"Faith" is an action, based on a belief.
Christianity-ie, the determined adherence to the teachings and instruction of the Christ (Messiah), and modeling of the adherent's life to that of the example of the Christ (Messiah). is not supposed to be a "Religion", it is supposed to be a way of life.
Institutionalizing this way of life lead to traditions, corruption and forced actions of others to a way of life which by definition is a personal choice.
Jesus did not demand that anyone follow Him. He invited them to follow Him. His Apostles taught the same thing- that following the teachings of the Messiah of Israel resulted in peace of mind, body and spirit, refreshing tof the spirit and soul, communication with God through Jesus and blessings upon the adherent, the adherent's children and spouse.
The main and consistent teaching of Jesus was to Love God with all your heart , mind and spirit, and in so doing, you would love your neighbor (those you came into contact with) and yourself as a unique and wonderful creation of a very loving God, and receive salvation from your sins.
This salvation was not a meritorious award. It was not a reward for good works done or points earned. The beauty in the teachings of Jesus is that salvation and communion with a very loving God was available to everyone as a free gift from God to His children by way of the work that JESUS accomplished.
Catholicism and Christianity are two completely different animals.
According to the book of Jude, Jesus is the only High Priest needed to intercess between God and Man.
The Crusades and Inquisition were a concoction of the Pope of the Roman Catholic Church. The witch hunts were the concoction of the misguided people who forgot that Jesus was in charge and His followers were to do as He commanded, not take matters into their own hands.
The Christ (Messiah) taught patience, love, kindness and reliance upon a God who is in control of things and worth deferring to. He taught abandoning conventional thinking in order to gain real insight and wisdom and an abundant life through God.
All other teachers and philosophers spoke of many things that contained much truth, but ultimately, they all demanded that although they knew the truth, they truth began someplace other than them. Jesus was the only one who demanded that He WAS the truth and the only way to get to heaven and gain salvation was through HIM.
That upsets a lot of people who think they can tell God how to run things and that they are the arbitors of their own salvation.
It is understandable, but ultimately undo-able.

Being a Liberal who believes in God (I wouldn't say that I fit into a traditional Christian category) I think that the problem is the same as with everything else. Those who hold a belief have a tendency to want to force that belief onto other people. It's not just Christianity, it's any religion with extremist elements. Islamic nations with extremist rulers kill anyone who doesn't agree with them. Our president won't give AIDS relief money to any country that allows abortion. They're both killing people with their fundamentalism, just in different ways and differnt places.

Sez Lurkette
I'm interested too.
I'm afraid of shorsighted, lazy people. People who will listen to the person on the pulpit tell them what "their" god is all about rather than actually read their holy book. I'm afraid of people who pick and choose select verses from the bible to take out of context and use to justify bigotry.
Maybe this is bad forum manners, but on the "the two most controversial issues in politics!!" thread you implied that history will vindicate probirthers just as it did abolitionists. Not to pull out the slavery card, but how many "god fearing, moral" christians does it take to enslave a race of people?
Not to imply that christianity was solely responsible for slavery, but slavery era south hardly strikes me as liberal.

Religion doesn't scare me, what scares me is when the government starts favoring a specific religion. Its just kinda frightening considering the kind of overt and subconcious power a government has to consider the sort of influence that would weild. I mean, how many Christians out there think they would still be Christian if they were born and raised in in Iraq or Afghanistan? Beyond that look at what governments that become religious have done in its name? Finally, lets talk about protecting religion from government influence. When breaking laws and committing sins start to become the same thing...

*shivers in fear*

People are scared of persecution. Period. You'd be surprised the number of fundamentalists in this country...especially if you live in select parts of the south.

Amen, Brother!

Heh. It bothers me when people say that they are scared of the truth (religion being said "truth"), when in reality, they're just scared of being stoned to death.

Yeah...I'm coming to the uncomfortable conclusion that fear is probably the greatest motivating factor in our society.

...I would disagree.

First sex.
THEN fear.
Then power.

What scares me is the 25 million deaths christianity caused, thats on average of 62,000 per year in the existance of this church of peace.

Agreed...and also try select parts of the midwest. Sometimes these fundies make me laugh...most of the time though, they scare me shitless.

I live in a largely secular country, in a largely secular continent and an entirely secular personal world. I dont fear religion because most simply do not care for outdated beliefs designed to make them scared enough to do what they are told.

The power is not their and any reference is actually politically stamped down, tony blair himself was reprimanded on the fact of his suggesting he will be judged by god, labour (the main political party here) apparently does not 'do god.'

I fear the politcal power of christianity, its restrictive beliefs and the southern attitudes that I have no control over but lead to brit soldiers fighting an unjust war.

Whoosh! I tried - really, I did - to read each and every message in this thread. But I simply couldn't. It became just so much "I know what you REALLY mean" with responses of "The HELL you do!" with an occasional variation inserted. Sort of like political debates have become lately. Some civility, but not much accomplished. At least for this reader. Long ago I determined that my job in life is not to convert anyone to my beliefs or ways of reasoning. At the same time, whlile I am willing to listen (unless YELLED at), I am willing to accept other viewpoints - unless they involve forced change or violence. We each have a life to live. Do it in a way which makes you happy and doesn't intrude upon others..... unless invited.

This is funny. Ctrembull proves that false, and then you give an example of a Pope saving some jews. But that in no way strikes down Ctrembull's point, that shows that, at one point, Christians did indeed support the massacring [sic] of jews. If one Christian kills a jew, but one Christian saves a jew, the statement "Some Christian's kill jews" is still a valid statement.

How about "Because pagan's, heathen's, and human secularists are not wont to pick up rifles and assassinate those they object to?"


Some Christians, like some Islamists, have no compunction against murder because their ghawd tells them it's ok.

Keep your murderous religion to yourself and let me alone.

2Wolves

Little overstated, don't you think? I can certainly find secular assasains... Nor does the adjective "murderous" have any place in making a blanket description of a faith.

Irresponsiblity to reality is not an endearing quality, mmkay?

If the Native American Indians had done a better job of defending their land from white Europeans; would they, too, be considered genocidal racists?

Funny thing is, that's the way they were portrayed in the media at the time - and that cynical, stereotypical, and just-plain-wrongheaded view stayed around until the mid-to-late 20th century.

That said, what has this to do with religion and government?

Most likely yes since they are not white Europeans and the christian views at the time led to the genocides so undoubtably they would have recieved something like that.

Genocide literally means systematically trying to destroy a group. I highly doubt the Native Americans would have been viewed as such seeing as they were almost entirely trying to retain their land and way of life. Only after it became clear that the only way that could happen is by going to war against the European Americans did any systematic effort begin and even then there was no intent to destroy the group beyond what was needed to retain their status quo.