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Cynthetiq 02-01-2010 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willravel (Post 2754162)
The best argument against the absolute right of free speech is defamation/libel. If i publish an article in the local newspaper in which I accuse John McCain of having a homosexual affair (and play it off as serious), they should have every right to legal recourse because I am using free speech as a weapon to attack someone in a way where there could be significant consequences.

Consequences are not the same thing as not having the freedom. You do not have the freedom from consequences, but you can say what you want. There is the burden of responsibility and consequences with any freedom.

Baraka_Guru 02-01-2010 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq (Post 2754163)
Consequences are not the same thing as not having the freedom. You do not have the freedom from consequences, but you can say what you want. There is the burden of responsibility and consequences with any freedom.

But the problem with this is that you could say that for just about anything. "Your right is not being infringed; you're just suffering a consequence of using it." So if a law is passed tomorrow outlawing gun ownership, can we just say that you still have the right to bear arms, but the consequence of exercising that right is having them promptly removed and melted down into dog bowls?

I know, bad illustration....but do you see the problem with that?

Cynthetiq 02-01-2010 04:59 PM

There is a difference between the government infringing and a person infringing.

The government is not supposed to infringe, private citizens can and do all the time.

rahl 02-01-2010 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq (Post 2754165)
There is a difference between the government infringing and a person infringing.

The government is not supposed to infringe, private citizens can and do all the time.

I have no idea what this means. dk likes to say the govn't is of the people. So there shouldn't be any difference between the govn't and people.

Cynthetiq 02-01-2010 05:19 PM

you can't come into my house and spout off your mouth anymore than you can come to TFP and have us delete your comments.

People say that battle cry all the time, "First Amendment, my right to free speech..."

you can speech all you want, just not here. I'm not infringing on your ability to free speech at all.

rahl 02-01-2010 05:27 PM

That not only doesn't make sense, it's just not true. I am prohibited from yelling bomb on a plane. If I choose to, I will go to jail. That is a restriction. The consequence enforces the restriction, not invalidate it.

dksuddeth 02-01-2010 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derwood (Post 2754151)
how about machine guns for 4 year olds? no due process there

now THAT is a damned fine strawman. congrats.

---------- Post added at 07:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:36 PM ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru (Post 2754157)
So...rights aren't absolute?

this is what we call obtuse.

rights ARE absolute.

from the 5th Amendment - "nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law"

this means that rights are absolute and can ONLY be denied or restricted through due process of law.

let's not go the route of intellectual dishonesty by trying to twist words and phrases in to meanings that have no relevance.

rahl 02-01-2010 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth (Post 2754175)
now THAT is a damned fine strawman. congrats.

---------- Post added at 07:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:36 PM ----------



this is what we call obtuse.

rights ARE absolute.

from the 5th Amendment - "nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law"

this means that rights are absolute and can ONLY be denied or restricted through due process of law.

let's not go the route of intellectual dishonesty by trying to twist words and phrases in to meanings that have no relevance.

Please see above examples that prove rights are not absolute.

dksuddeth 02-01-2010 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rahl (Post 2754158)
Yes you can yell fire in a theatre, but not if there isn't one.

what stops me?

Quote:

Originally Posted by rahl (Post 2754158)
Nor bomb on a plane if there isn't one.

what stops me?

Quote:

Originally Posted by rahl (Post 2754158)
Those are exceptions to free speech, negating the absolute part.

a totally incorrect assumption on your part. do you get fitted with a gag that has a smoke detector in it so that you can only yell fire in a theater when it senses fire?

Quote:

Originally Posted by rahl (Post 2754158)
The president can declare a state of martial. All of these fly in the face of absolute rights "guaranteed" by the constitution.

is martial law a specific enumerated power granted to the federal government in the constitution?

Quote:

Originally Posted by rahl (Post 2754158)
And since the supreme court is the final legal authority, yes they are always correct, legally speaking.

if that is true, then nobody has any legitimate argument concerning any single ruling coming down from the USSC. Therefore, Kelo was completely correct, so was cruikshank and dred scott, and now this latest one.

Cynthetiq 02-01-2010 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rahl (Post 2754174)
That not only doesn't make sense, it's just not true. I am prohibited from yelling bomb on a plane. If I choose to, I will go to jail. That is a restriction. The consequence enforces the restriction, not invalidate it.

You get your own plane, and you shout whatever you want at the top of your lungs. Your freedom of speech is not impinged. You can yell bomb all you want.

If you don't understand that, well, it's just too trollish for my blood, I'm out.

dksuddeth 02-01-2010 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rahl (Post 2754169)
I have no idea what this means. dk likes to say the govn't is of the people. So there shouldn't be any difference between the govn't and people.

that is not what i've been saying. not sure where you got that from.

rahl 02-01-2010 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth (Post 2754179)
what stops me?

what stops me?

.

The law

---------- Post added at 08:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:51 PM ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth (Post 2754179)



a totally incorrect assumption on your part. do you get fitted with a gag that has a smoke detector in it so that you can only yell fire in a theater when it senses fire?

.

The restriction is in the consequence.

---------- Post added at 08:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:52 PM ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq (Post 2754180)
You get your own plane, and you shout whatever you want at the top of your lungs. Your freedom of speech is not impinged. You can yell bomb all you want.

If you don't understand that, well, it's just too trollish for my blood, I'm out.

If I'm in my own plane, then I can yell bomb. But I can't if I'm on a commercial airliner. If I do I go to jail, once again this negates the absolute right.

dksuddeth 02-01-2010 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rahl (Post 2754182)
The law

really? does the 'law' stop murder?

Quote:

Originally Posted by rahl (Post 2754182)
The restriction is in the consequence.

the consequence only restricts those that don't want to deal with it. It does nothing to stop someone from actually doing it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rahl (Post 2754182)
If I'm in my own plane, then I can yell bomb. But I can't if I'm on a commercial airliner. If I do I go to jail, once again this negates the absolute right.

what specific law says you can't yell fire in a theater?

rahl 02-01-2010 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth (Post 2754186)
really? does the 'law' stop murder?

?

It certainly stops me from killing alot of people I'd otherwise like to.

---------- Post added at 09:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:03 PM ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth (Post 2754186)

the consequence only restricts those that don't want to deal with it. It does nothing to stop someone from actually doing it.

Your's using a play on words. You refuse to acknowlege that the consequence constitutes the restrictio. I can't help you if you willfully refuse reality.

---------- Post added at 09:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:04 PM ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth (Post 2754186)
what specific law says you can't yell fire in a theater?

Here's just a few examples. Shouting fire in a crowded theater - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Baraka_Guru 02-01-2010 06:19 PM

This is getting ridiculous. There is no such thing as "absolute, except when...." Either it's absolute or it's not. If you have laws and due process of the law that just may, I don't know, limit your rights...then rights aren't absolute.

Rights are conditional. You have rights to do this or that as outlined in documents, but you must act in accordance to the law or your rights are revoked or otherwise "impinged." There are excpetions, many of which would be considered "natural laws," which include such things as the right to life and freedom from cruel and unusual punishment and all that, but even then you still have nations who use capital punishment.

So what are we getting at here, ultimately?

We have rights, but we also have laws. Laws trump rights?

Okay, so let me get this straight (I'm not being obtuse):
  • Rights are absolute except when they are limited, revoked, or otherwise "impinged" by the due process of the law?

Again, do we all agree on what the word absolute means?

---------- Post added at 09:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:09 PM ----------

Let me recontextualize.

Given that rights are absolute, but those rights can be taken away, if there could be a law instituted that put a cap or a ban on corporate/union contributions to political parties or the purchasing of political ads during campaigns, would this not indicate that a corporation's freedom of speech is not infringed? They're have the right to exercise free speech, but they would have their right removed or would otherwise be penalized by exercising it outside of the law.

Does this make sense?

Willravel 02-01-2010 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq (Post 2754163)
Consequences are not the same thing as not having the freedom. You do not have the freedom from consequences, but you can say what you want. There is the burden of responsibility and consequences with any freedom.

Okay, let's test this line of thought:
Do I have the freedom to murder someone? Should I commit murder (and be found guilty) there are certainly consequences, but as you say consequences are not the same thing as not having the freedom. If that's the case, what is unfree or the opposite of freedom, in practice?

Cynthetiq 02-01-2010 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willravel (Post 2754214)
Okay, let's test this line of thought:
Do I have the freedom to murder someone? Should I commit murder (and be found guilty) there are certainly consequences, but as you say consequences are not the same thing as not having the freedom. If that's the case, what is unfree or the opposite of freedom, in practice?

more troll bait. murdering someone removes their rights. that was the whole suggestion for the OJ civil trials.

Derwood 02-01-2010 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth (Post 2754175)
now THAT is a damned fine strawman. congrats..


Answer the question please

Willravel 02-01-2010 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq (Post 2754215)
more troll bait.

No, I'm taking your position and applying it to something more extreme to illustrate my issue with it. If you're unwilling or unable to respond, so be it, but please don't accuse me of trolling without taking a moment to even consider that you could have misunderstood what I posted or could even be wrong.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq (Post 2754215)
murdering someone removes their rights.

If a woman accuses you of rape, you could very easily end up in jail where your rights are taken from you. The accusation of rape isn't as serious as murder, but the point, which you avoided, was that consequences and freedom are linked, and that in turn applies directly the freedom of speech.

Defamation is an exception to our freedom of speech. I cannot (in theory) be persecuted because I espouse radical beliefs which I voice because the First Amendment protects me. The spirit of the freedom of speech is I can speak out against those in power without fear of legal consequences. If, however, I commit defamation, or speaking directly harmful untruths with ill-intent, I should have a fear of legal consequences as defamation, while clearly speech, is not totally free. That was my point.

roachboy 02-01-2010 08:06 PM

baraka---i think that works if you believe in that quaint notion of natural law.

the pope does. this afternoon he used it to make the fine argument that laws which assure equal access/treatment to things like adoption or marriage impinge on freedom of religion, which that fine fellow the pope defined for a minute around the possibility of discriminating against people the community of the faithful don't like.

anyway, natural law is a strange thing. it makes most sense as a reaction against the last phases of monarchical legal theory according to which all law emanated from the person of the king. well one of them. maybe not the material one. the other one. read kantorowicz and it'll all make sense.

but outside that context, what the fuck is natural law?
but without it the idea that there *Are* rights that kinda float around somehow that only need be shaped or limited makes no sense.
but i digress.

loquitors posts are really interesting in this thread. stuff to consider.

Baraka_Guru 02-01-2010 08:23 PM

Yes, roachboy, and for that reason, the idea of natural law seems, to me, rather archaic.

I think that all laws governing society are, well, social.

Cynthetiq 02-01-2010 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willravel (Post 2754219)
No, I'm taking your position and applying it to something more extreme to illustrate my issue with it. If you're unwilling or unable to respond, so be it, but please don't accuse me of trolling without taking a moment to even consider that you could have misunderstood what I posted or could even be wrong.

If a woman accuses you of rape, you could very easily end up in jail where your rights are taken from you. The accusation of rape isn't as serious as murder, but the point, which you avoided, was that consequences and freedom are linked, and that in turn applies directly the freedom of speech.

Defamation is an exception to our freedom of speech. I cannot (in theory) be persecuted because I espouse radical beliefs which I voice because the First Amendment protects me. The spirit of the freedom of speech is I can speak out against those in power without fear of legal consequences. If, however, I commit defamation, or speaking directly harmful untruths with ill-intent, I should have a fear of legal consequences as defamation, while clearly speech, is not totally free. That was my point.

Again, you're mistaking the difference between the government not allowing you the freedom of speech versus a natural citizen. You are purposefully being obtuse to troll the point. Legal consequences from an individual is not protected by the US Constitution.

Willravel 02-01-2010 09:01 PM

I always assumed naturalistic law was a consequence of holding a monotheistic belief—one god, one set of universal rules—but now that I think of it I know plenty of atheistic libertarians that seem to, to one degree or another, share this idea of universal rights. I may have been wrong to necessarily attribute such a belief system to religion. This would make for an interesting discussion in philosophy, but we might be getting a bit off topic right now.



So the Supreme Court overturned a long-standing ban on corporate spending on elections. My admittedly hasty reaction was that this is probably very bad. We're already in dire need of campaign finance reform, something many of our politicians have been fighting back against for a long time, but this is is something more obvious and more direct.

Let's say you're a Chinese corporation that owns factories that create solar panels. Like many large Chinese corporations, you have very strong ties to the Chinese government, meaning that often your interests align. You're concerned about the US government subsidizing their solar industry, so you make an investment by purchasing US airtime to prop up conservative candidates that are either fuzzy on climate change or are down-right anti-science so that those subsidies end. The advertisements on average contribute to wins and the subsidies end, meaning that you are now free to undercut American solar companies and are exporting to the US.

Is this free speech?

---------- Post added at 09:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:41 PM ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq (Post 2754226)
Again, you're mistaking the difference between the government not allowing you the freedom of speech versus a natural citizen. You are purposefully being obtuse to troll the point.

So I'm trolling or I'm stupid? That's called a false choice, Cynth, and it's an intellectually dishonest way of debating. Debate the facts and the conclusions, please.

When I refer to defamation as a limit on free speech, I'm essentially citing John Stuart Mill's "harm principle", an idea I've run into debating over on the Mises website. The crux of the principle is power should only be asserted over any member of a society by the government to prevent or punish the harm of others. Being an individualist, I figured this would be something you would appreciate.

If a woman were to accuse you of rape despite the fact you did not rape her, she is attempting to inflect harm on you via her words. It's in this case where, assuming she's found guilty, it is the responsibility of the government to bring punitive measures against her for her speech. She is not free to say anything she wants without fear of prosecution because some of her speech is inherently harmful to others. That's a necessary limitation on free speech.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq (Post 2754226)
Legal consequences from an individual is not protected by the US Constitution.

Can you word this differently, please? I'm not following.

dippin 02-01-2010 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq (Post 2754180)
You get your own plane, and you shout whatever you want at the top of your lungs. Your freedom of speech is not impinged. You can yell bomb all you want.

If you don't understand that, well, it's just too trollish for my blood, I'm out.

If you have to get your own place to shout what you want, isn't that in and of itself a limit on free speech? A limit that is placed and enforced by the government?

I think this is the point people have been trying to make. And lest I also be accused of "trolling," the fact is that no right is ever absolute. And to move this discussion away from the more extreme examples to more practical day to day things, we already know about, and almost all of us seem to accept, differences in communications from corporations and individuals.

We all seem to be ok with the notion that any one of us, individually, can say whatever crap we want about treatments and drugs, but we all seem to be ok with the notion that Bayer should not be able to run an ad claiming that aspirins cure cancer. We all seem to be ok with the notion that, as long as we don't do any tax evasion, we can lie, individually, to anyone about how much we make. But we all are OK with the idea that corporations should not be able to lie to potential investors.

dksuddeth 02-02-2010 05:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy (Post 2754221)
baraka---i think that works if you believe in that quaint notion of natural law.

I was waiting for this to come up. The same view that the framers and founders had, that of the 'quaint' notion of natural law, must be deconstructed in order to implement the statist view. If natural law can be deconstructed, then you can claim that your rights come from the government and can be modified at the will of the electorate. This is the plan that liberals and socialists have implemented.

rahl 02-02-2010 06:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth (Post 2754283)
I was waiting for this to come up. The same view that the framers and founders had, that of the 'quaint' notion of natural law, must be deconstructed in order to implement the statist view. If natural law can be deconstructed, then you can claim that your rights come from the government and can be modified at the will of the electorate. This is the plan that liberals and socialists have implemented.

Where do rights come from if not granted by the govn't?

Derwood 02-02-2010 07:28 AM

If I got on a tirade here at TFP and I get banned for what I say, can I sue HalX for impinging my free speech? If not, why?

dksuddeth 02-02-2010 07:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rahl (Post 2754296)
Where do rights come from if not granted by the govn't?

that is a question you need to find the answer to for yourself, because nothing I tell you is going to have you believe it.

You think the government grants you your rights? how did the government come to be? what created the government?

Rekna 02-02-2010 07:46 AM

If free speech were absolute you could do the following without going to jail:

1) Say you have a bomb at an airport
2) Tell a bank teller that you have a gun
3) Yell fire in a crowded theater
4) Openly commit slander
5) Openly commit libel
6) Say you are going to kill the president on national TV
7) etc

Freedom of speech is not and never has been absolute. Anyone who says it is absolute is completely ignorant on that point.

rahl 02-02-2010 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth (Post 2754309)
that is a question you need to find the answer to for yourself, because nothing I tell you is going to have you believe it.

You think the government grants you your rights? how did the government come to be? what created the government?

wasn't created by me nor you, so our rights came from someone else. That someone else was the govn't that was established over 200 years ago. And we have added rights numerous times since then. None of which are absolute. They can and have been changed multiple times.

roachboy 02-02-2010 07:52 AM

uh...the constitution? you could say that the language of the constitution itself is what defines natural law by the way in which it posits rights which precede it. you don't need a substantive notion of "natural law" for the game to work.

it's better that way i think, that natural law be understood as created by the constitution itself as the space which precedes and conditions it.

i was gonna start a thread about this and still might, but yesterday the pope, that fine progressive fellow, used a notion of natural law as part of his lovely arguments against equal protection legislation that extends stuff like access to housing or adoption or marriage to people to happen to be gay. the pope called all that stuff a violation of freedom of religion.

think i'm joking?

Pope condemns gay equality laws ahead of first UK visit | World news | guardian.co.uk

so that mean the pope sees religious beliefs as being legitimately expressed through the exclusion of people. and debate about those exclusions? well, that just comes from hotheads and "radicals". how do you know they're just hotheads and "radicals"? because of what they're arguing against. and what are they arguing against? why natural law of course.

dksuddeth 02-02-2010 07:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rahl (Post 2754316)
wasn't created by me nor you, so our rights came from someone else. That someone else was the govn't that was established over 200 years ago. And we have added rights numerous times since then. None of which are absolute. They can and have been changed multiple times.

I think you need to take history and constitution classes again. maybe you've actually never read the constitution, because your entire statement is false.

---------- Post added at 09:54 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:52 AM ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy (Post 2754318)
uh...the constitution? you could say that the language of the constitution itself is what defines natural law by the way in which it posits rights which precede it. you don't need a substantive notion of "natural law" for the game to work.

it's better that way i think, that natural law be understood as created by the constitution itself as the space which precedes and conditions it.

i was gonna start a thread about this and still might, but yesterday the pope, that fine progressive fellow, used a notion of natural law as part of his lovely arguments against equal protection legislation that extends stuff like access to housing or adoption or marriage to people to happen to be gay. the pope called all that stuff a violation of freedom of religion.

think i'm joking?

Pope condemns gay equality laws ahead of first UK visit | World news | guardian.co.uk

so that mean the pope sees religious beliefs as being legitimately expressed through the exclusion of people. and debate about those exclusions? well, that just comes from hotheads and "radicals". how do you know they're just hotheads and "radicals"? because of what they're arguing against. and what are they arguing against? why natural law of course.

all that has done is show the rational thinking world that organized religion should probably stay out of legal matters. Natural law isn't something handed down by the church, or the supposed deity of a church.

rahl 02-02-2010 07:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth (Post 2754319)
I think you need to take history and constitution classes again. maybe you've actually never read the constitution, because your entire statement is false.[COLOR="DarkSlateGray"]

---------- Post added at 09:54 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:52 AM ----------
.

Please show me where I'm mistaken.

dksuddeth 02-02-2010 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rahl (Post 2754323)
Please show me where I'm mistaken.


The 'government' didn't just spring up out of the ground and it wasn't here when we became a free nation. 'we the people' created the federal government. It belongs to us, it serves us, we are it's master. It would be an incredible leap of logic to then surmise that an entity we the people created could grant us our rights, don't you think?

to do otherwise, think that the government created itself, then created our states, and us as a whole, is to have not a single understanding about the founding of the USA.

Derwood 02-02-2010 08:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth (Post 2754325)
The 'government' didn't just spring up out of the ground and it wasn't here when we became a free nation. 'we the people' created the federal government. It belongs to us, it serves us, we are it's master. It would be an incredible leap of logic to then surmise that an entity we the people created could grant us our rights, don't you think?

to do otherwise, think that the government created itself, then created our states, and us as a whole, is to have not a single understanding about the founding of the USA.


That's a romantic notion, but the truth is that the Constitution was ACTUALLY created by a small group of men who took it upon themselves to speak on the behalf of everyone.

rahl 02-02-2010 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth (Post 2754325)
The 'government' didn't just spring up out of the ground and it wasn't here when we became a free nation. 'we the people' created the federal government. It belongs to us, it serves us, we are it's master. It would be an incredible leap of logic to then surmise that an entity we the people created could grant us our rights, don't you think?

to do otherwise, think that the government created itself, then created our states, and us as a whole, is to have not a single understanding about the founding of the USA.

Yes the constitution was written by people. But it is a legal contract, that is and has been subject to changes. As times change, it has to be both interprited and changed to fit the time/situation at hand. The founders couldn't invision a tube full of people flying through the air, so the restriction was put in place in modern times to limit the scope of the freedom of speech.

One last example of limits/restrictions placed on rights. I'll use the 2nd amendment.
Shall not be infringed is the language it uses. Yet in my state of Ohio, my right is infringed from bearing arms in certain places, govn't buildings, schools, banks and anywhere a business owner places a sign on the entryway stating that no weappons are allowed on premises. That puts a restriction on my right to bear arms.

unless the definition of absolute is changed in the dictionary, this discussion is over. Numerous examples have been placed before you showing you that your rights aren't absolute. I will no longer discuss this topic with someone who will not accept reality.

dksuddeth 02-02-2010 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derwood (Post 2754327)
That's a romantic notion, but the truth is that the Constitution was ACTUALLY created by a small group of men who took it upon themselves to speak on the behalf of everyone.

you also need to read the history of ratification then. That 'small group of men' were selected by representatives of each state, who were selected by the people of that state. Every written and crafted paragraph went through a vetting process, then was disseminated among those representatives. Those representatives and the media at that time explained to the people what it was they were creating and what each article meant as far as the power being given to the federal government. Then each state citizen got to vote as to how their representatives were going to vote on ratification.

You do know all this, right? Or are you under the impression that that small group of men wrote up the constitution and ratified it without any approval or disapproval from the citizens of each state?

---------- Post added at 10:39 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:37 AM ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by rahl (Post 2754337)
Yes the constitution was written by people. But it is a legal contract, that is and has been subject to changes. As times change, it has to be both interprited and changed to fit the time/situation at hand. The founders couldn't invision a tube full of people flying through the air, so the restriction was put in place in modern times to limit the scope of the freedom of speech.

One last example of limits/restrictions placed on rights. I'll use the 2nd amendment.
Shall not be infringed is the language it uses. Yet in my state of Ohio, my right is infringed from bearing arms in certain places, govn't buildings, schools, banks and anywhere a business owner places a sign on the entryway stating that no weappons are allowed on premises. That puts a restriction on my right to bear arms.

unless the definition of absolute is changed in the dictionary, this discussion is over. Numerous examples have been placed before you showing you that your rights aren't absolute. I will no longer discuss this topic with someone who will not accept reality.

so you approve of and endorse the current practice of having 545 people who are elected to serve you, interpret and define what your rights, liberties, and restriction are? then there is no hope for you to be free. dont' discuss it anymore, just bow down and accept your fate in reality.

Derwood 02-02-2010 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rahl (Post 2754337)
Yes the constitution was written by people. But it is a legal contract, that is and has been subject to changes. As times change, it has to be both interprited and changed to fit the time/situation at hand. The founders couldn't invision a tube full of people flying through the air, so the restriction was put in place in modern times to limit the scope of the freedom of speech.

One last example of limits/restrictions placed on rights. I'll use the 2nd amendment.
Shall not be infringed is the language it uses. Yet in my state of Ohio, my right is infringed from bearing arms in certain places, govn't buildings, schools, banks and anywhere a business owner places a sign on the entryway stating that no weappons are allowed on premises. That puts a restriction on my right to bear arms.

unless the definition of absolute is changed in the dictionary, this discussion is over. Numerous examples have been placed before you showing you that your rights aren't absolute. I will no longer discuss this topic with someone who will not accept reality.

dksuddeth isn't arguing reality, he's arguing what he thinks SHOULD be reality (per his perception of the framers' intentions). To him, you SHOULD be able to carry a gun into all of those places.

You're arguing two different things

Baraka_Guru 02-02-2010 08:41 AM

One would benefit from reading Foucault's "Governmentality," I would think. Of course there are a number of other critical theories produced in the 20th century that would also give one an interesting perspective on these things.

...as there is a difference between established intent and actual outcome/functionality.

Derwood 02-02-2010 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth (Post 2754338)

so you approve of and endorse the current practice of having 545 people who are elected to serve you, interpret and define what your rights, liberties, and restriction are? then there is no hope for you to be free. dont' discuss it anymore, just bow down and accept your fate in reality.

It's the exact same process as the ratification of the Constitution THAT YOU JUST POSTED.

How is a group of elected representatives passing laws that interpret and define my rights ANY DIFFERENT than a group of selected representatives vetting the Constitution and ratifying it?

ratbastid 02-02-2010 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy (Post 2754318)
it's better that way i think, that natural law be understood as created by the constitution itself as the space which precedes and conditions it.

Here's the real tragedy. This statement is THE key to the whole thing, and it's going to make a great WHOOOOOOSHING noise as it goes over the heads of natural law believers, on this thread and elsewhere.

It's pretty hard to fathom that a condition can be brought into existence as having preceded that which brought it into existence. It's counter-intuitive and paradoxical. It's a lot easier to have the shallow level of interaction with it by believing as Fact the assertion that it has always been the case.

dksuddeth 02-02-2010 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derwood (Post 2754340)
dksuddeth isn't arguing reality, he's arguing what he thinks SHOULD be reality (per his perception of the framers' intentions). To him, you SHOULD be able to carry a gun into all of those places.

You're arguing two different things

i've constantly made the distinction between what the constitution was written to be and what it is currently being tortured as. I'm fully aware that current reality has the government and courts restricting rights as THEY feel they should be. I'm also intelligent enough to be able to read plain text of documents as they are written and know that todays practices are not what the founders created for us. I'm also cognizant of the sheeples (yes, that's all of you who accept reasonable restrictions on your rights) willingness to surrender everyones freedoms for their own perception of safety in society. What I can't understand is the inability of that same group of sheeple to see that the government is going to look out for itself first, then maybe think of protecting you. But I guess there's no making a horse drink if you lead it to water.

---------- Post added at 10:48 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:46 AM ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derwood (Post 2754342)
It's the exact same process as the ratification of the Constitution THAT YOU JUST POSTED.

How is a group of elected representatives passing laws that interpret and define my rights ANY DIFFERENT than a group of selected representatives vetting the Constitution and ratifying it?

no, its not. your ignorance is showing.

when congress passes laws, they do not take the proposed law to the people of their districts and ask how they should vote, they just say aye or nay. The constitution was much different. If you're not going to learn what I teach you about the history of it, at least go take a class on it.

---------- Post added at 10:49 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:48 AM ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratbastid (Post 2754344)
Here's the real tragedy. This statement is THE key to the whole thing, and it's going to make a great WHOOOOOOSHING noise as it goes over the heads of natural law believers, on this thread and elsewhere.

the real tragedy is that you actually believe that bullshit. it's putting the cart before the horse. keep on believing that the government created your freedom, I could care less, especially if you're unwilling to believe the truth. That's what statism is about though.

Derwood 02-02-2010 08:52 AM

do you honestly believe that the Constitution would not have been ratified if the unwashed masses had seen problems with it?

Cynthetiq 02-02-2010 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derwood (Post 2754352)
do you honestly believe that the Constitution would not have been ratified if the unwashed masses had seen problems with it?

Yes. Look at what is going on now where they are allowed to vote on the adoption of new articles. This goes for the EU Constitution, and the emerging democracies.

As with where rights are derived, you can believe that they are given and taken away by the government. If you read teh first two paragraphs of the Declaration of Independence, you'll find that it's not the government that gives them to you, "they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights".
Quote:

When, in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bonds which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shown that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security.

ratbastid 02-02-2010 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth (Post 2754347)
the real tragedy is that you actually believe that bullshit. it's putting the cart before the horse. keep on believing that the government created your freedom, I could care less, especially if you're unwilling to believe the truth. That's what statism is about though.

Was there such a thing as "natural law" in the middle ages? What would have happened to a serf who claimed he had the right to free speech and self-determination? Was the inalienable rights of man somewhere lurking in the wings waiting to get discovered by some enlightened eighteenth-century wig-wearers?

They declared independence from England. They also declared into existence inalienable rights. They weren't a government yet when they did that. They founded a government upon their declaration of intrinsic, inalienable rights. That was, in large part, the whole breakthrough in government that the founding of the United States represented.

To say "no, those rights were always there and really ARE inherent to humanity" actually does injustice to what the founders created.

Derwood 02-02-2010 09:16 AM

The Declaration of Independence is not a legal document.

Also, the Creator? How is that better?

Cynthetiq 02-02-2010 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derwood (Post 2754367)
The Declaration of Independence is not a legal document.

Also, the Creator? How is that better?

It is better because as I was taught in Civics class that King George believed his was by birthright and that gave him the right to rule over people. It was important that the declarers made sure that sure that they elevated themselves (or lowered King George) to their level so that the discussion following would make sense to discuss as opposed to King George saying, "But God gave me the right to rule over you.

It doesn't state God, Allah, Yahweh, or any specific god, but one whom the reader identifies with as the power that created them, even if that means the spark of life at conception.

ratbastid 02-02-2010 09:35 AM

Well, but it wasn't just that George had this crazy thought about divine right of kings. That was REALLY HOW IT WAS. For CENTURIES. Everyone agreed to that. That was the deal--if God had you be King (and you could tell because... you were the king), then you had the God-given right to rule, and everyone else had the God-given duty to be ruled. That was just the deal.

Along came the framers of the US constitution who said, "Nope. All men created equal? Check! All people endowed (by their creator, ha ha!) with inalienable rights? Check!" That was a RADICAL notion for its day. Radical and NEW. And they posited it in a way that had it be a truth for all time, but it didn't actually exist until they said it.

That it didn't exist until they said it doesn't take away the "for all time"ness of it, any more than a marriage starting on a particular date doesn't take away the "for the rest of our lives"ness of that.

dippin 02-02-2010 10:08 AM

It is clear that a good portion of the people, plus a good portion of the judges in the judiciary, plus a good portion of those in the legislative, don't consider law to be natural. Let's say there really was something like "natural law." The moment that a good portion of humanity disagrees with what is natural, wouldn't that make the whole concept of natural law irrelevant (if not outright false)?

I mean, we know historically that all those rights considered part of "natural law" are actually quite recent, and the result of quite recent events. But even setting that aside, the moment we recognize that even us, here, have different views of the same things, doesn't that lead to the conclusion that certain things are not self evident? Or do we really believe that anyone who publicly disagrees with the notion of natural law actually knows, intimately, that natural law is right, but just choose to go against it for nefarious reasons?

The whole idea of natural law emerged as a rhetorical device to counter the notions of divine law and divine rights of kings.

Cynthetiq 02-02-2010 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dippin (Post 2754381)
The whole idea of natural law emerged as a rhetorical device to counter the notions of divine law and divine rights of kings.

exactly.

dksuddeth 02-02-2010 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratbastid (Post 2754375)
Along came the framers of the US constitution who said, "Nope. All men created equal? Check! All people endowed (by their creator, ha ha!) with inalienable rights? Check!" That was a RADICAL notion for its day. Radical and NEW. And they posited it in a way that had it be a truth for all time, but it didn't actually exist until they said it.

given that line of thought......black people were not considered people before the 13th Amendment, they were considered property. If they were considered property before then and not people, why was slavery bad? it didn't enslave humans, did it?

dippin 02-02-2010 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth (Post 2754387)
given that line of thought......black people were not considered people before the 13th Amendment, they were considered property. If they were considered property before then and not people, why was slavery bad? it didn't enslave humans, did it?

Denying that there is such a thing as natural law doesn't mean that anything goes, or that anything is right. In fact, your entire example shows why there is no such thing as natural law, given how the people who wrote so many "natural laws" seemed to ignore it.

Morality and compassion do not depend on the law being "natural."

dksuddeth 02-02-2010 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dippin (Post 2754392)
Denying that there is such a thing as natural law doesn't mean that anything goes, or that anything is right. In fact, your entire example shows why there is no such thing as natural law, given how the people who wrote so many "natural laws" seemed to ignore it.

Morality and compassion do not depend on the law being "natural."

that would simply mean that what you are saying is 'white people rule the world, the rest just have to follow'.

Slavery didn't mean that those people didn't have natural rights, just that they were being denied them at the time.

dippin 02-02-2010 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth (Post 2754394)
that would simply mean that what you are saying is 'white people rule the world, the rest just have to follow'.

Slavery didn't mean that those people didn't have natural rights, just that they were being denied them at the time.

Recognizing that white people ruled the world does not mean that that made it right. And if natural rights are neither self evident nor intrinsically adopted, the whole notion of natural law is irrelevant.

Again, denying that there is such a thing as natural law does not justify an "anything goes" approach, so the idea that anyone who believes that there is no natural law would be ok with slavery is nonsense. In fact, for a very long time the idea that rights are universal went squarely against the idea that rights are natural.

ratbastid 02-02-2010 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth (Post 2754394)
that would simply mean that what you are saying is 'white people rule the world, the rest just have to follow'.

Slavery didn't mean that those people didn't have natural rights, just that they were being denied them at the time.

dk, you're looking at history through the lens of common-times belief and morality. For slavers, slavery was entirely moral. It wasn't until it got said to be otherwise that it was looked at any other way. It really actually WAS TRUE that white people ruled the world and the rest just had to follow. And for a while there, the sun never set on the British Empire. And then the world changed and made that NOT TRUE ANYMORE.

Prior to the creation of the United States, the subjugation of lower classes by upper classes, nobles, and kings was moral, proper, and divinely ordained. Looking through the philosophical perspective our founders gave us and that we live in now, that looks exploitative and horrible, but THEN AND THERE, it was just how it was.

To now say, "Our founders were in touch with something that had always been there through tens of thousands of years of human history but nobody somehow noticed until Jefferson sat down in 1776 and started writing" is just silly. Doesn't it make more sense to say that our founders created a new view of the interrelation of government and the public? If you look at history, isn't that more or less what happened there?

EDIT: I just want to add that this is one of the most interesting conversations I've had in TP in recent times, and I sincerely thank everyone engaged in it for the opportunity for real thinking it's giving me.

rahl 02-02-2010 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth (Post 2754338)

[/COLOR]

so you approve of and endorse the current practice of having 545 people who are elected to serve you, interpret and define what your rights, liberties, and restriction are? then there is no hope for you to be free. dont' discuss it anymore, just bow down and accept your fate in reality.

DK, you also accept these things, otherwise you would be in jail. Do you carry a gun openly everywhere you go? Courthouses, schools, airports? Do you yell bomb on a plane just for fun? If you don't then you are a hypocrit according to your ideology.

You haven't raised up arms and declared war on the tyranical govn't yet have you?
So in some fashion you also have accepted these truths

dksuddeth 02-02-2010 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratbastid (Post 2754417)
dk, you're looking at history through the lens of common-times belief and morality. For slavers, slavery was entirely moral. It wasn't until it got said to be otherwise that it was looked at any other way. It really actually WAS TRUE that white people ruled the world and the rest just had to follow. And for a while there, the sun never set on the British Empire. And then the world changed and made that NOT TRUE ANYMORE.

Prior to the creation of the United States, the subjugation of lower classes by upper classes, nobles, and kings was moral, proper, and divinely ordained. Looking through the philosophical perspective our founders gave us and that we live in now, that looks exploitative and horrible, but THEN AND THERE, it was just how it was.

To now say, "Our founders were in touch with something that had always been there through tens of thousands of years of human history but nobody somehow noticed until Jefferson sat down in 1776 and started writing" is just silly. Doesn't it make more sense to say that our founders created a new view of the interrelation of government and the public? If you look at history, isn't that more or less what happened there?

EDIT: I just want to add that this is one of the most interesting conversations I've had in TP in recent times, and I sincerely thank everyone engaged in it for the opportunity for real thinking it's giving me.

The bolded part is exactly the point i've been making. For centuries, it was assumed that the rights and freedoms you had were given to you by your king/ruler/whatever and were subject to change. The framers, having been on the seriously shitty end of that deal decided that their rights weren't given to them by the monarchy, but were theirs naturally....maybe even for just being alive. Now, the case could be made that natural law is just a theory, much like rights being granted by governments, but I personally can't agree with the government being the one that grants my rights. They didn't create us, we created the government.

---------- Post added at 02:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:26 PM ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by rahl (Post 2754426)
DK, you also accept these things, otherwise you would be in jail. Do you carry a gun openly everywhere you go? Courthouses, schools, airports? Do you yell bomb on a plane just for fun? If you don't then you are a hypocrit according to your ideology.

I do carry a gun wherever I go, but concealed. I've carried in schools, i've carried in unsecure portions of the airport, banks, government buildings, etc. Anywhere that I do not have to go through a metal detector. I do not yell fire in a theater or bomb on a plane, but not because i'm afraid of the law or the consequences of doing it. That doesn't make me a hypocrite either. I don't do those things because I don't want to get people hurt. I wouldn't do it whether it was law or not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rahl (Post 2754426)
You haven't raised up arms and declared war on the tyranical govn't yet have you?
So in some fashion you also have accepted these truths

I have not accepted these. I'm simply not at the point where revolution is necessary. While there is still the ability to fight these in the legislature and the courts, the peaceful option must be taken.

rahl 02-02-2010 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth (Post 2754428)

I have not accepted these. I'm simply not at the point where revolution is necessary. While there is still the ability to fight these in the legislature and the courts, the peaceful option must be taken.

Not recognising the law as it applies to you isn't the same thing as having an absolute right. You don't have the "right" to carry a concealed weapon in those places. When you do, you are breaking the law.

Derwood 02-02-2010 12:39 PM

So being alive gives us the natural right to own and carry guns? LOLOLOLOLOL

dksuddeth 02-02-2010 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rahl (Post 2754431)
Not recognising the law as it applies to you isn't the same thing as having an absolute right. You don't have the "right" to carry a concealed weapon in those places. When you do, you are breaking the law.

I disagree. I do have that right. my rights are not subject to the fears, whims, demands, or desires of 9 black robed tyrants. any law that violates the constitution is null and void.

The Constitution and Freedom - Bonus Package! | The FOX Nation

---------- Post added at 02:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:40 PM ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derwood (Post 2754433)
So being alive gives us the natural right to own and carry guns? LOLOLOLOLOL

more obtuseness and ignorance? or just plain trolling? being alive gives us the right to be armed with weapons for defense. Whether that weapon is a gun, knife, club, or light saber in the future is irrelevant.

rahl 02-02-2010 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth (Post 2754434)
I disagree. I do have that right. my rights are not subject to the fears, whims, demands, or desires of 9 black robed tyrants. any law that violates the constitution is null and void.

.

You can disagree all you want, but the REALITY is that you don't have that right. It is a restriction placed on the right to bear arms. I also carry a concealed weapon, but not in places I am restricted.

Like I said, not recognising that a law applies to you is not the same thing as an absolute right.

I'd love to see you argue in ANY court if/when you get arrested for possesion of a deadly weapon where it's restricted, that you don't recognise the courts authority to impose the laws of the land on you.

roachboy 02-02-2010 12:51 PM

well wouldn't the point of the rhetorical construct of natural law be to give you recourse to a standard or idea of a standard that's not identical with the existing legal system so that you could argue a case such as dk's? and there need be no agreement that the "natural law" that was referred to actually *existed*---it's more a normative thing, an idea. such things move around over time with the what they're used to oppose.

it's kinda hard to figure out what natural law could possibly be outside of a religious framework. lots of folk have tried to put it somewhere, say what it is. it hasn't worked out so well.

but as one of a set of rhetorical tools that can be used to criticize or challenge an existing system or law, it's a useful fiction. there are others which are probably as or more useful for thinking about stuff. but pragmatically, since you have the idea of natural law built into the constitution itself (as an effect but no matter) i can see the appeal of using the term.
i can't see the appeal of claiming that there *is* natural law or that (within a religious framework) if there is one that human types know what it is.

dksuddeth 02-02-2010 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rahl (Post 2754438)
You can disagree all you want, but the REALITY is that you don't have that right. It is a restriction placed on the right to bear arms. I also carry a concealed weapon, but not in places I am restricted.

Like I said, not recognising that a law applies to you is not the same thing as an absolute right.

I'd love to see you argue in ANY court if/when you get arrested for possesion of a deadly weapon where it's restricted, that you don't recognise the courts authority to impose the laws of the land on you.

again, it wouldn't be the first time that the courts were totally wrong.

Derwood 02-02-2010 01:24 PM

So the judiciary can NEVER limit the rights of the Constitution for the common good?

dksuddeth 02-02-2010 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derwood (Post 2754463)
So the judiciary can NEVER limit the rights of the Constitution for the common good?

ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!!!! It is NOT the governments job, any branch, to change, adjust, limit, alter, or reinterpret the constitution because they feel it's for the common good. There are TWO ways to change the constitution, either its wording or its meaning, and the judiciary isn't one of them.

ratbastid 02-02-2010 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth (Post 2754469)
ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!!!! It is NOT the governments job, any branch, to change, adjust, limit, alter, or reinterpret the constitution because they feel it's for the common good. There are TWO ways to change the constitution, either its wording or its meaning, and the judiciary isn't one of them.

One of those is the amendment provision. What's the other?

dksuddeth 02-02-2010 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratbastid (Post 2754471)
One of those is the amendment provision. What's the other?

there are two ways for the amendment provision, that is what I was referring to.

one way is for congress to submit an amendment change, the other is for the states.

ratbastid 02-02-2010 01:52 PM

Ah. I gotcha.

rahl 02-02-2010 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth (Post 2754447)
again, it wouldn't be the first time that the courts were totally wrong.

Ok, now I understand. You know exactly what the framers had in mind, and you also know better than every supreme court justice in history. Now it all makes sense:thumbsup:

dksuddeth 02-03-2010 12:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rahl (Post 2754611)
Ok, now I understand. You know exactly what the framers had in mind, and you also know better than every supreme court justice in history. Now it all makes sense:thumbsup:

I know it's hard for people to comprehend, but you can indeed read the federalist papers, anti fed papers, and the constitutional debates as well as all of the commentaries on the proposed constitution and come to the realization you understand exactly what the framers wanted. It's not written in sanskrit and it doesn't take a law degree with years as a judge to understand what 'shall make no law' means.

dippin 02-03-2010 02:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth (Post 2754628)
I know it's hard for people to comprehend, but you can indeed read the federalist papers, anti fed papers, and the constitutional debates as well as all of the commentaries on the proposed constitution and come to the realization you understand exactly what the framers wanted. It's not written in sanskrit and it doesn't take a law degree with years as a judge to understand what 'shall make no law' means.

So are you saying that anyone who disagrees with what you view as the obvious interpretation of the constitution actually knows that they are wrong, but instead are just lying through their teeth? That any disagreement at all about the constitution arises solely out of bad faith of those who disagree with the apparently obvious definition?


Of course, shall make no law is obvious in its meaning. But what exactly is speech and press are not so clear, as the discussion that started this thread exemplifies. Is donating money to a certain cause or organization speech that is protected by the first amendment? Is espionage speech that should be protected by the first amendment? False drug advertisement? Child pornography?

rahl 02-03-2010 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth (Post 2754628)
I know it's hard for people to comprehend, but you can indeed read the federalist papers, anti fed papers, and the constitutional debates as well as all of the commentaries on the proposed constitution and come to the realization you understand exactly what the framers wanted. It's not written in sanskrit and it doesn't take a law degree with years as a judge to understand what 'shall make no law' means.

Will you atleast admit that the framers in no way could invision situations that have arison in modern times. If you can atleast admit that then you can see why the vast majority understand that you can't take the literal text of the constitution and apply it to today's situations. That's why it must be interprited by the judiciary.

dksuddeth 02-03-2010 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rahl (Post 2754700)
Will you atleast admit that the framers in no way could invision situations that have arison in modern times. If you can atleast admit that then you can see why the vast majority understand that you can't take the literal text of the constitution and apply it to today's situations. That's why it must be interprited by the judiciary.

I will not admit that, simply because none of their writings indicated that they cared. Their whole intent was to limit the federal government no matter the 'modern times'. It is why they implemented an amendment process to be initiated by the people. There is no possible way that after experiencing the abuses of a central government, they would imply that they would allow a central government to change the constitution without the peoples express permission via the amendment process. NO POSSIBLE WAY!

rahl 02-03-2010 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth (Post 2754705)
I will not admit that, simply because none of their writings indicated that they cared. Their whole intent was to limit the federal government no matter the 'modern times'. It is why they implemented an amendment process to be initiated by the people. There is no possible way that after experiencing the abuses of a central government, they would imply that they would allow a central government to change the constitution without the peoples express permission via the amendment process. NO POSSIBLE WAY!

What you fail to realise is that things evolve. Speech now means different things than it did in the 18th century, so the judiciary is charged with interpriting the language of the constitution to fit with current situations.

dksuddeth 02-03-2010 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rahl (Post 2754708)
What you fail to realise is that things evolve. Speech now means different things than it did in the 18th century, so the judiciary is charged with interpriting the language of the constitution to fit with current situations.

and what you fail to realize is that by allowing, endorsing, and promoting the government that we created to 'reinterpret' things in the constitution with each new evolution, you are giving up your rights and freedoms. It's how we end up with exceptions to every amendment like 'well regulated militia' to mean the national guard when the guard was not even an idea when the 2nd was written, or how the 4th Amendment can be whittled down because an epidemic of stupidity in drunk driving demands we give up more protection, or the commerce clause power gets expanded because the government wants to control what you can grow on your own property for your own use, or how the political turmoil of todays century can be used to reduce freedom of speech to 'free speech zones'. Is this the kind of 'living document' you think the founders envisioned when they wrote it, after having a central government do the exact same thing to them that inevitably led to a revolutionary war? I think not.

Derwood 02-03-2010 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth (Post 2754710)
and what you fail to realize is that by allowing, endorsing, and promoting the government that we created to 'reinterpret' things in the constitution with each new evolution, you are giving up your rights and freedoms. It's how we end up with exceptions to every amendment like 'well regulated militia' to mean the national guard when the guard was not even an idea when the 2nd was written, or how the 4th Amendment can be whittled down because an epidemic of stupidity in drunk driving demands we give up more protection, or the commerce clause power gets expanded because the government wants to control what you can grow on your own property for your own use, or how the political turmoil of todays century can be used to reduce freedom of speech to 'free speech zones'. Is this the kind of 'living document' you think the founders envisioned when they wrote it, after having a central government do the exact same thing to them that inevitably led to a revolutionary war? I think not.

You can't name a single thing that government has "reinterpreted" that is for the common good? Not one?

dksuddeth 02-03-2010 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derwood (Post 2754738)
You can't name a single thing that government has "reinterpreted" that is for the common good? Not one?

whether I can or not is irrelevant. It wasn't done within the constitutional framework of their enumerated powers.

ratbastid 02-03-2010 11:56 AM

You've come up against the end of the conversation with dksuddeth on this one, gents. He's a Strict Constructionist true believer, and he's as religious about it as the Pope.

Derwood 02-03-2010 12:47 PM

and he's just (about) not going to take it anymore!

Baraka_Guru 02-03-2010 01:32 PM

Well, if the Constitution isn't a living document and if it cannot be actively interpreted by a judiciary, then I would say that it is an inherently flawed and dysfunctional document, especially when you consider how unclear and sometimes misleading the language is. America needs to amend the hell out of it.

If this same document were to be presented today as a nation's proposed constitution, what do you think people would say about it?

Cynthetiq 02-03-2010 01:50 PM

This explains this discussion better than I have seen elsewhere.

Quote:

View:
Source: Opinionator NYTimes.com
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February 1, 2010, 9:30 pm
What Is the First Amendment For?
By STANLEY FISH

Stanley Fish on education, law and society.
Tags:

Campaign Finance, First Amendment, Supreme Court

Citizens United v. Federal Election commission — the recent case in which the Supreme Court invalidated a statute prohibiting corporations and unions from using general treasury funds either to support or defeat a candidate in the 30 days before an election, and overruled an earlier decision relied on by the minority — has now been commented on by almost everyone, including the president of the United States in his state of the union address.

I would like to step back from the debate about whether the decision enhances our First Amendment freedoms or hands the country over to big-money interests, and read it instead as the latest installment in an ongoing conflict between two ways of thinking about the First Amendment and its purposes.
Related

* Linda Greenhouse: The Next Time »
* Supreme Court Decision (pdf), Jan. 21, 2010

We can approach the conflict by noting a semantic difference between the majority and concurring opinions on the one hand and the dissenting opinion — a 90-page outpouring of passion and anger by Justice Stevens — on the other. The word most important to Justice Kennedy’s argument (he writes for the majority) is “chill,” while the word most important to Stevens’s argument is “corrupt.”

Kennedy, along with Justices Roberts, Alito, Thomas and Scalia (the usual suspects), is worried that the restrictions on campaign expenditures imposed by the statute he strikes down will “chill” speech, that is, prevent some of it from entering the marketplace of ideas that must, he believes, be open to all voices if the First Amendment’s stricture against the abridging of speech is to be honored. (“[A] statute which chills speech can and must be invalidated.”) Stevens is worried — no, he is certain — that the form of speech Kennedy celebrates will corrupt the free flow of information so crucial to the health of a democratic society. “[T]he distinctive potential of corporations to corrupt the electoral process [has] long been recognized.”

When Stevens writes “has long been recognized,” he is invoking the force of history and asking us to take note of the reasons why many past court decisions (including one written by then-Chief Justice Rehnquist) have acknowledged the dangers posed by corporations, dangers that provoked this declaration by Theodore Roosevelt in 1905: “All contributions by corporations to any political committee or for any political purpose should be forbidden by law.”

Behind such strong statements is a twin fear: (1) the fear that big money will not only talk (the metaphor that converts campaign expenditures into speech and therefore into a matter that merits First Amendment scrutiny), but will buy votes and influence, and (2) the fear that corporations and unions, with their huge treasuries, will crowd out smaller voices by purchasing all the air time and print space. The majority, Stevens admits, does “acknowledge the validity of the interest in preventing corruption,” but, he complains, it is not an interest it is interested in, for “it effectively discounts the value of that interest to zero.”

That’s not quite right. Kennedy and the others in the majority make the proper noises about corruption; they just don’t think that it is likely to occur and they spend much time explaining why corporations are citizens like anyone else (a proposition Stevens ridicules) and why, for various economic and public-relation reasons, they pose no threat to the integrity of the electoral process.

But even if they thought otherwise, even if they were persuaded by the dire predictions Stevens and those he cites make, they would come down where they do; not because they welcome corruption or have no interest in forestalling it, or discount the value of being concerned with it, but because they find another interest of more value, indeed of surpassing value. That is the value of being faithful to what they take to be the categorical imperative of the First Amendment, which, with respect to political speech, forbids the suppression of voices, especially voices “the Government deems to be suspect” (Kennedy); for if this voice now, why not other voices later?

Even if there were substance to the charge of “undue influence” exercised by those with deep pockets, it would still be outweighed, says Kennedy, citing an earlier case, “by the loss for democratic process resulting from the restrictions upon free and full discussion.” The question of where that discussion might take the country is of less interest than the overriding interest in assuring that it is full and free, that is, open to all and with no exclusions based on a calculation of either the motives or the likely actions of individual or corporate speakers. In this area, the majority insists, the state cannot act paternally. Voters are adults who must be “free to obtain information from diverse sources”; they are not to be schooled by a government that would protect them from sources it distrusts.

Notice how general Kennedy’s rhetoric has become. The specificity of Stevens’s concerns, rooted in the historical record and in the psychology and sociology of political actors, disappears in the overarching umbrella category of “information.” The syllogism is straightforward. Freedom of information is what the First Amendment protects; corporation and unions are sources of information; therefore their contributions — now imagined as wholly verbal not monetary; the conversion is complete — must be protected, come what may.

That, Kennedy is saying, is the Court’s job, to allow the process to go forward unimpeded. It is not the Court’s job to fiddle with the process in an effort to make it fairer or more representative, a point Chief Justice Roberts makes in his concurring opinion when he cites approvingly the Court’s “repudiation,” in Buckley v. Valeo (1976), “of any government interest in ‘equalizing the relative ability of individuals and groups to influence the outcomes of elections.’” Equality may be a good thing; it might be nice if no one had a disproportionate share of influence; but it’s not our job to engineer it. Let the market sort it out.

The majority’s reasoning reaches back to a famous pronouncement by Oliver Wendell Holmes, who acknowledges in Gitlow v. New York (1925) that there are forms of discourse, which, if permitted to flourish, might very well bring disastrous results. Nevertheless, he says, “If in the long run the beliefs expressed . . . are destined to be accepted by the dominant forces of the community, the only meaning of free speech is that they should be given their chance and have their way.”

Holmes’s fatalism — let everyone speak and if the consequences are bad, so be it — stands in contrast to the epistemological optimism of Justice Brandeis who believes that if the marketplace is allowed to be completely open bad speech will be exposed and supplanted by good speech (a reverse Gresham’s law): “The remedy to be supplied is more speech, not enforced silence” (Whitney v. California, 1927). Both justices reject state manipulation of the speech market , one because he is willing to take what comes — it is Holmes who said that if his fellow countrymen wanted to go to hell in a hand-basket, it was his job to help them — the other because he believes that what will come if speech is unfettered will be good.

The justices in the Citizens United majority are more in the Brandeis camp. They believe that free trade in ideas with as many trading partners as wish to join in will inevitability produce benign results for a democratic society. And since their confidence in these results is a matter of theoretical faith and not of empirical or historical observation — free speech is for them a religion with long-term rewards awaiting us down the road — they feel no obligation to concern themselves with short-term calculations and predictions.

Stevens also values robust intellectual commerce, but he believes that allowing corporate voices to have their full and unregulated say “can distort the ‘free trade in ideas’ crucial to candidate elections.” In his view free trade doesn’t take care of itself, but must be engineered by the kind of restrictions the majority strikes down. The marketplace of ideas can become congealed and frozen; the free flow can be impeded, and when that happens the only way to preserve free speech values is to curtail or restrict some forms of speech, just as you might remove noxious weeds so that your garden can begin to grow again. Prohibitions on speech, Stevens says, can operate “to facilitate First Amendment values,” and he openly scorns the majority’s insistence that enlightened self-government “can arise only in the absence of regulation.”

The idea that you may have to regulate speech in order to preserve its First Amendment value is called consequentialism. For a consequentialist like Stevens, freedom of speech is not a stand-alone value to be cherished for its own sake, but a policy that is adhered to because of the benign consequences it is thought to produce, consequences that are catalogued in the usual answers to the question, what is the First Amendment for?

Answers like the First Amendment facilitates the search for truth, or the First Amendment is essential to the free flow of ideas in a democratic polity, or the First Amendment encourages dissent, or the First Amendment provides the materials necessary for informed choice and individual self-realization. If you think of the First Amendment as a mechanism for achieving goals like these, you have to contemplate the possibility that some forms of speech will be subversive of those goals because, for instance, they impede the search for truth or block the free flow of ideas or crowd out dissent. And if such forms of speech appear along with their attendant dangers, you will be obligated — not in violation of the First Amendment, but in fidelity to it — to move against them, as Stevens advises us to do in his opinion.

The opposite view of the First Amendment — the view that leads you to be wary of chilling any speech even if it harbors a potential for corruption — is the principled or libertarian or deontological view. Rather than asking what is the First Amendment for and worrying about the negative effects a form of speech may have on the achievement of its goals, the principled view asks what does the First Amendment say and answers, simply, it says no state abridgement of speech. Not no abridgment of speech unless we dislike it or fear it or think of it as having low or no value, but no abridgment of speech, period, especially if the speech in question is implicated in the political process.

The cleanest formulation of this position I know is given by the distinguished First Amendment scholar William Van Alstyne: “The First Amendment does not link the protection it provides with any particular objective and may, accordingly, be deemed to operate without regard to anyone’s view of how well the speech it protects may or may not serve such an objective.”

In other words, forget about what speech does or does not do in the world; just take care not to restrict it. This makes things relatively easy. All you have to do is determine that it’s speech and then protect it, as Kennedy does when he observes that “Section 441b’s prohibition on corporate independent expenditures is . . . a ban on speech.” That’s it. Nothing more need be said, although Kennedy says a lot more, largely in order to explain why nothing more need be said and why everything Stevens says — about corruption, distortion, electoral integrity and undue influence — is beside the doctrinal point.

The majority’s purity of principle is somewhat alloyed when it upholds the disclosure requirements of the statute it is considering on the reasoning that the public has a right to be informed about the identity of those who fund a corporation’s ads and videos. “This transparency enables the electorate to make informed decisions.”

Justice Thomas disagrees. The interest “in providing voters with additional relevant information” does not, he says, outweigh “’the right to anonymous speech.’” The majority’s claim that disclosure requirements do not prevent anyone from speaking is, Thomas declares, false; those who know that their names will be on a list may refrain from contributing for fear of reprisals and thus be engaged in an act of self-censoring. The effect of disclosure requirements, he admonishes, is “to curtail campaign-related activity and prevent the lawful, peaceful exercise of First Amendment rights.”

Only Thomas has the courage of the majority’s declared convictions. Often the most principled of the judges (which doesn’t mean that I always like his principles), he is willing to follow a principle all the way, and so he rebukes his colleagues in the majority for preferring the value of more information to the value the First Amendment mandates — absolutely free speech unburdened by any restriction whatsoever including the restriction of having to sign your name. Thomas has caught his fellow conservatives in a consequentialist moment.

The consequentialist and principled view of the First Amendment are irreconcilable. Their adherents can only talk past one another and become increasingly angered and frustrated by what they hear from the other side. This ongoing soap opera has been the content of First Amendment jurisprudence ever since it emerged full blown in the second decade of the 20th century. Citizens United is a virtual anthology of the limited repertoire of moves the saga affords. You could build an entire course around it. And that is why even though I agree with much of what Stevens says (I’m a consequentialist myself) and dislike the decision as a citizen, as a teacher of First Amendment law I absolutely love it.


dksuddeth 02-03-2010 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru (Post 2754772)
Well, if the Constitution isn't a living document and if it cannot be actively interpreted by a judiciary, then I would say that it is an inherently flawed and dysfunctional document, especially when you consider how unclear and sometimes misleading the language is. America needs to amend the hell out of it.

please explain why? When it was first ratified, it was designed to protect the rights of the individual. What has changed since then that it should have the hell amended out of it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru (Post 2754772)
If this same document were to be presented today as a nation's proposed constitution, what do you think people would say about it?

I can't speak for anyone else, but for me I'd say that every article, clause, paragraph, and amendment in the bill of rights should have the disclaimer added to it that there is no room for interpretation of ideological reasoning. If it's not written exactly in the statement, then it cannot be assumed.

Baraka_Guru 02-03-2010 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq (Post 2754776)
This explains this discussion better than I have seen elsewhere.

Fish delivers again. Thanks for the post, Cyn.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth (Post 2754781)
please explain why? When it was first ratified, it was designed to protect the rights of the individual. What has changed since then that it should have the hell amended out of it?

Well, nothing has changed with the document itself, I suppose, with the exception of amendments. The problem is that the document isn't very well written when you consider how widely it has been interpreted. There is one thing I can say with confidence about the American Constitution: one cannot always say, "the Constitution says so with no uncertain terms." As far as its function, that hasn't changed either. It is designed to protect the individual and to limit the powers of government. At the same time, its intent is not to render government powerless.

What has changed is that it is becoming increasingly difficult to protect the interests of the individual in a world of increasing complexity, abstraction, and mass communication (not to mention duplicity).

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth
I can't speak for anyone else, but for me I'd say that every article, clause, paragraph, and amendment in the bill of rights should have the disclaimer added to it that there is no room for interpretation of ideological reasoning. If it's not written exactly in the statement, then it cannot be assumed.

But this is the problem and the point of my previous post. It isn't always clear what exactly is meant in the writing.

roachboy 02-03-2010 02:15 PM

Quote:

I can't speak for anyone else, but for me I'd say that every article, clause, paragraph, and amendment in the bill of rights should have the disclaimer added to it that there is no room for interpretation of ideological reasoning. If it's not written exactly in the statement, then it cannot be assumed.
you mean this in the way that "i am saying that..." can be tacked on to any sentence you say, right?

what does "ideological reasoning" mean?

dksuddeth 02-03-2010 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru (Post 2754784)
Well, nothing has changed with the document itself, I suppose, with the exception of amendments. The problem is that the document isn't very well written when you consider how widely it has been interpreted.

When it was first written and the various speakers went about the colonies explaining the whole thing, NOTHING was ever refuted, NOTHING. Everyone who read the various commentaries knew what it was about. It only became muddled after the fact by ideological politicians with agendas. Alien and Sedition Acts as a case in point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru (Post 2754784)
There is one thing I can say with confidence about the American Constitution: one cannot always say, "the Constitution says so with no uncertain terms." As far as its function, that hasn't changed either. It is designed to protect the individual and to limit the powers of government. At the same time, it's intent is not to render government powerless.

When the phrases of 'shall make no law', 'shall not be infringed', 'no warrant shall', and others like it can't be understood to mean it shall not be done, the rest of it is meaningless. And it doesn't render the government powerless. It prescribes very specific powers, but that's it. Those powers aren't supposed to ebb and flow because the government feels it can't do something it wasn't supposed to, but feels the need to.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru (Post 2754784)
What has changed is that it is becoming increasingly difficult to protect the interests of the individual in a world of increasing complexity, abstraction, and mass communication.

The government was charged with protecting the rights of the people, nothing more, nothing less. That's not that hard to do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru (Post 2754784)
But this is the problem and the point of my previous post. It isn't always clear what exactly is meant in the writing.

all the commentaries about it during ratification suggest otherwise.

---------- Post added at 04:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:16 PM ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy (Post 2754785)
you mean this in the way that "i am saying that..." can be tacked on to any sentence you say, right?

what does "ideological reasoning" mean?

ideological reasoning.....like deciding that the commerce clause can be used to regulate whether someone can grow a dozen roses or tulips in their backyard because it affects the interstate market for roses or tulips. You and I both know that there is no way in absolute hell that the framers wanted the feds to have that kind of power with the commerce clause.

Baraka_Guru 02-03-2010 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth (Post 2754787)
When it was first written and the various speakers went about the colonies explaining the whole thing, NOTHING was ever refuted, NOTHING. Everyone who read the various commentaries knew what it was about. It only became muddled after the fact by ideological politicians with agendas. Alien and Sedition Acts as a case in point.

What was the literacy rate in the colonies back then? The education level? Did everyone get the communication? You do know how difficult it was to pass on information back then compared to now, right?

Do you think that the Constitution in its current form if presented today would have such widespread acceptance and lack of confusion surrounding its language?

As far as nothing being refuted, I find that rather suspect. I've always found American history intriguing. I should have studied it more.

Quote:

When the phrases of 'shall make no law', 'shall not be infringed', 'no warrant shall', and others like it can't be understood to mean it shall not be done, the rest of it is meaningless. And it doesn't render the government powerless. It prescribes very specific powers, but that's it. Those powers aren't supposed to ebb and flow because the government feels it can't do something it wasn't supposed to, but feels the need to.
The questions aren't about the language constructions you quoted above, the questions are about what "it" is they're referring to. One could say that the document is flawed by how confusing it is. It makes "shalt not" the default position based on not being fully sure what government "shall" or "shalt not" do exactly.

Quote:

The government was charged with protecting the rights of the people, nothing more, nothing less. That's not that hard to do.
Not hard to do? You make it sound easy: "Hey, just protect the rights of the people, okay?" Um...what, wait! How, exactly? You have gravely oversimplifed this matter.

Quote:

all the commentaries about it during ratification suggest otherwise.
I haven't read the commentaries. Can the commentaries be used in interpreting the constitution?

rahl 02-03-2010 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth (Post 2754787)

When the phrases of 'shall make no law', 'shall not be infringed', 'no warrant shall', and others like it can't be understood to mean it shall not be done, the rest of it is meaningless. And it doesn't render the government powerless. It prescribes very specific powers, but that's it. Those powers aren't supposed to ebb and flow because the government feels it can't do something it wasn't supposed to, but feels the need to.

.

I'm going to make a few assumptions here, so if I'm wrong please correct me. I assume that the supreme court justices are pretty smart people. I also assume that they understand their role in govn't, which is to interpret law and the constitution.
I also assume that you are a pretty smart person, but not a supreme court justice, if you happen to be one then ok fine, but please explain to me why your opinion should trump the highest court in the land?

I'm sure that at some point, each justice has most likely read all the papers you are referring to.

dksuddeth 02-03-2010 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rahl (Post 2754800)
I'm going to make a few assumptions here, so if I'm wrong please correct me. I assume that the supreme court justices are pretty smart people. I also assume that they understand their role in govn't, which is to interpret law and the constitution.
I also assume that you are a pretty smart person, but not a supreme court justice, if you happen to be one then ok fine, but please explain to me why your opinion should trump the highest court in the land?

I'm sure that at some point, each justice has most likely read all the papers you are referring to.

remember this phrase.....'power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely'.

Now, Are the USSC justices smart people? I would assume so since almost every USSC justice has been to law school and been a lawyer. One shouldn't assume that they understand their role in govt. Some probably have, while some have probably salivated at the opportunity to make long standing federal policy. Their role should be to interpret the laws as written, compared to the plain text of the constitution, then decide if those written laws violate the plain text of the constitution. When you allow those justices to also interpret the constitution, you end up with tortured variations of the constitution so that you end up with rulings that you end up with 'public use' being defined as 'increasing the tax base of a community', such as we ended up with the Kelo decision. Had those justices NOT 'interpreted' the constitution, but ruled along the plain text, there is no possible way that 'public use' could be interpreted to mean 'stealing private property, handing it over to another private entity for development, and then calling it public use because it increases tax revenue'.

Where 'we the people' messed up was allowing that bullshit to go unpunished. When a decision is handed down, and we the people know damned well that it violates the constitution, we should have pushed for an impeachment of those justices. Why did we not? I would assume that most of us are at least intelligent enough to read the constitution and understand it, right?

for example, we passed the 14th Amendment to insure that all recently freed slaves enjoyed all the rights of US citizenship, correct? yet when us v cruikshank was ruled upon in direct contravention of the 14th Amendment, because those judges were racist, we didn't act and we should have.

Of course, i'm sure that some people will say that impeaching justices for bad rulings sets bad precedent or some such thing. But isn't changing or ignoring the will of the people in effect treason?

power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely.

we should not let those we put in to positions of power and authority abuse that trust.

rahl 02-03-2010 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth (Post 2754804)
remember this phrase.....'power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely'.

Now, Are the USSC justices smart people? I would assume so since almost every USSC justice has been to law school and been a lawyer. One shouldn't assume that they understand their role in govt. Some probably have, while some have probably salivated at the opportunity to make long standing federal policy. Their role should be to interpret the laws as written, compared to the plain text of the constitution, then decide if those written laws violate the plain text of the constitution. When you allow those justices to also interpret the constitution, you end up with tortured variations of the constitution so that you end up with rulings that you end up with 'public use' being defined as 'increasing the tax base of a community', such as we ended up with the Kelo decision. Had those justices NOT 'interpreted' the constitution, but ruled along the plain text, there is no possible way that 'public use' could be interpreted to mean 'stealing private property, handing it over to another private entity for development, and then calling it public use because it increases tax revenue'.

Where 'we the people' messed up was allowing that bullshit to go unpunished. When a decision is handed down, and we the people know damned well that it violates the constitution, we should have pushed for an impeachment of those justices. Why did we not? I would assume that most of us are at least intelligent enough to read the constitution and understand it, right?

for example, we passed the 14th Amendment to insure that all recently freed slaves enjoyed all the rights of US citizenship, correct? yet when us v cruikshank was ruled upon in direct contravention of the 14th Amendment, because those judges were racist, we didn't act and we should have.

Of course, i'm sure that some people will say that impeaching justices for bad rulings sets bad precedent or some such thing. But isn't changing or ignoring the will of the people in effect treason?

power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely.

we should not let those we put in to positions of power and authority abuse that trust.

To me this seems overly cynical. Obviously ALL people are susceptible to corruption, but that doesn't mean ALL people have been corupted when in positions of power. I understand your position on the literal wording of the document, but the literal wording could not possibly account for all possible situations hundreds of years in the future.

dksuddeth 02-03-2010 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rahl (Post 2754809)
To me this seems overly cynical. Obviously ALL people are susceptible to corruption, but that doesn't mean ALL people have been corupted when in positions of power. I understand your position on the literal wording of the document, but the literal wording could not possibly account for all possible situations hundreds of years in the future.

but therein lies the problem with the way people think.....or not think for that matter. Back then, the people knew that THEY were in control and if THEY needed to change things in the constitution, then they did. Nowadays, people are lazy, stupid, and apathetic. Instead of thinking and doing for themselves, they just want government to handle it. That attitude is what has allowed the government to control our lives instead of us controlling theirs. We need to take that back from them if we want to remain free.

rahl 02-03-2010 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth (Post 2754817)
but therein lies the problem with the way people think.....or not think for that matter. Back then, the people knew that THEY were in control and if THEY needed to change things in the constitution, then they did. Nowadays, people are lazy, stupid, and apathetic. Instead of thinking and doing for themselves, they just want government to handle it. That attitude is what has allowed the government to control our lives instead of us controlling theirs. We need to take that back from them if we want to remain free.

But at the time there were only 13 colonies and 2.5 million people. Things are considerably different now, so a document that served well for that situation doesn't serve as well with the present circumstances, IMHO.

dksuddeth 02-03-2010 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru (Post 2754793)
I haven't read the commentaries. Can the commentaries be used in interpreting the constitution?

They can be read to understand the intent of the framers.

Founders' Constitution: Table of Contents

Derwood 02-03-2010 03:55 PM

If the text of the Constitution is so clear and plain and obvious in its intentions, then why do you keep invoking the federalist papers et al to support your assertions?

It's because many part of it ARE unclear, not plain, and not obvious, thus the widely varying interpretations

dksuddeth 02-03-2010 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rahl (Post 2754820)
But at the time there were only 13 colonies and 2.5 million people. Things are considerably different now, so a document that served well for that situation doesn't serve as well with the present circumstances, IMHO.

then we must decide, do we want to maintain control of our country, government, and most of all our freedom, or do we say that there are too many idiots in the nation now, therefore we need the government to tell us what to do?

I would prefer the former, myself.

Derwood 02-03-2010 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth (Post 2754824)
then we must decide, do we want to maintain control of our country, government, and most of all our freedom, or do we say that there are too many idiots in the nation now, therefore we need the government to tell us what to do?

I would prefer the former, myself.

Your perception of freedom isn't the norm. I live my life day to day and don't feel like the government is impinging on my life, liberty or pursuit of happiness whatsoever. I think many, many Americans feel the same way. I'm not sure what misery the government is putting you through that you feel so strongly about it

rahl 02-03-2010 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth (Post 2754824)
then we must decide, do we want to maintain control of our country, government, and most of all our freedom, or do we say that there are too many idiots in the nation now, therefore we need the government to tell us what to do?

I would prefer the former, myself.

My, nor anyone else that I've ever know, has had their country, govn't or their freedeom out of their control. I maintain control by excersising my right to vote. Remember that we are a representative democracy, not a majority rule. So there will inevitably be people who are disapointed, but thats what we were founded as.

dksuddeth 02-03-2010 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derwood (Post 2754827)
Your perception of freedom isn't the norm. I live my life day to day and don't feel like the government is impinging on my life, liberty or pursuit of happiness whatsoever. I think many, many Americans feel the same way. I'm not sure what misery the government is putting you through that you feel so strongly about it

my right to carry a gun for self protection is infringed every day by the requirement of a license to carry concealed, which I refuse to pay for. This was done by majority rule. YOU may not feel like the government is impinging on any of your rights, but I feel it everyday.

---------- Post added at 08:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:13 PM ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by rahl (Post 2754831)
My, nor anyone else that I've ever know, has had their country, govn't or their freedeom out of their control. I maintain control by excersising my right to vote. Remember that we are a representative democracy, not a majority rule. So there will inevitably be people who are disapointed, but thats what we were founded as.

to protest or demonstrate against the government in public, a street or sidewalk whos construction and maintenance was paid for by your tax dollars, what do you have to obtain?

Derwood 02-03-2010 06:20 PM

true. I hate guns, will never own one, and don't give a shit about whether you can carry one without a license or not. you win on that particular point

Willravel 02-03-2010 06:24 PM

Apparently the Supreme Court overturned a ban on direct corporate spending on elections. I should start a thread about it.

rahl 02-03-2010 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willravel (Post 2754869)
Apparently the Supreme Court overturned a ban on direct corporate spending on elections. I should start a thread about it.

My bad :sad:


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