Democrates shy away from gun control - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Food Eater Lad · 10-30-2003, 02:31 PM

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2003Oct25.html

Quote:

Democratic Hopefuls Play Down Gun Control

By Jim VandeHei
Washington Post Staff Writer
Sunday, October 26, 2003; Page A01

MANCHESTER, N.H. -- Democratic presidential candidates are distancing themselves from tough gun control, reversing a decade of rhetoric and advocacy by the Democratic Party in favor of federal regulation of firearms.

Most Democratic White House hopefuls rarely highlight gun control in their campaigns, and none of the candidates who routinely poll near the top is calling for the licensing of new handgun owners, a central theme of then-Vice President Al Gore's winning primary campaign in 2000.

Howard Dean, the early front-runner this year, proudly tells audiences that the National Rifle Association endorsed him as governor of Vermont. As president, Dean said he would leave most gun laws to the states. The federal government, Dean said in an interview here, should not "inflict regulations" on states such as Montana and Vermont, where gun crime is not a big problem. New York and California "can have as much gun control as they want," but those states -- and not the federal government -- should make that determination, he said.

Rep. Richard A. Gephardt, a longtime gun control advocate, is careful to highlight his support for law-abiding gun owners. The Missouri Democrat said he is not interested in giving the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives more authority to investigate gun crimes, a top priority for the gun control activist. "They have enough," he said in an interview.

As a result, Democratic strategists and several of the candidates themselves predict the debate over gun laws in this campaign will be less divisive. Democrats might fight for narrow proposals to make guns safer and more difficult for children and criminals to obtain, they said, yet voters are likely to hear as much about enforcing existing gun laws as creating new ones -- a position Republicans and the NRA have pushed for years.

"What you are seeing . . . is a sea change" from the 1990s, when President Bill Clinton and Gore championed several major gun laws -- and paid a big political price for it, said Wayne LaPierre, executive vice president of the NRA.

"It's very important for us as Democrats to understand that where I come from guns are about a lot more than guns themselves," said Sen. John Edwards (N.C.), one of nine Democrats seeking the presidency. "They are about independence. For a lot of people who work hard for a living, one of the few things they feel they have any control over is whether they can buy a gun and hunt. They don't want people messing with that, which I understand."

The change holds true in Congress, too. Many Democrats are playing down gun issues there, and several, including Senate Minority Leader Thomas A. Daschle (S.D.), are co-sponsoring a bill to shield gun manufacturers from lawsuits, a top NRA priority for the 108th Congress. In the 2002 congressional races, 94 percent of NRA-endorsed candidates won.

In the presidential race, several candidates said the gun issue contributed to Gore's defeat in 2000 and could backfire on the party again next year if Democrats do not quickly lose their anti-gun image .

Indeed, the Democrats' shift away from gun control is rooted more in politics than in a belief that gun laws do not help prevent crime and death, several Democrats said privately. It started after the 1994 elections, when Democrats lost control of the House and watched such veterans as then-Speaker Thomas S. Foley (Wash.) get ousted after the Democratic-controlled House passed legislation making it illegal to "manufacture, transfer or possess" 19 semiautomatic firearms. The bill, which Clinton signed into law, does not apply to the sale or possession of weapons legally held before the ban took effect.

Surveys showed that the gun issue played a huge if not decisive role in ending the Democrats' decades-long rule of the House that year. Still, many Democrats continued to target guns as a key contributor to violence and death, a belief reinforced for many by the 1999 Columbine shootings. Gore was among those leading the charge for new restrictions.

In the 2000 presidential primaries, Gore and former senator Bill Bradley (N.J.) engaged in what sounded to some like a bidding war for who would clamp down the hardest on handguns. Gore tried to distance himself from the gun issue in the waning months of his campaign against George W. Bush, but it was too late.

A key turning point in the debate over federal laws regulating guns came on election night, when Gore lost West Virginia, Arkansas and even his home state of Tennessee. Many of today's candidates blame the gun issue, in part, for Gore's defeat in those states and others. Gephardt said there's "no doubt" it "hurt" Gore.

As the candidates survey the map for 2004, they find that most competitive states are home to thousands of hunters and other gun owners -- states such as Ohio, Pennsylvania and New Mexico. Moreover, many of the gun owners in these swing states belong to labor unions, a base of the Democratic Party. Based on NRA estimates, LaPierre said as much as three-quarters of union households in some targeted states include gun owners. Some union strategists have privately told the candidates that the only way to win in these states is to back off guns.
Some gun control advocacy groups said Democrats are misreading the politics, pointing to rural states with high populations of gun owners such as Michigan, which Gore won. Several candidates and strategists disagreed with that assessment, however.

"The gun issue is the silent killer" of Democrats, said Deborah Barron of Americans for Gun Safety, which is tutoring candidates on the gun issue. "Democrats will be extinct in red states unless" they change how gun owners view their party. "Red states" is political shorthand for states President Bush won. These red states have a significantly higher percentage of gun owners than the states Gore won in 2000, studies show.

In a new national poll, Americans for Gun Safety -- which was created by the founder of Monster.com -- found gun owners by huge margins see Democrats as the party that wants to ban guns and blame law-abiding gun owners for crime problems.

The centrist Democratic Leadership Council, which helped moderate the party's image on trade and taxes in the 1990s, is teaming with Americans for Gun Safety to try to do the same for gun control. Dean and most of his rivals have privately consulted with one or both of the groups on a new approach. Former American for Guns Safety spokesman Matt Bennett recently signed on as communications director for retired Army Gen. Wesley K. Clark.

The two groups do not think the candidates should run away from the issue by staying silent, which many are doing on the campaign trail. Instead, the groups are pushing a new mantra some of the candidates are adopting -- "with gun rights come responsibility."

In an interview, Sen. Joseph I. Lieberman (Conn.), Gore's running mate in 2000, said, "People have a right to own and purchase guns . . . but it comes with responsibility."

Al From, who runs the DLC, recently said Democrats can turn the gun issue into an advantage if they vigorously push for gun safety and rigorous enforcement of laws while reassuring voters they stand firmly in support of the Second Amendment. The idea is to move away from broad restrictions such as mandatory registration and toward more popular and narrower ideas aimed at making guns safer and keeping them away from criminals and children, which polls show voters widely support.

In some ways, the shift is more rhetorical than substantive. Consider Dean.

While Dean appeals to the Democrats' liberal base, including many gun control activists, he portrays himself as the strongest defender of gun owners in the field.

Massachusetts Sen. John F. Kerry accused Dean of going overboard by playing to the NRA. "I don't think the Democratic Party should be the party of the NRA or walk away from our values for expedient political reasons," Kerry said.

Yet "the irony with Dean is his policy positions on guns is exactly the same as" those of his rivals, said Americans for Gun Safety policy director Jim Kessler, who surveyed the candidates' views on gun topics. "But he is making a point about his support for Second Amendment rights and vigorous enforcement. The reason? This works as a strategy."

Still, the major candidates are under constant pressure from many party activists, including major donors in the Democratic bastions of New York and California, not to retreat from the gun fight altogether.

The candidates do oppose the gun liability bill Daschle supports and favor tougher background checks on people buying firearms at gun shows (this is often referred to as "closing the gun show loophole"). Lieberman is a co-sponsor of a gun show bill.

The big test for the candidates will come as Congress begins considering whether to extend the 1994 ban on some semiautomatic weapons, which will expire next year. Some congressional Democrats want to make the law permanent and fold additional gun models and the importation of high-ammunition clips into the ban. But Bush favors a straight extension -- and that is a position many of the candidates sound willing to settle for.

"I would be happy to just extend it," Gephardt said.

See, Americans believe in the right to bear arms. And the Democrates have to reflect that if they want to be viable.

Superbelt · 10-30-2003, 02:34 PM

Guns themselves aren't the proble,

It's closing the loop holes that let kids acquire bullets and the ones that allow people to buy guns at gun shows, etc.

Food Eater Lad · 10-30-2003, 02:40 PM

Really were would a kid go to buy bullest?

j8ear · 10-30-2003, 03:02 PM

im curious about that too..

What "loop hole" allows children to buy bullets? Is this in the United States? And the gun show loop hole? What is that exactly?

-bear

Superbelt · 10-30-2003, 03:14 PM

The Columbine kids bought all their bullets at KMart.

KMart has since stopped selling bullets at their stores after Michael Moore and two kids were able to buy out one stores entire stock and delivered them all to Kmart's executive offices with media in tow.

It's all in Bowling for Columbine.

Superbelt · 10-30-2003, 03:16 PM

J8ear, there are ways that people are able to bypass the background checks for guns in some states gun shows.
I don't have all the facts about it on how that is legal.

I love my guns, have a glock and a s&w, But I do want to see our laws enforced and the things I said in my first post corrected.

j8ear · 10-30-2003, 03:17 PM

Sounds like the loop hole is Kmart not checking ID's as required by law...

What about the gun show loop hole? What is that all about?

Macheath · 10-30-2003, 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by j8ear
im curious about that too..

What "loop hole" allows children to buy bullets? Is this in the United States? And the gun show loop hole? What is that exactly?

-bear

This:

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/19...uns/print.html

Quote:

You don't have to be Sarah Brady to think gun shows need to be better regulated. According to Bob Glass, owner of Paladin Arms in Longmont, Colo., as paraphrased in the Rocky Mountain News, "Colorado gun shows are rife with unscrupulous dealers who make it easy for felons, teen-agers and others prohibited from buying firearms to snap them up if they have the cash."

Anderson bought Klebold and Harris two old shotguns -- a Savage Arms Model 67 pump shotgun and a Model 31D double-barrel shotgun -- as well as a 9 mm Hi-Point carbine rifle.

This was perfectly legal. Any 18-year-old can buy shotguns and rifles, as long as she doesn't have a felony record. And it's perfectly legal for that 18-year-old to give those guns to others, including minors -- in what is known as a "straw purchase" -- as long as she purchased the gun from a private citizen and not a licensed gun dealer.

And since Anderson was buying from an unlicensed dealer, she didn't have to fill out any forms and no records were kept. These are all legal loopholes that the NRA has fought hard to maintain.

This:

http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/...003robyn.shtml

Quote:

Authorities are still trying to make a case against Robyn Anderson, the Columbine High student who purchased three of the four weapons used by killers Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold.

Until now, Anderson has been described by police as a witness in the case.

But prosecutors and investigators told the Denver Rocky Mountain News that a loophole in federal law has stopped them -- so far -- from charging her with making an illegal "straw purchase" of a firearm.

Superbelt · 10-30-2003, 03:31 PM

http://www.candidatesonguns.org/cont...olicy_gsl.html

Quote:

If a supplier is selling from his or her private collection and the principal objective is not to make a profit, the seller is not "engaged in the business" and is not required to have a license. Because they are unlicensed, these sellers are not required to keep records of sales and are not required to perform background checks on potential buyers, even those prohibited from purchasing guns by the Gun Control Act.

But from what I have read, only 0.7% of criminals get their guns from gun shows, that is a small percentage, but I would perfer it dropped to 0.0%
The primary method criminals get their guns is from family and friends.

Superbelt · 10-30-2003, 03:34 PM

Kmart and wal mart aren't going to always have quality dealers selling their guns and bullets. Kids make mistakes and I don't think places like that should be allowed to carry guns or ammo. Only gun shops and sporting goods stores like Dicks and Gander Mountain should have any bullets or guns.

eple · 10-30-2003, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Superbelt
http://www.candidatesonguns.org/cont...olicy_gsl.html

The primary method criminals get their guns is from family and friends.

Well that sound easy to prevent.

Superbelt · 10-30-2003, 03:39 PM

And that's why this is a difficult issue because you can't prevent something like that.

Food Eater Lad · 10-30-2003, 03:47 PM

And we all know how truthful Bowling for Columbine is.....

Astrocloud · 10-30-2003, 03:47 PM

I've been a gun owner for over 20 years. Yet somehow my views on here (and other websites) get labeled as "liberal". Perhaps the Democrats are catering to my point of view.

eple · 10-30-2003, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Food Eater Lad
And we all know how truthful Bowling for Columbine is.....

He made that whole scene with them buying bullets and complaining to K-mart up too?

Superbelt · 10-30-2003, 03:50 PM

FEL, Did you even watch Bowling for Columbine? First the movie is not anti gun, Moore doesn't blame the guns. He is a gun owner himself.

He doesn't really blame anything other than fear of our fellow man.

Watch the section where Moore and the kids go out and buy the bullets. Whatever your feelings on moore, this is a truthful segment, and is backed up by the news reports that followed him while he did it.

Food Eater Lad · 10-30-2003, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Superbelt
Kmart and wal mart aren't going to always have quality dealers selling their guns and bullets. Kids make mistakes and I don't think places like that should be allowed to carry guns or ammo. Only gun shops and sporting goods stores like Dicks and Gander Mountain should have any bullets or guns.

If Kmart wants to sell guns and ammo, they should have only trained gun agents selling there wares. If they want to have kids selling the guns, then they are opening themselves up to sever lawsuits. I had to go through so many classess just to sell alchol, if K mart doesnt train its agents, then they are just morons.

Food Eater Lad · 10-30-2003, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by eple
He made that whole scene with them buying bullets and complaining to K-mart up too?

Didnt say that, just when you start quoting a lousy, biased misleading film, then you are not helping your argument.

eple · 10-30-2003, 03:52 PM

Superbelt, please, don't get him started. He is a fanatic, and he never....fucking...stops...

According to FEL, Moore is the antichrist or someone closely related.

Food Eater Lad · 10-30-2003, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Superbelt
FEL, Did you even watch Bowling for Columbine? First the movie is not anti gun, Moore doesn't blame the guns. He is a gun owner himself.

He doesn't really blame anything other than fear of our fellow man.

Watch the section where Moore and the kids go out and buy the bullets. Whatever your feelings on moore, this is a truthful segment, and is backed up by the news reports that followed him while he did it.

Read my other post. IF you quote such an inaccurat movie as a source, then your argument is going to be suspect. YEs I saw the movie and what I was was a shitty misleading man that couldnt even tuck in his shirt cast illogical aspersions that any semi intellgent person could discredit.

Food Eater Lad · 10-30-2003, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by eple
Superbelt, please, don't get him started. He is a fanatic, and he never....fucking...stops...

According to FEL, Moore is the antichrist or someone closely related.

No just a liar, and you have never proved me wrong. BUt you seem to defend a liar? Why is that?

eple · 10-30-2003, 03:55 PM

Huston, we have a derail.

Let's play along.

FEL: answer me: did Moore make up the part about them buying bullets and confronting K-mart, can you give us some proof? If he didn't, then how is it relevant what other things Moore have done?

eple · 10-30-2003, 03:57 PM

Rephrase: If Moore said that water is wet, would he be wrong because he might have lied on other issues?

Superbelt · 10-30-2003, 04:02 PM

Quote:

If Kmart wants to sell guns and ammo, they should have only trained gun agents selling there wares. If they want to have kids selling the guns, then they are opening themselves up to sever lawsuits. I had to go through so many classess just to sell alchol, if K mart doesnt train its agents, then they are just morons.

eh, I went through a 2 hour class to be able to sell alcohol.

Quote:

Superbelt, please, don't get him started. He is a fanatic, and he never....fucking...stops...

According to FEL, Moore is the antichrist or someone closely related.

Me and FEL go way back.

Food Eater Lad · 10-30-2003, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by eple
Huston, we have a derail.

Let's play along.

FEL: answer me: did Moore make up the part about them buying bullets and confronting K-mart, can you give us some proof? If he didn't, then how is it relevant what other things Moore have done?

He did use the man who was shot in columbine. So Moore did use deception to make his point. He expoited a man who was shot.

Quote:

I am completely against him (Moore). He screwed me over," said Mark Taylor, who with Richard Castaldo was featured in the Kmart segment that resulted in the removal of bullets from the retailer's shelves nationwide. "I had no idea what Moore's agenda was. And he had an agenda. He had it all planned out, completely," Taylor said. "I believe that every American has the right to have a gun. We should have the right to protect ourselves."

So he did what he does best, found a point, and used deception to make a point. Why did he deceive Mark Taylor if his case was so airtight? I assume you will defend Moore's use of lies to Taylor as you defend Moore's right to expoit other Columbine victums

eple · 10-30-2003, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Food Eater Lad
So he did what he does best, found a point, and used deception to make a point. Why did he deceive Mark Taylor if his case was so airtight? I assume you will defend Moore's use of lies to Taylor as you defend Moore's right to expoit other Columbine victums

So what is your point? What has this to do with anything that has been posted here? Do you have som sort of auto-reply bot spewing out random posts in threads where BFC is posted? None of the "facts" given contradicts anything that has been said in this thread.

Superbelt · 10-30-2003, 04:12 PM

I'm sorry FEL, but I can't believe that. I watched bowling for columbine and both kinds seemed extremely happy when they were told by Kmart that the bullets are no longer sold there.

The movie is, again, not anti-gun. Moore isn't saying we shouldn't have guns, he actually says that GUNS ARE NOT THE PROBLEM.

Food Eater Lad · 10-30-2003, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Superbelt
I'm sorry FEL, but I can't believe that. I watched bowling for columbine and both kinds seemed extremely happy when they were told by Kmart that the bullets are no longer sold there.

The movie is, again, not anti-gun. Moore isn't saying we shouldn't have guns, he actually says that GUNS ARE NOT THE PROBLEM.

You saw the edited parts? You know what Moore told the people in the film before, during and after the shots?

I am sorry, I will take Mark Talyor's word, along with the Columbine victum's mother, and the Bank Teller's words over what happened off camera than yours.

Food Eater Lad · 10-30-2003, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Superbelt

The movie is, again, not anti-gun. Moore isn't saying we shouldn't have guns, he actually says that GUNS ARE NOT THE PROBLEM.

Really then why are they showing the movie in France as proof that America has a problem with guns? I guess you are smarter than the average Frenchmen. Ask 10 people who saw the film what Moore thinks is the problem and seewhat they say. Most will tell you its an anti gun movie.

eple · 10-30-2003, 04:18 PM

So K-mart is still selling bullets, since that whole sequence was made up and shit?

Food Eater Lad · 10-30-2003, 04:19 PM

Any way back to the topic, with a rising economy, no more gun control, and most people favorable to Bush and the war in Iraq, what will the Democrates run on?

eple · 10-30-2003, 04:21 PM

No really, are they?

Or did your ramblings about Moore have nothing at all to do with the original topic?

Superbelt · 10-30-2003, 04:21 PM

Moore also points out that there are 7 million guns and only 100 or so gun deaths.

Compared to our (from my fuzzy memory so I could be wrong) 23 million guns and a staggering 11,000 gun deaths.

That tells me he is trying to say we have a psychological problem that is getting us into too many killings.

Again, FEL, have you seen Bowling for Columbine? Cause from what you are saying right now, I doubt it. I think you are going off of what others have told you.

Food Eater Lad · 10-30-2003, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by eple
So K-mart is still selling bullets, since that whole sequence was made up and shit?

I didnt say K mart wasnt selling bullets, I said Moore had to trick a victum into cooperating with him. Why would he have to do that? Use deception I mean? Why do you avoid my questions? To tell the truth I dont know what K Mart is doing as there are none within two hours drive from my house. I get all my ammo at a local gun shop.

Food Eater Lad · 10-30-2003, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Superbelt
Moore also points out that there are 7 million guns and only 100 or so gun deaths.

Compared to our (from my fuzzy memory so I could be wrong) 23 million guns and a staggering 11,000 gun deaths.

That tells me he is trying to say we have a psychological problem that is getting us into too many killings.

Again, FEL, have you seen Bowling for Columbine? Cause from what you are saying right now, I doubt it. I think you are going off of what others have told you.

Again I saw the movie, and again ask ten people what hte point is and they will tell you its an anti gun movie.

Superbelt · 10-30-2003, 06:48 PM

Then what do you think his point was when he flashed the statistics of number of guns per country and the number of deaths a year attributed to guns which showed that number of guns really didn't matter when it came to gun violence, that countries with 7 million guns can have an almost non existant gun death rate?

What was the point of those statistics if not to illustrate that it isn't the guns themselves?

j8ear · 10-30-2003, 06:58 PM

I know that bullets are available just about anywhere you can buy fishing licenses. Including wal-marts and every true-value I've seen. Each and everytime they are in locked cabinets, a special associate has to sell it and I ~almost~ always have to show a state issued ID. I don't actually know about Kmart. I fail to see how ~restricting~ where they can be bought from makes any sense. I fail to understand, frankly, how parents of teenage boys do not know there sons have guns in their house. It boggles my mind. To be so mindlessly unobservant or even uninvolved in these young men's lives.

I also have not seen 'Bowling for Columbine' despite repeated suggestions to do so, and am therefore not qualified to speak on it's merits. I have been briefed that it is mostly fiction.

Interesting point about:

Quote:

Originally posted by Superbelt
...we have a psychological problem that is getting us into too many killings.

This is what it all boils down too, I think. What is it about how our children are raised now that is different? What is better? What is worse?

-bear

Superbelt · 10-30-2003, 07:12 PM

What state are you in j8ear? In Pennsylvania, at least in the area of it that I am in, I have been through several hardware stores, including true value's, little independent ones, that have the ammo just sitting out on a shelf. No enclosures, no way of keeping kids from swiping a box or just a couple bullets.

smooth · 10-30-2003, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by j8ear
I don't actually know about Kmart. I fail to see how ~restricting~ where they can be bought from makes any sense.

This is what it all boils down too, I think. What is it about how our children are raised now that is different? What is better? What is worse?

-bear

My take on the issue is that the answer to your second question, according to Moore's point, is also where you are most likely to find the answer to the first question; that is, he isn't advocating gun (or ammo) control, per se, but rather arguing that the prevelence in our society of violent "tools" and emphasis on violence as a solution to problems leads to gun related homicides.

To that end, he seems to want ammo sold in ammo stores or bait and tackle stores where hunters and target shooters can go to buy it--not in family stores where everyone, children especially, are exposed to guns and ammo.

He might also think that the prevelence in our society leads to a conclusion that they are safe and acceptable things to purchase, trade, and handle.

But I wouldn't be surprised to find that he advocates the presence of such things in a carefully controlled setting (locked in cabinets that only adults frequent, for example) instead of glorified in popular culture. Hopefully then we could expect that people were properly trained and treated weapons with deadly respect as well as ensuring that only adults had access to them.

That's my take on the movie's message and I saw it a few times. Not only did I not notice the other stuff that people bring up, I don't think they are accurately portraying it nor do I think it even matters in any great deal.

edit: shit, how the fuck did I get caught up in this? With all the turmoil in this forum I posted in the wrong thread but ended up answering a question! Sorry, don't have anything to add to the original topic at hand...Whatever...

j8ear · 10-31-2003, 09:49 AM

You know, come to think of it, my 'locked cabinet' observation might be a little off the mark....your right, I've seen them on shelves and out in the open, available for pilfer. Cabelas (just visited the new one in PA between Harrisburg and Allentown), Bass pro shops, etc...all have aisles and aisles of ammo, these are speciality 'outfitters'. Shotgun shells, high power rifles cartridges, handgun rounds, pellets, shot, etc. I stand corrected. I'm actually in Maryland, most of the time (pass thru PA and into NYstate and Jersey often enough), and usually pick up range ammo at walmart...it's always in a locked cabinet, attended to by a special associate. Anyways, I really think that changing this whole methodology of aquiring ammo will do very little if anything to the prevelance of a violent culture. It is not a symptom of or an extenuating circumstance to the issue, imho.

There's something else I can't put my finger on...everyone is kind of lingering around it...goes back to what happened to make these kids want to blast up their classmates and teachers. Something happened somewhere along the line that their parents should have known about. Or failed to respond to, or failed to instill and teach the right things. Where were these kids parents!!!!

I don't think that legislation or government involvement will solve anything. It so rarely does. What will though...what will?

Only parents I think.

-bear

10-30-2003, 03:02 PM	#4 (permalink)
j8ear Gentlemen Farmer Location: Middle of nowhere, Jersey	im curious about that too.. What "loop hole" allows children to buy bullets? Is this in the United States? And the gun show loop hole? What is that exactly? -bear __________________ It's alot easier to ask for forgiveness then it is to ask for permission.

10-30-2003, 03:17 PM	#7 (permalink)
j8ear Gentlemen Farmer Location: Middle of nowhere, Jersey	Sounds like the loop hole is Kmart not checking ID's as required by law... What about the gun show loop hole? What is that all about? __________________ It's alot easier to ask for forgiveness then it is to ask for permission.

10-31-2003, 09:49 AM	#40 (permalink)
j8ear Gentlemen Farmer Location: Middle of nowhere, Jersey	You know, come to think of it, my 'locked cabinet' observation might be a little off the mark....your right, I've seen them on shelves and out in the open, available for pilfer. Cabelas (just visited the new one in PA between Harrisburg and Allentown), Bass pro shops, etc...all have aisles and aisles of ammo, these are speciality 'outfitters'. Shotgun shells, high power rifles cartridges, handgun rounds, pellets, shot, etc. I stand corrected. I'm actually in Maryland, most of the time (pass thru PA and into NYstate and Jersey often enough), and usually pick up range ammo at walmart...it's always in a locked cabinet, attended to by a special associate. Anyways, I really think that changing this whole methodology of aquiring ammo will do very little if anything to the prevelance of a violent culture. It is not a symptom of or an extenuating circumstance to the issue, imho. There's something else I can't put my finger on...everyone is kind of lingering around it...goes back to what happened to make these kids want to blast up their classmates and teachers. Something happened somewhere along the line that their parents should have known about. Or failed to respond to, or failed to instill and teach the right things. Where were these kids parents!!!! I don't think that legislation or government involvement will solve anything. It so rarely does. What will though...what will? Only parents I think. -bear __________________ It's alot easier to ask for forgiveness then it is to ask for permission.

10-30-2003, 02:34 PM	#2 (permalink)
Superbelt This vexes me. I am terribly vexed. Location: Grantville, Pa	Guns themselves aren't the proble, It's closing the loop holes that let kids acquire bullets and the ones that allow people to buy guns at gun shows, etc.

10-30-2003, 02:40 PM	#3 (permalink)
Food Eater Lad Banned	Really were would a kid go to buy bullest?

10-30-2003, 03:14 PM	#5 (permalink)
Superbelt This vexes me. I am terribly vexed. Location: Grantville, Pa	The Columbine kids bought all their bullets at KMart. KMart has since stopped selling bullets at their stores after Michael Moore and two kids were able to buy out one stores entire stock and delivered them all to Kmart's executive offices with media in tow. It's all in Bowling for Columbine.

10-30-2003, 03:16 PM	#6 (permalink)
Superbelt This vexes me. I am terribly vexed. Location: Grantville, Pa	J8ear, there are ways that people are able to bypass the background checks for guns in some states gun shows. I don't have all the facts about it on how that is legal. I love my guns, have a glock and a s&w, But I do want to see our laws enforced and the things I said in my first post corrected.

10-30-2003, 03:34 PM	#10 (permalink)
Superbelt This vexes me. I am terribly vexed. Location: Grantville, Pa	Kmart and wal mart aren't going to always have quality dealers selling their guns and bullets. Kids make mistakes and I don't think places like that should be allowed to carry guns or ammo. Only gun shops and sporting goods stores like Dicks and Gander Mountain should have any bullets or guns.

10-30-2003, 03:39 PM	#12 (permalink)
Superbelt This vexes me. I am terribly vexed. Location: Grantville, Pa	And that's why this is a difficult issue because you can't prevent something like that.

10-30-2003, 03:47 PM	#13 (permalink)
Food Eater Lad Banned	And we all know how truthful Bowling for Columbine is.....

10-30-2003, 03:47 PM	#14 (permalink)
Astrocloud Apocalypse Nerd	I've been a gun owner for over 20 years. Yet somehow my views on here (and other websites) get labeled as "liberal". Perhaps the Democrats are catering to my point of view.

10-30-2003, 03:50 PM	#16 (permalink)
Superbelt This vexes me. I am terribly vexed. Location: Grantville, Pa	FEL, Did you even watch Bowling for Columbine? First the movie is not anti gun, Moore doesn't blame the guns. He is a gun owner himself. He doesn't really blame anything other than fear of our fellow man. Watch the section where Moore and the kids go out and buy the bullets. Whatever your feelings on moore, this is a truthful segment, and is backed up by the news reports that followed him while he did it.

10-30-2003, 03:52 PM	#19 (permalink)
eple Banned Location: norway	Superbelt, please, don't get him started. He is a fanatic, and he never....fucking...stops... According to FEL, Moore is the antichrist or someone closely related.

10-30-2003, 03:55 PM	#22 (permalink)
eple Banned Location: norway	Huston, we have a derail. Let's play along. FEL: answer me: did Moore make up the part about them buying bullets and confronting K-mart, can you give us some proof? If he didn't, then how is it relevant what other things Moore have done?

10-30-2003, 03:57 PM	#23 (permalink)
eple Banned Location: norway	Rephrase: If Moore said that water is wet, would he be wrong because he might have lied on other issues?

10-30-2003, 04:12 PM	#27 (permalink)
Superbelt This vexes me. I am terribly vexed. Location: Grantville, Pa	I'm sorry FEL, but I can't believe that. I watched bowling for columbine and both kinds seemed extremely happy when they were told by Kmart that the bullets are no longer sold there. The movie is, again, not anti-gun. Moore isn't saying we shouldn't have guns, he actually says that GUNS ARE NOT THE PROBLEM.

10-30-2003, 04:18 PM	#30 (permalink)
eple Banned Location: norway	So K-mart is still selling bullets, since that whole sequence was made up and shit?

10-30-2003, 04:19 PM	#31 (permalink)
Food Eater Lad Banned	Any way back to the topic, with a rising economy, no more gun control, and most people favorable to Bush and the war in Iraq, what will the Democrates run on?

10-30-2003, 04:21 PM	#32 (permalink)
eple Banned Location: norway	No really, are they? Or did your ramblings about Moore have nothing at all to do with the original topic?

10-30-2003, 04:21 PM	#33 (permalink)
Superbelt This vexes me. I am terribly vexed. Location: Grantville, Pa	Moore also points out that there are 7 million guns and only 100 or so gun deaths. Compared to our (from my fuzzy memory so I could be wrong) 23 million guns and a staggering 11,000 gun deaths. That tells me he is trying to say we have a psychological problem that is getting us into too many killings. Again, FEL, have you seen Bowling for Columbine? Cause from what you are saying right now, I doubt it. I think you are going off of what others have told you.

10-30-2003, 06:48 PM	#36 (permalink)
Superbelt This vexes me. I am terribly vexed. Location: Grantville, Pa	Then what do you think his point was when he flashed the statistics of number of guns per country and the number of deaths a year attributed to guns which showed that number of guns really didn't matter when it came to gun violence, that countries with 7 million guns can have an almost non existant gun death rate? What was the point of those statistics if not to illustrate that it isn't the guns themselves?

10-30-2003, 07:12 PM	#38 (permalink)
Superbelt This vexes me. I am terribly vexed. Location: Grantville, Pa	What state are you in j8ear? In Pennsylvania, at least in the area of it that I am in, I have been through several hardware stores, including true value's, little independent ones, that have the ammo just sitting out on a shelf. No enclosures, no way of keeping kids from swiping a box or just a couple bullets.