How do I benifit from the US giving 9 billion to Israel?
 

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...srael_usa_dc_5


All I get is hatred from the muslim world. I am not Jewish, nor religious. I dont care one wit for another theocracy in the Middle East. Israel has nothing to offer me, no resources, and because of our stance, the oil producing world, which like it or not, we need, hates us.

So again, what am I getting out of the Israel welfare package?

Nothing really.

How is it that israel even qualifies for us foreign aid???

Actually, they receive the most foreign aid from the USA. I guess they need help building more settlements.

Perhaps the fact that they are one of our most important strategic allies. Alot of that aid is in loans, which I don't think they have ever failed to pay back.

The reason that we send them so much aid is that our government feels that it's necessary to preserve strong ties with the only democratic state in the region.

Without letting my personal views into it, that's the biggest political reason that we have to send them anything.

Re: How do I benifit from the US giving 9 billion to Israel?
 

Also I'd say probably one of the biggest reasons the radical muslim world hates is not so much our stance on Israel, but rather our presence of troops in Saudi Arabia, that was what brought OBL into the picture.

Strategic allies against what?? Islamic countries taking over the world? Islamic countries invading europe?

- Isreali constitution

something else i found by searching

not true characteristics of a democracy.

First off, the Saudi's asked us in Saudi Arabia.

Second, anyone who thinks Israel is a democracy needs to ask they they banned Arab political parties. Only Jewish political parties in Israel. That makes them a theocracy, not a democracy.


And so far, no one has told me what I am getting out of it.

Well like Mr.Selfdestruct said they are the only friendly nation in the region. Plus if you remember the cold war the Entire Arab world was in the Soviet camp, Israel was with us.

So what if they are the only friendly nation in the region? So what if they are the only democracy in the region? Does that mean we have to give them obscene amounts of money to build more obscene weapons?
I see only 2 valid reasons for giving foreign aid: for humanitarian reasons or to promote the security of our nation.

In the case of Israel, neither of these reasons apply. Instead, I suspect the reason has more to do with political pressure than anything else. And as a result, we are actually damaging the security of this nation.

One of the main factors, alluded to in the last post, is the amazing strength of the Israeli lobby. I am not trying to "threadjack" but consider the back-lash to Dean saying we need to be 'even-handed' in the middle east. He was forced to back-track explain defend and equivocate simply for saying we should be fair. The israeli lobby is strong, very strong.

It's a trade-off.

We have lots of money.
They have many eyes and ears in the Middle East. Not to mention a top-notch military presence.

IMO - it's money well spent.

I'm with him^^

again, why exactly do we need a middle east military presence? just like why do we need those bases in saudi arabia?

and no, we dont have lots of $. we're running in a deficit right now.

If we gave say, Sryia the cash we gave Isreal, would could have a military presence there, they would be our eyes and ears, and best, we wouldnt have the hatred of the Arab world.

So again, what is all this money to Israel doing for me?

Israel is only marginally more democratic than Iran. Both have constitutional commitment to oversight by religious bodies.

Egypt was in the camp of whoever gave them money at the time. Iran, while not strictly an Arab nation, is in the region, was with the US until that whole, "Backing a murderous dictator who kills his own people" thing backfired so spectacularly.

Iraq was an ally of the US once the US fell out of love with Iran. Saudi Arabia has nominally been a US ally for much of the cold war.

Lebanon had good relations with the West until Israel invaded it. Since the US backed Israel, Lebanese are no longer so keen on the US. Pity, it was a functioning democracy, too.

At the same time, of course, Israel was selling US nuclear secrets to Aparthied era South Africa, and nowadays passes on the US millitary hardware it gets preferred access to China.

What you get is a sustainable and strong ally in the most unstable portion of the globe. It is,also, the only democratic state in the region which grants us a certain affinity with them as two democratic states have ever warred against one another. Basically, what you get is a base of operations in a region that is the greatest source of American foreign fears, a strong ally in Middle East negotiations, a sustained democratic state in VERY nondemocratic region, & loyalty that comes with long term relations. The latter is especially important in a time when America is viewed as a vigilante who strikes at will when, and where, it pleases. Helping Israel lets the foreign community at large know that America remembers who its allies are and doesn't hop ship when things get rough.

Disclaimer: This is the official story on what a strong relationship with Israel gets the American public and only gets my partial endorsement. I don't think we should hang our good friends in Israel out to dry, but I do think their Palestinian issues have gotten way out of hand and their policies are simply wrong and need to be corrected. Conversely, we aren't going to get them to change their ways by disserting them now. Friends can change your opinion, but an enemy never will.

You get a veiled threat to counter Pan Arab nationalism and other radical Muslim movements.

You get a sop for the "moderate" Arab world - meaning the Israeli government allows its citzens to continue being blown up or otherwise murdered so that you you can prove that ypu're "evenhanded"

Every time they launch an attack you get one less terrorist or homocide bomber in the world.

With all due respect, you have no idea what you are talking about.

1) Many Jews are Arabs

But, if you're refering solely to Muslim/Christian Israelis from Arab descent...


2) 10% of Israeli paliament is Arab, in line with the general population.

3) There exists many Arab parties within Israel.

But, if you're refering to the one Arab party that was for a time banned last year because the leader met various times with Hamas and in Syria (a sworn enemy of the State) called for Arab nations to stand up against Israel, then you're wrong again. The party, Balad Party, was reinstated by the Israeli Supreme Court before the election.

How's that for a theocracy?

That would be like paying the foxes to guard the henhouse.
My money says that Saddam, along with all his chemical and biological ordnance, is a protected guest of Syria. I also believe that most of the non-Iraqi fighters responsible for ambushing U.S. soldiers every day crossed into Iraq from Syria.

There's only one nation in the Middle East that shares our interests - and that is Israel.
_______________________________________________

Oh - and <b>The_Dude</b> - I meant "compared to Israel" we have lots of money. Perhaps I should have said, "We spend lots of money."

Honestly, we just need to let Israel off of their leash so they can nuke the region into oblivion and establish a "United States of Israel." We would finally have peace in the middle east. :rolleyes:

Actually, you usually end up with a few more. Which suits the present Israeli administration's agenda perfectly.

Fel owning on this one, hey fel you need to come back to shc kameha king is starting a load o religous foolishness again

<_<

>_>

Are you sure about that? I've seen every one of his points blown to pieces, and would hardly call that "ownage"..

Alot of empty rhetoric has been given about democracy and friendship, but no one has given any benefits that are not dependent upon or completely dwarfed by the significant drawbacks resulting from our relationship with Israel.

How about the first Gulf War?

If Israel & the US are not close friends, do you think that Israel would choose to stay on the sidelines after they receive almost daily bombings from another country? Can you name any other country in the world that acted (or would act) this way for a friend?

The close relationship between the US & Israel is the only thing that kept the coalition together and allowed the US to go after Saddam at all.

Turkey, Egypt, Jordan?

:confused:

Turkey gets hooked up through being in NATO, Egypt has been getting equal amounts of aid since Sadat signed the peace accords back in the late 70's.

This might clarify things:

http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2001/531/eg9.htm

Jordan:

"These were important developments, but Jordan is still a long way off from embracing true democratic reform. "
http://www.countercurrents.org/jordan-urbina080703.htm

Egypt:

"The country is now a presidential republic where despite democratic structures there is no fair chance for the opposition. "
http://www.electionworld.org/election/egypt.htm

"Political parties cannot operate legally in Egypt without a license from the Political Parties Committee of the Shura Council. Since its establishment in 1977, this government-controlled body has approved the licensing of only one new political party, in March of this year."
http://www.hrw.org/backgrounder/mena...ection-bck.htm


While things might be slowly moving towards democracy in Jordan & Egypt, to call them democracies right now isn't facing the facts. They both have a very long way to go.

Even if you concede that we would have gotten involved in the first Gulf War without our ties to Israel, I think you are off in thinking that Israel didn't retaliate just because of its friendship with the United States. Say we weren't friends with Israel at the time, you are saying they would have retaliated. This would have probably led to another Arab-Israeli War, which would have ended in Israel using WMD. According to quite a few people on this board, this would have been a desirable endpoint. So really, that's quite a weak reason to be spending all this money.

According to the most recent House Appropriations bill, Egypt gets 1.9 billion for its 50 million people, while Israel gets 2.7 billion for its 6 million people.
Personally, I think they should both be getting about 1.9 and 2.7 billion less than that.

That was probably the only thing that kept Israel from retaliating.

If you're really saying this then I don't think anything will ever change your mind.

You're arguing that:

1) The US would not have gotten involved with Iraq if it weren't for Israel? You don't think Kuwait & Saudi Arabia had anything to do with that?

2) You think that Israel would have not retaliated because of fear of turning it into a larger conflict? You can't be serious.

no you are wrong, the arabs make up 20% as yes, that party was banned true, and as of now, there is no party for the non jewish 20% arabic peoples in Israel. and again, so much for democracy.

Well, given that 1/4 of the population of Israel has no representation in the government, it may be a stretch to call Israel a democracy...

Dude, get yer facts straight.

Israeli Arabs do make up 20% (actually 17-18% but ok) but a good percentage of them (~30%) usually votes for parties such Labour so as not to split the vote with the Left and allow the Likud in. Others vote for Arab/Muslim parties such as Balad, Hadash-Ta`al, and United Arab List, not to mention all-encompassing parties like Am Echad. Contrary to what you may think not all Arabs vote for Arabs and not all Jews vote Likud/Labour.

That being said, last election 10/120 members of parliament were Arab/non-Jewish. The parliament before this one had 13 elected Arabs. One of the current elected Arabs is even part of Sharon's Likud party and IIRC he's one of Sharon's cabinet ministers.

So, here's a list of all elected members and their party affiliation:

http://www.knesset.gov.il/mk/eng/mki...eng.asp?view=1

Note the 3 Arab parties that have elected officials.

For an in-depth analysis of the Arab vote:

http://www.jafi.org.il/education/act...s/2003/c2.html

And here are all parties that were registered for the 2003 election, along with their platforms:

http://www.jafi.org.il/education/act...platforms.html

C'mon, did you really believe that Israel had banned all Arab non-Jewish parties?? If you were told that, I can understand why you have such contempt for them but realize that whoever is handing you this info is serving up some major BS for their agenda.


Debaser:

I assume that you're talking about Palestinians in the WB & Gaza... As I'm sure you know, they don't make up any percentage of Israel's population since they're not part of Israel. Israel has never nor will it ever annex the WB & Gaza. But just for argument sake, the Palestinians did have their own elections and voted in you know who.

If you are referring to Palestinians technically they want/operate their own state. If you are referring to Muslim Israeli population its sort of a misrepresentation to say that they aren't represented. Here in America we have about a 15% Muslim population and no Muslims in elected positions in the federal government. Does that mean we are not a democracy? Democracy is a style of government not another would for equality. Even before African Americans and women had voting rights we were still a democracy. Don't make the mistake of confusing modern democratic values with democratic style government

Very good point but just to be sure that folks like Food Eater Lad see this... non-Jewish Arabs ARE represented by numerous political parties AND by 10-15 (~10% of all elected members) parliamentary members each election.

As has been said many times by many people, Arabs in Israel have more voting rights than in any Arab country. I remember one poll that asked Israeli Arabs whether they would move to Palestine after it becomes a reality and a huge majority said that they would rather stay & live in Israel.

Do you know where to find that poll?

I'm not sure if this is the one I was remembering but it says the same thing:

Would the pollees themselves agree to join a Palestinian State when it is established about 78% refuse and 11.5% are ready to do so. The main reasons they note for their agreement are: since I am a Palestinian (61.4%), because of the existence of manifestations of racism against Arabs (24.1%) and because of family members on the other side (10.8%).

Of those who prefer to remain in the State of Israel, almost one-half (48.4%) stated that the reason is that they have become used to living in the State of Israel. 32.5% see a transfer to the Palestinian State as a forfeiture of their homeland and of the brotherhood of the Arab community in Israel. The economic situation plays a role only for 5.1% and the feeling of freedom in Israel as compared to what would be in a Palestinian State 8.3%.

http://friendvillarticles1102.homest...oll111102.html

Note that the 24% who would move to Palestine because of racism in Israel represents just ~3% overall (24% of 12%).

this site is among the minority out there that appears neutrally balanced with a concern for humanity as a whole opposed to one group. Thanks for the excellent link.

Not untill Trintiy is no longer a moderator.

PS who are you over there?

I thought Israel didnt retailiate cause they want the money we give them.

I read Israel was on the verge of launching nukes at Iraq during the Gulf War when they started getting hit with Scuds and were afraid of either a nuke getting shot at them or some bio/chem's

Ding Ding Ding! You've answered your own question.

I'll take a guess and say... Slaine.

Ok I cheated, I checked his aim handle.

So the New York Times, the UN and London times, and Jerusalem Times got it wrong?
Here are a list of the polical parties in the Israel Parliment as of May 2003

Parties currently holding parliamentary seats in the Parliament (Knesset):
Labour Party (Mifleget Ha'Avoda)
Labour Party Youth (Ha'Noar Ha'Oved ve-Ha'Lomed)
Likud Party (Mifleget Ha'Likud)
Betar Youth Movement (Joseph Trumpeldor Union / Brit Yosef Trumpeldor)
Meretz Party (Mifleget Ha'Meretz)
Shinui Party (Mifleget Ha'Shinui)
Other parties and associations:
Chabad-Lubavitch Movement
Green Leaf Party (Ale Yarok)
Temple Mount Faithful Movement (Tnu'at Ne'emanei Har-Habait)
State of Judea 1989

I can see all the respresentation of the 17% 10 20% of all the Islamic Arabic people.
:rolleyes:

No, they were only going to contemplate that route IF one of the missiles launched at them had a nuclear or biological warhead. And even then, they were debating what they should do in that scenario. It wasn't even clearcut that if they received WMD that would launch them as well. It depended on where it hit, how many launched, how many killed, etc. No question that they would respond but not necessarily with WMD.

Israel is not stupid, they realize that a nuclear war is not a good thing.

In any case, if it had happened, Baghdad would've been levelled at the hands of Israel & the US.

Why would anyone want to return to the oppressed nation of Palastine? How about Israelis let Palastines go to work without carrying papers, stay out after curfew, buy land without permission, electe leaders without interference. This poll is like asking if ex cons would like to go back to prison.

I do agree that had Iraq used chemicals on Israel, then Israel should be allowed to respond in kind. Asking anyone to sit still and be nuked, and or Chemical attacked is beyond human endurance.

I should have guessed, no one uses the word owned unless they are children. ;)

Listen, I have no idea where you get your info from because of the two of us, only one is backing up what they say with links.

Here's another:

http://www.israel-mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH0n130

Final Results of Elections to the 16th Knesset (2003)

Votes by party list:

LIST No. of seats No. of votes % of votes

Likud 38 925,279 29.4%
Labor-Meimad 19 455,183 14.5%
Shinui 15 386,535 12.3%
Shas 11 258,879 8.2%
National Union 7 173,973 5.5%
Meretz 6 164,122 5.2%
National Religious Party 6 132,370 4.2%
Torah and Shabbat Judaism 5 135,087 4.3%
Hadash 3 93,819 3.0%
Am Ehad 3 86,808 2.8%
National Democratic Assembly (Balad) 3 71,299 2.3%
Yisrael Ba'aliya 2 67,719 2.2%
United Arab List 2 65,551 2.1%

The bolded ones are the major Arabic parties.

And if you want specific names (since you must not have clicked on the links), here are current Arab members of parliament with their party affiliation:

http://www.knesset.gov.il/mk/eng/mki...eng.asp?view=1

Notice that it's a direct link to the Knesset.

United Arab List

Abdulmalik Dehamshe
Talab El-Sana

Hadash-Ta`al

Mohammad Barakeh
Issam Makhoul
Ahmad Tibi

Balad

Azmi Bishara
Wasil Taha
Jamal Zahalka


Likud

Majalli Whbee

I might be missing 1 since I know there are 10.

Now, please.

Dude! Read!

"...agree to join a Palestinian State when it is established..."

The poll was asking if they would move to an independant country Palestine that has no Israeli presence.

When it happens, and Palastine is free of Israeli interference, then lets ask again.

Ten people make it fair? Ok cool so by your logic the Republicans are the party of the African American?

Why do I bother? :rolleyes:

People, am I crazy or is he purposely trying to not get it?

The problem is that the Arab population of Israel is not represented proportionaly. Also you have an entire population that is disenfranchised under the convenient heading of being in an "occupied territory".

They are represented proprtionally. They make up 17% of the population and have 8% of the parliament. As shown in the links I gave, many Israeli Arabs vote outside one of the big 3 Arab parties. You do not need 17% of parliament to be Arab in order to say that they have a voice. Just like you do not need the US Congress to be 14% African American and 13% Latino and 4% Asian in order to say that they have a voice.

As a reference, the US House of Representatives currently has 37 African Americans (8.5% of the toal), Latinos have 19 Representatives (4%) and Asians have 4 (0.9%). So, we have 3 minority groups that are not represented proportionally in the US House.

Why?

1) not everyone votes along racial lines, just like in Israel
2) not all minorities vote, just like in Israel
3) it is impossible to have minorities represented as 1:1 ratio because of voting patterns. It will never happen in ANY country

Regarding your sencond point, I'm not sure if you're talking about Palestinians in the WB & Gaza or Israeli Arabs. Completely different sides of the coin. Yes, Israeli Arabs often face discrimination but that's life. Minorities everywhere, even in the US complain about it too. "White school districts get more funding than Black districts", etc. But Israeli Arabs have had success in the Israeli Supreme Court where they felt that they'd been wronged. I hope that one day they don't need that protection and that minorities everywhere face no racism but that isn't gonna happen.

But can you imagine if Iraqis or Afghanis made up 17% of the total US population? And now imagine this war going on for 50 years with major terrorist attacks on US soil occuring daily/weekly. Do you not think that the same problems would occur?

The Palestinians in the occupied territories are another story. The sooner they get their own country the better for everyone.

edited to add this link:

http://www.ethnicmajority.com/congress.htm

I guess I imagined this article.


http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/...rael.politics/

Hey, Buddy. So not only are you not reading the links I post but you're not reading what I actually write.

In maybe my first post in this thread I refered to the Arab politician who was initially banned from running because:

1) He met with leaders of Hamas
2) He went to Syria and called for continuing Arab struggle against Israel

Imagine a US Rep going to Osama bin Laden and the Taliban and to Saddam calling for their continued struggle against the US oppressor.

Anyways, the Israeli Supreme Court overturned his banning on the grounds of freedom of speach and ran and won a seat in parliament.

How do I know that you don't read what I write? He is listed as a member of Knesset under the Ta'al Party!

I can understand. Life is busy. You don't have time to read all the news, see all the reports. Maybe you have a girlfriend. She finds this stuff boring. Ok.

If you only know 1/5 of the story, just please don't form such staunch decisions about Israel. I fear that this is what most of the world has done in the past decade.

I expect you to be a man and admit it when you are wrong. If I'm going to spend time trying to broaden your horizons, I expect you to at least read what I write.

Yup, that's what I figured.

Taking what you think you knew and going around talking about the fact that Israel is a theocracy because it bans all non-Jewish parties is just ridiculous.

http://www.washington-report.org/bac...8/9801088.html

http://melbimc.nomasters.org/news/20...84_comment.php


http://www.palestineremembered.com/A.../Story811.html


http://www.palestine-un.org/news/jun97_quiet.html


These all show how Israel doent live up to its "democratic" claim.

And still no one showed me how I benifit from 9 billion to Israel.

First of all, here's a definition of "democracy" for you:

http://education.yahoo.com/reference.../d0123400.html

Since you're no longer responding to my posts showing how your previous "facts" are wrong, I'll take that as your admittance.

Now, it really doesn't do much for your cause to pick links from sites like the Washington Report (don't be fooled by the name, it's an Arab magazine funded by the Saudi government, and has two editors (Richard Curtiss and Andrew Killgore) with long links to Holocaust denial groups like the Liberty Lobby. For a glimpse at where it stands on even-handedness, take a look at their list of charities:

http://www.washington-report.org/cha...ions/index.htm

So, you'll excuse me if I ignore an opinion piece written by them, just as I'd expect you to ignore an opinon piece I post from a settler website. Same credibility.

And same goes for the "facts" listed on your site "Palestine Remembered". If they have a need to remember it, it is their own fault. They are fighting now to get what they had but rejected in both 1948 and 1967.

Regarding the new marriage law, it's an extremely controversial one, even in Israel. It was meant as a counter to numerous recent cases where it was found that Palestinians who committed acts of terrorism entered Israel from the West Bank & Gaza by marrying Israeli Arabs and obtaining Israeli citizenship. While this tries to counter that loophole, I am against it and I expect it to be repealed.

And for your last link, it's an old story and it's changed. It seems that although some sites such as "Palestine-UN" are jumping all over it, this is something that is actually based in law founded well before the current uprising. Anyways, the case was heard in the Israeli High Court of Justice and policy changed. The old law said that in order to maintain Jerusalem residency status, you needed to maintain contact with Jerusalem within a 7 year period. As in, if you moved out of Jerusalem for 7 years, you were no longer a resident. The problem was that, it used to go relatively unenforced and was now being enforced more strictly.

Here's an article on the court case:

High Court orders review of Arab residency cancellations in Jerusalem
http://www-origin.jpost.com/com/Arch...Article-7.html

And here's the change in policy:

East Jerusalemites will not be stripped of Permanent Residency even after 7 years
http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH0fvz0

And now about the $9 billion. First of all, it's $2.7/year and 2/3 of it is military, which as you may expect MUST be spent on US technology (ie purchasing equipment from Raytheon, etc). As well, the US recieves Israeli intelligence & technology pretty much whenever they want. In these post 9/11 times, Israeli intelligence is something you may want to keep.

And if you wnt another thing you get out of it, see your post on 09-17-2003 12:06 PM. We've been through this.

They rejected? If you were kicked out of your home, would you settle for anything less than getting your home back?

PS. No one explained to my the benifits I am receiving from all this aid to Israel.

I'd say that I expect you to know enough about the history that you wouldn't say such a statement but looking at the websites where you get your info from, I can't really expect that.

It's too bad. Read info from one side and one side is all you will know.

The 1948 borders were specifically drawn to have a majority of Jews in Israel and a majority of Palestinians in Palestine.

In 1967, after Israel won the WB & Gaza it offered it back in exchange for peace. There were no settlements. Take a guess as to whether that offer was accepted or not.

You're boring.

I'm all up for trying to clarify the misinformation you get from your one-sided Palestinian websites but I feel like I'm debating with a 12 year old here.

Lower interest rates? ;)

Except for the fact that 800,000 palastinians were forced out. Those "majority of jews" had to push out Palastinians that were living there before hand. And they want their homes back. This is why there will never be peace. Israelis think that they were allowed to push out people without them getting pissed off.

Nice explaination. I figured there was none.

Here we go again.

The 800,00 refugees were a result of the war, they did not exist before 1948. The war began AFTER the borders were drawn. Go read up on it.

THey did not exist before 1948? LOL and you are accusing me of being one sided? WTF.... Who lived in that area in 1946, 1944, no one? Tumble weeds?

F.E.L. I think you misread what Popo said... THERE WERE NO REFUGEES BEFORE THE CIVIL WAR IN 1948. The refugee's were a result of that war, infact many left of their own accord after Israel mopped the floor with the invading Arab and Palestinian armies.

And he is ignoring that when the future Israelis came to Israel, they had to kick out the people that were already living there. There were over 800,000 people that had to be forcebly moved . And that is the germ root of the problems. Before they were kicked out, Jews and Muslims lived in Palastine without much trouble.

What alternate reality is this you are speaking of? Before the partition there was fighting, it got only worse after the Declaration of Israel as a state.

&lt;insert twilight-zone theme&gt;

Fighting by whom? The people being forced out against the people forcing them out?

No by the people who were fighting a war for their survival and then took the initiative once they had the advantage.

Israel in 1948:

"We appeal ... to the Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel to preserve peace and participate in the building-up of the state on the basis of full and equal citizenship and representation in all its ... institutions.
"We extend our hand to all neighbouring states and their peoples in an offer of peace and goodwill, and appeal to them to establish bonds of cooperation and mutual help with the sovereign Jewish people settled in its own land."

- David Ben-Gurion in Israel's Proclamation of Independence, May 14, 1948
---------
According to official records of the League of Nations and Arab census figure 539,000 Arabs left Israel at the urging of 7 converging Arab armies so that they would not be in the way of their attack. They promised the fleeing Arabs they would return and move into the Jews' houses after the anticipated successful annihilation of the Jews.
"We know that 850,000 Jews were ejected from the Arab countries where they had lived for hundreds of years. This included successful people whose property and assets, including community assets were immediately confiscated. 750,000 penniless Jews from Arab countries fled to Israel.

"This was a virtual exchange of population. The Jewish refugees were immediately accepted by the new State of Israel. They were provided with shelter (albeit temporary tents) food and clothing.

"The Arab refugees who had migrated to various Arab nations were not similarly well received. They were regarded not as Arab brothers but as unwelcome migrants who were not to be trusted. Squalid refugee camps were set up as showpieces to induce the West's sympathy and kept that way. The UN through UNRWA (UN Relief Agency) provided assistance to the camps when the host country could not or would not. These camps became a training ground for terrorist youth to be targeted at Israel. The host country, like Syria, would provide training, weapons and explosives, but refused to absorb the Arab refugees as equal citizens. Keeping them in misery made them valuable and irreplaceable as angry front line terrorists attacking Israel as proxies for the Arab armies who lost to the Jews on the field of battle in declared wars. The Twin Pillars supporting Arab Muslim society are "Pride and Shame". Losing to the Jews on the battlefield time and again in 6 wars shattered the self perception of the Macho Man.

- Emanuel A. Winston, Middle East analyst & commentator
---------------
"Even amidst the violent attacks launched against us for months past, we call upon the sons of the Arab people dwelling in Israel to keep the peace and to play their part in building the State on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its institutions, provisional and permanent.
"We extend the hand of peace and good-neighborliness to all the States around us and to their people, and we call upon them to cooperate in mutual helpfulness with the independent Jewish nation in its Land. The State of Israel is prepared to make its contribution in a concerted effort for the advancement of the entire Middle East."

- David Ben-Gurion, in Israel's Proclamation of Independence, read on May 14, 1948, moments before the 6 surrounding Arab armies, trained and armed by the British, invaded the day-old Jewish microstate, with the stated goal of extermination.

-------
Now I am not going to be so naive as to admit that none of the refugee problem is Israels. But the fact of the matter was that the Invading Arab armies persuaded the "Palestinians" to leave only temporarily until they could stomp out the "Jewish" problem. Ofcourse its kinda tough to keep up to your word when you get your ass handed to you in 5 different conflicts.

And again, you are ignoring the fact that 780,000 people were displaced in the formation of the nation of israel.

You ignored this three times when I asked. Was the area of Israel empty when the future israelis showed up? What happened to the natives? They were forced out. Do you blame Indians for fighting the Americans?

Again, why have you neglected to answer me about The English's promise to give the people in the levant a homeland called Palastine? Why do you honor the English claim to Israel and not the claim to Palastine?
Why did you not denouce the Israel terrorism and Assassination as commited bey Began and his people in the fifties?
Why do you take the erronious stance that the natives of a people have no claim to a land? I am not talking about Saudi Arabia or any other country. I am talking about people that have lived in Palastine since Roman rule? Why do you discount them?
The answer to all my questions is that you dont care. To you, god has given Israel to Israelis. This is an unsuportable claim. This is a scary claim. This claim has as much vallidity to it as any other religous claim. Why is this claim to be taked seriously, but all other claims to be ignored?
Why did you not talk about the Islamic Claim that THEY are the true inheritors of Abraham. This is as valid as the Jewish claim, since neither can be backed up with any viable proof.
The bottom line is that a weathy minority is again pushing around a poor majority.
Also the fact that the average Israeli costs American taxpayers $23,000 is insane. How much does the average Dane cost us? Why am I paying for this religous conflict?
And througout all of this NOT ONE NATIVE TO PALASTINE WAS ASKED WHAT HE THOUGHT. Palastine was not a UN member so how could the UN have voted to give away any land that they didnt have any representatives to give that vote any authority. 780,000 people were forced out at gunpoint. Not one was ever asked, or paid for their land.
Jewish people can not come back to a land that they didnt own. I think the time limit is up after 2000 years dont you? Or does Rome still own France and England? The bottom line is this, invaders came and killed and forced people out. So if I find your address, can I come and kill your family and move into your place? I mean, might makes right, right?



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DUDE!!! Seriously you are way off base here. THe census of Israel in 1948 Put the population of the partitioned state at a little over 800,000... 150,000 were non-jewish. The 800,000 refugee's didn't show up until the Arab armies told them to get out!
No one has ignored this, you are ignoring all the responses from myself and Popo. Aso Jews didn't magically fabricate in 1948 they had been living in the area known as Palestine for hundreds of years. More started showing up when the Zionist movement began in the latter half of the 19th century.

The English didn't know what to do, thats why they handed the situation over to the U.N.

Terrorism is Terrorism, Terrorism is wrong. Nobody will refute that.

They forfeit that claim to land when they leave of their own accord. As far as the West Bank and Gaza go they were never "Palestinian" lands they were both controlled by outside soverign nations. Notice how Israel hasn't annexed the West Bank and they how many of its inhabitants retain there Jordanian citizenship???

THe U.N. gave Israel to the Israeli's. The Arab's fucked up by starting a fight that they could not finish. For better or worse this became the reality in 1948.

Palestine didn't have a say in the matter? Again a completely offbase assumption on your part. Israel wasn't a state at before 1948 its not like they were a member. U.N. envoys were sent to British controlled "Palestine" to figure out the situation their idea's where either 1) Partition or 2)intergration (Palestinians rejecting #1 Jews #2)

Are you so naive to just assume that Jews magically showed up during the 1940's??? The Zionist movement had been going on for nearly 70 years at this point. Further Israel didn't invade shit! They were attacked by 5 regular armies and won, then they took gains, but they didn't begin to extend their boundaries until 1956 and they further in 1967.

http://www.mideastweb.org/palpop.htm


I think what FEL is alluding to is the rapid influx of Jews into the region after WW1. Increasing a population by a factor of six in a mere twenty years is going to cause friction, regardless of how legitimate it is.

So Mojo, you are saying that the natives of the levant in 1947 were asked if they would like to be Israel? They peacefully said yes? Why did the British promies the natives a homeland if htey helped them fight ( watch Lawerence of Arabia) and then renege.

You are completly dismissing that PEOPLE lived in "israel" before 1948, and they were violently cast out, without representation, with out payment, and with out thought.


and yes, 780,000 people were FORCED out of the land that became Israel. This was before the war. Why are you constally saything this didnt happen?

Who forced them out at gun point???

Palestinians were at the political mercy of the Ottoman Empire and then the British Protectorate. In neither case was any attention paid to what the wishes of the Palestinians themselves though of Zionism.

Next you'll be arguing the declaration of Terra Nullis was valid in Australia!

The U.N. sent envoys to Palestine not to mention that they had a say through the Arab league. The vote on the partition passed by one vote, its not like it was a total land slide.