The Politics Board: The joke of TFP?
 

Y'all know that many members specifically stay out of "Politics" because of the way the discussion rapidly degenerate, right?


"Coulter sucks"

"Michael Moore sucks"

"Bush sucks"

"Liberals suck"

"Conservatives suck"

ad naseum with decent discussions being a rare thing these days.


Some might argue that this is a good thing, because all of the TFP 'nuts' (myself included) migrate here and leave the rest of the folks alone. The rest of the membership step in here once or twice never to return, happy to post in "General", "Members", "Sexuality", etc. without being exposed to the knock down dragouts we allow in here.

But I personally would rather see the same high standards from the rest of TFP apply here, nonsense board withstanding.


I dunno.

I go back and forth over this.


What do you folks think?

Re: The Politics Board: The joke of TFP?
 

I'm sure that I've contributed more than my share of useless content on this board, but it would be nice if there was a more strict definition of the sort of things that can be posted here. As someone else posted on another thread, merely posting a link and a flame shouldn't really constitute as "political discussion." There are other forums for degrading cartoons and PMs for flames.

I think this thread, http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...hreadid=25990, is a nice example of how good the forum can be. I don't post often in here, but I check it regularly. There are some good discussions. Definitely not a joke.

Jdoe

I think the problem with most threads on the politics board is that few people are really trying to discuss anything. It seems more about some kind of childish pissing contest. So many threads on the politics board could be summed up with the subject line "You are stupid, here's circumstantial and questionable evidence why." How can you have an honest, thought provoking conversation with someone when you only see eachother as just a spineless liberal or a heartless conservative? There seems to be a noticable lack of respect on both sides, and few people, myself included, know have to have a discussion without resorting to empty name calling(bleeding-heart liberal/fascist) or loaded below the belt hits.
I guess that is the state of political discussion in america today.

I think you're right. I've started to avoid talking with people here myself, too much name calling and childish nonsense that goes hand in hand with politics nowadays. This place just seems to sew animosity between forum members.

I usually stick to the sane discussions. I don't respond to posts or parts of posts that are obvious trolls or really controversial.

I think heavy moderation is the only way this board will get any better. From what I can see, a calm, intelligent post invites intelligent answers. Rather than moderate every reply, which is probably more work that you guys want, is there a way to moderate new posts?

Perhaps people could earn a "maturity level" that gets them post access here. After x number of approved posts, they would be able to post without moderation.

I agree with filtherton, people generally here aren't trying to learn anything, they are trying to force their opinion on others. It's like posting that the moon is made of cheese then attacking anyone that disagrees.

Forums like this are also an opportunity to separate the wheat from the chaff.

We watch you all like hawks, you know...

To put this another way.
In a moderated forum situation, moderation is always occurring.
In the end, losers get to become Losers.
This is good for everyone.
Even the losers.
Why?
Because they get to reflect upon the errors of their ways.

All of our lives we are working through techniques of social interaction that won't get us busted or fired, or end in self-inflicted isolation and misery.
What was originally an unforseen aspect of TFP - that it is a laboratory in life and people skills - is now quite apparent.

This whole forum is a learning experience for anyone who takes the time to reflect.

Regarding politics, I think Lewis Carroll in Alice in Wonderland put it best:

politics can get me worked up super fast. i avoided politics and philosophy mostly because of so many lame postings, including my own if i got ill.

now i figure this... i take it slow.. speak up and watch.. it's all good

those who laugh quickly at the serious political people normally frown one day when they realize their life is pretty fucked up because they were never involved.

I dont think anyone who comes in here and participates in a discusison has actually changed their mind or their opinion on any issue. Thats not the nature of politics. But it does allow you access to another viewpoint and some more facts, whether you like them or not. Without some sort of rivalry between opposing viewpoints, we would not get all the sides or strong evidence in a situation. The competition forces all views to present their best evidence and operate at their peak.

Have you ever been a serious political discussion that hasn't been heated? I say let it be. Nobody here holds their opinions against another member outside of their thread. Take WhoaitZ above this post (you just happened to post, so your name came to mind, tahts all...). I dont agree with most of his viewpoints i have noticed. But i dont come in hear swearing and flaming because i hate him. This is a place for serious members to come here and learn (maybe even laugh), not to all come together and be one happy unopinionated family. If you cant hack it here, then dont post. Unless it was clearly a one sided board, any political discussion should, and will, bring along pressure and intensity. While some posts get out of control, the moderating currently being done is definately sufficient to allow those who are willing to be able to post in comfort. Anyone who ventures in a political section should expect to be required to defend his/her position in my opinion.

Well, I used to be a lot more vitriolic when it came to this place. Through no merit of my own, that's been stepped back. It's nice not to fight nearly as much, but a man can't get a decent debate, which is too bad.

Maybe, but I think unless you're willing to put your beliefs on the table, risk having to change your mind in the face of facts, and engage in actual dialogue, WTF is the point of a forum like this except talking to hear your own voice? Most of us are really just engaging in intellectual masturbation, which is not productive and gets really old the 1,000th time you read/write the same damn thing.

I don't think the TP board is any more heated than anybody would expect, though. It's politics, and we're talking about issues about which people have very passionate opinions. We're pretty much civil to each other, and if people avoid this board I think it's because many people don't really take an interest in politics and have no real opinions, or at least no desire to think hard and defend their opinions. Then again, that could be said for the folks inside the board, as well ;)

I would like to see this board evolve into more of a dialogue and less of a debate, though. Like I said, if you're not willing to engage in open dialogue you might as well be talking to yourself.

Once, a post that I made on this board introduced another member to Libertarianism.

Stating my views on different subjects might be intellectual masturbation, but if I can promote something I believe in to another interested party, it's worth my time.

IMO,

close the politics forum for good. Too many f'd up discussions there that really scratch MY local law in a _bad_ way. I like to avoid problems with law enforcement.

I think this forum reflects the current state of politics in general. It has become more of a game to the participants than a method of government. Each side wants to win more than make intelligent choices. The sad part is that the stakes are so high. I like to debate, and I don't fear losing. Politics should be the art of compromise and common sense, not a shouting match. Maybe we could start a new trend here and learn to get along.

Too true, geep.

So (everyone) what can we do to change the tenor of the discourse here, as a very small and humble step toward changing the tenor of the political discourse in society?

Aside from behaving ourselves individually, do we simply need to demand a higher level of participation from people, and resist the temptation to respond to "politics as usual"?

The only way that I can see it changing is through highly competent moderating. This is not a comment on the skills of moderators at TFP, just a statement about what type of moderating would be necessary to greatly improve the discourse. The moderator(s) would have to be relatively conversant in the current political issues and work to keep the conversations "on focus".

Just as business strategy meetings and the like employ moderators to keep the discussions on track and minimize side discussions, the TP mods would perhaps need to cut through the bs and try to break the concepts down to the true discussion points.

This isn't moderating like you see in the political debates (basically time keepers and question posers) but more of a consultative approach to moderation.

Just my .02

Heh, I like the thought of "TP" mods cleaning up the bullshit.

In "conservative" fashion, I'll say that the rules we have should be sufficient- what we don't need is more rules. And if the Mods need to rule the threads with an iron fist that takes the peak off the high the rest of us who play by the rules get from being here. We need to be self sufficient. For those of us who debate honestly and with open minds, our best recourse is not to fall into the trap laid by those who seek to bring us down to their level. Do not respond to the flamers and the name callers- cut them out of the loop. I think the Mods here at TFP do a fine job. We as members need to take on some responsibilty and do the rest.

if someone refuses to change a view then they are in the wrong area.

to me, political discussions are for every person to state their views on current affairs. period. it's to work together and figure shit out, to improve society, to say 'okay, this guy over here has a problem..' and trying to fix it.

i may take politics to seriously. i take my life seriously... it's me.

I admit, I'm still a small fry, merely a rookie, but I would strongly oppose more moderation or restricted membership. The latter more than the former, because the politics board is where I got my start. I like the variety, don't get me wrong, but I'm mostly interested in politics.

I oppose moderation because I've been privy to quite a few good, substantive discussions. Sure, there was the chaff here and there, but if the standard is set early and set strongly, most of the comments will follow. I trust the moderators, but I oppose moderation not because I think they'll unecessarily censor posts, but because if we, the posters, set the tone early then we don't need to burden them with additional duties. The responsibility should be on us, the posters, and not on the administrators, to be civil.

The posts that are simply flamewars are usually apparent early on, and for those of us that enjoy a good, rollicking discussion, we can just ignore them and let them flame out, pun not intended. While I have no evidence, I have a feeling that threads sort themselves out early between flamewars and serious discussions.

There's a difference between flaming and criticism, however, and while I can I'd like to take the opportunity to thank those that have responded to my posts, whether in agreement or disagreement. I come here to winnow out my fallacious arguments and hone my reasoning to a finer point, and I appreciate the time and effort that other posters put in to point out deficiencies or offer supporting evidence. It's been a pleasure, and here's to hoping it stays that way.

-- Alvin

you just earned yourself a fan.

Sign me up, too.

In places like general discussion, there is a point, counter-point format. Often both sides will meet somewhere in the middle - and learn something in the process.

This board, Lebell, IS the place that keeps the rest of TFP clean of arguements where participants are unwilling to consider the validity of other members posts. That said, heavier moderation is not the answer - someone with an open mind may still actually benefit from some of these posts.

I don't participate here often because I get frustrated over statements like "I hate President Bush." I don't care for him as a leader either, but if you honestly hate the man its gonna be difficult to develop a working discussion around issues involving the Presidency.

I don't see how heavier moderation can change the one-track mindedness of the worst offenders.

I love politics. I love discussing politics, I love arguing about politics, I love the messiness of politics, I love give and take of politics, I love the strategy of politics, I love the successes of politics and the failures of politics. I love the fact that no one person has the same exact thoughts about politics. I love that my hero may be your antichrist and vice versus.

Yes, this thread gets petty and messy and stupid. This thread has also educated and informed and entertained. There have been times when I have read some truely thoughtful and insightful posts and certainly a great deal of poorly thoughtout and immature posts. That pretty much sums up politics.

I tend to agree that when discussions center around two or three individuals and their opinion of each other's posts, it gets a little tiresome, but I believe in free speech, so let them act like children and move on.

No, this is not a prefect thread, but let's get real, none of the threads are perfect. Politics is messy and often juvenile, it is also serious and often inspiring, much like this thread. Let it be.

I think the greatest infliction you can do to someone that spouts disrespectful or malicious language is to let them do it. Intelligent people have better things to do than to run around telling others how unintelligent they are. Politics are emotional and sometimes venting is a good release. I am opposed to more moderation because I think that those who are here to learn something are capable of monitoring what they read by themselves. Nobody wants to be dismissed, but this is exactly what happens when coarse or insulting language is used. If people are using this technique they are only looking for a pat on the back from people who agree with them. They are not out to learn anything. They are not out to convince you of anything. They are out to feel like they are a part of something and have made it clear that they're only looking for a high five from someone who shares their opinion. I say let them. This is the best way for them to learn that you'll catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. I like TFP politics most of the time. If I get worked up about something I'll go into Titled Nonsense for about ten minutes and then come back. People who can't relax here, will inevitably defeat themselves. Long live TFP.

I'm too lazy to search through the U SUX!! posts for the intelligent conversations, which is why I avoid the Politics and Philosophy boards unless I'm really damn bored.

Which ain't that rare, so never mind.

Thank you for your well thought out posts, everyone.

I think that the way this forum might be viewed as a "joke" is a reflection of the political world in general right now. There is a lot of partisanism in this forum and the discussions are often predictable and split along party lines. The questions posed are usually loaded against one side or another as well. I don't think this is necessarily our fault or a bad thing though. I think that our discussions reflect the polarized political climate of the times which tend to exclude the folks who aren't highly politically aware or highly partisan. I enjoy discussing the issue in this board with everyone who agrees and disagrees with me, but for those non-politics out there I can see why they might see this as dry and without merit (as is often the criticism of our politicians in general)

I agree. I also spend a lot of time reading the posts and find myself getting too upset to respond. But, I think is shows a lot of charcter to the mods and to this board to allow us the freedom to show our ignorance. I am greatfull....

*Bows*

Sadly, you've encapsulated the problem perfectly. People who wanted to hang Bill Clinton for his sexual misconduct (which was consensual) ignore Arnold's history of alleged sexual assaults because he's on "their side"; but then, how many of Clinton's defenders were attacking Clarence Thomas only a few years before? Accepting a Rhodes Scholarship makes you a draft-dodger, but going AWOL from a reserve program doesn't. Dugs are bad if you have a little pot, but cocaine is a youthful indiscretion and a painkiller addiction is a media conspiracy. And let's not even go to the DNC's fallout with the Greens...

It's doublethink of the worst sight by people who have become so mired in the system, and thinking about how to win, they've lost track of the notion that the system is their to produce quality governance that reflects the wishes of the people.

Political and religious discussions on the Internet will always be littered with the trash of belligerent anonymity. Failure and treachery, success and patriotism, we will interpret the actions of our leaders with wild and staunch variance. We cannot agree because of the wide range of things we can disagree on.

But bitter partisan bickering is especially vitriolic in America, and sadly so, because we have the power to do such great things if we would just shut up and look around at what's going on, instead of wasting time and energy debating at each other about what's already happened. As Lewis Carrol says, no one is listening because everyone is talking.

I used to hang out on this board until it reached the point that just posting anything led to an immediate flame war with two or three people, the same two or three every time. I have found that many of the thoughts expressed in replies on the titty board show more forethought than many of the replies this board has elicited. I now come and read occasionally - Post? I think not.

What the hell do you mean it erupts into a flame war? You don't know what you're talking about...

Just kidding. More forethought on the titty board, now that's funny.

Thats not funny, its sad but true sometimes. Which is why I advocate the combining of the two. We should mix politics and tits.

Politits?

:lol: I love it! Maybe we can get Schwartzenegger(sp?) and Clinton to join us.

The polititty board. Finally we can get some real work done!

In comparison to how things can be in real life and in a real life political campaign where you see the absolute worst in a lot of people; this board is pretty damn civil. We can strive to make it better though, choose civility, and each of our voices is EQUAL - that's something people DON'T always get the chance to do out in the "real" world where money, tribalism and corruption gets in the way. We are very fortunate to have this opportunity to empower the individual.