's mostly Muslim immigrants.

/rant

Oh, and I am sick and tired of ignorants claiming that Israel is oppressing the Palestinians and that everything will be just fine if they stop that... But you don't hear me complaining, now do you? ;)

Quote:

Originally posted by eple
His regime built on christianity. They even included the bible in some of their crazy theories of Aryan superiority. Gott mit uns, remember?

I seem to remember he built the the regime around the cult, but I'll take your word for it.

Quote:

Originally posted by Dragonlich

Oh, and I am sick and tired of ignorants claiming that Israel is oppressing the Palestinians and that everything will be just fine if they stop that... But you don't hear me complaining, now do you? ;)

I'll ignore the moronic rant, and move on to the slightly more constructive part of your post.

Yes: Israel is oppressing the palestinians. You have to be blind not to see how the palestinians are being harassed and attacked daily in their own country. I won't really argue too much with you on that, as there is little point discussing with fanatics. It does upset me greatly though, to see someone ignorant to the crimes being done by the Israelis. I do believe things will improve if less refugee camps are razed, less children are killed, less settlemtes are being built and less people made homeless. Maybe if the Israeli (and the palestinians) were less eager to build walls (literally) and more eager to build bridges between their cultures, things might work out. And just for the record (because that idiotic question somehow always comes up somewhere in these debates), I am not defending sucide bombers.

edit: this probably ended up as a rant too, so /rant

Quote:

Originally posted by Mojo_PeiPei
I seem to remember he built the the regime around the cult, but I'll take your word for it.

Huh? Sorry but didn't understand. What cult?

He wasn't big into Christianity, he tried to inspire his people through Norse Mythology and the occult*(thats what I meant).

http://www.freemasonrywatch.org/thenewage.html

Quote:

Nazism and the New Age

While most Jews are sure that Hitler represented the Christian community, his associates knew better. In this section we see not only that Hitler rejected Christianity, but that there is also ample research showing that Hitler founded far more than a political regime - the Third Reich was an occult-based religious movement to usher in the same New Age examined in this series.
....
Hitler turned against Christianity from his early teens and sought his destiny in the occult. He later joined with associates who also embraced those teachings, and together they built a state guided by the same occultic principles and goals repeated in today's NA. And no wonder, because he drew on the same esoteric sources as the NAers of today.
...
According to available sources (see above), Hitler first made contact in 1909 with other occultists, the first of these being Goerg Lanz von Lieberfels and Guido von List, after coming across their occultic-racist magazine _Ostara_ in Vienna. (Sklar, p.5. For samples of the typical copy published in _Ostara_, and how Hitler later echoes it, see p.17-22) Besides his publishing activities, Lanz was known for starting a society called the "Order of New Templars" which imitated the traditions of occultic Grail lore. Lanz would later claim credit for influencing Nazi ideology - a claim which has some merit considering that one of his books was found in Hitler's personal library (now archived in the Library of Congress in Washington, DC). As for List, he founded the "Armanen", a Germanic pagan priestly order which apparently accepted Hitler into their brotherhood; evidence is in another occultic book from Hitler's library bearing an inscription from a comrade to Adolf, "my dear Armanen brother."
...
By 1913, Adolf had passed the novice stage in his occult pursuits. (Carr, p.95) In 1918 (age 29) he claimed to hear voices announcing that he was "selected by God to be Germany's messiah" (Carr, p.36); later he made contact with an "ascended master" whom he identified as Lucifer or "the beast from the pit". He eventually became convinced he was the reincarnation of Woden (or, Woton). At some point, he discovered two German occultists who eloquently expressed his own understanding of Aryan religion and destiny: Richard Wagner [details later] and Friedrich Nietzsche.

True dat. Christianity was still the main religion among Germans in Hitler Germany, regardless of what occult intersts were held by Hitler himself. The Germans prided themselves of having thg Christian god by their side.

Quote:

Originally posted by Ustwo
These are the same Europeans who helped kill 6 million Jews right?

Get over it. That has NOTHING to do with what is going on in Palestine.

The Russians lost something like 25 million people, far far more than the Jews.

Quote:

Man, give it up already.....

"Your grandfather owes my grandfather his ass" Sorry, the statuate of limitations has expired on European gratitude, they are allowed to have their own opinions without blindly bowing down and kissing uncle sam's ass.

Quote:

Originally posted by seretogis
I'd like to see the United States pull out every single soldier from every country that we have our fingers in. Not that it would help -- we would then be seen as greedy isolationists that threaten world peace by not involving ourselves in every two-bit country's conflict. The US cannot win a propaganda war that is this idiotic.

PLEASE DO.

I can think of no country that wants the US military on its soil.

It's all about protecting american interests, the money. Always has been, always will be.

Quote:

Originally posted by james t kirk
PLEASE DO.

I can think of no country that wants the US military on its soil.

It's all about protecting american interests, the money. Always has been, always will be.

Don't suppose you've noticed how much hell it causes when we even threaten to remove troops from most areas. Have you looked at the lengths some nations have gone to to keep our troops on their soil. Some really recently! Ask Germany.

Or look at South Korea. The people want us out of there, you know who else does too??? Kim Jong Ill. BTW James Russians had 8 million civilian casulities, 12 million military.

Quote:

Originally posted by Mojo_PeiPei
Or look at South Korea. The people want us out of there, you know who else does too??? Kim Jong Ill. BTW James Russians had 8 million civilian casulities, 12 million military.

You're right about south Korea, i stand corrected.

Germany, hmm, not according to my German friends. But the Germans probably do like the money added to their economy by the US military presence.

Quote:

Originally posted by james t kirk
You're right about south Korea, i stand corrected.

Germany, hmm, not according to my German friends. But the Germans probably do like the money added to their economy by the US military presence.

The U.S. won't leave Germany for one reason, and it has nothing to do with economics. It's the Wolfowitz doctrine, and its the same reason we went to Iraq. With our Presence in Europe (and Iraq) Europe hsa no need for a strong standing army if we are going to be doing all the hard police (same thing in Iraq in regards to Western Europe and Japan/Eastern Asia). Aslong as we have a standing force in their backyard they have a weaker military, thus we remain top dawg~!

Quote:

Originally posted by eple
I'll ignore the moronic rant, and move on to the slightly more constructive part of your post.

You'll ignore my "moronic rant", even though it's a response to your anger over my supposed attack? The rant isn't moronic, it shows a pattern of anti-semitism in (at the very least) Dutch muslim kids. If we combine this fact with what we know of many muslims in the middle east, who are always blaming "the Jews" for everything Israel does, and the recent comments by the former Malaysian President, that "the Jews" rule the world by proxy (which every single Muslim leader attending the speech applauded!), it is hardly surprising that many Jews see attacks against Israel as attacks against them. Whatevery Israel does somehow relates to them - they end up being blamed (and attacked).

Again, I'm not saying that everyone attacking Israel *is* anti-semitic (far from it), I'm just saying that (verbal) attacks on Israel and attacks on Jews in general are often related. The Jews have always been attacked, throughout their history, and they can see the storm-clouds forming. Whether these clouds represent a true anti-Jewish campaign, or are simply figments of their paranoid imagination, remains to be seen. But you can hardly expect them to wait and see. They tried that before, and we all know how that ended.

OK
We've gone back overboard.
Let's nix the name calling and negative references,
and have an intelligent debate.

You all know how to be calm adults...please, prove it.
If you can't be here, how can you think "real" diplomats & leaders deal with it?
Show them how it's done.