Cuba next on Bush's hit list ?

[Arc101]

This is taken from the BBC website. So do you think Castro is one of the great evil's the world needs to be rid of ? And do you think it is right that you are not allowed the freedom of choice to go to to Cuba ?

US President George W Bush has announced fresh measures designed to hasten the end of communist rule in Cuba.
They include tightening an American travel embargo to the island, cracking down on illegal cash transfers, and a more robust information campaign aimed at Cuba.

Mr Bush said the punitive measures were being introduced because the Cuban leader, Fidel Castro, had acted with "defiance and contempt and a new round of brutal oppression that outraged world conscience".

The speech - before members of the Cuban community at the White House - came as the 2004 election campaign gets under way.

Mr Bush's advisers know that fiercely anti-Castro Cuban exiles living in the key state of Florida might well be hugely important in determining whether the president holds on to power, says the BBC's Justin Webb in Washington.

His speech today will have secured some valuable votes, our correspondent says.

Robust enforcement

Mr Bush was speaking on the day Cuba celebrates the 1868 start of its quest for independence from Spain.

"The struggle for freedom continues," the US president said.

Mr Bush said the current Cuban regime, the only one-party communist government in the Americas, would never change its policies.

US-Cuba timeline
"The Castro regime will not change by its own choice - but Cuba must change," Mr Bush promised.

The new measures announced include:

Strictly enforcing an existing US law forbidding Americans from travelling to Cuba for pleasure.

Cracking down on illegal money transfers

Imposing controls of shipments to the island.

Aggressive campaign to inform Cubans of safer routes to reach the United States

Increasing the number of Cuban immigrants in the US.

More US radio, television, satellite and internet broadcasts to break the "information embargo" Mr Castro had imposed on his people.

Beyond the more immediate measures, the US president announced he was setting up a "Commission for Assistance to a Free Cuba" to plan for the day communism would collapse.
Headed by the US secretary of state and the head of the department of housing, the new body would look ahead to the end of the regime.

International pressure

Secretary of State Colin Powell has been trying to enlist other nations in efforts to bring democracy to Cuba - and Mr Bush said more were joining.

In June, Mr Powell urged foreign ministers from the Organisation of American States meeting in Chile to join the United States in promoting a peaceful transition in Cuba.

Mr Castro ridiculed the idea, saying his country had a transition in 1959.

Cubans would be informed of safer routes to the US
On Thursday, the head of Cuba's diplomatic mission in Washington said Mr Bush should "stop acting like a lawless cowboy" and "start listening to the voices of the nations of the world".

Analysts say the votes from the 400,000 Cuban-American community in Florida - a key state - could be crucial in the 2004 presidential election.

Mr Bush's relations with his supporters in Miami are said to have reached a low in July, when Washington returned 15 migrants to Cuba after receiving assurances they would not be executed for hijacking a boat.

The president's brother, Florida Governor Jeb Bush, criticised the decision.

[apechild]

I don't feel that limiting the freedoms of Americans will improve the lives of Cubans. Let us travel, for crying out loud. Encourage free trade and open communication, and reforms will manifest themselves through the dissemination of information and culture.

Is Castro evil? Most assuredly. But travel restrictions and sanctions will do nothing to improve the situation in Cuba.

[Mr. Mojo]

Just wait for Fidel to die...someday.

Send in McDonalds and Krispy Kreme - that’s how you destroy a communist paradise

[filtherton]

Is cuba really that much worse than say, china? Last i heard china was also a pretty bad place to find yourself opposing the government. I heard the were communists too. We gave china our special economic friend status.

They're going to set up a campaign to help inform cubans of safe ways to get to america while we apparently can't kick enough mexicans out of the country?
I think this cuba nonsense is just pandering to the anti-castro exile crowd. They'll totally fall for it too.

[Ustwo]

We should have done a real invasion when we had the chance. The USSR didn't have the balls (or weapons) to stop us in 59.

While I'm a Bush supporter I agree this IS pandering to the cubans, and damn well he should, those cubans are why he won Florida (of course if the news media didn't call the state for Gore so fucking early before the panhandle polls were closed, the whole Florida issue would have been a moot point, but they always ignore that little bit of info).

[Panther_Ninja]

I dont think that cuba is a threat to us, yes it is a communist land but they have not really done anything to hurt us, but seeing how bush is a dumbass then i think he just might do something with them....hopefully not but hey who knows.

[Pacifier]

Is Bush just trying to distract from the iraq issue or what?
I mean, what kind of threat is cuba for the US? Are the going to steal your freedom with their cigars?

[Xell101]

What made the USA glorious has been perverted and is now working against us. God damnit...freiken hippies should've got their act together.

[tekaweni]

I saw someone's signature on here recently, it went like this -

"Bush. Making the world a better place, one country at a time."

[seretogis]

Originally posted by Pacifier
Is Bush just trying to distract from the iraq issue or what?
I mean, what kind of threat is cuba for the US? Are the going to steal your freedom with their cigars?

Ever hear of the cuban missle crisis? :P

[Scipio]

Short of military action, there is little the US can do to topple the Castro regime. Since Castro is able to trade with most of the rest of the world, our embargoes do little but keep the country poorer than it would otherwise be. If there's anything we ought to consider, it's this: if Cuba were to become a prosperous nation with a strong middle class, they would get rid of castro on their own. We're losing sight of the fact that our most powerful weapons for change in the world are our ideals and our culture. Not our combined arms infantry divisions and super-carrier battlegroups.

[Ustwo]

Cuba were to become a prosperous nation with a strong middle class

I used to think this as well, but where do you get a strong middle class in a communist government? Odds are you would just get a stronger government.

[Scipio]

Economic prosperity. Theoretically, communism would be able to afford a pretty decent lifestyle for everyone. It got fucked up in Russia because they started spending large portions of GDP on weapons, among other things. Productivity is really high these days, and if Cuba were to become more wealthy (trade with the US can help), it would surely benefit the average cuban. If it got opened up to tourism, that would accomplish a lot. There would be an incentive to make the place look presentable, there would be new development and construction, new jobs, money flowing in. Moreover, it would open Cuba to the US in a way that it hasn't been open before. Americans will become more aware of the place, and increase pressure for Castro to clean up his act. And he'll do it too, cause he will want to keep good relations with us, and want to keep the dollars flowing in.

I don't want it to sound like a pro-Cuba policy is a cure-all, but it's pretty clear that exiling a country from the international community isn't a good way to promote democracy, economic development, or good relations with the US. Just look at Iraq, North Korea, Iran, and others. We can't afford to have a policy driven by political pandering and old-fashioned red baiting. For one thing, it's not clear that communist countries are inherently worse than autocratic or dictatorial ones. For another, it is clear that the Cuban people specifically would welcome American influence, and that's an opportunity we can't squander. Sure, it might strengthen Castro in the short term, but he's getting old, he's not a threat, and shutting him off doesn't really accomplish anything.

[Lebell]

Originally posted by Scipio
... it's not clear that communist countries are inherently worse than autocratic or dictatorial ones...

Just a point:

Please name one communist country that is NOT run by a small group of people if not one man (i.e. a dictatorship).

And how quickly the new generation forgets (or never knew) the horrors of the gulag or the killing fields.

[Pacifier]

Originally posted by seretogis
Ever hear of the cuban missle crisis? :P

Yeah, sure, but it wasn't the cubas who were the threat back then. It was the russians who were the threat, the just "used" the cubans. I don't see any nation that could do that again.

Originally posted by Scipio
I don't want it to sound like a pro-Cuba policy is a cure-all, but it's pretty clear that exiling a country from the international community isn't a good way to promote democracy, economic development, or good relations with the US.

I agree, I think exiling them has a negative effect on any "democratic movement", exiling gives them a feeling of "everyone is against us, lets stick closer together" and therefore hampers any try to change Cuba.
Trade and tourism would bring new ideas to them and perhaps start a "soft revolution" plus it would prepare Cuba for the time when Castro is no more.

Originally posted by Lebell
Please name one communist country that is NOT run by a small group of people if not one man (i.e. a dictatorship).

And how quickly the new generation forgets (or never knew) the horrors of the gulag or the killing fields.

I dont think that communism is always a dictatorship. Sure we haven't seen much other communist nations, but I still think (or hope) that ther could be a sort of "democratic communism". Plus I'm a beliver of the "Russia wasn't real communism" theory
You can give your nation whatever name you want, East-Germany called itself "democratic"...

[splck]

Originally posted by Scipio
If it got opened up to tourism, that would accomplish a lot. There would be an incentive to make the place look presentable, there would be new development and construction, new jobs, money flowing in.

Cuba is opened up for tourism, I sure most countries allow their citizens to travel there and I know we're allowed to travel there. My ex mother-in-law spends her holidays there every winter and absolutely loves the place. A buddy of mine went there last year and gave it thumbs up too, he said it was weird not seeing or running into any Americans.
It always seemed strange to me that you guys don't have the freedom to travel down there. I never agreed with that policy.

[Four Fingers]

communism would be able to afford a pretty decent lifestyle for everyone.

A bit offtopic, perhaps:

Scipio, China used to be under worse international sanctions than Cuba. Once China became capitalistic, it started growing - even though it remained totalitarian.

Socialism failed the first time it was tried, in New Harmony, more than 150 years ago. It was tried in hundreds of places since then. All failed. It's not a matter of spending too much money on weapons (the US did that too, BTW), or being sanctioned. It's the system that is corrupt.

Bluntly, Communism is in contradiction to human nature. It can't work.

[james t kirk]

As a Canadian, i am FREE.

FREE to do what i want, travel where i want, associate with whomever i choose.

I have been to Cuba twice, and loved it both times. The people are very friendly, the citiess are full of history and beautiful architecture and the women are hot.

The American embargo has done absolutely nothing to get rid of Castro. Even Jimmy Carter has admitted that and he now favours normalizing relations with Cuba. Castro has outlived / outlasted Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush, Clinton, and will probably outlast W. No small feat. He is also a very intelligent man believe it or not.

If you actually talked to the Cubans, you would find that they don't feel repressed. They know they don't have everything under the sun, but 90% will tell you that they are better off now than they were under the former US backed regime of Baptista. They have full literacy now, verses something like 10 percent before, they have health care whereas before they had none, etc. etc. Ironically, most Cubans like Americans too, despite your repeated attempts to starve them out, and brow beat other nations that trade openly with Cuba (the rediculous Helms Burton Law.)

I am not saying that Castro is an angel, but then again, neither is President Shrub. It is a dictatorship, no doubt about that. But in the grand scheme of dictators, and the world is full of them, i don't get the impression that Cubans and Cuba is suffering under the heal of a brutal dictatorship.

Na, this stems back from Castro nationalizing his own country and kicking out the American mob, pure and simple. It's all about the money. Always has been, always will be.

Oh yeah, if you ever want to see some amazing 50's american cars with German parts making them run, go to Cuba.

Hemmingway loved it, you will too.

Be strong, make up your own mind, but you can't do that if you can't go there.

[Dibbler]

Originally posted by apechild
Is Castro evil? Most assuredly. But travel restrictions and sanctions will do nothing to improve the situation in Cuba.

I don't think the idea is to improve the situation in Cuba. Our goal is to make sure Castro gets no benefit from the US as long as Cuba is a communist government.

Funny thing is...Why dosen't this apply to other communist countries, like China? Yep, that's right. It all comes down to money...

[Liquor Dealer]

Originally posted by james t kirk

If you actually talked to the Cubans, you would find that they don't feel repressed. They know they don't have everything under the sun, but 90% will tell you that they are better off now than they were under the former US backed regime of Baptista.

You wanna' explain to me why they risk their lives, day after day, trying to get away from a place they're so damned in love with to get to a place they supposedly hate? Not questioning your logic one iota but this phenomenom of them taking to the open seas in anything from a bathtub to an old Chevy truck on pontoons doesn't exactly sound like the Garden of Eden you've described - Don't suppose you judged Cuba from the carefully segregated touristy areas now did you?

[james t kirk]

Originally posted by Liquor Dealer
You wanna' explain to me why they risk their lives, day after day, trying to get away from a place they're so damned in love with to get to a place they supposedly hate? Not questioning your logic one iota but this phenomenom of them taking to the open seas in anything from a bathtub to an old Chevy truck on pontoons doesn't exactly sound like the Garden of Eden you've described - Don't suppose you judged Cuba from the carefully segregated touristy areas now did you?

Actually LD, i said in my above post that most Cubans LOVE americans, despite what america has done to them. Reread my above post about 2/3 of the way down.

I did not say that Cubans hate americans cause it aint true. That's what i find so ironic about this whole blockade bullshit.

Sure there are cubans that want to leave. It's simple, it's a poorer country than the USA. They are leaving for a better life if you judge you life by sheer material gain.

I spent quite a bit of time all over the island actually.

I have also been to other countries in the Carribean and let me tell you something. You want to see poverty, go to Haiti, or Jamaica, then compare it to Cuba.

The American embargo of Cuba is 40 some-odd years old and you haven't squeezed Castro out yet.

Do you really think that anything is going to change any time soon?

If the US had never instigated the trade embargo, I would bet that Castro would have been long gone.

[Liquor Dealer]

I don't think Cuba is "next" on any list - real or imaginary. I don't think the same can be said about other countries - namely Syria. I believe that unless dramatic change takes place in Syria, and soon, they will have change forced upon them. If not by the western world by Israel. I believe that the tolerance level for Syria has been exceeded. Not intending to change the intended direction of your post but if there is a nation which is all but inviting a butt kicking it would, at this point, be Syria. I think it is believed that the problems caused by Iran will take care of themeselves in the near future but Syria has its fingerprints on way too much.

[james t kirk]

Maybe, but it would be unfortunate.

I have several friends in Syria. One of my best friends is there right now in fact living half of her time in Toronto and half in Damascus. My impression of Syrians is that they are probably the most western of all the middle eastern states. Without a doubt in fact. They do not tolerate fundamental muslim crap what so ever unlike their other arabic cousins who embrace it.

They are a dictatorship under the son of assad since that's all they seem to understand is some form of royal family. Even my friend who is christian (there is a very large Christian minority in Syria) and very western thinks that a royal family is the best form of government. (We often disagree on this point.)

The only reason that Syria would even be on the radar is that they openly oppose Israel. That therefore puts them at risk from Uncle Sam's wrath.

Syria has NOTHING to do with fundamental muslims or fundamental muslim terror groups. In fact, the Syrians rather harshly squashed a fundamental muslim group in their country a decade ago.

[2wolves]

Originally posted by apechild
Is Castro evil? Most assuredly.

Comparing flavors of evil is always entertaining; who is/was more evil Castro or Batista?

Neither will ever win "Human of the Year" honors. The General was turning Cuba into a national brothel/casino and Castro has made the island into a subsistance level open prison.

2Wolves

[burntmonkey]

I'm sure that we could take out Castro if we wanted to, but we do not want another despotic leader to surface in his absence.

[rodgerd]

Originally posted by Lebell
Just a point:
And how quickly the new generation forgets (or never knew) the horrors of the gulag or the killing fields.

Yeah, because Cuba was such a great place pre-Castro.

Perhaps if the US gave up on its insistence that the old oppressors go back to Cuba as part of any reform ordinary Cubans would be a lot less suspicious of American motives.

[Lebell]

Originally posted by rodgerd
Yeah, because Cuba was such a great place pre-Castro.

Perhaps if the US gave up on its insistence that the old oppressors go back to Cuba as part of any reform ordinary Cubans would be a lot less suspicious of American motives.

I'm not being sarcastic when I say this, but

What are you talking about?

Last time I checked, Batista was dead. Or are you talking about the mob?

And for the record, I don't care for ANY dictatorships, US supported or opposed.

[Willy]

Originally posted by james t kirk
Sure there are cubans that want to leave. It's simple, it's a poorer country than the USA. They are leaving for a better life if you judge you life by sheer material gain.

I spent quite a bit of time all over the island actually.

Glad to hear that you're an expert on Cuba since you went there on vacation. I hope you realize how incredibly naive your are being.

Talking bad about an oppressive dictator in public to random Canadian tourists is a good way to go to jail or worse. Ask the Cuban refugees in Florida...the ones that are actually free to speak their mind...how they feel about Castro.

Actually you don't have to. The fact that people accuse Bush of pandering to cuban-americans by cracking down on Castro speaks volumes. The fact that there are large numbers of Cubans that are so desperate that they attempt to cross 90 miles of ocean on a homemade raft speaks even more. That is not something you do lightly. The fact that people still do this, knowing they have an 80% chance of death rather than continuing their "unrepressed" lifestyle in Cuba should tell you all you need to know about Castro. These people aren't crossing the ocean to become millionaires. They are crossing to become homeless illegal aliens in the US. And that is so much better than life in Cuba that they are willing to take an incredible risk to get there.

You can argue whether the embargo will work, but I find it unbelievable that someone would actually assert that Castro is "not so bad".

[thejoker130]

Castro is a freakin fossil, he'll pass on in a few years anyway. besides if he was that unpopular in his country he wouldn't be there. Besides i don't like Bush anyway and I dont support his Imperialistic ideals anyway.

now that i think of it I'm gonna start calling our imperious leader 'The Wannabe Emperor'

[tekaweni]

Of course yes.

Bush: making the world a better place, one country at a time.

[james t kirk]

Originally posted by Willy
Glad to hear that you're an expert on Cuba since you went there on vacation. I hope you realize how incredibly naive your are being.

Talking bad about an oppressive dictator in public to random Canadian tourists is a good way to go to jail or worse. Ask the Cuban refugees in Florida...the ones that are actually free to speak their mind...how they feel about Castro.

Actually you don't have to. The fact that people accuse Bush of pandering to cuban-americans by cracking down on Castro speaks volumes. The fact that there are large numbers of Cubans that are so desperate that they attempt to cross 90 miles of ocean on a homemade raft speaks even more. That is not something you do lightly. The fact that people still do this, knowing they have an 80% chance of death rather than continuing their "unrepressed" lifestyle in Cuba should tell you all you need to know about Castro. These people aren't crossing the ocean to become millionaires. They are crossing to become homeless illegal aliens in the US. And that is so much better than life in Cuba that they are willing to take an incredible risk to get there.

You can argue whether the embargo will work, but I find it unbelievable that someone would actually assert that Castro is "not so bad".

Hey bud,

Believe me, the Cubans have NO FEAR about speaking their minds. One trip to Cuba was vacation with my family the other was 3 month work stint with a mining firm.

Have you ever been to Cuba? No.

Would you go even if you could? Probably not.

Do you even have a passport? I doubt it.


You have been reading too much rah rah USA all the way propaganda to even begin to know truth from fiction.

The USA helps far more repressive dictators all round the world stay in power. Castro and Cuba aren't even on the radar. Example - China. How is it that China are a good communist dictators and Cuba is bad communist dictators???

[Phaenx]

North Korea needs a punch in the face much more then Cuba does, which probably isn't going to be any real threat to us. North Koreas leader is one belligerent mother fucker, and that alone is worth a missle to the face in my opinion.

[seretogis]

Originally posted by james t kirk
The USA helps far more repressive dictators all round the world stay in power. Castro and Cuba aren't even on the radar. Example - China. How is it that China are a good communist dictators and Cuba is bad communist dictators???

Well, I agree with you on one point -- that China is more of a threat than Cuba, militarily, and just as disgraceful as far as civil rights are concerned. I don't think you will find many conservative-leaning people supporting China, unlike the Clinton administration. However, Cuba is a threat to us merely because of how close it is to the US. The last thing that we need is China or North Korea shipping nukes down to Cuba.

[filtherton]

What if they did? MAD would seem to still apply. Why would they go to all the trouble of putting nukes in cuba? If they nuked us from florida we'd still nuke them back + the entire rest of the world. U of M hockey fans are a bigger threat than cuba.