It's not just the weather that's cooler in Canada
 

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From the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette


It's not just the weather that's cooler in Canada

Wednesday, July 30, 2003

You live next door to a clean-cut, quiet guy. He never plays loud music or throws raucous parties. He doesn't gossip over the fence, just smiles politely and offers you some tomatoes. His lawn is cared-for, his house is neat as a pin and you get the feeling he doesn't always lock his front door. He wears Dockers. You hardly know he's there.

And then one day you discover that he has pot in his basement, spends his weekends at peace marches and that guy you've seen mowing the yard is his spouse.

Allow me to introduce Canada.

The Canadians are so quiet that you may have forgotten they're up there, but they've been busy doing some surprising things. It's like discovering that the mice you are dimly aware of in your attic have been building an espresso machine.

Did you realize, for example, that our reliable little tag-along brother never joined the Coalition of the Willing? Canada wasn't willing, as it turns out, to join the fun in Iraq. I can only assume American diner menus weren't angrily changed to include "freedom bacon," because nobody here eats the stuff anyway.

And then there's the wild drug situation: Canadian doctors are authorized to dispense medical marijuana. Parliament is considering legislation that would not exactly legalize marijuana possession, as you may have heard, but would reduce the penalty for possession of under 15 grams to a fine, like a speeding ticket. This is to allow law enforcement to concentrate resources on traffickers; if your garden is full of wasps, it's smarter to go for the nest rather than trying to swat every individual bug. Or, in the United States, bong.

Now, here's the part that I, as an American, can't understand. These poor benighted pinkos are doing everything wrong. They have a drug problem: Marijuana offenses have doubled since 1991. And Canada has strict gun control laws, which means that the criminals must all be heavily armed, the law-abiding civilians helpless and the government on the verge of a massive confiscation campaign. (The laws have been in place since the '70s, but I'm sure the government will get around to the confiscation eventually.) They don't even have a death penalty!

And yet ... nationally, overall crime in Canada has been declining since 1991. Violent crimes fell 13 percent in 2002. Of course, there are still crimes committed with guns -- brought in from the United States, which has become the major illegal weapons supplier for all of North America -- but my theory is that the surge in pot-smoking has rendered most criminals too relaxed to commit violent crimes. They're probably more focused on shoplifting boxes of Ho-Hos from convenience stores.

And then there's the most reckless move of all: Just last month, Canada decided to allow and recognize same-sex marriages. Merciful moose, what can they be thinking? Will there be married Mounties (they always get their man!)? Dudley Do-Right was sweet on Nell, not Mel! We must be the only ones who really care about families. Not enough to make sure they all have health insurance, of course, but more than those libertines up north.

This sort of behavior is a clear and present danger to all our stereotypes about Canada. It's supposed to be a cold, wholesome country of polite, beer-drinking hockey players, not founded by freedom-fighters in a bloody revolution but quietly assembled by loyalists and royalists more interested in order and good government than liberty and independence.

But if we are the rugged individualists, why do we spend so much of our time trying to get everyone to march in lockstep? And if Canadians are so reserved and moderate, why are they so progressive about letting people do what they want to?

Canadians are, as a nation, less religious than we are, according to polls. As a result, Canada's government isn't influenced by large, well-organized religious groups and thus has more in common with those of Scandinavia than those of the United States, or, say, Iran.

Canada signed the Kyoto global warming treaty, lets 19-year-olds drink, has more of its population living in urban areas and accepts more immigrants per capita than the United States.

These are all things we've been told will wreck our society. But I guess Canadians are different, because theirs seems oddly sound.

Like teenagers, we fiercely idolize individual freedom but really demand that everyone be the same. But the Canadians seem more adult -- more secure. They aren't afraid of foreigners. They aren't afraid of homosexuality. Most of all, they're not afraid of each other.

I wonder if America will ever be that cool.

___________________________________________________

As a Canadian I found this quite amusing... I'm curious how Americans read this...

Great post,

i will have to save that one, or maybe post it on www.hollywoodhalfwits.com to rile up some some ultra right wing nutbar.

Well thanks Charlatan, we try our best.

Although personally I believe the reason we are so progressive recently is because our Prime Minister will not be running again come next election, and since he has declared that publically he has been making changes and sticking with his opinions with a lot more force. Personally I like it, it's nice to see a politician who doesn't sit fences and actually gets something done, and at the same time is liberal. The kind of real leadership a country needs.

I liked tht article and wonder the same thing, will the US ever be that cool?

Damn right, can't beat living up here in the big white north. I'm slightly worried that Mr. Martin will turn around some of the legislation that has recently passed..I heard he has some very right wing plans (although I haven't read up on it).

On a side note..I found it kind of sad that the day that homosexual marriage was passed in the house, Canadian Idol was on the cover of the Toronto Star, and the new law only got a small box in the corner.

Actually the gay marriage law hasn't passed yet. That was just a challenge by the Alliance (right wing party) to re-affirm the definition of gay marriage as one man and one woman... It wasn't a law they were voting on but a parlimentary "agreement" on the definition.

It would have made passing the new law all that much more difficult to pass if the vote had passed.

I have one question from this article.

What's a ho ho??

I think they are kind of a chocolate twinkie... Just guessing...

Interesting to note the "Scandinavian heritage" aspect of the article. One might find it worthy to note the political leanings of the people of the State of Minnesota, "Canada's Miami". Is there credence to this "Scandinavian heritage" theory?

I didn't see that the article suggested there was "Scandinavian heritage" only that our policies are more closely associated with the Scandinavian countries than they are with the US (particularly with reference to the religious lobby in the US).

Bump... just want to see if this still works as a piece.

You bumped an article that you didn't have any commentary on?

:icare:

Good article, Charlatan. This is my first viewing. :)

Mine , too. That's really well put. I have to admit that it's just as true today as it was back in 2003. Also, I like Ustwo's signature. Hahahaha.

Canada - The gay hippie pothead next door?

Will, are you suggesting that it is just as true today as it was back in 2003? :lol:

Awesome, its nice to know that my pot smoking habit is making some American think I'm cool.

Not really

Absolutely!

Hmmm, less crime, less poverty, standard of living comparable, a lesser percentage of infant mortality, cleaner cities, better respected worldwide, ....... hmmmmm you must be doing something right up there what's your secret?

Reading the article apparently it's pot.

Whuh...gay marriage is one man and one woman?

I prefer the United States' stances on foreign policy, economics, and gun control for the most part so I still prefer the U.S. significantly. Not a huge Kyoto fan, either. Then again, I never claimed to be cool.

The other stuff sounds good, though.

Just to clarify, Canada is not entirely united on the issue of Kyoto, especially Alberta.

BTW..... more and more television and movies are shot in Canada.

I thought they had "pot" bars in Vancouver and a couple other cities.

Amazing how just because you say pot is legal or less of a crime someplace, some people tend to believe everyone is smoking it and that your country, city, state, whatever is less successful and evil. I guess they prefer to keep it hidden and throw kids making a mistake in jail and giving them a police record affecting their futures.

Just like America, it doesn't take long until you see the dirt beneith the shine.

Racism is as rampant in Canada as it is in America.
Their country is constantly trying to split itself apart.
Taxes are high and heath care is having troubles with overloading.

Having lived in Canada for some time, these aren't problems I'm making up. Sure, I support marajuana legalization and gay marriage. And those are some of the good things about Canada.

However they also dont face many problems we face. Rampant immigration of the poor accross the borders (which scews the infant mortality rate/etc). The price tag of being labelled the world police (we didn't simply nominate ourselves afterall). It's easy to put money elsewhere when a whopping 2% of the budget goes to the military (they know no one will attack Canada with us as their only neighbor). And all that entails being the leader of the world.

Cute article, however it's not exactly unbiased and doesnt take into account most things.

I part of the secret is that they don't have to spend alot on their military :)

We spend more on our military than all other countries combined. I'm not so sure that it is the best choice for our economy. Another "cool" point for Canada! :)

Yeah well Canada spends so little on their military that it has effectively fallen apart. If there were to be an attack on the great Canook stronghold of Canadia, they would certainly fall as they have no working navy or air force, and their army can't sustain itself in operations. They would need a lot of grit and determination, VC style!

Well, the irony is the Canadian Army has recently started employing bicycles to it's infantry (I kid you not).

They cant afford new Armored Personel Carriers, and some of the old ones date to WWII. To think, we caught flack for not having our Hummers armor plated... they're riding into battle like armed 12 year olds.

First off... the acticle is a commentary and not all that accurate. It takes a rather naive view of Canada.

Racism is present in Canada but I would argue that it is a different flavour than what is found in the US and as such is not as entrenched or as bad as I find in the US.

I wouldn't say that our nation is "constantly trying to split itself apart". There is tension in Quebec but they growing pains. I would remind you that the US had growing pains too, except they went to war... we use a ballot box.

Taxes are high. So what? We get services for those taxes. Different approach than the US. Get over it. It works for us.

As for health care... explore any of the number of the rebuttals throughout the TFP. The system is no where near as bad as you might think.

No they aren't problems you are making up... just exagerating or not understanding.

Rampant immigration? We have a much higher rate of immigration than the US. Granted we do not have to deal with as much illegal immigration.

World police? Granted. You brought it on yourself though.

As for the 2%... true but you know the aswer to that... the only nation that would ever (and ever has) invade(d) Canada is/was the USA.

Well as for the military, gee..... who the fuck besides the US is going to even think about invading Canada? Nor is Canada a warmongering country like the US.

Want to say we're not war mongers then name two continuous decades since 1840 we have not been in a war. In fact, just name a 15 year period, or a 10.
-1840's - 50's Mexican Wars
-1860's - Civil War
-1870's - 1880's maybe if you don't count the war with the Indians.
-1900's - Spanish-American,
-1910's WWI,
-1920's and 30's sent a lot of men over to the Spanish Revolution (unofficially of course), (1920's and '30's maybe but we were in a depression and crime ran rampant.)
-1940's WWII,
-1950's Korea
-1960's-70's Vietnam
-1980's Lebanon, Grenada (even....lol)
-1990's parts of Africa, Bosnia, Desert Storm,
and this decade Iraq

Then we even have "wars" on other fronts...... "War on crime", "War on Drugs", 'War on Terror", "War on Poverty", "War on Racism", "War on Illiteracy","Cold War"....... we love to use the word "WAR"...... and according to the Right, we are a Christian nation, founded on Christian beliefs, but we look to "war" somehow..... we have spilt more blood (our own and others) in 230 years than most nations combined in that amount of time.

And out of those "Wars" on the homefront we have lost every single one of them except the "Cold War" and even that is debateable as only history will tell.

If things get much worse here, I've said it before I'd move to Canada. The only things stopping me right now is the weather (I think Ohio is cold.... brrrrrrrrr to Canada) my career and family. And I have a feeling I would make more of an impact in Canada and get better respect in my career than in the US, as the Right keeps pouring more and more funding into military and fucks the infrastrure (education, healthcare, social services) over.

The Canadian government also would probably keep their word and fix the levies in NO and get those people living in tents houses..... ah but the cameras are gone and so is Bush and his promises of money to help them rebuild..... he has a "War" and Haliburton to pay for.

BTW, noone dubbed us the "World Police", we took that position upon ourselves. And we sold the fuck out of Czechloslavakia, Poland, Romania, when they begged us for help we turned our backs and gave the USSR those countries, but we went on in to Korea and Vietnam without either country asking us to.

I'm upset no one quoted this.

People, people, I give you a set up, take the shot! :p

I don't understand. You post an article supposedly trying to show how much better Canada is than the US, but when someone has the audacity to disagree, you seem to get mad. As for our issues, all I can say is get over it, it works for us ;) .

And honestly, after reading that article, I'm even more glad that I live in the US. Canada-A nice place to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there. But I will admit Toronto is cool, and Windsor is great every once in awhile.

Yes Pan we go to war a lot.

However would you prefer a country that sits idle while genocides happen? Or one that takes a stand.

No, we dont help out very often. Cambodia/Sudan/Congo/etc are black stains on us, and I hate that we didnt stop it. However I've always felt that the saying holds true, "The only thing evil needs to flurish is for good men to do nothing."

You might feel ok while people are raped/beated/killed, but I'd do whatever it takes to prevent that and/or stop those that do. And I love my country for when it finally DOES attempt to stop it.

I have no problem with what you are saying Seaver, and yes when we are needed it is important to go when asked. Not just when there is an interest at stake.

I served gladly in the US Navy and am proud of it.

I just was commenting on the fact that people ridicule Canada for not puuting more into their military. They don't need to.

And the fact that we do tend to use the word "war" so much that I fear the true meaning is lost.

In our history we have fought great wars with purpose and truly deserved respect from other nations.... and we have fought some that we shouldn't have.

Overall this is the greatest nation on Earth, but the agression that makes us great (the technology we have brought, the freedoms, and so on) also hurt us at times.

Just like in life, all we can do as a country is hope that somehow we make the world a better place....... sometimes we lose that perspective and we split and divide ourselves and the world..... but then things settle down and the dust clears and we look back and try to do better.

That is the true beauty of the US..... what I worry about is whether we can continue or if someday we'll just keep going down that wrong road and not be able to recover.

We lost 30 million people in that war.....

My favorite moment with Canadians was on a fishing trip there.

It was in the late 80's or early 90's I forget the date, and the Worlds Fair or some such was in Paris (I could google to look up the date but thats not fun). Anyways they had a parade of nations thing and Canada was with the third world nations. (Some kid was dressed like a mounty and being held/danced with a woman in a big giant dress which I guess was suppose to represent the developed world or some such) Oh how the Canadian commentators were pissed at being lumped with the third world and did ‘not like it at all!’.

My second favorite bit was from about the same time. Prince Charles and Lady Diana were visiting and the news program was interviewing a ‘woman on the street’ about it and she said ‘Well in America they have Hollywood and Movie Stars, but in Canada we have royalty, eh?’

I’m really not sure if there is a point to this thread or not so perhaps it can be a place to share your fun Canadian stories.

The rest of my fun Canadian stories involve fish mostly.

Perhaps you're unaware of the 3rd Reich's extensive use of bicycles to move troops as a compontent of Blitzkrieg? Quite effective in places where you can't count on paved roads.

Then again they were invading France...

Yup, and most of our immigration now comes from the poorer countries of the world - Jamaica, Pakistan, various Asian and middle eastern nations - which makes for greater challenges.

I think the key was we have rampant illegal immigration.

Also Loco, nice burn on the French.

Not mad in the slightest... just continuing the debate. :)

If you are ever back in Toronto, let me know. I'd love to meet you.

Wait, wait...what makes Windsor only periodically-cool? Surely not its proximity to Detroit ;)

There's a lot to see in Canada. Unfortunately the "cool cities" aren't always easily accessible to the driving traveller.

Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, the Stratford Festival, Newfoundland all very beautiful, pretty clean and wonderful areas for summer visits.

Sorry to let you know but compared to United States, we rarely have any race riot. Instead, we just have an old fashion beer, hockey game and then duke it out in the parking lot and we're all mates again.

Every country is trying to constantly split itself, it just happened to work in for the USSR.

You're an American right? Let me guess, you pay for your own health care eh? Our health care is free and we're free to go ahead and pay for our own care but we don't choose to ;)

Hey! How bout you guys create universal health care and that way, the poor can have access to free health care and ulimately, that won't screw your mortality rate/etc. That

Sorry to let you know but our military has been more active than you think, except we just choose to be involved in peacemaking instead of war mongering like you guys are. FYI, Canada has been involved in more UN mission than any other country in the world, even more than United States.

Yeah well, an American wrote it.

Hey Char, don't forget to mention that the only nation that would ever (and ever has) invade(d) the USA is/was Canada.

What bout the French? They lost and we gave them a place called Quebec and they keep trying to take it back to France since then

Funny you should bring that up... apparently our vehicles are, in fact, armoured. This one was hit with a roadside bomb near Maywand, Afghanistan. The three soldiers and one UK journalist inside were injured but are alive.
http://www.cbc.ca/gfx/pix/afghan_can_dscn0402.jpg

We have that too - I agree the US rate is likely higher, but a lot of arguments I hear say: "We have this giant pool of poor, uneducated black/hipspanic/whatever people in the USA and that brings our stats down compared to whitebread Canada." Fact is, Canada now has a higher percentage of poor, often uneducated immigrants coming here (at least legally), and the overall rate of minorities may well be higher taking immigration and natives into account.

I lived in Vancouver for 5-6 years in the early 90s, and now it's hard for me to imagine a better place to live. Stunning natural beauty, diverse population, great music and arts, friendly fun people, just everything, it's unforgettable. It's all an unbelievable dream to me now, did that paradise actually exist, or am I imagining it?

The healthcare was superb, I paid around $40 per month, and everything was covered 100%, no waiting.

And yep there was pot, you could buy it from naked peddlers any time on Wreck beach, at least before the RCMP tried to clean it up. My colleagues would wink and nod and sneak up to the office rooftop to have a few tokes and check out the view.

A lot of folks didn't like the GST though, and this was a time when everybody crossed down to the U.S. border towns all weekend long to buy gas and other stuff to save on the GST and other taxes and the exchange rate. There were lines and lines of gas stations all along the border on the U.S. side, filled to max all weekend, and customers were 90% Canadian there and in most stores on the U.S. side, all the way down to Bellingham WA. It was a funny economic culture.

Gotta love those folks and that priceless natural beauty up there. It's often in my reveries :)

Just a correction:

I personally was ridiculing Canada for not spending alot on it's military. I was just stating a cold hard fact.

As to discussing the value received for our spending, that's another thread.

Yeah but they also still used Mule trains for transporting supplies.

Oh I know they do, I've even ridden in a few early on. However not all their "mounted" soldiers are riding in nice, new equipment.

And for all I said about Canada, I actually DO like the country. I grew up for almost half my childhood there. However I'm getting sick of how everyone paints over all the rough spots to say "we should be like them" when the realities are so much different.

And besides, much of the Canadian military is US equipment we sold at such an insane price it might as well have been given away (15mil for a brand new F-18?... while it costs more like 50).

That's just the guilty conscience for strong arming the Canadian governement into killing the Arrow. :lol:

That was a set up? darn.... But it describes a few neighbours of mine... throw in rasta with the gay, hippie and pothead, and you got a better mix.

That would piss me off too. leave it to the French to be so condenscending.

But some of the factors that define a third world nation is the dependence on the export of primary resources to sustain its economy, plus the concentration of its population is one or two "primary" cities, with a languishig agrarian society that cannot sustain itself.

Granted, there are only 2 or 3 urban areas that have a population of over 1 million, but I do believe that our economy has developed past that stage that defines it as 3rd world. We also do not suffer the sociological 3rd world problems (high birth rate/high death rate, large low age population, literacy issues and high unemployment).

A lot of the blessing of Canada's situation can be drawn directly back to being on the winning side of the European wars (WWI & II) and the subsequent kick start to the economies that the allies achieved. And this was in no small part due to our friendship/alliance with the US, and the subsequent co-development of our infrastructures.

The fact is that the US has 10 times the resources, and all the economies of scale that that entails. So an F18 may cost $50 mill each, but who can realistically afford a fleet of those??? The US gov't may purchase them, but I doubt they actually paid the sticker price. In the same way, The Canadian gov't also purchased them and didn't pay the sticker price. Again the lockstep of our two countries bears fruit. ( I wonder if that was $15 mill Canadian that we paid??? sweet!)

sometimes, though, we retain the right to be individuals and not be exactly like the US.


dammit .. I'm rambling. I need a beer.

Well we could leave you to your own devices and possibly end up like the French.

They decided they wanted a Nuclear Carrier. So they put a reactor from a Sub into the carrier. However subs aren't meant to go fast, carriers are. If there is no headwind the carrier has to speed up to 30+ knots to create enough headwind for the planes to take off. However the reactor isn't meant for those speeds. So they have to speed up enough for that, which is long enough to launch one plane then the reactor auto-kills itself to prevent overheating. So for the next 30min the carrier is dead in the water with only backup batteries for life support systems.

In addition to that their BRAND NEW plane built for the carrier is too big (dont know who overlooked that). It can't land or take off from the very carrier it was built around, so their Navy is still using the 1955 fighters.

All that and their carrier costs almost as much as ours... and is 1/2 the size.

Go France!

there you go. economies of scale in action.

Seaver... that was a sly way of dissing the Arrow.

Trust me. Don't go there.

Don't make us angry Mr. Seaver... you wouldn't like us when we're angry. :lol:

Ohnoes! The bicycle cops are going to get us! :D

This is one of the most rediculous things I have read in quite a while.

Free. That's just absurd, and honestly the most conerning of all misconceptions about the mediocre universal health care system offered by my country. Not only is it not free but it is also substandard, as our wait times, mortality rates, and medical professional attrition rates would indicate.

As far as paying for our own but not choosing too, perhaps you were unaware of a recent Canadian Supreme Court decision that actually overturned a Quebec law FORBIDDING Canadians from doing just that...You know forbidding us from choosing. This brings up two important thoughts. Why would provincial governments be restricting this choice, and how pre-tel did the Canadian Supreme Court get involved in an issue no one was choosing to do? Hmmmmmm.

I am tired of Canadians touting health care as a positive of our Country. Our health care fucking SUCKS.

There are many many many excellent qualities about Canada. In fact many social, political, environmental, and general quality of life aspects that far exceed just about anywhere else, that cess pool of social experimentation in Hongcouver, or Vangroovy being the exception of course, but health care unfortunately is not one of them.

-bear

And yet somehow it took the collective effort of most of the world to stop them.

LMAO I just caught the picture of a Mountie in full red uniform riding a bike down an Iraqi street with an agry look on his face.

.. Come on I know you're smiling at that.

Bear... I would suggest that feelgood doesn't actually think the healthcare is free. I am sure he understands that taxes pay for it.

As for it being substandard, this is hardly accurate. As has been pointed out to you many times in this forum... the mortality rates and general level of health in Canada vs. the USA is pretty much the same (with Canada posting numbers that are slightly better than the USA).

The difference is that we provide this health care to everyone and the US system does not. We do this while costing less per capita than the current US system.

If it "fucking SUCKS" why can we do as much or better than the US system for less and for all?

You are behind the times. The fact is, private clinics are a reality in Canada and there is no law preventing them from existing. The bone of contention comes when these private clinics try to tap into public funds. That shouldn't be permitted.

That is funny... :lol:

Perhaps if enough Canadians get fed up with your system, enough will be willing to pay well over double (private from cash and public from their taxes), and your system will be saved from bankruptcy.

Edit:and....
Oh and based on that you really missed with the bone of contention was.

Yeah well... Just 2 years ago I had a back injury which litterally crippled me. For 4 months I couldnt walk on my own and my doctors were telling me it was a strained hamstring.

In reality it was a herniated disk in my back that pressed the ciatic (spelling?) nerve so hard against the spine that they couldnt even see it on an MRI. The doctor that saw it said it was the worst he's seen in 30 years.

It took 6 doctors 4 months to figure that one out... that's not exactly "on a timely basis" either. Those were also specialist doctors cause I have great insurance. I think both medical communities stick.

You've have tried unsuccessfully once or twice to convince me of this folly. Nothing more. I'm sure Feelgood appreciates your deciphering of the words he didn't write. I know I do.

You can't and you don't. As if saying it enough will make it a reality.

You keep on keeping on, Charlatan, and if you believe that similarities in various healthcare statistics are because of the quality of our healthcare system, please do so. The professionals, the POLITICIANS, and most Canadians know differently. They are proud of the attempt and ashamed of the results. Recent political campaigns speak to this. Of course Canadians are not prone to air dirty laundry publically. Substandard is probably harsh and I will give you that. I think a more apt description would be lackluster, or mediocre. Also, agree that Canada provides lackluster or mediocre healthcare to everyone, just like the US. Of course in the US, just ike in Canada, those of means, success, and privledge take their serious healthcare needs elsewhere. This is the only thing universal about Canada's health care....well this and exorbinant taxes, and lackluster or mediocre services.

Finally, as far as being behind the times, perhaps. It is a FACT however, that within the last 12 months, the Supreme Court ruled invalid a Quebec provision FORBIDDING the purchase of private health insurance. I realize that it is possible that the Supreme Court ruled a law which didn't exist invalid, and also took up the issue which no one was interested in exploring its invalidation.

-bear

You wanted someone to take a shot? I'll give it a try.

america - The asshole of North America.:D

Good enough.

May I point you to some statistics:

http://www.who.int/whr/2005/en/index.html

Canada - http://www.who.int/whr/2005/annex/in...ountry_a-f.pdf
United States - http://www.who.int/whr/2005/annex/in...ountry_p-z.pdf

CANADA
2003
Life expectancy - Male: 78 Female: 82
2002
Total expenditure on health as % of gross domestic product: 9.6
General government expenditure on health as % of total expenditure on health: 69.9
Private expenditure on health as % of total expenditure on health: 30.1
General government expenditure on health as % of total government expenditure: 15.9

UNITED STATES
2003
Life expectancy - Male: 75 Female: 80
2002
Total expenditure on health as % of gross domestic product: 14.6
General government expenditure on health as % of total expenditure on health: 44.9
Private expenditure on health as % of total expenditure on health: 55.1
General government expenditure on health as % of total government expenditure: 23.1


Say what you like... we pay less and live longer and our coverage is universal. What galls you all is that it *is* working. And that's OK. You stick to your system and we will stick to ours.

Good luck with all that.

As for this, I misread your original response.

Provincial governments are the ones that set Health Care policy. This is why the Quebec govermenment chose to make the law they did. The fact is, as I pointed out above, private clinics are not forbidden under Canadian law. The Supreme Court up held this.

Again, the problem is that private clinics are trying to tap into public money. This should not be condoned.

You mean people want to get out what THEY put into the piss poor health care system? *gasp*

I have to wonder if Canadians could opt out of the system, what % would.

Keep saying it's a "piss poor" system... maybe one day it will be true.

What the fuck are you talking about?

Bicycles to our infantry? What regiment was that? I can see us buying bikes to help out in PT, something that the base would buy that would be stored at the gym. You want to ride a bike for PT? Here it is, bring it back when you are done.

I worked with the 10 mountain division (in the US) and they were VERY impressed with our LAV III fighting vehicles, and our Coyote recce kit.

I kid you not, your information is patently false. I admit that I selfishly want more money spent on the CF, and I look longingly at the kit the yanks get. I would not trade spaces with one of those poor fuckers for all the tea in China.

And we don't ride into battle. We provide humanitarian aid to the local population that has the unpleasant reality of living in a shitty war-torn country.

The saying is world-wide: What is the best army in the world?

American kit
German Officers
British NCO's
Canadian Troops.

Perhaps he was thinking of this:

http://bcoy1cpb.pacdat.net/BSA_1CPB_1944.jpg
http://bcoy1cpb.pacdat.net/bsa_historic.htm

It's a website about the historic use of the BSA Airbourne Bicycle.

Like I've asked in two other threads ustwo, both of which you seem to leave shortly after I asked this question so I'm not really expecting an answer, what proof do you have its a piss poor system? Have you ever used it? Or are you just going by what you read and believing it? Or maybe you think it's 'piss poor' because it isn't the American way, we all know how much americans don't like things that aren't like them.

I've used it, my friends have used it, my family has used it and *gasp* we like it, you don't oh well, guess what, you aren't the one using it

If you haven't used it then I would say you aren't qualified to comment on wether the system is good or not, much like I'm unqualified to say if the american system is 'piss poor'.

I'm not a selfish person, I don't mind that my taxes go to pay for healthcare that many people use far more than I do. Even though I go the hospital once every 5 years or so, I'm glad I live in a country where everyone has access to health care.

I don't gripe and complain about how poor a system it is just because my money benefits my fellow canadians more than it does me. Canada isn't a country where everyone is looking out for number one

It was in 1990, I was in Canada watching the news. Cant tell you which division it was, but they justified it saying the bikes were not detectable by radar and were cheap to produce. True it may have been stretching the truth saying it was "recent" but I do remember it quite vividly (my father was on transfer to the Canadian Air Force and couldn't believe they'd enact something like that).

Eh, I'd take a Jarhead Officer over a german one anyday. Our Major was sent to Iraq, got shot 4 times and refused to leave the battle. A general in D.C. had to call him over satellite phone to tell him to let someone else take over.

maybe. But given the options... there's not much better anywhere. I've had to compare experiences between here, the US, Germany, Austria, Switzerland and Sri Lanka.

We've got a pretty darn good system for the end user, which would benefit VERY greatly from some improvements in efficiencies. There are a lot of improvements that could be provided....

(no it's not free. we all contribute, and in Ontario, we are back to the old system of paying a bit off of our paycheques.)

Thank you Big Ben, I was waiting for you to contribute. Well Done.

I heard from my neighbour dad that the Germans feared the Canuck troops over all the others during both big ones. And the Allies refered to the US troops as Doughboys in WW1 (kneaded, but late to rise) and Johnny-come-lately's in WW2 because of the timeliness of their gov't involvement. Is this rumour or fact?

Actually it predates WWI. It was from the Mexican-American War. Because shining your buttons (brass) was a pain in the ass, the soldiers simply smeared them with Adobe which would easily flake off when needed and it saved the brass from oxidizing (going dull). Because of the color they looked like little balls of dough up their shirts and on their belt buckle. Hense dough-boy.

And in WWII the Brits had a great saying of us. "Over-Sexed, Over-Paid, and Over-Here"

Thank you Leto for this well reasoned contribution. I submit that government involvement by design prevents any improvement of efficiency. As the two are the antithesis of each other. A free and unfettered market place is really the only solution. Of course, "pretty darn good" is still pretty darn good and better then nothing, especially for those who contribute little or nothing to society as a whole. It's all about priorities and trade offs, I guess.

I too have my samplings from Canada (somewhat extensively), the US (extensively), The Netherlands, and the UK. In my experience nothing even comes close to the US, but I was fortunate enough to have my 880 gram 25 week preemie with heart problems and my thyroid cancer handled by arguably the best hospital system in the entire world, that being Johns Hopkins. MY orthoscopic acl repair at McGill was mired with complications, and took almost 5 years to go from diagnosis to resolution. I could be biases...hell I am CLEARLY biased, but that is my perspective. No where else has even come close to the US.

Seriously though, I think, as it is the home of my people as far back as my French beaver trapping, Kahnawá:ke Mohawk , Irish potatoe famine surviving heritage goes, that few places on earth are as spectacular, wonderful, inspiring and uplifintg as Canada. Its places, its cultures, its values, and its people (Your calling the US "north america's asshole" classless Canadians not withstanding).

-bear

I can't really speak to those terms, but it is a fact that the german's referred to the US Marines as Teufel-hunden during ww1 and why US Marines are are now affectionately known as "Devil-Dogs."
:thumbsup:

-bear

Hey, he said he wanted someone to take a shot at it and I did, don't like it oh well tough shit, you obviously need to go out and buy a sense of humor if you can't tell I was joking, it was meant in good fun much like him calling Canada "Canada - The gay hippie pothead next door?" was all in good fun. But I notice you don't make a comment about that.

Some people really need to quit taking themselves so seriously. I'm hardly classless, but of course you don't know me so just keep thinking that if it makes you feel better, I could care less what you think of me, at least I can laugh at jokes, unlike yourself, pull the coat hanger out of your shirt and loosen up.

Fine example though of why I stay out of the politics board for the most part, people take themselves far too seriously and get their panties in a bunch when someone cracks a joke, maybe you missed this at the end of my post :D
Yeah that means I was joking.

Yeah... took them 100 Years but they finally got a decent nickname.

Leatherneck (mocking the funky early uniforms) and Jarhead just aren't that flattering are they?

Talk about taking one's self too seriously. I guess I should have added a little smiley after my snip as well.

At least you read my post :thumbsup:

-bear

I kind of liked leatherneck. After the battle scarred leather collar we used to wear to protect from errant sword blades.

True enough though, Devil Dog is much better...and "earned" as the case may be.

-bear

It probably would have helped make me think it was a joke, rather than a shot at me. I never take myself seriously, hell I'm in the nonsense forum more than any other place.

You honestly bought that? A piece of leather would never stop a sword that could cut someone from their shoulder to the groin (hardened saber could easily do that). It was to keep the head straight so they dont screw up the aiming on the muskets.

And there folks is the crux of the disagreement. :D

Do we have examples of government intervention improving efficiency?

It is results that are important, not intentions.

Heh, it looks like Fox News is getting into this debate:
http://www.majorityreportradio.com/w...s/DSC00064.JPG
Some people just can't live unless they have someone to hate.

Great FoxNews, I guess that old windbag O'reilly will soon be chiming in with his usual hot air, oh well its only Fox not like people take them seriously. Except of course for the hardcore neo-cons.

See post 65. Results.

Charlatan, to see an amusing article revived and have it create this sort of typical attack response today, tells me that it is time to spend my time elsewhere. Canada Forum, perhaps.

Charlatan if you think that has ANYTHING to do with your national health care system, I have bridges to sell you. You seem like an intelligent man, perhaps you can think of reasons for the descrepancy beyond health care?

Why is a healthy disagreement with interesting and thought provoking discussion and debate a "typical attack response" in your world?

-bear

You know I mentioned it in an earlier post as well, but it was overlooked. Mine wasn't such a pointed challenge, though. Soooo, nicely done ustwo, ** you contemptible hypocrite you :thumbsup: **

-bear

**I just really wanted to repeat your awesome sig line in some way or another**

Tell us oh great ustwo wherein lies the discrepancy?

[ducks to avoid the racist BS that is about to be flying around here]

And if you're going to quote me in your sig. at least give me credit so I can get even more fanmail.

Racist BS eh? You really arn't worth responding to.

So acknowledging that Blacks and Mexicans are much more likely than any other race to live without healthcare is rascism?

Wow, Political Correctness has gone a bit far now.

That's Quebec issue, frankly, I really don't give a living shit about the french bitches.

Although, in Alberta, private health care is quickly becoming a huge debate and our premier has his mind set, he wants private health care. So, what does that mean? It means us Albertans are gonna get a choice between public or private health care. Eventually, other provinces are going to follow suit, heck, even some people in Quebec thinks there oughta be a choice. Everybody always had a choice, either they stick to the public system or head to the states for another choice. Lots of Canadian did that, when they realized that the public system sucks, they brought a plane ticket and went to a hospital in the states. That's a choice, you don't see the government saying that you can't do that do you?

Well, voice your complaint on Jan 23, the day we have our Federal Elections. If you don't vote, don't bother saying that the health care system sucks. Either that, or you can move to Alberta when private health care is becoming a reality

Further inability to respond noted. Or was I wrong? Were you going to take a different perspective? As is I'm left to believe you were about to spout some seriously racist BS.

Yes, that is real life actual racism. You are correct Seaver, but it has nothing to do with political correctness. Why doesn't that inequity exist in Canada? Surely the stats would equate proportionally, oh wait, shucks I almost forgot their system is vastly superior and doesn't leave millions of people in a healthcare lurch.

The argument that Seaver and ustwo(maybe) are presenting here is that the reason Canadians on average live longer, have lower infant mortality, and pay much less for their healtcare is that brown and black-skinned people "live without healthcare." I can't wait to hear the reasons these sages supply for why it is these people mysteriously live without medical coverage. Why would they do that?

ya there is some of that... hopefully it was an accidental or jesting post

I guess I'm not that intelligent.

Why don't you spell it out for me.

The way I see it, this vaunted healthcare tradition that Canadians are so proud of is really just a recent thing. I was born before the advent of the medicare system. My parents did ok. But we certainly are better off with the security that the insurance buys us.

I recall my mom saying that she got NO maternity leave. After I was born, she was back to work the next day. Granted, since she was a nurse at Kingston General, all that meant was that they gave her the staff rotations to schedule from her bed.

According to the literature, Medicare was pioneered by Tommy Douglas' (*) gov't in Saskatchewan in 1961, and finally adopted nationally by Canada in 1968 (one year after the Centennial!)

So we have only had it for a little over one generation and yet it has become so inextricably linked with our identity. Imagine the hew and cry if Hockey Night In Canada was threatened... (oh ya, it was gone all last year... )

As comfortable as we are in our protected existance, I see it as a temporary situation, which sadly is being eroded through the movement to private healthcare again. It's analogous to the phase that we as a society went through when public utilities were brought under government control for the good of all, back at the turn of the 19th century, only to be de-regulated 100 years later. Now we are back at profit centre power supply, and we are all paying more.

(*) Tommy was the father of actress Shirley Douglas, and is Kiefer Sutherland's grandfather: see a description of the history of public health care here is a decent link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicare_%28Canada%29