Some don't like U.S. flag at school

[BoCo]

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Some don't like U.S. flag at school
'I want to raise my children to be citizens of the world'

Posted: July 15, 2003
1:00 a.m. Eastern


Some parents in a southern Oregon town are protesting plans of the local school district to erect a flagpole and U.S. flag outside a taxpayer-supported learning center, reports the Ashland Daily Tidings.

"I feel very strongly that there should not be a flagpole and there should not be a flag," Tracy Bungay told the paper.

"I feel our country is on a strong push towards imperialism, and we're not a democratic nation anymore. I want to raise my children to be citizens of the world, and the flag does not represent ideals I want to instill in my children. It represents dominance, greed, corporate power and not freedom. I think it even represents commercialism and consumerism."

The Willow Wind Community Learning Center is a government-funded facility that supports homeschoolers who live in the district but do not attend public schools.

The Ashland School District decided it would erect the flag and flagpole this fall after 13-year-old Jesse Stanton asked that Old Glory fly outside the learning center, the Ashland paper said.

According to the report, the teen first contacted the facility's director, Debi Pew, about putting up the flag.

"She (Pew) told me when I first asked her that it would be offensive to some students and it couldn't happen," Stanton told the paper. "It was disappointing, but I wasn't completely surprised because I know there are a good deal of people there who don't look at the flag or America favorably."

Stanton says he is "one of the only ones who speaks out on my views that support patriotism and pro-Americanism," said the report.

While Oregon law requires that both a U.S. flag and state flag fly at every "public school building," it was unclear to district officials whether or not the learning center – technically not a "school" – fell under the requirement. According to the report, officials decided the building, since it was supported by district funds, was subject to the regulation.

Some anti-flag parents felt the issue should have come up for a vote of affected families.

"I think everyone in our community at Willow Wind should have a say in this," Julie Bedford told the Daily Tidings. "One person does not have the right to go above everyone's heads. It's completely the opposite of democracy."

Stanton's mother told the paper she was convinced if the issue did go before the parents, the flag would be rejected.

"We are the minority at the community learning center," Anne Stanton said, according to the report. "We are going to get the flag there because it's public law, but if we just had to work with [the Community Learning Center] it would probably be vetoed because we're the minority."
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Love it or leave it, assholes!

[nash]

Wow I think they should stfu and live in the middle of the ocean if they don't feel like seeing flags around.

[spectre]

Originally posted by BoCo
Love it or leave it, assholes!

I have to agree. All of this PC bullshit is annoying the crap out of me. Fine, you don't agree with what the administration is doing, but to not put up the flag because it offends you? ugh. Grow up.

[gov135]

All of the problems in their communities - in every community.
And these people let themselves get worked up over this issue.
What a waste of energy.

[tikki]

Originally posted by BoCo
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Some don't like U.S. flag at school

...then move to Cananda.

[MikeyChalupa]

Do we need separation of state and state now?

-Mikey

[Fallon]

Ugh, this is pathetic...I'm not going to say anything because I don't have anything nice to say...

[billege]

What does one say about this? It's crap? Obvious. It's a poorly thought out reaction to the flag? Duh.

The flag means a lot of different things to a lot of different people.

What these people have forgotten, is that this country has always stood for respecting rights of other. They've forgotten that the flag stands for them too.

It's unfortunate they can't see to teach thier kids those values.

[lurkette]

This is the silliest thing I've seen all day. They don't want a flag outside a taxpayer-supported learning center? Good grief. Home school your kids, then. If you object to your country's policies, VOTE!!! Protest! Engage in civil disobedience! Run for office! But don't go wasting our time with this kind of crap. Honestly, people.

[tinfoil]

Originally posted by tikki
...then move to Cananda.

No way... I don't want unpatriotic idiots living in my country either.

What the hell is the problem here? Be proud of your country. Why would your country's flag be considered offensive? If that's the case, get the hell out.

[rockogre]

Sounds like we need to ship some folks to upper Slobovia for a while and see how they like it. For all their protestations they certainly don't sound like United States citizens.

Just some more of the crazed, fringe minority trying to push the majority around.

[seretogis]

Originally posted by gov135
What a waste of energy.

And soon to be a waste of state and federal judicial resources.

If they don't want to have to fly a flag, they can simply decline all state and federal subsidies.

[absorbentishe]

Ahhh. The flag does NOT stand for imperialism, corporate power, greed, dominance. STFU. These panty wastes need to live in a different country run by PUSSIES that have no back bone, and give in to every last request. How dare they disrespect not only our country, but the flag. They have their children in a tax payer funded "learning center".

[raeanna74]

If it's a facility for homeschoolers then they don't have to use it. There are plenty of other places to meet and do their own things. Since it's a government funded facility, they are using government funds to support their homeschooling effort and they since are homeschooling I assume that it is in order to avoid having the government dictate what their children learn this is already a contradiction. The American flag represents so much more than commercialism and all those negative things mentioned above. It represents our history and the colors of the flag represent admirable qualities. If they don't like it I dont' think they should be using the "government funded" facility. I would say just the fact the government is willing to assist their effort to homeschool they should at least pay it some respect for simply allowing them to homeschool. In my state even when I was schoolage homeschooling was not even legal. It had only been legal for a few years when my parents began homeschooling me. This is rediculous and disrespective. Don't bite the hand that feeds you - If you dont' like the hand just don't eat out of it. DUH!

[shalafi]

They dont like commercialism and consumerism? What do they want communism?? We've seen how well that works. They should go try living in Red China or Vietnam for a while to see how they like it. Wont find too many American flags flying there.

[Bill O'Rights]

Jesus H. Christ!!! I am so pissed off right now, I can't even think, much less formulate an intelligent response to this complete and total bullshit!!!! If the flag that I served under offends you so goddamn much....then GET THE FUCK OUTTA MY COUNTRY!!!!

[Gortexfogg]

Those people make me sick. They can go move into the UN if they want their children to grow up in a 'world community'.

And they say, "Oh, we should vote on whether to keep the flag up". They technically did. They elected the officials who made and passed the law that requires a flag at government funded schools.

[MSD]

Originally posted by lurkette
If you object to your country's policies, VOTE!!! Protest! Engage in civil disobedience! Run for office!

I do vote, but last time I protested and spoke about my views (during the Iraq war) I was physically assaulted and called a number of names. If I engage in civil disobediance, I lose any hope of financial assistance for college, and lose my federal loans. I would run for office, but it seems that everyone considers anyone less than twice my age incompetent to hold any position that would be able to make a difference. Even in local government, it's impossible to run for office without being rich.

I agree that it's pointless and immature to object to the existance of a flag, but I do say that nobody should be forced to stand and salute.

[PatrickBateman]

I think it's good that this community is fighting for what they believe, because when you don't, things like the Holocaust happen. However, if you feel that America is a representation of evil and it supports ideals that you don't want instilled in your children, why are you raising them here?

[grayman]

This is the same kind of crap that has been sending the society in this country into a tailspin for years. You can't do anything if it offends anyone. What happened to majority rules? This is total bullshit!

[Derwood]

Originally posted by PatrickBateman
I think it's good that this community is fighting for what they believe, because when you don't, things like the Holocaust happen. However, if you feel that America is a representation of evil and it supports ideals that you don't want instilled in your children, why are you raising them here?

you're not implying that letting the american flag outsidethis school is going to result in the murder of millions of jews, are you?

[JStrider]

"It represents dominance, greed, corporate power and not freedom. I think it even represents commercialism and consumerism."

ok... a lot of that is true... but freedom... she has the freedom to say she doesnt like the flag... im sure theres several countries where she would be tried as a traitor and shot...

and commercialism and consumerism... any country that has a free market economy will have those...

[lurkette]

We agree on the basic principles, but...

Originally posted by MrSelfDestruct
[B]I do vote, but last time I protested and spoke about my views (during the Iraq war) I was physically assaulted and called a number of names. [b]

Nobody should be assaulted for speaking their mind, but the name calling is harmless and you have to expect to ruffle feathers when you're bucking the status quo.

If I engage in civil disobediance, I lose any hope of financial assistance for college, and lose my federal loans.

What if that's the price of freedom and a clear conscience? We all seem to think that liberty should be painless and should come without struggle or effort. Sometimes you have to be willing to make sacrifices, or at the very least to be resourceful in the face of overwhelming resistance.

I would run for office, but it seems that everyone considers anyone less than twice my age incompetent to hold any position that would be able to make a difference. Even in local government, it's impossible to run for office without being rich.

This is the kind of apathetic reasoning that keeps decent people from running and basically hands elections to the elite. It's not impossible to run without being rich, though it may be exceedingly difficult to win if you're not rich. Sometimes just the act of running shifts the discourse and brings ideas to the public debate that may otherwise be left unsaid.

I agree that it's pointless and immature to object to the existance of a flag, but I do say that nobody should be forced to stand and salute.

They're not forced to stand and salute. The mere existence of a flag on property does not require any kind of allegiance. If they are willing to use taxpayer dollars to fund their learning center, they should be subject to the applicable laws. You can't have it both ways - take public money given by the grace of the state, and then turn around and refuse to abide by the laws of the state. If they're so fucking principled, why don't they just decline to use the government-supported learning center, or at the very least decline government funding? Because nobody wants to sacrifice anything for their views anymore, but everyone demands that their opinions be accommodated. I agree with them that the US is a symbol of capitalism, greed, consumerism, imperialism, etc. But I also believe that the flag itself can be seen as a symbol of the good things about America - tolerance, diversity, flexibility, freedom, etc. There are more productive ways to teach one's children about the values you want to instill than making a huge and hypocritical issue about a piece of cloth.

[rogue49]

I'm not some kind of uber-patriot.
However, I do respect where I was born & I live.
And I appreciate what we do have.
And I would fight to protect it and those that live here, if called upon.

I say to them, "Deal with it".
They need to understand that while they can protest the policies & actions of the environment & government,
they should also honor the land that allows them to thrive and/or survive.
Especially within entities that are supported by that nation and state.
The flag is a symbol of representation of this land.

No person is an island.
I'm not saying you can't protest.
I am saying you can't request that kind of symbol that binds us to be withdrawn.

[merkerguitars]

People like that bitch about stuff like that should be put in a wooden box and shipped out into the middle of the ocean.

[butthead]

"Love it or leave it" seems pretty dumb.

But then agian, so does removing a flag to be "citizens of the world".

[Phaenx]

Originally posted by absorbentishe
Ahhh. The flag does NOT stand for imperialism, corporate power, greed, dominance. STFU. These panty wastes need to live in a different country run by PUSSIES that have no back bone, and give in to every last request. How dare they disrespect not only our country, but the flag. They have their children in a tax payer funded "learning center".

Which, ironically, is PC-nese for "stupid kid school." Stupid must run in the family.

[crow_daw]

That pisses me off beyond words, that shit is totally uncalled for.

[punx1325]

She may not like the flag....sooo move back to the country where you were torchered and worked as a slave. Seriously, some ppl are so anti-american today it sickens me. We all should be so lucky to live in a country where it protect the rights of everyone, even people in other countries.

[hawkeye]

christ. move to france if you want to be an asshole please.

[Lebell]

Originally posted by Gortexfogg
And they say, "Oh, we should vote on whether to keep the flag up". They technically did. They elected the officials who made and passed the law that requires a flag at government funded schools.

They must not have gotten to the "Civics" section in the McGuffy homeschooling kit.

[Destrox]

What the mother fucking hell is this?

If you have a issue, leave the fucking country.

Thats part of your freedom of choice, we wont stop you from leaving.

[MSD]

Originally posted by lurkette
They're not forced to stand and salute. The mere existence of a flag on property does not require any kind of allegiance.

The reason I made a comment about that is that by school district policy, students at my high school would be suspended for not standing and reciting the pledge of allegiance.

As for the not being able to run, locally, a friend of mine tried to run for first selectman to raise awareness of issues with the cutting of the education budget. He was laughed at, and denied permission. Our town doesn't have any write-in system for voting. Until I'm old enough to be taken seriously as a candidate, I'll continue to try to raise awareness about issues that affect me.

[MacGnG]

if our country can't be represented by our flag maybe it can be represented by those people? oh yea they dont want to be here....

[Bill O'Rights]

Originally posted by MrSelfDestruct
...students at my high school would be suspended for not standing and reciting the pledge of allegiance.

...a friend of mine tried to run for first selectman to raise awareness of issues with the cutting of the education budget. He was laughed at, and denied permission.

First of all...let me say that I disagree with your schools policy <b>only</b> in that I don't believe in forcing <b>anyone</b> to recite the Pledge of Allegience. That is a personal choice. You <b>will</b>, however stand and show respect for the flag.

Second off...I don't know what your community's charter/constitution says about the qualifications for running for office. There may well be age restrictions written in to it. You and your friend may want to research it. If he was qualified...then you may have a case against them.

[sexymama]

As a teacher, I can tell you that in Oregon and California at least, no student is forced to pledge the flag. They are required to stand respectfully while others pledge.

That said, aren't we blessed to live in a country where we can share these views and not be persecuted? The flag reperesents these freedoms. God bless America!

[Nisses]

Then the flag represents the right to ask to not have to see a flag ?
Seems possible to me, no?

[Cynthetiq]

i'm not even going to waste more typing or time on this issue...

[raeanna74]

Originally posted by Nisses
Then the flag represents the right to ask to not have to see a flag ?
Seems possible to me, no?

I don't know about you but it seems like an oxymoron to me to say this. If someone gives you money - often you owe them something in return if nothing more than respect. These people are using a facility that the government pays for then they should respect the government for that and the flag represents our government. Of course our government has many flaws but we must remember that some of our basic freedoms are still there. Had you lived in Russia while it was still the Soviet Union you would understand how much freedom we truely have here. My generation has grown up not knowing a personal threat to our freedom except for the bombing in NY a year and a half ago. We have not lived with a threat of another country wishing to destroy us. I dont' think we can truely understand that unless we listen to our grandparents or the narratives of those who have fought in wars and passed on. I am speaking this from the position of one who has been homeschooled and intends to homeschool my child. I have been a teacher and allowed certain students, who chose not to pledge to the flag, the freedom to remain silent. We discussed their reasons in class carefully and the other students learned their reasons and respected them for it. If you choose not to pledge allegence to the flag that is your choice but do not expect to recieve money or use a facility sponsered by the government and pitch a fit about the government erecting a flag in front of their facility. If you don't like it don't use the facility. It's as simple as that.

[Phaenx]

Originally posted by Nisses
Then the flag represents the right to ask to not have to see a flag ?
Seems possible to me, no?

No.