Some don't like U.S. flag at school
 

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Some don't like U.S. flag at school
'I want to raise my children to be citizens of the world'

Posted: July 15, 2003
1:00 a.m. Eastern


Some parents in a southern Oregon town are protesting plans of the local school district to erect a flagpole and U.S. flag outside a taxpayer-supported learning center, reports the Ashland Daily Tidings.

"I feel very strongly that there should not be a flagpole and there should not be a flag," Tracy Bungay told the paper.

"I feel our country is on a strong push towards imperialism, and we're not a democratic nation anymore. I want to raise my children to be citizens of the world, and the flag does not represent ideals I want to instill in my children. It represents dominance, greed, corporate power and not freedom. I think it even represents commercialism and consumerism."

The Willow Wind Community Learning Center is a government-funded facility that supports homeschoolers who live in the district but do not attend public schools.

The Ashland School District decided it would erect the flag and flagpole this fall after 13-year-old Jesse Stanton asked that Old Glory fly outside the learning center, the Ashland paper said.

According to the report, the teen first contacted the facility's director, Debi Pew, about putting up the flag.

"She (Pew) told me when I first asked her that it would be offensive to some students and it couldn't happen," Stanton told the paper. "It was disappointing, but I wasn't completely surprised because I know there are a good deal of people there who don't look at the flag or America favorably."

Stanton says he is "one of the only ones who speaks out on my views that support patriotism and pro-Americanism," said the report.

While Oregon law requires that both a U.S. flag and state flag fly at every "public school building," it was unclear to district officials whether or not the learning center – technically not a "school" – fell under the requirement. According to the report, officials decided the building, since it was supported by district funds, was subject to the regulation.

Some anti-flag parents felt the issue should have come up for a vote of affected families.

"I think everyone in our community at Willow Wind should have a say in this," Julie Bedford told the Daily Tidings. "One person does not have the right to go above everyone's heads. It's completely the opposite of democracy."

Stanton's mother told the paper she was convinced if the issue did go before the parents, the flag would be rejected.

"We are the minority at the community learning center," Anne Stanton said, according to the report. "We are going to get the flag there because it's public law, but if we just had to work with [the Community Learning Center] it would probably be vetoed because we're the minority."
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Love it or leave it, assholes! :mad:

Wow I think they should stfu and live in the middle of the ocean if they don't feel like seeing flags around.

Re: Some don't like U.S. flag at school
 

I have to agree. All of this PC bullshit is annoying the crap out of me. Fine, you don't agree with what the administration is doing, but to not put up the flag because it offends you? ugh. Grow up.:rolleyes:

All of the problems in their communities - in every community.
And these people let themselves get worked up over this issue.
What a waste of energy.

Re: Some don't like U.S. flag at school
 

...then move to Cananda.

Do we need separation of state and state now?

-Mikey

Ugh, this is pathetic...I'm not going to say anything because I don't have anything nice to say...

What does one say about this? It's crap? Obvious. It's a poorly thought out reaction to the flag? Duh.

The flag means a lot of different things to a lot of different people.

What these people have forgotten, is that this country has always stood for respecting rights of other. They've forgotten that the flag stands for them too.

It's unfortunate they can't see to teach thier kids those values.

This is the silliest thing I've seen all day. They don't want a flag outside a taxpayer-supported learning center? Good grief. Home school your kids, then. If you object to your country's policies, VOTE!!! Protest! Engage in civil disobedience! Run for office! But don't go wasting our time with this kind of crap. Honestly, people.

Re: Re: Some don't like U.S. flag at school
 

No way... I don't want unpatriotic idiots living in my country either.

What the hell is the problem here? Be proud of your country. Why would your country's flag be considered offensive? If that's the case, get the hell out.

Sounds like we need to ship some folks to upper Slobovia for a while and see how they like it. For all their protestations they certainly don't sound like United States citizens.

Just some more of the crazed, fringe minority trying to push the majority around.

And soon to be a waste of state and federal judicial resources.

If they don't want to have to fly a flag, they can simply decline all state and federal subsidies.

Ahhh. The flag does NOT stand for imperialism, corporate power, greed, dominance. STFU. These panty wastes need to live in a different country run by PUSSIES that have no back bone, and give in to every last request. How dare they disrespect not only our country, but the flag. They have their children in a tax payer funded "learning center".

If it's a facility for homeschoolers then they don't have to use it. There are plenty of other places to meet and do their own things. Since it's a government funded facility, they are using government funds to support their homeschooling effort and they since are homeschooling I assume that it is in order to avoid having the government dictate what their children learn this is already a contradiction. The American flag represents so much more than commercialism and all those negative things mentioned above. It represents our history and the colors of the flag represent admirable qualities. If they don't like it I dont' think they should be using the "government funded" facility. I would say just the fact the government is willing to assist their effort to homeschool they should at least pay it some respect for simply allowing them to homeschool. In my state even when I was schoolage homeschooling was not even legal. It had only been legal for a few years when my parents began homeschooling me. This is rediculous and disrespective. Don't bite the hand that feeds you - If you dont' like the hand just don't eat out of it. DUH!

They dont like commercialism and consumerism? What do they want communism?? We've seen how well that works. They should go try living in Red China or Vietnam for a while to see how they like it. Wont find too many American flags flying there.

Jesus H. Christ!!! I am so pissed off right now, I can't even think, much less formulate an intelligent response to this complete and total bullshit!!!! If the flag that I served under offends you so goddamn much....then GET THE FUCK OUTTA MY COUNTRY!!!!

Those people make me sick. They can go move into the UN if they want their children to grow up in a 'world community'.

And they say, "Oh, we should vote on whether to keep the flag up". They technically did. They elected the officials who made and passed the law that requires a flag at government funded schools.

I do vote, but last time I protested and spoke about my views (during the Iraq war) I was physically assaulted and called a number of names. If I engage in civil disobediance, I lose any hope of financial assistance for college, and lose my federal loans. I would run for office, but it seems that everyone considers anyone less than twice my age incompetent to hold any position that would be able to make a difference. Even in local government, it's impossible to run for office without being rich.

I agree that it's pointless and immature to object to the existance of a flag, but I do say that nobody should be forced to stand and salute.

I think it's good that this community is fighting for what they believe, because when you don't, things like the Holocaust happen. However, if you feel that America is a representation of evil and it supports ideals that you don't want instilled in your children, why are you raising them here?

This is the same kind of crap that has been sending the society in this country into a tailspin for years. You can't do anything if it offends anyone. What happened to majority rules? This is total bullshit!

you're not implying that letting the american flag outsidethis school is going to result in the murder of millions of jews, are you?

"It represents dominance, greed, corporate power and not freedom. I think it even represents commercialism and consumerism."

ok... a lot of that is true... but freedom... she has the freedom to say she doesnt like the flag... im sure theres several countries where she would be tried as a traitor and shot...

and commercialism and consumerism... any country that has a free market economy will have those...

We agree on the basic principles, but...

Nobody should be assaulted for speaking their mind, but the name calling is harmless and you have to expect to ruffle feathers when you're bucking the status quo.

What if that's the price of freedom and a clear conscience? We all seem to think that liberty should be painless and should come without struggle or effort. Sometimes you have to be willing to make sacrifices, or at the very least to be resourceful in the face of overwhelming resistance.

This is the kind of apathetic reasoning that keeps decent people from running and basically hands elections to the elite. It's not impossible to run without being rich, though it may be exceedingly difficult to win if you're not rich. Sometimes just the act of running shifts the discourse and brings ideas to the public debate that may otherwise be left unsaid.

They're not forced to stand and salute. The mere existence of a flag on property does not require any kind of allegiance. If they are willing to use taxpayer dollars to fund their learning center, they should be subject to the applicable laws. You can't have it both ways - take public money given by the grace of the state, and then turn around and refuse to abide by the laws of the state. If they're so fucking principled, why don't they just decline to use the government-supported learning center, or at the very least decline government funding? Because nobody wants to sacrifice anything for their views anymore, but everyone demands that their opinions be accommodated. I agree with them that the US is a symbol of capitalism, greed, consumerism, imperialism, etc. But I also believe that the flag itself can be seen as a symbol of the good things about America - tolerance, diversity, flexibility, freedom, etc. There are more productive ways to teach one's children about the values you want to instill than making a huge and hypocritical issue about a piece of cloth.

I'm not some kind of uber-patriot.
However, I do respect where I was born & I live.
And I appreciate what we do have.
And I would fight to protect it and those that live here, if called upon.

I say to them, "Deal with it".
They need to understand that while they can protest the policies & actions of the environment & government,
they should also honor the land that allows them to thrive and/or survive.
Especially within entities that are supported by that nation and state.
The flag is a symbol of representation of this land.

No person is an island.
I'm not saying you can't protest.
I am saying you can't request that kind of symbol that binds us to be withdrawn.

People like that bitch about stuff like that should be put in a wooden box and shipped out into the middle of the ocean.

"Love it or leave it" seems pretty dumb.

But then agian, so does removing a flag to be "citizens of the world".

Which, ironically, is PC-nese for "stupid kid school." Stupid must run in the family.

That pisses me off beyond words, that shit is totally uncalled for.

She may not like the flag....sooo move back to the country where you were torchered and worked as a slave. Seriously, some ppl are so anti-american today it sickens me. We all should be so lucky to live in a country where it protect the rights of everyone, even people in other countries.

christ. move to france if you want to be an asshole please.

They must not have gotten to the "Civics" section in the McGuffy homeschooling kit.

What the mother fucking hell is this?

If you have a issue, leave the fucking country.

Thats part of your freedom of choice, we wont stop you from leaving.

The reason I made a comment about that is that by school district policy, students at my high school would be suspended for not standing and reciting the pledge of allegiance.

As for the not being able to run, locally, a friend of mine tried to run for first selectman to raise awareness of issues with the cutting of the education budget. He was laughed at, and denied permission. Our town doesn't have any write-in system for voting. Until I'm old enough to be taken seriously as a candidate, I'll continue to try to raise awareness about issues that affect me.

if our country can't be represented by our flag maybe it can be represented by those people? oh yea they dont want to be here....

First of all...let me say that I disagree with your schools policy <b>only</b> in that I don't believe in forcing <b>anyone</b> to recite the Pledge of Allegience. That is a personal choice. You <b>will</b>, however stand and show respect for the flag.

Second off...I don't know what your community's charter/constitution says about the qualifications for running for office. There may well be age restrictions written in to it. You and your friend may want to research it. If he was qualified...then you may have a case against them.

As a teacher, I can tell you that in Oregon and California at least, no student is forced to pledge the flag. They are required to stand respectfully while others pledge.

That said, aren't we blessed to live in a country where we can share these views and not be persecuted? The flag reperesents these freedoms. God bless America!

Then the flag represents the right to ask to not have to see a flag ?
Seems possible to me, no?

i'm not even going to waste more typing or time on this issue...

I don't know about you but it seems like an oxymoron to me to say this. If someone gives you money - often you owe them something in return if nothing more than respect. These people are using a facility that the government pays for then they should respect the government for that and the flag represents our government. Of course our government has many flaws but we must remember that some of our basic freedoms are still there. Had you lived in Russia while it was still the Soviet Union you would understand how much freedom we truely have here. My generation has grown up not knowing a personal threat to our freedom except for the bombing in NY a year and a half ago. We have not lived with a threat of another country wishing to destroy us. I dont' think we can truely understand that unless we listen to our grandparents or the narratives of those who have fought in wars and passed on. I am speaking this from the position of one who has been homeschooled and intends to homeschool my child. I have been a teacher and allowed certain students, who chose not to pledge to the flag, the freedom to remain silent. We discussed their reasons in class carefully and the other students learned their reasons and respected them for it. If you choose not to pledge allegence to the flag that is your choice but do not expect to recieve money or use a facility sponsered by the government and pitch a fit about the government erecting a flag in front of their facility. If you don't like it don't use the facility. It's as simple as that.

No.

you should be proud you live in america
the worst thing i have heard about flag stuff was in fayetteville arkansas there was a school there that actually had students demanding that the american flag be replaced with a mexican one.

You people have obviously never been to Oregon. They must have gotten bored of looking for the black U.N. helicopters...

"Citizens of the world"?? Oh, no they didn't....
gak.

That's one of the dumbest ways to protest against America I've heard. A government funded building like a school has every right to raise the American flag. The people protesting should find something useful to do instead of trivializing their complaints with petty issues like this.

What was that south park quote?

something like:

"If you aren't going to root for the home team, get the fuck out of the stadium"

Just the "citizens of the world" is plain stupid anyways.

Anyways if a school or stuff forces people to do the pledge of allegiance then i can seriously say that is screwed up. They shouldn't force anyone who doesn't want to. People standing and not saluting fine, but forcing to is another.

As for the holocaust analogy.. he wasn't talking of the flag. he was saying if people didn't question the gov't then it would lead to such thigns which in a sense is true though the flag issue is something different.

Personally on the topic of running for office... i do wish it were easier for the not-so-rich but hey rich people make the rules and always leave openings for others of the club! :D

Re: Some don't like U.S. flag at school
 

Stupid comments like this make me sorry to be an American. And before you give me your "America #1!! GO USA!" speech I want to tell you that I too think this idea of not having the US flag up is pretty dumb. But you could have expressed your comment in a more civilized fashion and not made yourself look like a “dumb American.”

Re: Re: Some don't like U.S. flag at school
 

People who like America are stupid, and not elaborating on said fondness makes them even more so.

That's an interesting theory, even if it's wrong. But I propose that people who don't read the forum rules and insist on insulting other members are the ones who deserve these types of vitriolic comments.

I didnt even to read the article to have an opinion. Freedom in this country is our biggest strength as well as ourt biggest weakness. For every freedom that is exercised in a positive way someone else can find a way to use that freedom to justify a hramful behavior or act. I love America and what it has given me in the way of freedom and I think one of its strengths is the public school system(at least in mycase) I pay taxes so others can be educated and that is a service of America. If you dont want your kid to be exposed to an American flag keep your child away from the institutions of America.

Immigration made this country great. Now we need some significant emigration to keep it great.

In other words, if you think this is such a terrible place, don't let the door hit you on the ass on your way to whatever utopia you're sure is out there.

Re: Re: Some don't like U.S. flag at school
 

Fuck that...keep them outta my country :mad:

they have the right to protest all they want, and that doesnt mean they should leave the country.

my stance = it's state property and the state has the right to put state flags/banners up.

Re: Some don't like U.S. flag at school
 

Errmm last time I checked we were a REPUBLIC. The fact that the person said this was a democratic nation just proves her ignorance in any matter pertaining to the government and therefore her/his opinion shouldn't count on something so important as our nations flag. I can understand not liking what the government does sometimes but when you turn your back on the flag you are IMO in essence turning your back on your heritage and the men and women who shed their blood for that flag and for you. Things like this really bug me.

i think the flag should fly outside the school because it is operated under taxpayers' money and i agree with most people's comments about these people being whiners, But they are voicing their opinions and last time i checked, we had the right to do that. there's no need to tell them to " Get the fuck out of my country" or that they should "Love it or leave it assholes" that attitude along with the how us americans are becoming greedier makes me dislike the state of our country. I still Love the land of the free and the home of the brave with alot of passion, however.

The point is they won't leave, because USA #1! But I'll keep in mind next time I feel like speaking up against idiocy that I don't have that particular right in this country that I enjoy so much.

Also, greed in our economic system is good. We want people to go out and strive to be the best, to get the fanciest car, and to have the biggest house, because that's why we're richer then the commies.

... and why we also have some serious issues...

i dunno i think this thing has been beaten to death

now to find a picture of a bunch of people and a dead horse and you know what happens next

bastards... how come they can tell us we're evil and warmongers, but if we call them unpatirotic or say...... TRAITORS!! then we're bad people. if this was WWII those fuckers would be executed.

...as we cross into jingoism...

...BTW, TioTaco, no one told you that you were "evil and warmongers." Get a grip...

Last time I checked this doesn't even effect one of the people posting here in this thread. I went to the university in Ashland and am not offended by this--no surprise there?

Anyway, according to the passage, the "anti" people were in the majority. Also, this is "their" country, as well. That being the case, it seems more plausible that any "assholes" should just stay out of Ashland and allow the majority to decide what they want flying in their fucking community--isn't that what most of you argue?

Tow the line of the majority or get the fuck out of the country?

Well, tow the line of their community's majority and stay the fuck out of their business.

edit: if you want to see a flag waving around, drive 40 miles north to Grants Pass--don't worry, you won't miss 'em boys. Shit, *spit*, you might even see ones hangin' from dat thar big plastic caveman standing by the freeway exit.

Four words (really its three because on is hyphenated but you get the idea), Tough shit, and, shut-up

...never mind.

Vrsn 2.0
Four words: Tough shit, Shut up

They are citizens of the US. The flag represents that. In international schools, they fly the flags of all their students. If they want to relinquish their citizenship and go to a non-public funded school, thats their choice. But as long as there are Americans going to a school paid for by American taxpayers, the admin should have the right to signify this. I'm not saying that the students should have to respect the flag, far from it. But the school was paid for by America, so it should be able to fly the American flag.

This isn't at a school.

The Willow Wind Community Learning Center is a government-funded facility that supports homeschoolers who live in the district but do not attend public schools.

These are people who have chosen to homeschool their children rather than utilize the public school system for their children's education--for whatever reason.

Evidently, the children have to go to this center for some particular reason--likely to take state mandated, standardized tests and other activities of that nature.
Obviously parents shouldn't have to expose their children to a flag they disagree with if they choose to educate their children at home, as they see fit, but are required to turn their homework in or take mandatory tests in a government subsidized building established by the same government they don't want educating and/or indoctrinating their children.

yes, it is a govt funded facility.

so shouldnt a tax paying citizen have the right to change the policies of the govt??

smooth
why do they live here then.
nm this discussion has been beaten to death

cuz they have a right to!

just cuz you dont like a certain aspect of the country doesnt mean you should move out!

compare this situation with while u were livin w/ your parents. if you dont like a certain rule that they imposed, did you move out???

The aspect they don't like is the flag, which represents the entire country, all of it's citizens, principles and ideals.

So yeah, I would say if they don't like that, maybe they should find a place that suits them better.

Ummm yeah, I did.

lol, u are an exception then.


take another example.

the pledge. there are lots of people opposed to it cuz of "under god". so all those people should move out also?

everyone that doesnt agree with the majority opinion has to move out?

I've said it before and I'll say it again.

If you don't like it, don't leave. Vote!

First of all, they don't need to leave--the people against the placing a flag at the facility in this community are in the majority. Like Pennington stated--why not vote? Ah, the lady suggested that, but the flag placing supporter complained that his "side" would lose because his views were in the minority.

So fucking what the facility is funded by tax dollars. It isn't funded by your tax dollars--it's funded by their local tax dollars and--guess what--they don't want a fucking flag there on a building funded by their tax dollars. Seems pretty clear cut to me--but then again, I don't contradict my own damn principles like the majority of posters in this thread have.

The flag doesn't merely represent all the good things in this country to everyone. Some people love this country yet don't want the flag waved in their faces currently and don't want it misused. The lady claimed she felt it was a symbol of corporate coruption.

This isn't a school--quit regurgitating the title and read the article. The government doesn't have an issue with this--if it did, the facility would have a flag because that's the law (if it were considered a school) in Oregon.

Guess what--this is one guy who wants to place a flag on the facility grounds. Yet, somehow you posters want to support that position, despite it going against the will of the majority in a local community who pay for the building and are required by law to utilize it, because you agree with the one boy.

It's pretty simple, really. Using the same argument that you so often employ--the whole community shouldn't move, the boy should move 40 minutes north and attend a school in Grants Pass where there are flags on every corner.

Some people equate this attitude with jingoism rather than an espousal of US values. Judging by the response on this thread--"Get the fuck out of the country"--it appears their fears and reticence to support such attitudes are well founded.

If the parents don't like the US flag flying on the campus of their meathead children's school, they can send them to a private school. Any school that receives federal or state funds should have to abide by its rules. The "living at your parent's house" analogy is very valid, as the school (or meathead-training facility, whatever you want to call it) receives government funds. If it did not receive government funds, they could fly a flag with a swastika on it if they wanted, but they do. I don't see what is so difficult to understand about this.

*sigh*

You seem to have the difficulty:

These parents are homeschooling their children.

The facility (where they presumably have to take state mandated tests and drop off homework) is funded by their local tax dollars.

Why should they send them to a private school? Isn't home school the most private kind? Why should they be subjected to exposing their children to a teaching they don't want if they choose to educate their children at home but maintain a schedule with the local government because of state law dictating that children, even those educated at home, have to come to a government building to take their tests?

I'm surprised at the contention over this, actually. Where else do we have flags flying all over every corner and every government building despite the majority opinion on the matter?

I think people just need to step back and back up out of the box. Take a look at things from a different angle.

When Bush got elected, and really, I know I have said this before but I want to reiterate, THIS DEVISTATED ME! I was actually afraid for our country. I still am to a point. When we went to war I was pissed. I still do not think Iraq had to happen when it did. I think it was for profit and nothing more. I attended 3 peace marches in DC and wrote a dozen letters to people I thought should hear my opinion. I got to the point that I hated patriotism and the flag represented something I did not want to be a part of. I was being called a communist, unpatriotic, bleeding heart (which honestly I don't take offense too, I take more offense that people think this is a bad thing), and I was told to go move to Iraq.

That triggered a change in me and I stepped back and thought about everything. I live in this county and I love this country. Why? Because everything I stand for, I am aloud to stand for in this country. I am a patriot. I prove that I am a patriot every time I attend a rally or march and every time I send a letter to my congressman stating my opinion.

I think these people need to remember what that flag is meant to stand for. Yes this country was founded on some messed up things. We obliterated a race, enslaved another, and to this day we continue to handle some things improperly. BUT, we are free to voice our opinion and try and change things we think are wrong.

I think people need to pick their battles more wisely.


Sorry for rambling on....

I can probably say that $.01 of my annual tax bill goes to fund this school.

Oregon recieves federal education money, which in turn has local school grants, so this little hippie town is recieving MY money.

How nice it must be to despise a symbol while living under the protection of it.
I will not tell them to get out of my country because they are hypocrites, they choose to live in a country that they do not want their children to grow in, but enjoy the very freedoms the flag represents.

I pretty much agree with you Darkblack - I felt similar things but I realized that sure they're taking my tax money and what not - buts it their right and its something all Americans have to cope with. Don't like it? Complain to your congressman and remember that if they don't want to do anything about it, then next time around dont vote for em.

Its too bad though, the U.S. being the greatest place to live in yet the flaws can still get to ya.

if i ever saw a flag, any flag, at my school i would burn it :)

What school do you go to?

Ill be right over with my flag...try and burn it.

i'd like to see both of you do what you said you would do

Some scary nationalists in this thread.

nationalist

adj : devotion to the interests or culture of a particular nation including promoting the interests of one country over those of others; "nationalist aspirations"; "minor nationalistic differences" [syn: nationalistic] n : one who loves and defends his or her country [syn: patriot]

Damn straight.

Need to rephrase this...

I don't think he was a saying nationalist in a bad way, I think it was the scary part he added to the front of it.

And to that I say, Damn Straight.

Homeschool your children if you don't like the flag in the school.

Nice try, thedrake.

Read the article again--these children are being homeschooled!

lol, go ahead :D its in norway, travel costs for anyone outside of europe will be about 1k euro :) so i would hate to make you travel invain ;)

Home school in a different state, or Canada. They also may not have to go there to turn in work to the state, I was homeschooled and never had to do such things. This sounds more like a public Sylvan learning center of sorts. Which wouldn't suprise me, teaching yourself algebra from some of the books they give you is insanely difficult.

"Then the flag represents the right to ask to not have to see a flag ?
Seems possible to me, no?"

It makes sense to me. No matter how disrespectful it might be, in America we have that option. If you take it away, and then try to call that freedom, you are no different than Iraq or any other state similar to it.

*hug*

They don't have to display the flag at their home. They can burn it at home if they like.

Well well well, funded by tax dollars you say? If the state wants to put up a flag, they have the right to do so. If the parents are frightened of their child seeing the nasty nasty American flag, they can cover their eyes while they walk them into the building.

Now, are you debating whether or not the flag should be able to be flown at tax-dollar-funded buildings, or whether or not Oregon is in the right by forcing home-schooled kids to take tests at a public facility? I'm all for home-schooling, and I think it's ridiculous to have to take your child to a public facility merely to take a test. It's nonsense. The parents should be contesting that, not whether or not the state has a right to display its nations flag at a facility which it pays for.

seretogis,

Your analysis is flawed--re-read the article. The parents aren't contesting the right of the state to fly a flag on a public building. They are voicing their (majority) opinion against the (minority) opinion of a kid who requested the flag be flown at the building.

You seem to agree with my underlying point--either allow the parents to have complete control over where their children have to be educated (presuming they have to go to the facility) or allow their wishes to be met in regards to what they are subjected to once they attend a state mandated facility.

Also, this story doesn't affect anyone except possibly two people (evidently Mikey feels justified in dictating what people see or don't see on their local, public buildings because he pays roughly one penny of the taxes it takes to run the building) posting in this thread.

I was mainly commenting on the contradiction between conservative claims to restrain national government intrusion on local affairs and the hatred almost all of the posts were spouting towards a local, majority opinion demanding control over one local, public building.

I'm arguing that a local majority should have the right to decide what they want to do in regards to state/community public buildings. I'm not arguing, and neither are these parents, that states don't have the right to fly flags at tax funded buildings.

I can only assume you either missed part of the story or you are deliberately building a straw-man--the state already has a law that schools must fly flags on their premises. This building isn't considered a school by both the state of Oregon or the local community (despite the opinions of internet posters' from various states and countries) or it would have a flag already present. This wasn't even an issue until kid got it in his head that flying a flag on this building would be really patriotic. I can't remember if the story stated whether the kid even utilized the facility.

Now a few people are pissed because the rest of their community is saying "Hell no, we don't want your fucking jingoism in our faces"

and all the rest of the jingoistic idiots come screaming to the rescue..."get the fuck out of our country"

problem is, they disregard the very basic fact that this is their country, too. They don't have to leave. They can sit in beautiful Ashland and burn the flag, refuse to fly it, and do whatever else their nappy heads want to do with it because, not only is it their country, it's their community. Not one of them, to my knowledge, has stepped outside of Ashland and asked any of you to stop flying your banner in your town--yet this couresy isn't extended to these people (who pay a significant portion of the tax bill--far greater than one cent).

If majority rules, it should be allowed to be spoken. This has made clear that the majority rule is only legitimate when it agrees with your opinion--what a farce.

Ahhhh..........Stooooop the Insanity....
Boo Hoo....
Chant with me,,,,,,USA, USA, USA....
Much better :)

Flying the American flag is jingoism now?!?:confused: :hmm: :rolleyes:

Look, I already explained that I had been living in that region for the past five years.

Flying the flag is not jingoism--and that's not what I said.

Placing the flag in every conceivable public location despite popular opinion and then telling people to get the fuck out of the country if they don't like it is jingoism.

Printing a flag that takes up both sides of the local paper so people can hang it in their storefront isn't jingoism and, although one might argue whether it's tacky, neither is placing wierd "patriotic" slogans on the other side along with your advertisement as an endorsement of the large flag on the front cover. However, if someone comes in to your store with a peace sign on his or her lapel, telling them to get the hell out of the store and maybe even a good dose of get the fuck out of the country does become jingoism.

When people burn flags that is likely to cause disruption and, even I agree, since it is likely just an attempt to anger others, is in bad taste and timing. However, flying banners (not flags, btw, according to the rules of flag flying) on your bumper, throwing things at cars that don't have such banners, and yelling things like where's your flag you fucking commie are all instances of jingoism.

Each of these things has happened and continues to happen in the Rogue Valley. This forms the political context that you are unaware of and, frankly, doesn't involve you. The kid's desire to raise a flag at the facility was an outgrowth of the growing political polarization in that basin. These people don't hate the US nor do they even hate its national standard. Of the ones I have spoken to, they have all stated their deeply held respect for our flag and the values it symbolizes. They abhor, however, the misuse of something so valuable. They feel that it has come to be misused and abused by corporate entities and utilized in such a way as to demonstrate to the world that our society condones their inappropriate behavior--when, in fact, the entire society does not condone such behavior.

Actually, the debate about whether corporate behavior and our administrations' behavior is inappropriate or undesirable for our long-term interests has not fully occurred because of this misuse of our national symbol to choke off public debate and political discourse. I can't imagine how you reconcile such displays of "patriotism" with the fundamental values our country was founded on--the free expression of political opinion.

Chanting obediance and subserviance to a nation's symbol is fine if that's your thing to do. Shouting down opposing opinions and ending profitable discourse on the policies and beliefs of all the citizens in this country is inappropriate jingoism.

Edit: since you asked whether flag waving, in and of itself, is jingoism, I suggest you look up the term because you don't seem to understand it's meaning. If you disagree with my assessment post the definition as you understand it and explain your perspective as to why such activities are not jingoism.

Jesus Christ.

I try to temper my liberal side, and while this nation is definitely not perfect, we're talking about a flag outside a school facility. The flag means something different to each and every person, and that's the beauty of it: it's the ideal to which we hold ourselves and our country, to which we aspire. It doesn't have to represent whatever you may or may not think is wrong with America today, or at any time in the past.

These anti-flag parents need to chill the F''' out.

Hey guy, don't get catty.

Your post specifically refered to fly the American flag (in this case over a government building) as jingoism:

I was just looking for clarification, not your high horse rant.

Now, allow me to tell you my perspective. On returning home from an overseas deployment in early 2002, the very first person who talked to me after I got off the plane was some woman berateing me for not having a flag on my car at the gas station. That, my friend, is jingoism.

Saying love it or leave it, that is jingoism.

But lets cut to the chase, and do away with all of the moral relativism: If you have a problem with a government building flying a government flag in a dignified manner, then the problem is with you. At the very least you are not smart enough to pick your fights, at the worst you are being a pain in the ass just for the sake of doing so. Hell, some people never grew out of the sixties, they have to protest something.

I am not condoning the acts of the equally idiotic "patriots" who don't know that you aren't supposed to wear the flag as clothing, nor print any manner of message across it. It is not to be used as advertising, period. If flown on a car, it should be affixed to the right fender (as on the presidential limo), but try telling them that. It's the same morons who wear the "love it or leave it" shirts, but don't take their ball cap off during the national anthem.

Both sides of the coin annoy to no end, but see them both for what they are: morons.

Response to edit:

jingoism

n 1: an appeal intended to arouse patriotic emotions [syn: flag waving] 2: fanatical patriotism [syn: chauvinism, superpatriotism, ultranationalism]


I fail to see how flying a flag above a government building qualifies as either of those definitions. No appeal is being made, and I would not describe flag display as fanatical...

From the article: "While Oregon law requires that both a U.S. flag and state flag fly at every "public school building," it was unclear to district officials whether or not the learning center – technically not a "school" – fell under the requirement. According to the report, officials decided the building, since it was supported by district funds, was subject to the regulation. "

It was unclear. Now they are clear, and so a flag should be there. The fact that it wasn't before doesn't mean that it wasn't subject to the regulation in the past.

It's ridiculous for responsible adults to not have control of their child's education. Forcing them to go to a public facility to take tests is unnecessary. I'm more in favor of giving the parents the choice of mailing/faxing in tests than taking down a US flag at a publicly funded facility.

If a community is going to rely on state/federal funding in any way for their facilities, they are subjecting themselves to the rules of the state/federal governments. It is dangerous to start suggesting that although the government gives money to organizations, it should have no say in how that money is spent or how it is represented by the organization.

Instead of giving people more power over government-funded facilities, I would rather that the people take back control of the education system and get off of the government dole.

My "high horse rant" ?:

"The Ashland School District decided it would erect the flag and flagpole this fall after 13-year-old Jesse Stanton asked that Old Glory fly outside the learning center, the Ashland paper said.

According to the report, the teen first contacted the facility's director, Debi Pew, about putting up the flag.

...

Stanton says he is "one of the only ones who speaks out on my views that support patriotism and pro-Americanism," said the report.

I didn't specificall refer to flying the American flag as jingoism--you incorrectly inferred it.

My "rant" was to give you the context so please quit insulting me if you want to learn something about the region at issue.

You may want to edit your initial post, then, because on re-reading it I found it could be construed no other way.

And how did I insult you?

Sigh...

Well, my two cents is this: the flag should be there (why was it not to begin with) and the people should be allowed to protest. I don't know what the state of the US law is regarding flag burning, but in Canada it is legal, although people who have done it have had their cars burned, houses vandalized, etc.

One thing I don't understand is the sentiment of being against "a citizen of the world." What is wrong with that? Take away borders and we are all humans, anyway.

The UN? Black helicopters? I think the UN would love some nice new black helicopters; it could replace all the shitty broken down Russian ones they have to use in Africa and Asia for peacekeeping and food distribution.

It's that flag and the constitution that give you the right of speech and the opportunity to talk trash & not be killed for it. So if you don't like the flag ---then you have the right to leave and go somewhere that is not governed by our constitution. Try giving your oppinion in that country.

The flag stands for freedom---------- If you take that flag away you no longer have the right to gripe about the flag you were complaining about int the first place.