Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community (https://thetfp.com/tfp/)
-   Tilted Politics (https://thetfp.com/tfp/tilted-politics/)
-   -   is this also false equivalence???? (https://thetfp.com/tfp/tilted-politics/164694-also-false-equivalence.html)

dksuddeth 02-09-2011 05:57 PM

is this also false equivalence????
 

just wondering, because some people on here were all about restricting violent rhetoric, but would they claim this is violent rhetoric?

Baraka_Guru 02-09-2011 06:14 PM

Which one was the progressive equivalent of Sarah Palin? Glenn Beck?

Or are you just comparing angry protesters with other angry protesters?

That crazy old guy in the middle was pretty funny though.

filtherton 02-09-2011 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth (Post 2871303)
YouTube - Progressive Protests Call For Federal Judge Hanging and Riots

just wondering, because some people on here were all about restricting violent rhetoric, but would they claim this is violent rhetoric?

[sike]Clearly, this video invalidates any and all calls for the toning down of rhetoric.[/sike]



I'm not even going to watch the video. I don't care. Those people don't speak for me. However, unlike many folks who seem to frequent these parts, I have no problem unequivocally saying that if these people were calling for violence or using overly violent imagery in their speech to make political points, then they should calm down and choose their words more carefully.

dksuddeth 02-09-2011 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru (Post 2871312)
Which one was the progressive equivalent of Sarah Palin? Glenn Beck?

Or are you just comparing angry protesters with other angry protesters?

so you're saying that unless someone is in the media spotlight, their speech cannot possibly rise to the same level of rhetoric as those who are simple civilians?

---------- Post added at 08:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:25 PM ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by filtherton (Post 2871313)
I'm not even going to watch the video. I don't care. Those people don't speak for me. However, unlike many folks who seem to frequent these parts, I have no problem unequivocally saying that if these people were calling for violence or using overly violent imagery in their speech to make political points, then they should calm down and choose their words more carefully.

this is what we call a copout. a stance typically taken by people who like to paint an entire group of people ideologically opposed to their beliefs as wholeheartedly dedicated to a specific purpose, but their own ideological beliefs cannot possibly be constrained to just one specific group of people, especially when that group of people makes them look hypocritical.

dippin 02-09-2011 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth (Post 2871315)
so you're saying that unless someone is in the media spotlight, their speech cannot possibly rise to the same level of rhetoric as those who are simple civilians?

No, but it cannot rise to the same level of influence.

If you divide the world into 2 neatly distinct "sides," you are bound to find any number of people on either side who say any number of stupid and ridiculous things.

It is still not equivalent to people in national leadership positions saying similar things.

filtherton 02-09-2011 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth (Post 2871315)
this is what we call a copout. a stance typically taken by people who like to paint an entire group of people ideologically opposed to their beliefs as wholeheartedly dedicated to a specific purpose, but their own ideological beliefs cannot possibly be constrained to just one specific group of people, especially when that group of people makes them look hypocritical.

???

Not sure what the hell you're talking about here. Which group of people have I painted? Who is making me look hypocritical. You're not making a lot of sense here to me.

Baraka_Guru 02-09-2011 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth (Post 2871315)
so you're saying that unless someone is in the media spotlight, their speech cannot possibly rise to the same level of rhetoric as those who are simple civilians?

I'm asking you to draw where the equivalence lies. You are asking if this is false equivalence. To what?

It's a a handful of people picked out of a crowd at a protest.

What are you trying to say here? There are angry things said at protests on either side of the spectrum. I get that.

Charlatan 02-09-2011 07:10 PM

I think you will find, with one notable exception, the people on this board who are calling for a toning down of the violent rhetoric are not beyond pointing out individuals in a so-called progressive crowd that cross the line.

People are people.

The main difference that people are pointing out is that this slipping of violence into the rhetoric on the conservative side of the scale is not just happening with folks on the street. It is being used by official representatives on the podiums. It is being used, increasingly, by the conservative media. There is no equivalency between people on the streets and a talking head on the television.

I am very happy to address *all* people engaged in the debate to tone down the rhetoric. But the fact remains that the biggest voice in the room, reaching and influencing the greatest number of people still sits on the conservative side of this particular equation. To state otherwise suggests you aren't paying attention.

Willravel 02-09-2011 07:35 PM

I expected better from you, DK.

roachboy 02-09-2011 07:39 PM

this source of this clip is just funny:

http://pushbacknow.net/2011/02/03/pr...ing-and-riots/

it's hard to think too much about what the op could possibly mean given the lunacy of this commentary and the absurd conclusions drawn from the clip.

for the record, i don't care about violent rhetoric per se. i don't find it to necessarily be a problem any more than any other rhetoric is necessarily a problem. situation, however, can make of many different rhetorics something deeply problematic....for example as much as i find nationalism to be a collective mental disorder, espoused by random people at some conservative rally no-one really cares. it's just what they say. but repeated on radio--say---over and over and over and tipped toward directing collective violence, justifying it and concealing it at the same time...that's a problem.

i think i'm saying the same thing that charlatan said above but with less elegance. i blame the lunatic conservo-blog post that i stumbled across by working my way backward from the youtube clip. still laughing. what a putz.

dc_dux 02-09-2011 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan (Post 2871328)
I think you will find, with one notable exception, the people on this board who are calling for a toning down of the violent rhetoric are not beyond pointing out individuals in a so-called progressive crowd that cross the line.

People are people.

The main difference that people are pointing out is that this slipping of violence into the rhetoric on the conservative side of the scale is not just happening with folks on the street. It is being used by official representatives on the podiums. It is being used, increasingly, by the conservative media. There is no equivalency between people on the streets and a talking head on the television.

I am very happy to address *all* people engaged in the debate to tone down the rhetoric. But the fact remains that the biggest voice in the room, reaching and influencing the greatest number of people still sits on the conservative side of this particular equation. To state otherwise suggests you aren't paying attention.

This sums it up for me as well.

Yes, it is a false equivalence to compare a handful of no-name angry or just hateful people at small, local events with talk radio/tv personalities and their millions of weekly viewers/listeners..

dksuddeth 02-09-2011 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willravel (Post 2871334)
I expected better from you, DK.

aw will, when have you ever known me to let off of one group more than the other? i'm an equal opportunity criticizer.

Willravel 02-10-2011 10:30 AM

This video was already posted and addressed in a thread about this topic. If you have something to say about it, I'm more than willing to respond to it, but instead you created a second thread and didn't respond to the points either I or DC_Dux or roachboy made in response to the video, instead just sort of presenting it as a prima facie case that there's equivalence.

We may disagree on a lot of things, but I know on most things you can self-reflect and are willing to engage in debate. It's part of why I respect you.

dksuddeth 02-10-2011 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willravel (Post 2871509)
This video was already posted and addressed in a thread about this topic. If you have something to say about it, I'm more than willing to respond to it, but instead you created a second thread and didn't respond to the points either I or DC_Dux or roachboy made in response to the video, instead just sort of presenting it as a prima facie case that there's equivalence.

this i did not know. I stopped paying attention to the other thread about halfway through it, easily seeing that it was not going to accomplish anything. I would not have posted it had I known it had been previously.

Jinn 02-10-2011 11:48 AM

Yes, it would be false equivalence to equate angry protesters to government figures speaking during campaigns or while seated in public office. But I don't think that's the false equivalence you're looking for.

As many have said before me, We all know that depravity and ignorance sits at the bottom, and those people attend all sorts of rallies for all sorts of causes, sometimes conserative, sometimes liberal.. sometimes pro-gun, sometimes anti-gun. The fact is we expect those we elect to represent us to rise above the ignorance of the common people, and it is a fact enshrined by the founding fathers, all of whom were educated lawyers. They knew the dreks of society deserved representation rather than full-share democracy. If we allowed every jackal with a loud voice equal share of the power we'd be in a far worse situation than we are now.

aceventura3 02-10-2011 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth (Post 2871303)
just wondering, because some people on here were all about restricting violent rhetoric, but would they claim this is violent rhetoric?

Your question is brilliantly simple, and I noticed no one gave a direct answer.

My answer is, no. I would not take the words of those protesters seriously. The words had no significance and were not thoughtful. On the other-hand when a person like Ahmadinejad says he wants to wipe Israel off of the face of the map or to destroy the US, I think that is violent rhetoric. The difference being in the use of exaggeration but with a real threat of violence.

On a side note, I doubt many here are even aware of the double-standards they hold.

filtherton 02-10-2011 02:30 PM

So Sarah Palin is the right's analog to the president of Iran? Nice.

Baraka_Guru 02-10-2011 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3 (Post 2871566)
Your question is brilliantly simple, and I noticed no one gave a direct answer.

It wasn't just simple, it was leading.

What value does the question have? The question itself is rhetoric.

However, I disagree about it being brilliant. It's actually rather tactless.

Charlatan 02-10-2011 04:37 PM

I thought my answer was as straightforward an answer as the loaded question deserved.

dksuddeth 02-10-2011 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru (Post 2871579)
It wasn't just simple, it was leading.

What value does the question have? The question itself is rhetoric.

However, I disagree about it being brilliant. It's actually rather tactless.

and sometimes the most brilliant statement has no tact at all. it's perfectly designed to make those it's directed at.....think. sadly, most don't reach that moment.

Baraka_Guru 02-10-2011 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth (Post 2871630)
and sometimes the most brilliant statement has no tact at all. it's perfectly designed to make those it's directed at.....think. sadly, most don't reach that moment.

Who was it directed at? People who don't know what violent rhetoric is?

I think your intended audience is small here.

aceventura3 02-11-2011 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by filtherton (Post 2871572)
So Sarah Palin is the right's analog to the president of Iran? Nice.

No.

When Palin talks about reloading she is talking about regrouping or a pause before continuing. When the President of Iran talks about destroying a country he is talking about actually destroying a country.

---------- Post added at 04:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:49 PM ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru (Post 2871579)
It wasn't just simple, it was leading.

His question was leading, but I did not agree with where it lead and I answered the question and explained why. What is the big deal? Leading questions are not difficult to handle.

Quote:

What value does the question have?
For me it was thought provoking. It made me think about the underlying issue in a way I had not done before. It helped me to better understand what is real violent rhetoric and what is not.

Quote:

The question itself is rhetoric.
This is a political forum, everyone here comes with preconceived notions of political ideas, the whole point is an exercise in the use of rhetoric for point and counter point exchange. I for one love it. I also love British Parliamentary style debate simply for its entertainment value, many don't - and it appears you don't either.

Quote:

However, I disagree about it being brilliant. It's actually rather tactless.
Is the above not rhetoric?

filtherton 02-11-2011 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3 (Post 2871849)
No.

When Palin talks about reloading she is talking about regrouping or a pause before continuing. When the President of Iran talks about destroying a country he is talking about actually destroying a country.


Then it's odd that you'd even bring him up in this context.

Baraka_Guru 02-11-2011 09:46 AM

ace, my point is that he didn't really set up this thread as an invitation to a debate or discussion. It was set up as an apparatus meant to tumble in such a way that was preplanned, like a trap. He was looking for an aha! moment and didn't get it because the setup was tactless and most members here are too sophisticated to be drawn into that kind of setup.

It's a question that wasn't meant to be answered logically. It's a leading question. It answers itself.

The problem remains: what's the point being made? It's not yet clear.

The question wasn't thought-provoking to me. It actually made me roll my eyes.

What are we supposed to do here? Answer the question truthfully, say "duh," and move on to the next thread?

aceventura3 02-11-2011 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by filtherton (Post 2871870)
Then it's odd that you'd even bring him up in this context.

You are correct, it is odd.:orly: Very, very, odd.:orly::orly:

---------- Post added at 09:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:34 PM ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru (Post 2871874)
ace, my point is that he didn't really set up this thread as an invitation to a debate or discussion. It was set up as an apparatus meant to tumble in such a way that was preplanned, like a trap.

As Sherlock Holmes would say, "the game is afoot."

Gee, relax and have a little fun from time to time.

Quote:

It's a question that wasn't meant to be answered logically. It's a leading question. It answers itself.
And that is the beauty in the question, it appears that it answers itself...but it doesn't.

Quote:

The problem remains: what's the point being made? It's not yet clear.
It was a question. Perhaps if you answered the question you would see the point, you would see where it all leads.

Quote:

The question wasn't thought-provoking to me. It actually made me roll my eyes.
Yet, you have actually spent time thinking about it...mmmmm....:orly:

Quote:

What are we supposed to do here? Answer the question truthfully, say "duh," and move on to the next thread?
Yes.

Cimarron29414 02-11-2011 01:45 PM

Is there some rule in February that if a thread gets Palin'd, it has to get locked?

roachboy 02-11-2011 02:00 PM

i thought you weren't going to use that name, cimmaron. sheesh. it lasted what...10 days?

this shouldn't be like quitting smoking.

aceventura3 02-11-2011 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cimarron29414 (Post 2871961)
Is there some rule in February that if a thread gets Palin'd, it has to get locked?

Have I told you lately how much I like Sarah Palin?

http://www.sarahpalin4president.org/sarahpalin07.jpg

Baraka_Guru 02-11-2011 02:10 PM

ace, I didn't answer the question because it's unanswerable without further context. And for the record, I haven't thought a lot about it in itself; more about the set up and what's wrong with it.

Okay so let's go all Sherlocky or maybe Socratic with this.

Ah, shit. Let's just answer the questions:

"Is this also false equivalence?"

I don't know. Equivalent to what?

"Some people on here were all about restricting violent rhetoric, but would they claim this is violent rhetoric?"

Yes they would, but I'm not certain they will.



Satisfied? Didn't think so. Neither am I, which is why I have responded the way I did.

Seriously, am I missing something? Please help me out.

aceventura3 02-13-2011 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru (Post 2871974)

Seriously, am I missing something? Please help me out.

I can see why you can not answer the question, however, I was able and willing to answer it. I can not help you.

Baraka_Guru 02-13-2011 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3 (Post 2872545)
I can see why you can not answer the question, however, I was able and willing to answer it. I can not help you.

What are you talking about? I answered it.

bagatelle 02-13-2011 11:40 PM

What's this thread about? :oogle:

This is in Finnish and people are protesting against the H1N1 vaccinations. They are bringing up cases, when people died for taking the vaccinations, which used adjuvants and weren't thoroughly tested in their opinion. They list miscarriages and children dying in wombs because of these vaccinations.

Sounds kind of lame compared to the video in the first post, doesn't it? I know you don't understand the language, but it's more like pathetic whining than an angry rant.


Cimarron29414 02-14-2011 06:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy (Post 2871969)
i thought you weren't going to use that name, cimmaron. sheesh. it lasted what...10 days?

this shouldn't be like quitting smoking.

No, no, no - not me! :) I didn't care one way or the other. My point in the other thread was just that, "If talking about Palin means having this sort of silly banter, I'm fine with y'all not talking about her."

As for this thread, I just noticed her name start flying around and thought it seems fitting to change Godwin'd to Palin'd, no?

aceventura3 02-14-2011 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru (Post 2872546)
What are you talking about? I answered it.

I should have been specific, this is the question in the original post I was referring to:

Quote:

just wondering, because some people on here were all about restricting violent rhetoric, but would they claim this is violent rhetoric?
And it appears you answered it.

Willravel 02-14-2011 08:33 AM

Ace, would you mind editing in a smaller image above? I'd appreciate it.

Baraka_Guru 02-14-2011 08:35 AM

ace, both questions are problematic. The OP wasn't set up with enough clarity, and therefore there is missing context.

The question you are referring to isn't easily answered with clarity because it makes assumptions.

It's also a question asking about probability. It's also a question regarding nonspecific parties regarding a type of rhetoric that may or may not be similar to the OP video coming from people who may or may not be similar to the people in the OP video.

I don't particularly like answering yes or no questions when its based on assumptions. This is why I responded as I have thus far.

I prefer clarity. I like to know what we're talking about before we talk about it. I know this isn't too much to ask. And if we can't get to the point where we know what we're talking about, then I can only assume we are playing games.

dksuddeth 02-14-2011 09:32 AM

interesting how some people are really quick to jump on the broadest of statements from a few individuals in order to press some perceived advantage, yet expect and demand such exacting details and information about an incident in order to avoid looking in a mirror for their actions.

Baraka_Guru 02-14-2011 09:37 AM

dk, why are you being so cryptic?

dksuddeth 02-14-2011 09:42 AM

i figure I can be cryptic, just like others can be obtuse.

Cimarron29414 02-14-2011 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willravel (Post 2872753)
Ace, would you mind editing in a smaller image above? I'd appreciate it.

Yeah, yeah. You're in love with her. Admit it.


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 09:38 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
© 2002-2012 Tilted Forum Project


1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190 191 192 193 194 195 196 197 198 199 200 201 202 203 204 205 206 207 208 209 210 211 212 213 214 215 216 217 218 219 220 221 222 223 224 225 226 227 228 229 230 231 232 233 234 235 236 237 238 239 240 241 242 243 244 245 246 247 248 249 250 251 252 253 254 255 256 257 258 259 260 261 262 263 264 265 266 267 268 269 270 271 272 273 274 275 276 277 278 279 280 281 282 283 284 285 286 287 288 289 290 291 292 293 294 295 296 297 298 299 300 301 302 303 304 305 306 307 308 309 310 311 312 313 314 315 316 317 318 319 320 321 322 323 324 325 326 327 328 329 330 331 332 333 334 335 336 337 338 339 340 341 342 343 344 345 346 347 348 349 350 351 352 353 354 355 356 357 358 359 360