Confirmed: At least 1 in 5 Americans is an absolute idiot. - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

FuglyStick · 08-20-2010, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Pew Poll Finds 1 in 5 Americans Wrongly Believe Barack Obama Is a Muslim
White House Says the President Is a Christian Who Prays Every Day

By JAKE TAPPER, BRADLEY BLACKBURN and DEVIN DWYER
Aug. 19, 2010—

Nearly one in five Americans now incorrectly believes that President Obama is a Muslim, evidence of growing confusion among the population about the president's faith.

The new poll from the nonpartisan Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life found that 18 percent of those surveyed wrongly identified Obama as Muslim, up from 11 percent in March 2009. At the same time, the number of Americans who knew correctly that Obama is Christian has declined from 48 percent in March 2009 to 34 percent today. But 43 percent of Americans now say they don't know what Obama's religion is at all.

Watch "World News with Diane Sawyer" for more on this story tonight on ABC.

The Pew poll was conducted between July 21 and Aug. 5 before Obama weighed in on the controversial plan to build an Islamic center near the site of the 9/11 attack on the World Trade Center.

The misinformation continues to exist despite the president's own declarations of his Christian faith and the statements of his spiritual advisors.

"The president is, obviously, he's Christian. He prays every day," White House spokesman Bill Burton said today aboard Air Force One.

"He communicates with his religious advisor every single day," Burton said. "There's a group of pastors that he takes counsel from on a regular basis. His faith is very important to him, but it's not something that's a topic of conversation every single day."

Burton said the president has talked "extensively" about his faith in the past and "you can bet he'll talk about his faith again." But "making sure Americans know what a devout Christian he is" is not the president's top priority.

The poll indicates that groups who have shown the most willingness to believe the wrong notion that the president is a Muslim include conservative Republicans, 34 percent of whom believe Obama is Muslim. Eighteen percent of independents say the president is a Muslim, up from 10 percent in March 2009.

"I think the reality is that false beliefs spread like gossip more than actual information," said Andrew Perrin, an associate professor of sociology at the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill.

Perrin's research has shown that a false perception can spread quickly if people's friends and neighbors also have heard or believe a similar idea.

"False beliefs propagate when people think others believe them and when they have a supportive source that wants them to hold it," Perrin said.

Perrin has found that even direct denials of the false information do not always solve the problem.

"In my own research, when [people] get reliable information that discounts these beliefs, they tend to cling to those beliefs more," Perrin said.

Misperception Also Exists Among President's Political Allies

But even among the president's allies, the numbers are shifting. In March 2009, 55 percent of Democrats said the president is a Christian. That number is now 46 percent.

African-Americans, who voted for Obama overwhelmingly, have shown a similar shift. In March 2009, 36 percent of African-Americans said they didn't know the president's religion. That number is now 46 percent. Self-described liberal Democrats who don't know what religion the president is shifted from 23 percent to 31 percent.

President Favors a Private Faith

Obama has favored a more private faith since he took office in January 2009, attending formal church services just a handful of times, including Easter of this year.

Like his predecessor George W. Bush, President Obama has said he prefers worshiping at the chapel at Camp David. But Obama rarely goes to the presidential retreat, instead spending Sundays at the White House. Weekend activities often include basketball or golf.

Still, the president has said his Christian faith is part of his daily life. Last year, Obama told ABC's Terry Moran on "Nightline" that he relied on his BlackBerry as one tool to keep the faith.

"My faith and neighborhood initiatives director, Joshua DuBois, he has a devotional that he sends to me on my BlackBerry every day," Obama said. "That's how I start my morning. You know, he's got a passage, scripture, in some cases, quotes from other faiths to reflect on."

Obama: Faith Has Deepened While in Office

The president said during the same interview that his faith had deepened in his time in office.

"[Before taking office], I had a habit of praying every night before I go to bed. I pray all the time now," Obama laughed. "Because I've got a lot of stuff on my plate, and I need guidance all the time."

While the president and his family initially planned to join a church in Washington, they put the search on hold after finding the trappings of the modern presidency too cumbersome for congregation life. Before the president attends a service, the building must be swept for threats and every churchgoer screened for weapons.

An Obama family visit to the 19th Street Baptist Church, a historic African-American congregation in Washington, turned into a circus atmosphere that dismayed the family, according to aides, particularly after learning that longtime church members were turned away from the service.

Pew Poll: 18 Percent of Americans Think President Obama Is a Muslim - ABC News

Is anyone really surprised? These morons are your peers in your workplace, your boss, your neighbors, your doctor, mailman, mechanic, bartender and minister. They are also voters, which means one fifth of votes cast in this country are cast by lunatics. If that doesn't get you off your ass and into the polls, to try and stem the idiocy, I don't know what will.

edit:dammit, wrong forum. Mods, move this if you would be so kind.

Wes Mantooth · 08-20-2010, 11:45 AM

I don't think anybody is surprised at what people think at this point, it is pretty sad though and somewhat horrifying that these people are allowed to vote. In a way its almost fascinating how easy it was to convince so many people of a lie, but then again when so many people are that consumed by hatred for the man they will eat up anything that paints him in a negative light.

...one also has to wonder why being a Muslim would be a bad thing in the first place...

...goddamn this is depressing.

Cimarron29414 · 08-20-2010, 12:13 PM

Fugly,

I believe the Muslim faith states that any child born to a Muslim father is Muslim. So, generally, Muslims in America probably do consider him Muslim. Could that account for some small percentage of the numbers?

Here's what I don't understand. This all plays out like being a Muslim is a bad thing and people incorrectly believing he is a Muslim is a negative. Sure, they are incorrect, but if he were a Muslim, I would think no differently of him.

Baraka_Guru · 08-20-2010, 12:20 PM

Obama's mother was born into a Christian family, but identified as a secularist. His father was born into a Muslim and Christian family and identified as an atheist before meeting his mother.

Oh, but his middle name is Hussein!

Yeah, the oddest thing about the Muslim hangup is that I get the impression that most view it as a strike against him. Could you imagine an open Muslim as the president?

kutulu · 08-20-2010, 12:48 PM

it's times like this when I feel like giving up on us as a country. Seriously, what are we fighting for when we can't even get one fifth of thee population to accept the fact that Obama isn't a Muslim? I'm not even sure if the country deserves to be saved

Wes Mantooth · 08-20-2010, 01:00 PM

I hear ya kutulu, don't get me wrong I really do love living in the US but there are times I just feel like I need to say fuck it and find some other country to live in, these battles just aren't worth it. I do feel like sometimes we are dangerously close to building a christian theocracy or something worse...how many terrorist attacks or bad presidents are we away from just abandoning everything we stand for based on nothing more then ignorance and fear. Like BG wrote above, imagine what would happen if we elected a real Muslim president...the rest of the story writes itself.

Stories like this really are depressing, we're better then this.

dlish · 08-20-2010, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cimarron29414

Fugly,

I believe the Muslim faith states that any child born to a Muslim father is Muslim. So, generally, Muslims in America probably do consider him Muslim. Could that account for some small percentage of the numbers?

actually, that's where you're wrong.

Islamic belief is that all children are born 'muslim'. That is, children are born with the innate nature of being born under the 'oneness of god' and that children then follow the religion of their parents.

in saying that, i dont know if it would be a bad thing if a progressive muslim was president. But it really doesnt bother me whether obama is muslim or not. it wouldnt make me vote for him if he was.

what i am afraid of is people voting for him or against him for purely that reason and not for his policies... a bit like the phenomenon of the black community voting for obama because he was black.

loquitur · 08-20-2010, 01:38 PM

I think if the headline writers and sensationalism seekers didn't constantly keep raising this as an issue, it likely wouldn't even occur to as much as 20% of the population that this is even an issue. People know about it because it keeps getting hurled at them. Some are gullible, some are hardcore idiots, but I bet the hardcore is pretty small.

---------- Post added at 09:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:37 PM ----------

And besides, I don't think Obama is much of a Christian, either. Just from observation, he strikes me as more of an agnostic. He does the Christian thing pretty well, though, because the community where he made his mark is a religious one and he needed to fit in.

Willravel · 08-20-2010, 01:42 PM

What the hell is wrong with being a Muslim? They share about 95% of their mythology with Christianity and about 90% with Judaism. Most Muslims are perfectly nice people that happen to share a religious belief. There are nice people in every religion, generally overwhelmingly, and there are some assholes. If President Obama was an asshole, like, say, Bush, Bush, or Reagan (and probably a little Clinton), that would be something I'd like to know. Otherwise, why does it matter?

FuglyStick · 08-20-2010, 02:05 PM

There's not a thing wrong with being Muslim. But in the eyes of the 1 in 5 mentioned in the poll, "Muslim" is synonymous with "terrorist."

Tully Mars · 08-20-2010, 03:03 PM

That's the part that bothers me- Muslim=terrorist thinking. I think if you polled the average Fox News viewer whether or not Obama was trying to help the terrorist destroy America you'd get well over 80% saying he is and should be stopped.

Willravel · 08-20-2010, 03:40 PM

I read recently that, from 1980 to 2005, only 6% of terrorists were Muslim. Just 6%. That means 94% of terrorists are not Muslim, which considering 1.6-1.8 billion of the world's population out of 7 billion is Muslim, means Muslims are disproportionately less likely to be terrorists.

FuglyStick · 08-20-2010, 03:47 PM

Now Will, if you continue bringing logic to the table when discussing America's irrational fear of foreigners and non-Christian religions, we're going to have to find some other group to malign.

Like Scots.

Tully Mars · 08-20-2010, 04:24 PM

Or the Canadians... never trusted them, never.

Willravel · 08-20-2010, 04:33 PM

Quote:

20% OF AMERICANS THINK OBAMA IS A TALKING CAR

ONE in five Americans believe that President Barack Obama is a car that can talk, according to a new survey.

It is the latest blow to the beleaguered commander-in-chief who has struggled to connect with mainstream America and convince them that he is a person not a vehicle.

The survey found that more than half believe the president was manufactured in either Japan or South Korea and arrived in Atlantic City on board a large freight vessel in 1993.

Forty-eight percent think he is a mid-price sports coupé with high levels of equipment but poor reliability. And among those who believe he is a talking car, more than 70% claim he uses a refined mid-Atlantic accent, while 23% insist it is a fuzzy, robotic monotone.

Martin Bishop, deputy chairman of the Republican National Committee, said: "I would just like him to have the courage to produce his birth certificate so that we can see once and for all what kind of car he is."

Stephen Malley, a sales executive from Atlanta, said: "I read that he just sits around all day drinking Castrol GTX and smoking reefer. Our president is a poorly maintained foreign death trap that talks hippy dippy shit about moonbeams."

And Tom Logan, an electrician from Pittsburgh, added: "He sleeps in a garage and his full name is Barack Mitsubishi Obama."

A White House spokesman said last night: "The president has been in cars. Many of his relatives and even some of his friends can drive cars. The president actually quite likes cars.

"But he's not a car."

Helen Archer, an estate agent from Bloomington, Indiana, said: "I wouldn't necessarily choose a car as president, but if he is a car then I'd certainly prefer him to be one that can talk.

"The last thing this country needs right now is one of those silent, menacing cars like Christine or Herbie."

Source

Yes we can, Michael.

FuglyStick · 08-20-2010, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willravel

Source

Yes we can, Michael.

LOL

And, simultaneously,

We are surrounded by idiots.

ring · 08-20-2010, 05:07 PM

In my small mid-western town, I'm surrounded by people who shun the naturally...tan.

The fear that begets loathing is palpable. It shimmers in the heat fueled for profit.

It stinks.

Seaver · 08-20-2010, 05:31 PM

Quote:

To be included on the list, an offender had to have been wanted, arrested, convicted or killed in connection with terrorism-related activities since 9/11 -- and have lived in the United States, regardless of immigration status, for more than a year prior to arrest.

Hey Wil... 0% of Muslims who have a kid in High School, won the lottery, got struck by lightning, and have played professional football have been terrorists. Set the bar high enough you can skew the facts however you want.

As for the 20% believing Obama is a Muslim... 25% thought Bush was involved in 9/11. We still have an obligation to put up with the fact crazies will be crazy.

Fotzlid · 08-20-2010, 05:58 PM

...or that polls can be worded to to say whatever the pollster wants....

Willravel · 08-20-2010, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seaver

Hey [Will]... 0% of Muslims who have a kid in High School, won the lottery, got struck by lightning, and have played professional football have been terrorists. Set the bar high enough you can skew the facts however you want.

Please describe in what way I've skewed facts. I'm always open to constructive criticism.

Edit: Ring's right, I misread the second part. Mea culpa.

ring · 08-20-2010, 06:21 PM

Will, that is the most anemic strawman I have seen you concoct.

You know better.

FuglyStick · 08-20-2010, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fotzlid

...or that polls can be worded to to say whatever the pollster wants....

I imagine it went something like this--

"Do you believe President Obama is a Muslim?"

Hard to take liberties with that.

boink · 08-20-2010, 11:27 PM

I just saw a 'where's the birth certificate' bumper sticker so I'm not surprised at all...scared, but not surprised.

Fotzlid · 08-21-2010, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FuglyStick

I imagine it went something like this--

"Do you believe President Obama is a Muslim?"

Hard to take liberties with that.

hmmmmm...example

Quote:

Eighteen percent of independents say the president is a Muslim, up from 10 percent in March 2009.

How many independents did they poll the first time? the second time?

Polls can be skewed any way the pollster wants.

FuglyStick · 08-21-2010, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fotzlid

hmmmmm...example

How many independents did they poll the first time? the second time?

Polls can be skewed any way the pollster wants.

I don't understand the discrepancy here. 18% of those polled believe the president is a Muslim. Is that or is that not the result of the poll?

If you want to take issue with the pool of poll participants, that's fine; there is a margin of error in every poll. But the results speak for themselves, in the context of the poll.

And frankly, what's your point? That these poll results are skewed? Anyone who has paid any attention to the media in the last few months should not find these results to be unfathomable.

Jetée · 08-21-2010, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FuglyStick

I don't understand the discrepancy here. 18% of those polled believe the president is a Muslim. Is that or is that not the result of the poll?

If you want to take issue with the pool of poll participants, that's fine; there is a margin of error in every poll. But the results speak for themselves, in the context of the poll.

And frankly, what's your point? That these poll results are skewed? Anyone who has paid any attention to the media in the last few months should not find these results to be unfathomable.

Small sample size is not to be taken as a verified experimental statistic for what the whole of Americans believe.

Fact: 1 in 8 Americans are not actually American citizens. It's up to you whether you believe this or not. I just made it up. But is it so farfetched?
It's a fact, nonetheless: totally unsubstantiated, yet not totally disproven. It's a skewed fact.

Plus, you're title is wrong: where in the article does it state that 60+ million Americans (1 in 5) believe that Obama, in is fact, a Muslim?
Are they referring to his ethnicity, or his religion? And I believe it is just a widespread inference you are touting that Muslim ~ terrorist, as that was no where stated explicitly in the poll's / article / ABCNews' findings.

Last bit: who cares? Polls suck. Polls troll.

Seaver · 08-21-2010, 02:10 PM

Big Link: In short there were MUCH worse numbers on batshit crazy people on the Left not too long ago.

September 11 attacks opinion polls - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Quote:

The polls that have received the most widespread media attention are those conducted by Zogby International. The Zogby polls have been sponsored by organizations within the 9/11 Truth Movement including 911truth.org.
The first one was conducted in August 2004, on the eve of a Republican National Convention, on 808 randomly-selected residents of New York State. It found that 49 percent of New York City residents and 41 percent of New York state citizens believe individuals within the US government "knew in advance that attacks were planned on or around September 11, 2001, and that they consciously failed to act".[4] The margin of error for this poll was 3.5 percent.
The second major Zogby poll on 9/11 was conducted in May 2006. It was a telephone interview of 1,200 randomly-selected adults from across the United States, consisting of 81 questions, with a 2.9 percent margin of error.[5] Some of the questions asked include the following:
"Some people believe that the US government and its 9/11 Commission concealed or refused to investigate critical evidence that contradicts their official explanation of the September 11th attacks, saying there has been a cover-up. Others say that the 9/11 Commission was a bi-partisan group of honest and well-respected people and that there is no reason they would want to cover-up anything. Who are you more likely to agree with?"
Responses: 48% No Cover-up / 42% Cover-up / 10% Not sure
"World Trade Center Building 7 is the 47-story skyscraper that was not hit by any planes during the September 11th attacks, but still totally collapsed later the same day. This collapse was not investigated by the 9/11 Commission. Are you aware of this skyscraper's collapse, and if so do you believe that the Commission should have also investigated it? Or do you believe that the Commission was right to only investigate the collapse of the buildings which were directly hit by airplanes?"
Responses: 43% Not Aware / 38% Aware - should have investigated it / 14% Aware - right not to investigate it / 5% Not Sure
"Some people say that so many unanswered questions about 9/11 remain that Congress or an International Tribunal should re-investigate the attacks, including whether any US government officials consciously allowed or helped facilitate their success. Other people say the 9/11 attacks were thoroughly investigated and that any speculation about US government involvement is nonsense. Who are you more likely to agree with?"
Responses: 47% Attacks were thoroughly investigated / 45% Reinvestigate the attacks / 8% Not Sure
The third major Zogby poll regarding 9/11 was conducted in August 2007. It was a telephone interview with a target of 1,000 interviews with randomly-selected adults from across the United States, consisting of 71 questions, with a 3.1 percent margin of error.[6]
The results of the 2007 August poll indicate that 51% of Americans want Congress to probe Bush/Cheney regarding the 9/11 attacks and over 30% of those polled seek immediate impeachment. While only 32% seek immediate Bush and/or Cheney impeachment based on their personal knowledge, many citizens appear eager for clear exposure of the facts.
In addition, the poll also found that two-thirds (67%) of Americans say the 9/11 Commission should have investigated the collapse of World Trade Center Building 7. Only 4.8 percent of the respondents agreed that members of the United States government "actively planned or assisted some aspects of the attack."
[edit]Newsweek Magazine polls
The Newsweek Magazine poll "What America Knows", conducted Princeton Survey Research Associates International, regularly asks American citizens a wide range of questions relating to world events past and present and a number of more trivial questions of general knowledge.[7] On five occasions the following question has been asked:
"Do you think Saddam Hussein’s regime in Iraq was directly involved in planning, financing, or carrying out the terrorist attacks of September 11th, 2001?"
September 2003 responses: 47% Yes, 37% No, 16% not sure.
January 2004 responses: 49% Yes, 39% No, 12% not sure.
September 2004 responses: 42% Yes, 44% No, 14% not sure.
October 2004 responses: 36% Yes, 51% No, 13% not sure.
June 2007 responses: 41% Yes, 50% No, 9% not sure.
[edit]New York Times / CBS News polls
The first 9/11 poll carried out by the New York Times and CBS News was conducted in May 2002. The same 9/11 related question was asked again in April 2004 and October 2006. The 2002 and 2006 polls were apparently published for the first time not by CBS or the NYTimes, but by polling researcher AngusReid.com The 2004 NY/Times CBS poll is available at NYTimes.com (Question 77).
The 2004 poll was conducted by telephone with 1024 adults nationwide in the US, with a 3% margin of error.[8] The 2006 poll was conducted by telephone on 983 randomly-selected citizens of the United States, with a 4% margin of error.[9] One of the questions was the following:
"When it comes to what they knew prior to September 11th, 2001, about possible terrorist attacks against the United States, do you think members of the Bush Administration are telling the truth, are mostly telling the truth but hiding something, or are they mostly lying?"
May 2002 responses: 21% said "telling the truth", 65% said they are "mostly telling the truth but hiding something", 8% said they are "mostly lying", 6% not sure.
3/30-4/1/04 CBS 24% said "telling the truth", 58% said they are "mostly telling the truth but hiding something", 14% said they are "mostly lying", 4% not sure.
4/8/04 CBS 21% said "telling the truth", 66% said they are "mostly telling the truth but hiding something", 10% said they are "mostly lying", 4% not sure.
4/23-27/04 24% said "telling the truth", 56% said they are "mostly telling the truth but hiding something", 16% said they are "mostly lying", 4% not sure.
Oct 2006 responses: 16% said "telling the truth", 53% said they are "mostly telling the truth but hiding something", 28% said they are "mostly lying", 3% not sure.
New York Times / CBS News have conducted a number of polls on the Iraq War that have included the question:
"Was Saddam personally involved in 9/11?"[10]
April 2003 responses: 53% said Yes, 38% said No.
October 2005 responses: 33% said Yes, 55% said No.
September 2006 responses: 31% said Yes, 57% said No.
September 2007 responses: 33% said Yes, 58% said No.
[edit]Scripps Howard polls
A poll from July 2006, sponsored by Scripps Howard and conducted by Ohio University, surveyed 1,010 randomly-selected citizens of the United States, with a margin of error of 4 percent.[11] It made some statements relating to some of the 9/11 conspiracy theories and asked respondents to say whether they thought that the statements were likely to be true.
"Federal officials either participated in the attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon or took no action to stop them".
59% "not likely"
20% "somewhat likely"
16% "very likely"[12]
"The collapse of the twin towers in New York was aided by explosives secretly planted in the two buildings".
77% "unlikely"
10% "somewhat likely"
6% "very likely"[13]
"The Pentagon was struck by a military cruise missile in 2001 rather than by an airliner captured by terrorists".
80% "not likely"
6% "somewhat likely"
6% "very likely"[14]
In November 2007 Scripps Howard surveyed 811 Americans about their beliefs in several conspiracy theories and asked this question[15]
How about that some people in the federal government had specific warnings of the 9/11 attacks in New York and Washington, but chose to ignore those warnings. Is this very likely, somewhat likely or unlikely?
32% "Very Likely"
30% "Somewhat Likely"
30% "Unlikely"
8% "Don't Know/Other"

FuglyStick · 08-21-2010, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jetée

Small sample size is not to be taken as a verified experimental statistic for what the whole of Americans believe.

Fact: 1 in 8 Americans are not actually American citizens. It's up to you whether you believe this or not. I just made it up. But is it so farfetched?
It's a fact, nonetheless: totally unsubstantiated, yet not totally disproven. It's a skewed fact.

Plus, you're title is wrong: where in the article does it state that 60+ million Americans (1 in 5) believe that Obama, in is fact, a Muslim?
Are they referring to his ethnicity, or his religion? And I believe it is just a widespread inference you are touting that Muslim ~ terrorist, as that was no where stated explicitly in the poll's / article / ABCNews' findings.

Last bit: who cares? Polls suck. Polls troll.

If every American was asked, it wouldn't be a poll anymore, it would be a census. That's why they are "polls".

And polls are not an accurate gauge of larger public opinion? Since when? As I pointed out, you can take issue with the pool of poll participants, as to whether they are an accurate representation of the demographic, but the results are the results. Small group studies as they apply to the greater whole have been used as a basis for scientific research forever. Are you telling me they aren't a reflection of the whole? Because you've just turned the scientific method on its head, if that's the case.

And Seaver: The has nothing, nada, zero, zilch, to do with the topic at hand. But thanks for the legwork on a discussion we're not having.

dlish · 08-21-2010, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jetée

Are they referring to his ethnicity, or his religion?

they're referring to his religion.

islam is not judaism where religion and ethnicity is sometimes taken as being synonymous with each other.

Jetée · 08-21-2010, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dlish

they're referring to his religion.

islam is not judaism where religion and ethnicity is sometimes taken as being synonymous with each other.

Yes, I'm aware of this, but that particular question of mine was more of an existentially-rhetorical one, as I'm not sure if many other Americans can appropriately distinguish the two, or even care to... too much stock is placed on birthrites and birth nationality, as well as the ethnic ties that bind, that it sometimes obscures and prematurely labels an individual to the masses before he/she gives off one word of introductions (this is in the world of politics, mind you, where I've witnessed this moreso than anywhere else).

FuglyStick · 08-21-2010, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jetée

Yes, I'm aware of this, but that particular question of mine was more of an existentially-rhetorical one, as I'm not sure if many other Americans can appropriately distinguish the two, or even care to... too much stock is placed on birthrites and birth nationality, as well as the ethnic ties that bind, that it sometimes obscures and prematurely labels an individual to the masses before he/she gives off one word of introductions (this is in the world of politics, mind you, where I've witnessed this moreso than anywhere else).

Don't assume people are stupid. It makes you look bad. 4 out of 5 people can keep up with you, big guy.

Jetée · 08-21-2010, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FuglyStick

I don't understand the discrepancy here. 18% of those polled believe the president is a Muslim. Is that or is that not the result of the poll?

Based on this line of questioning, I'll say that is not the result of said poll.

What poll? Unless we are out there conducting these polls ourselves, we are meant to question its method and scrutinize them in every way possible to seek out the bias. If there is none, and it can be proven as such, only then should it be regarded as more likely that this is not a hoax.

Furthermore, I don't know why you're bringing scientifics into this matter, even if it is as lowly and broad a mention as the practice of utilizing the scientific method, because as it has been shown, there is no science to gathering opinions marked as either choice a) b) or c) (and on occasion, d)..).

Stating that 18% of (insert group here) people think that Obama is Muslim proves what? The USA is dumber than (insert rival nation here)? Do you happen to know the first sample size of the poll's pool of participants, and then the next's? It could be as low as 5 people (an extreme example) for all we know, which is basically next to nothing.

I still don't see the issue here. There's a reason we have a separation among the faculties of Church and State in government proceedings, and the moment we were exposed to the words of Bush Jr. telling the media his reasoning for invading Iraq was because God's word came to him in a dream, is when some righteous action should have been taken to prevent this unnecessary decade-long war.

- - -
Post-EDIT:
I'm not trying to provoke any sort of pissing match here, I'm just asking questions as to why you believe this poll may be relevant, and to what aim it serves to know the results. That's all.

I'm not sure why it is, but I intensly like generalizations, despite the "fact" that I use them as a crutch as much as the next guy (news outlet).

FuglyStick · 08-21-2010, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jetée

Based on this line of questioning, I'll say that is not the result of said poll.

Quote:

The new poll from the nonpartisan Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life found that 18 percent of those surveyed wrongly identified Obama as Muslim

WTF?

Jetée · 08-21-2010, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FuglyStick

WTF?

citations please.

(simply: who were those 'people' polled, and from where did they stem?)

FuglyStick · 08-21-2010, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jetée

citations please.

(simply: who were those 'people' polled, and from where did they stem?)

Jesus fucking Christ.

You win. Polls are shit. They have no bearing on actual public opinion, and are voodoo statistics cooked up by witch doctors and shamans. Thanks for setting us all straight.

Seaver · 08-21-2010, 05:20 PM

Quote:

And Seaver: The has nothing, nada, zero, zilch, to do with the topic at hand. But thanks for the legwork on a discussion we're not having.

Read more: http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/tilted-...#ixzz0xIEPYLjI

Actually, it has everything to do with the discussion. This entire discussion revolves around a poll that shows a percentage of the public believe something about a political figure which has no basis in fact yet the belief remains.

In your attempts to proclaim how terrible this is, I was putting forth facts from VERY recent history which throws a wrench into your thesis. Next round take the time to understand a post before firing off simply because it opposes your line of thinking.

FuglyStick · 08-21-2010, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seaver

Actually, it has everything to do with the discussion. This entire discussion revolves around a poll that shows a percentage of the public believe something about a political figure which has no basis in fact yet the belief remains.

In your attempts to proclaim how terrible this is, I was putting forth facts from VERY recent history which throws a wrench into your thesis. Next round take the time to understand a post before firing off simply because it opposes your line of thinking.

1st--tell me what you think my "thesis" is (wrong, no doubt)
2nd--tell me how you've "thrown a wrench" in my (your) thesis

filtherton · 08-21-2010, 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jetée

citations please.

(simply: who were those 'people' polled, and from where did they stem?)

I'm pretty sure that the source has been cited multiple times.

If the poll was so flawed, perhaps you could point out exactly what its flaws were instead of attempting to cast doubt via vague criticisms that might not even apply to the poll in question.

Baraka_Guru · 08-21-2010, 06:33 PM

Straight from the horse's mouth:

Quote:

ABOUT THE SURVEY

Results for this survey are based on telephone interviews conducted under the direction of Princeton Survey Research Associates International among a national sample of 3,003 adults living in the continental United States, 18 years of age or older, from July 21-August 5, 2010 (2,002 respondents were interviewed on a landline telephone, and 1,001 were interviewed on a cell phone, including 431 who had no landline telephone). Both the landline and cell phone samples were provided by Survey Sampling International. Interviews were conducted in English and Spanish. For detailed information about our survey methodology, see Methodology - Pew Research Center for the People & the Press.

The combined landline and cell phone sample are weighted using an iterative technique that matches gender, age, education, race/ethnicity, region, and population density to parameters from the March 2009 Census Bureau's Current Population Survey. The sample is also weighted to match current patterns of telephone status and relative usage of landline and cell phones (for those with both), based on extrapolations from the 2009 National Health Interview Survey. The weighting procedure also accounts for the fact that respondents with both landline and cell phones have a greater probability of being included in the combined sample and adjusts for household size within the landline sample. Sampling errors and statistical tests of significance take into account the effect of weighting.

The following table shows the error attributable to sampling that would be expected at the 95% level of confidence for different groups in the survey:

[See webpage for chart]

In addition to sampling error, one should bear in mind that question wording and practical difficulties in conducting surveys can introduce error or bias into the findings of opinion polls.

Growing Number of Americans Say Obama is a Muslim: ABOUT THE SURVEY - Pew Research Center for the People & the Press

See also: Methodology - Pew Research Center for the People & the Press

Although it's difficult to wrap your mind around a "small" sample as a way of gauging the opinions of millions, there is a scientific methodology behind polling—ruling out the "polls" found on news websites for users to click on for instant results.

Of course it's not going to be dead-on with accuracy, but there is something to be said when you find results of a sizable proportion when you apply generally accepted principles of research statistics.

roachboy · 08-22-2010, 04:32 AM

there have been polls the results of which were to me incomprehensible---the percentages that approved of the iraq debacle at the height of the co-ordinated manufacture of consent for example. i remember thinking: perhaps ap was calling people in rural texas...

but it's obvious: a poll is a kind of snapshot. nothing more. there seems to have been a slippage over the past decade or so as the united states has slid more and more into a soft authoritarian system of self-domination that polls indicate something like a functioning democratic system, as if the results of phonebank people calling up a sample of 1200 which has bee statistically determined to represent everybody is like having actual power. whaddya think, whaddya think: you like skippy? crunchy or smooth? aint america grand?

i connect these numbers to the past few weeks of flirtation with racism on the part of the right over this fictional "ground zero mosque" which in turn connects to the wider flirtation with racism, sometimes surrounded with plausible deniability, that has been the tea-party, which have in common this loopy construction of an "us" which is "real amuricans" and a "them" which is Other....if "real amuricans" are white and protestant, then...it's not that hard to figure out.

i'm not sure that this results speaks to idiocy. i can speak to a whole lot of things beyond that, not many of them great as indicators of political well-being.

08-20-2010, 11:45 AM	#2 (permalink)
Wes Mantooth Junkie Location: Tennessee	I don't think anybody is surprised at what people think at this point, it is pretty sad though and somewhat horrifying that these people are allowed to vote. In a way its almost fascinating how easy it was to convince so many people of a lie, but then again when so many people are that consumed by hatred for the man they will eat up anything that paints him in a negative light. ...one also has to wonder why being a Muslim would be a bad thing in the first place... ...goddamn this is depressing. __________________ “My god I must have missed it...its hell down here!”

08-20-2010, 12:13 PM	#3 (permalink)
Cimarron29414 Still Free Location: comfortably perched at the top of the bell curve!	Fugly, I believe the Muslim faith states that any child born to a Muslim father is Muslim. So, generally, Muslims in America probably do consider him Muslim. Could that account for some small percentage of the numbers? Here's what I don't understand. This all plays out like being a Muslim is a bad thing and people incorrectly believing he is a Muslim is a negative. Sure, they are incorrect, but if he were a Muslim, I would think no differently of him. __________________ Gives a man a halo, does mead. "Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly."

08-20-2010, 12:20 PM	#4 (permalink)
Baraka_Guru warrior bodhisattva Super Moderator Location: East-central Canada	Obama's mother was born into a Christian family, but identified as a secularist. His father was born into a Muslim and Christian family and identified as an atheist before meeting his mother. Oh, but his middle name is Hussein! Yeah, the oddest thing about the Muslim hangup is that I get the impression that most view it as a strike against him. Could you imagine an open Muslim as the president? __________________ Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

08-20-2010, 01:00 PM	#6 (permalink)
Wes Mantooth Junkie Location: Tennessee	I hear ya kutulu, don't get me wrong I really do love living in the US but there are times I just feel like I need to say fuck it and find some other country to live in, these battles just aren't worth it. I do feel like sometimes we are dangerously close to building a christian theocracy or something worse...how many terrorist attacks or bad presidents are we away from just abandoning everything we stand for based on nothing more then ignorance and fear. Like BG wrote above, imagine what would happen if we elected a real Muslim president...the rest of the story writes itself. Stories like this really are depressing, we're better then this. __________________ “My god I must have missed it...its hell down here!”

08-20-2010, 02:05 PM	#10 (permalink)
FuglyStick WHEEEE! Whee! Whee! WHEEEE! Location: Southern Illinois	There's not a thing wrong with being Muslim. But in the eyes of the 1 in 5 mentioned in the poll, "Muslim" is synonymous with "terrorist." __________________ AZIZ! LIGHT!

08-20-2010, 12:48 PM	#5 (permalink)
kutulu Junkie	it's times like this when I feel like giving up on us as a country. Seriously, what are we fighting for when we can't even get one fifth of thee population to accept the fact that Obama isn't a Muslim? I'm not even sure if the country deserves to be saved

08-20-2010, 01:38 PM	#8 (permalink)
loquitur Junkie Location: NYC	I think if the headline writers and sensationalism seekers didn't constantly keep raising this as an issue, it likely wouldn't even occur to as much as 20% of the population that this is even an issue. People know about it because it keeps getting hurled at them. Some are gullible, some are hardcore idiots, but I bet the hardcore is pretty small. ---------- Post added at 09:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:37 PM ---------- And besides, I don't think Obama is much of a Christian, either. Just from observation, he strikes me as more of an agnostic. He does the Christian thing pretty well, though, because the community where he made his mark is a religious one and he needed to fit in.

08-20-2010, 01:42 PM	#9 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	What the hell is wrong with being a Muslim? They share about 95% of their mythology with Christianity and about 90% with Judaism. Most Muslims are perfectly nice people that happen to share a religious belief. There are nice people in every religion, generally overwhelmingly, and there are some assholes. If President Obama was an asshole, like, say, Bush, Bush, or Reagan (and probably a little Clinton), that would be something I'd like to know. Otherwise, why does it matter?

08-20-2010, 03:03 PM	#11 (permalink)
Tully Mars Living in a Warmer Insanity Super Moderator Location: Yucatan, Mexico	That's the part that bothers me- Muslim=terrorist thinking. I think if you polled the average Fox News viewer whether or not Obama was trying to help the terrorist destroy America you'd get well over 80% saying he is and should be stopped. __________________ I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club Last edited by Tully Mars; 08-20-2010 at 04:23 PM..

08-20-2010, 03:40 PM	#12 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	I read recently that, from 1980 to 2005, only 6% of terrorists were Muslim. Just 6%. That means 94% of terrorists are not Muslim, which considering 1.6-1.8 billion of the world's population out of 7 billion is Muslim, means Muslims are disproportionately less likely to be terrorists.

08-20-2010, 03:47 PM	#13 (permalink)
FuglyStick WHEEEE! Whee! Whee! WHEEEE! Location: Southern Illinois	Now Will, if you continue bringing logic to the table when discussing America's irrational fear of foreigners and non-Christian religions, we're going to have to find some other group to malign. Like Scots. __________________ AZIZ! LIGHT!

08-20-2010, 04:24 PM	#14 (permalink)
Tully Mars Living in a Warmer Insanity Super Moderator Location: Yucatan, Mexico	Or the Canadians... never trusted them, never. __________________ I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

08-20-2010, 05:07 PM	#17 (permalink)
ring ░ Location: ❤	In my small mid-western town, I'm surrounded by people who shun the naturally...tan. The fear that begets loathing is palpable. It shimmers in the heat fueled for profit. It stinks.

08-20-2010, 05:58 PM	#19 (permalink)
Fotzlid Junkie Location: Greater Boston area	...or that polls can be worded to to say whatever the pollster wants....

08-20-2010, 06:21 PM	#21 (permalink)
ring ░ Location: ❤	Will, that is the most anemic strawman I have seen you concoct. You know better.

08-20-2010, 11:27 PM	#23 (permalink)
boink Addict Location: Seattle	I just saw a 'where's the birth certificate' bumper sticker so I'm not surprised at all...scared, but not surprised. __________________ when you believe in things that you don't understand, then you suffer. Superstition ain't the way.

08-22-2010, 04:32 AM	#40 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	there have been polls the results of which were to me incomprehensible---the percentages that approved of the iraq debacle at the height of the co-ordinated manufacture of consent for example. i remember thinking: perhaps ap was calling people in rural texas... but it's obvious: a poll is a kind of snapshot. nothing more. there seems to have been a slippage over the past decade or so as the united states has slid more and more into a soft authoritarian system of self-domination that polls indicate something like a functioning democratic system, as if the results of phonebank people calling up a sample of 1200 which has bee statistically determined to represent everybody is like having actual power. whaddya think, whaddya think: you like skippy? crunchy or smooth? aint america grand? i connect these numbers to the past few weeks of flirtation with racism on the part of the right over this fictional "ground zero mosque" which in turn connects to the wider flirtation with racism, sometimes surrounded with plausible deniability, that has been the tea-party, which have in common this loopy construction of an "us" which is "real amuricans" and a "them" which is Other....if "real amuricans" are white and protestant, then...it's not that hard to figure out. i'm not sure that this results speaks to idiocy. i can speak to a whole lot of things beyond that, not many of them great as indicators of political well-being. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite