Rather Orwellian - Page 2 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Nad Adam · 04-23-2003, 04:25 AM

More at http://yorick.infinitejest.org:81/1/cards.html

guthmund · 04-25-2003, 01:05 AM

Everyone puts so much faith in their little documents.

Although I believe that The Constitution, Declaration of Independence, and the Bill of Rights are probably the most sacred documents in American history, the fact is they're only worth the paper they're printed on.

If the leadership fails to recognize the validity of the document, how good is that little scrap of paper going to hold up against the juggernaut that is the U.S. Government?

The lines, once clear cut and definitive, are now blurring.

Quote:

If enough people oppose it and *say* they oppose it, it'll be gone.

That's a very noble sentiment, but let's take a simple issue. Taxes. Everyone hates taxes, everyone says they hate taxes, some people protest paying taxes, and yet I still paid mine on April 15th just like a million others.

JumpinJesus · 04-25-2003, 07:36 AM

Regarding the erosion of liberties in America.

In upholding the provisions of the Patriot Act, Supreme Court Associate Justice Antonin Scalia said in a speech on March 18 that Americans' rights go far beyond the provisions of the Constitution.

What this means is that the opinion of the Supreme Court is that we have more "rights" than the Constitution says we should have and therefore we should not feel threatened by the Patriot Act, since many "rights" we enjoy aren't really guaranteed by the Constitution in the first place.

A provision of the Patriot Act compels libraries and bookstores to notify the government of the reading habit of "suspect" citizens. Who is a "suspect" citizen? That's up to John Ashcroft to decide.

Naturally, many people are concerned about libraries and bookstores keeping the government abreast of the reading habits of free people. Attorney General John Ashcroft has stated that this concern is misplaced. After all, according to Ashcroft, investigators must show probable cause before investigating which books we enjoy reading. But if our government is willing to monitor such treasonous acts as reading the wrong book, what will they decide is "probable cause"? Not supporting your president enough? Don't we have enough mouth-foaming extremists already of the opinion that badmouthing the president during wartime is treasonous? Is it such a stretch to conclude that this could be deemed as "probable cause"?

Some people say our concern over such Orwellian acts is unfounded and hysterical. Well, put me down as being hysterical because once my government decides that they need to know what I'm reading, I become concerned.

There is much to the argument that we are moving towards a more Orwellian society. However, I would propose that there is a good amount of "Brave New World" thrown in for good measure.

Some arguments have been made that we will never become an Orwellian society as long as we have places like the TFP at our disposal. As much as I love this site and enjoy the postings and the opinions of all the members here, what good are our opinions doing if all we're doing is stating them? The illusion of freedom does not freedom make. In my honest opinion, being able to state your opinion on matters such as these means nothing to us if, when we check out a book on Marxism at the library, our name is flagged. This flagging then results in us being told, "I'm sorry, Mr. So-and-so, but you're name has appeared on our list and you will not be able to purchase an airline ticket."

Check out the Travel Security Administration website. You may be denied the purchase of an airline ticket if you are considered "suspect". If you put a lock on a suitcase they will break it.
<b>The right of the people to be secure in their property and possessions against unwarranted searches and seizures shall not be infringed.</b>
They cite "security reasons." Read up on some of their laws.

Read the Patriot Act.

Add up all of these things and much more and I come to one conclusion.
Yes, I'm concerned.

Now I'm finsihed. I realize most people won't read the entire post, but thank you if you did. It's a bit wordy.

04-23-2003, 04:25 AM	#41 (permalink)
Nad Adam Psycho Location: Sweden	Another deck of cards... More at http://yorick.infinitejest.org:81/1/cards.html

04-25-2003, 07:36 AM	#43 (permalink)
JumpinJesus Junkie Location: Chicago	Regarding the erosion of liberties in America. In upholding the provisions of the Patriot Act, Supreme Court Associate Justice Antonin Scalia said in a speech on March 18 that Americans' rights go far beyond the provisions of the Constitution. What this means is that the opinion of the Supreme Court is that we have more "rights" than the Constitution says we should have and therefore we should not feel threatened by the Patriot Act, since many "rights" we enjoy aren't really guaranteed by the Constitution in the first place. A provision of the Patriot Act compels libraries and bookstores to notify the government of the reading habit of "suspect" citizens. Who is a "suspect" citizen? That's up to John Ashcroft to decide. Naturally, many people are concerned about libraries and bookstores keeping the government abreast of the reading habits of free people. Attorney General John Ashcroft has stated that this concern is misplaced. After all, according to Ashcroft, investigators must show probable cause before investigating which books we enjoy reading. But if our government is willing to monitor such treasonous acts as reading the wrong book, what will they decide is "probable cause"? Not supporting your president enough? Don't we have enough mouth-foaming extremists already of the opinion that badmouthing the president during wartime is treasonous? Is it such a stretch to conclude that this could be deemed as "probable cause"? Some people say our concern over such Orwellian acts is unfounded and hysterical. Well, put me down as being hysterical because once my government decides that they need to know what I'm reading, I become concerned. There is much to the argument that we are moving towards a more Orwellian society. However, I would propose that there is a good amount of "Brave New World" thrown in for good measure. Some arguments have been made that we will never become an Orwellian society as long as we have places like the TFP at our disposal. As much as I love this site and enjoy the postings and the opinions of all the members here, what good are our opinions doing if all we're doing is stating them? The illusion of freedom does not freedom make. In my honest opinion, being able to state your opinion on matters such as these means nothing to us if, when we check out a book on Marxism at the library, our name is flagged. This flagging then results in us being told, "I'm sorry, Mr. So-and-so, but you're name has appeared on our list and you will not be able to purchase an airline ticket." Check out the Travel Security Administration website. You may be denied the purchase of an airline ticket if you are considered "suspect". If you put a lock on a suitcase they will break it. <b>The right of the people to be secure in their property and possessions against unwarranted searches and seizures shall not be infringed.</b> They cite "security reasons." Read up on some of their laws. Read the Patriot Act. Add up all of these things and much more and I come to one conclusion. Yes, I'm concerned. Now I'm finsihed. I realize most people won't read the entire post, but thank you if you did. It's a bit wordy. __________________ "I can normally tell how intelligent a man is by how stupid he thinks I am" - Cormac McCarthy, All The Pretty Horses