Census worker murdered, "FED" carved into chest
 

The Associated Press: AP source: Census worker hanged with 'fed' on body


A few months back, Michelle Bachmann was a guest on Glenn Beck rallying against the census for no particular reason other than simply wanting to be anti-goverment or some vague anti-immigration thing. This kind of irresponsible and nonsensical garbage is commonplace, but it's been suggested that these kinds of things could incite radical militants into action. It seems fairly obvious that the murder of the census worker was motivated by anti-government sentiment (I'm not investigating, but based on the available evidence that seems the most likely conclusion to be drawn).

If it can be established that Michelle Bachmann and Glenn Beck inspired this attack, is there any legal mechanism to prevent them from inciting further violence/murders? What's your take on this? Am I just seeing a connection that's not there?

Wow. Can this be real?

You know, I've read for a while now about how dangerous this crazy rightwing anti-government bullshit on Fox and whatnot was, that there are crazies out there who will take this stuff too far. But man, I'm not sure I ever believed it...

Wow. Is this the next step? The low simmer appears to be heading towards a boil.

Yes, we can all say it's just one crazy person out there but this *is* an escalation.

I can only hope this is an isolated event.

Nonetheless, the attention this may garner could be harmful in more ways than one.

It's a whackjob inspired by an asinine policy in a misguided attempt to inspire anti-government sentiment to stop the spread of government growth.

That being said, to paint Glen Beck et al with the punishment for incitement of the murder you open the door to holding the anti-war propoganda (including Harry Reid for proclaiming our Iraq soldiers as rapists) for Abdul Hakim Muhammad.

I likewise hope that this is an isolated, and irrepeatable, anomaly.

However, things like this are motivated by fear. It would behoove all concerned to meditate upon the source and motive of that fear: and no, it isn't Faux News.

To quote John Ross: "Stripping a motivated people of their dignity (ed; or whatever remains of it) and rubbing their faces in it is never a good idea."

Beck/Bachman can easily dismiss this as an isolated lunatic and wash their hands of it.

Isolated incident? Perhaps the incident itself, but you know that there are thousands of hard line conservatives out there nodding their heads in agreement.

I don't mean to suggest they're directly responsible, that argument can't be supported with available information, but doesn't it seem within reason that reports such as theirs may have served to inspire this incarnation of anti-government attack?

Anyway, the idea that a strict Constitutionalist conservative would be against the census is asinine. Article 1, Section 2: "The actual Enumeration shall be made within three Years after the first Meeting of the Congress of the United States, and within every subsequent Term of ten Years, in such Manner as they shall by Law direct."

Anybody seen DK recently?

And is this a threat, Dunedan? Are you threatening to take up arms against a democratically elected government?

I'd imagine the source of the fear is a lack of education and too much TeeVee.

The same environment that allows many ancient 'isms to continue existing.

...

I get it. Attack someone who won't fight back. Gotcha. America - fuck yeah.

Just the names for Obama alone...
COMMUNISM FASCISM NAZISM CONSTUCTIONISM KENTOISM KENYANISM FEUDALISM etc.

No, this is a friendly warning, and I mean that in all seriousness. No reasonable person -wants- a civil war, in this or any nation or time. But certain actors are pushing perilously close to a cultural "tipping point" which risks igniting such a conflict whether I want it to or not.

How stupid do you take me for? Do you think that if I was planning such a thing I'd put it on the internet?! No, of course not. Being prepared for such an eventuality is something different. Just because I carry a fire-extinguisher in my car, do you think I -want- the thing to catch fire? Just because I put up "No Trespassing" signs, do you think I -want- to shoot poachers?

Secondarily, what is it about "democratically elected" that makes anything, let alone a gang of extortionist thugs, legitimate and worthy of authority? Democracy, the rule of the many and powerful over the few and powerless, took Socrates and gave us Robespierre in return. Thank you, no.

Except that no tipping point is being reached in anything. Taxes are still lower than they were for most of history, gun ownership is up, attendance to religious services is at its highest point in American history, government spending is nowhere near historical highs...

Shush, one of them "colored" guys is in office and them damned democrats is stealing our non-existent healthcare.

...

Guy that killed the census worker... do you think he cares about factual statistics? Something tells me he doesn't read US News and World Report.

...

People are disillusioned with the flopped economy and are taking it out on the establishment.

The two aren't related but that doesn't matter to Joe the Plumber. He's got murder on his mind.

Fine, then here is a warning for you as well--most people are not going to be frightened off by the war drums of malcontents and extremists, and would happily take up arms in the defense of democracy. Just so we are clear, hmm?

Well now I'm a bit worried. :expressionless:

Two words ... bull shit. There are serious crystal meth, pot and stills happening in places like Clay County. The average gang-banger would shit in their pants out there. People like this guy usually just disappear if they appear out of place or perceived as a threat. This was most likely a warning to any outsiders.

This strategy by liberal politicians to stir up unsubstantiated racial fear against conservatives is itself the most cowardly and devious form of racism. It is shameful and irresponsible. Many here all too eager to jump on the bandwagon. Manufactured bigotry serves as a powerful propaganda tool. Perhaps we should round them all up and ship them away in boxcars to work camps... just in case they might act up. Try googling anti-Bush images and past violent liberal protests.

Perspective folks... you're treading dangerous ground if you are bent on claiming racism and spreading fear irresponsibly.

Oh for Pete's sake, I'm the crazy anarcho-libertarian in this discussion, I'm the guy way out in right field someplace, but even I'm not loopy enough to post threats against the government on the internet. Besides being dumb as a brick tactically and strategically, it's a good way to get arrested, which I'd prefer to avoid. Besides which, both my political and strategic/warfighting philosophies preclude initiation of conflict, so you're safe from me and my confederates, at least. I've no interest in starting (or being involved with starting) what could potentially turn in a military and humanitarian disaster unlike anything in recent history. Casualties, in a truly insurgent scenario, would be absolutely horrid, on all or both sides, Iraq cubed or worse for all involved. Anybody with any brains sees this, and wants to avoid it if at all possible.

I didn't hear a word of that, what with all your saber rattling.

---------- Post added at 11:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:58 PM ----------

Oh, and dude, the census taker was WHITE; I don't believe anyone said it was racially motivated.

Aaah, thank god. ;)

I put $50 on a meth lab, myself. They're popping up left and right... even in suburban neighborhoods. Had one out here (of all places) recently. No fun when you see some cops in hazmat suits at 3 AM. Definitely no fun when you see said suits escorting unshielded children from the building. :( Inhuman.

...

There is no revolution. Just illegal enterprise to be protected.

If I made myself unclear, I apologise. I'll try to do better in future.

Edited to add:

Certainly possible, I must concede as well. Meth-heads get violent, and meth-heads get -stupid-. If you're right, this could get interesting in a whole different way.

Holy crap. "hanged from a tree" is what we call 'lynching' here in the south. Anyone know the ethnicity of the deceased?

I for one think that yes, Fox news & co are partly responsible here, by whipping people into a frenzy. What I'm not sure of is what, if anything could or should be done about it. AFAIK, they aren't specifically inciting people to do things like this, but they are (very carefully) coming as close as possible without actually doing it. Fox gets freedom of speech, so I don't see any legal recourse so long as they don't cross the line into actually advocating this stuff. But when you tell people that 'the feds' are 'coming to get them'...some people are going to fall for it, and they have to know that.

Along these lines, I just want to point out that something like 95% of these 'anti-government' protesters were completely silent while Bush was in office, and the government was acting pretty much exactly as it is now. This is about a Democrat in office, and the anti-democrat machine whipping up a frenzy. Race probably helps for some of this as well, but I wouldn't say it's a 'deciding factor' for the majority of the tea-partiers.

The_Duendin was wrong to post what he did, because it does come off as extremist. However, the funny thing is that the people before him were posting things just as risky and insulting.

Until shown otherwise, this was an isolated incident by one or more truly disturbed individuals who will with any luck be caught and severely punished. To make an immediate beeline to shouting down Glenn Beck and Michele Bachmann and people you disagree with without any evidence is, as was said, like someone drawing a line from terrorist activities to anti-war and liberal anti-government activities.

I don't recall many people liking it when those lines were drawn in the past.

And, just as an aside, how long until the first Hannibal Lector jokes start coming out?

This whole thread is underpinned by the assumption that the killer WAS indeed motivated by anti-government sentiments.

Don't jump to conclusions too quickly. What if it was some lovers quarrel and the killer is trying to throw off the police?

Just a thought. I could be completely wrong.

Hopefully. As crass as that word really sounds in this context, even to me.

Well dude... You are implicating white coservatives as being behind this hanging, correct? The implication you make is based on race and idiology, correct? Race-based bigotry is racism. If it makes you feel better to replace my use of the term "racism" with "bigotry", then feel free to do so. It doesn't change the premis or intent in promoting unsubstantiated fear against a group where the majority of individuals happen to be white. I see no difference.

BTW - The killing of the 3 white northern liberal activists by the KKK in the sixties was racially motivated... even if it was white guys killing white guys... dude.

Er, as I said, no one as far as I know implied it was racially motivated; certainly not me. Dude.

Again, just so we're clear, "FED" was carved into his flesh. FED. Not "Go away, we want to enjoy our methamphetamines", not "we're quite dangerous" and not "Crypts". It was "FED".

But I guess this is the liberals' fault.

Last time I checked, not only are census takers "FEDs", but DEA and ATF agents are too. And I doubt someone who is going to lynch a federal employee and take the time to mark the body as such is worried about the difference.

This guy is a 51 year old substitute teacher, not an federal agent with a weapon and covered in ballistic gear. Let's be reasonable here.

---------- Post added at 10:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:55 PM ----------

No, those would technically be political killings. Racial violence is done by a member or members of one race to a member or members of another race.

Huh, maybe they're just really irked with Ben Bernanke.

right.
this has nothing to do with the style of populist agitation that our buddies in the neo-fascist right have been working.

so FED could refer to the fact that he was taken to a barbeque just before he was lynched.

don't jump to conclusions.
jesus christ.

...or they really have it out for Britney's back-up dancer turned baby-daddy.

so many ways to interpret the word FED.
really, why link it to the large-scale, well-funded agitation of the far right?
why do that?

Verbally, of course.

Sorry Will... I disagree... it wasn't politics that got those kids killed... they were nothing more than black sympathisers. In fact, most Klan members were democrats at the time. All they cared about was preserving the social order. Racial motivated, not political.

The poor guy that was hung may not have hurt a fly and was a saint in every way. He was probably just in the wrong place at the wrong time. Believe me when I say that people sometimes disappear in these areas, and law enforcement has a healthy respect for caution and self preservation. These communities are well organized and don't like outsiders.

I think the article tries to stir up unfounded controversy and promote fear regarding the tea-party types or right-wingers in general. A disturbing political propaganda trend.

Yes, the LEFT are the chief practitioners of unfounded accusations, fear-mongering, and populist witch hunts. Certainly not the right.

It looks like there might be a little more to this than people being incited to violence by TV and radio talk programs.

According to the article linked below, police had experience with problems in the area before and had warned Bill Sparkman to be careful. Also, police knew the area where he was found had problems with meth and other drug trafficking.

So no, I'm not ready to attribute this to talk show hosts inciting people to violence.

I could make similar claims about some of the more liberal websites I used to read a few years ago. I have regularly read material on democrats.com or moveon.org that might incite unbalanced people to do things they shouldn't.

I hope they catch whoever is responsible and make an example of him.

Slain census worker was warned about area - Crime & courts- msnbc.com

WASHINGTON - When Bill Sparkman told retired trooper Gilbert Acciardo that he was going door-to-door collecting census data in rural Kentucky, the former cop drew on years of experience for a warning: "Be careful."

...

Manchester Police Chief Jeff Culver, whose agency is not part of the investigation because the death was outside city limits, said the area where Sparkman was found has a history of problems with prescription drug and methamphetamine trading.

"That part of the county, it has its ups and downs. We'll get a lot of complaints of drug activity. They'll whittle away, then flourish back up," Culver said. He said officers last month rounded up 40 drug suspects, mostly dealers, and made several more arrests in subsequent days.

sure. see the word FED carved in to a government volunteer and automatically start looking for me.

I hear there's lots of open space in virginia, can I come hang out with you for awhile?

:devious:

This is a tragedy and in no way should what I write be interpreted as justifying this crime. I don't know what the motivation was, if it was related to talk shows or something else. However, one pet peeve I have always had about law enforcement activities is when they do "sting" operations or use undercover type operations to investigate illegal activity. In certain parts of this country Meth labs are very common, rural Kentucky is one of those areas. This gives an idea and I bet it under-reports the problem:

http://www.usdoj.gov/dea/concern/methmap_2008.jpg

http://www.usdoj.gov/dea/concern/map_lab_seizures.html

My theory is that rather than talk shows, what we may have is paranoid Meth lab operators and an innocent "federal government" census worker. The two don't mix in an environment where a knock on the door, a government official asking questions and drug related illegal activity is taking place. When law enforcement pretends to be something other than what they are through "stings", it puts innocent people at risk. This, to me, is a "sending a message" type crime to anyone who comes into that area uninvited.

This is all I have to say. Don't ask me a question if you don't want me to respond further.

Give me a break, a paranoid meth cooker would not hang and then carve, because that's only going to invite law enforcement to the area. A first grader could predict that. If it just looked like a regular murder, it would not garner national attention and there wouldn't be pressure to investigate.

This was done to attract attention, and it was done at a time when radical anti-governmental sentiment is boiling over. This isn't rocket science.

You don't have much experience dealing with tweakers, do you? Meth-heads are DUMB. Their brains look like swiss cheese on an MRI, and there's a good reason. A'int a whole lot left goin' on up there after a few weeks, let alone the -years- that people spend addicted to that shit. Tweakers do dumb shit like that all the time, like the neighbor of mine who called in to the Sherriff's Office to report that his stashes of Meth and pot had been stolen (still in jail), or the local boy who decided that, in order to avoid tipping off the authorities by having an electric-bill spike in the neighborhood, decided to heat his lab with a KeroSun space-heater.

I'm perfectly willing to believe that this was an act of misguided political violence. Given the locale, however, I'm equally willing to believe that this is the work of brain-fucked tweakers or Mexican pot-farmers. And trust me, the Mexicans -WOULD- carve something like that. Those Cartel boys are more than mean-crazy enough. Coupla Cuban dumbasses (lotsa Floridian retirees up here, in fact a whole rural neighbohood is known as Little Havana) who robbed 'em a few years back ended up floating down the French Broad River minus their heads...both kinds...which were in turn found scattered around the county in the dumpsters of various Latino or Latino-friendly businesses where they'd be sure to be recognized.

I'd like a lot more info regarding the investigation before jumping to any conclusion(s.) There's too many possibilities regarding motive to say exactly why this happened. The area seems to be a known problem and the guy was warned. So there's that. He could have stumbled on a meth lab, still or illegal grow operation. Could also be a right wing nut job. Could be a left wing nut job trying to make the right look bad. Remember the the chick who carved a backward "B" into her face to make Obama supporters look bad? Bet she wishes she went with an "O." I also think KirStang has a point, spouses, lovers, business partners and known associates make up something like 90% of all homicides in the US. My guess is the team working on this is tracking down everyone the guy knows, if nothing else just to clear them off the list of suspects. The last thing the officers and DA want is to find someone they think did it and have the defense show up in court with another viable suspect the police never cleared. "So you're telling the court his business partner hated his guts and told people he was going to kill the guy?" "Det. did you know this?" "No"!?!" "So you never checked to see if he had an alibi?" "No!, Seriously, never checked this info out? So for all you know he had motive and he could have done it, right?"

Bottom line more info is needed before making any conclusions as to what this means... if anything.

Will, if the "Paranoid Meth Cookers" were logical, they probably wouldn't be cooking meth and living in poverty in Kentucky.

They would either be honest working men or successful meth cookers somewhere else.

Our planet has no shortage of "crazy" why would you expect someone cooking meth to be well balanced?


This may well be exactly what you propose, but that would require someone to be even more crazy: Someone who kills someone because they resent government intrusion is just asking for a whole lot more of it. Especially when they then go ahead and carve "FED" into them. If you just want to be left alone, whether because you are anti-government or a drug-producer this crime is not in your best interest.

It may be someone looking to make a personal statement, but I doubt you can then go so far as to assume they were also Glen Beck fans.

Personally I resent the questions being asked by the Census, I feel they should only ask the number and ages of those in my household. I agree with Glen Beck on this point, but I fail to see how my opinion is subversive and dangerous to the point where it is inciting people to kill government employees.


Even if the perpetrator of this crime was such a person, why would they go after the low-hanging fruit (the census worker) when so many bigger targets are easily available? Again, the answer just doesn't make sense.

huh, well first off if there's data on a publicly availble database about the lab distribution then they aren't terribly clandestine, now are they?

fact is that no-one *knows* what the motive behind this is just as no-one *knows* any number of other particularities about any number of other events. but it is nonetheless obvious that there has been both a wave of far right agitation on largely paranoid grounds around the census in particular, about the federal government in general.

it is obvious that in this case, because it points to problems with conservative political actions, folk from the right would be calling for all to be circumspect while in the various depressing (from logical, evidentiary and political viewpoints) thread and/or subthreads about acorn, anything goes with the same people in terms of reckless use of spotty evidence to draw ridiculous conclusions.

so if i understand the subtext, it comes down to the usual partisan nonsense from the right, covered by the usual projections as to everyone else, such that these actions hardly appear actions at all, but rather are Reasonable Responses to What Everyone Does.

but perhaps the same circumspection conservatives are calling for from those who link this crime to the political actions carried out by the neo-fascist set within the conservative coalition should also be asked of them--you don't know that the crime is *not* directly linked to this political agitation either. and the "demonstrations" offered are not compelling.

fact is that we won't know until we know, right?

Isn't that data from known/found labs? Info like this is usually used to show where activities are known to be occurring.

You assume people who would operate a meth lab and or use meth think the way you would. The criminal mind is unique. The criminal mind on drugs adds further to the problem.


I have attended a few seminars on the meth lab problem conducted by law enforcement officials. During one presentation, he used humor to illustrate the obvious but extreme risks being taken by people who "cook" meth. He showed pictures of the accidents. He also, showed how easily it was to follow the trail to their labs. I am not going to be able to educate you on the issue - but if you are inclined I would suggest you look into it. It is not an urban issue or a California issue, there is a very unique culture to this, with some similarities to moonshine.

So, again you can go off on me and make assumptions that I am clueless or you could take an open minded approach. Your choice has been made clear, your mind seems to be made up. Have fun with that.

---------- Post added at 09:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:06 PM ----------

When you look at Missouri statistics you will see a spike. At one point they changed the way they report the activity. Law enforcement officials will tell you that "official" numbers a vastly under reported. One problem is that it is very easy to get everything needed to start a lab at the local hardware store, and those who are "smart" don't blow their houses up - but a good investigator can find the labs given time and resources to follow-up.

Lot of baseless assumptions flying around here. "FED" could have just as easily meant that the guy was given a delicious spaghetti dinner before he was killed.

There's no such thing as "the criminal mind". That's an oversimplified term and idea that's sold to the public by an ignorant media. Everyone is capable of committing a crime.
It's a serious issue in Riverside (and to a lesser degree in Oakland), actually, but that's not particularly relevant.

FED is where things go from "I dunno" to "oh shoot, that's probably" territory. What you're asking us to believe is that the meth head was clever and motivated enough to hang and carve FED specifically on the chest of someone that doesn't even closely resemble a DEA agent, but that the idea of this being political motivated is jumping the gun.

Given the nature of posting on sites like this, just about everything has to be condensed. Why do we need to play these kind of games - did you really not understand the point or are you just being argumentative? Criminals generally think they can get away with their crimes. Non-criminals are often people who avoid criminal acts for fear of being caught among other reasons (Do I need to further qualify that general statement further taking us off point or do you understand?).

Relative, again the problem is much bigger in rural southern states.

There are (generally) two types of meth labs. There are the people who "use" and have a lab and there are people with labs to make money. The people in it simply to make money can be a tad bit more organized and ruthless.

Seems like there's a lot of speculation flying about on both sides. Both conveniently political. pfft.

Any of you all ever been to eastern Kentucky? We go there a lot to ride ATVs and have a good time.Probably half of the people there are poor, white, poorly educated and vote Democrat because their daddy and his daddy before voted Democrat. By some accounts it's also the pot growing capital of the US. I'm no federal agent by any means and there's some places in Eastern Kentucky I wouldn't get outa my car even if it broke down. You never know you might stumble on something you have no business knowing about or someone that might fear you might stumble on something you have no business knowing about. I seriously doubt there was any "political" motivation like some of you suppose. It's probably more of a fear of the government as a whole rather than the beginning of a Republican revolt. I doubt they watch Glenn Beck or any political show. They was probably just fucked up on some good moonshine and meth and things got out of control. Now a poor soul is dead and they will get caught and spend the rest of their lives in jail.

A K-Fed Tattoo gone wrong? :eek:

:lol:

EDIT

?

Is that an attempt to say that gun ownership is not up and religious services attendance are not at all time highs?

Data from the NCIS shows gun sales increasing every year, with quite significant increases between 2007 and 2009.

As for religious membership, the 1890 census showed that at that time 45% of the population were members of a church/synagogue/mosque. That number rose to 58% in the 1920s, and currently has floated around the sixties.

Here's a graph from one of the best books on data on religion around (The Churching of America, 1776-2005), based on census estimates:

http://i34.tinypic.com/whfxba.jpg


The fact is that all those who are quick to decry the fall of civilization and this and that are all wrong in most counts.

Religion is up, taxes are down, etc. etc.

It was me initially posting, reading what I posted was a complete thread jack (my bad for not just hitting back) and taking it down. Sometimes I get so caught up in the direction some of these conversations go I forget what the op wanted to discuss.

Please take note I only posted part of your quote, I had mentioned nothing of gun ownership or religion in my deleted post.

We're talking about the "cornbread mafia" down here. They would do something like this, and have done much worse. I live 2 hrs from this place and know an ATF agent with stories about these people that are disturbing. This is a world unto itself. Writing FED on someone's chest and hanging them with the intent to be found is not a stretch (NPI) ... these people are ruthless and brutal.

This is not political. You know why Obama wont send the Gitmo folks down to Clay or Laurel county... or anywhere in eastern KY... they might turn up as road-side jerky... and that might be percieved as cruel and unusual.

sorry, I assumed the "EDIT" was like the "fixed" people often use on forums, and since you took out the part of the sentence on guns and religion, I thought you meant that those were false.

sorry if I also inadvertently threadjacked.

Good thing it's in the political forum. Although Tilted Paranoia is rather lonely these days.

With regards to the case itself, I think it is a weird enough case to preclude forming any theories about the motivation behind it. Especially since there has been a few changes in the story as originally described. Some police claim that FED wasnt carved, but written with a marker, and that his feet were touching the ground. So it's hard to know if there are any other corrections forthcoming or not.
In any case, while I am against any sort of legal action against Beck (at least of the criminal kind), I would hope that people would evaluate his actions without having someone take him up on his lunatic theories and do something. The things he says are egregious enough that I would hope rational people would distance themselves from him without having to wait for a looney to act on his "command."

New information from Rachel Maddow:
- Jerry Weaver said that the body was naked, his hands and feet bound with duct tape
- The census ID badge was taped to his head and shoulder area
So far there's no evidence that this is drug related, and several pieces of evidence that suggest this has something to do with the federal government.

It doesn't have to be drug related, it's most likely "outsider" or wrong place at the wrong time related. It seems like you want this to be some sort of validation for the trend in manufactured right-wing anti-Obama fear-mongering.

For your benefit, here's what really happened... he accidentally walked in on an Obama/Hitler/witch-doctor photoshop party while forgetting to wear his Sarah Palin tshirt and KKK head-sheet. When he failed the standard Glenn Beck "commies and negros we want to kill fact quiz", they grabbed the duct-tape... and that was all she wrote.

Right now the most probable and logical explanation is that he was killed because he was a census worker (hence the tags being taped to him and the FED message on his chest).

It is sad really. Good job Glenn and Michelle.

I guess we won't see you laying any blame whatsoever for the federal government taking too much power and growing larger than it should be?

This census worker wasn't taking anyone's power, dk. He was volunteering to carry out a Constitutional responsibility.

And let's not forget the likes of Rachel Maddow...


... and Keith Olbermann for inspiring the school-front murder of the anti-abortion protester.

first off, it is my contention that IF this murder was actually committed over a political issue, the individual(s) responsible crossed the line. The victim was indeed a volunteer and should not have been killed.

secondly, I said before (several times) that the continued encroachment by the feds was going to end up in bloodshed, warranted or not. It's only going to get worse from here on out.

Taking the census is not encroachment.

It sounds like your trigger finger is itching for a fight, Duane.

It's creepy and scary as hell.

and for the most part, I agree. requiring me to buy health insurance and threatening me with a year in prison is.

for the most part, it's not a fight i'm looking to start or even get in to, however, when I refuse to comply, those that come after me to enforce what I consider an unconstitutional law or policy better come prepared to kill me or die trying.

maybe something you should consider is how far would the government have to go before YOU decide that maybe it's time to fight back?

making me carry health insurance does not come close to crossing the line where I'll start opening fire on government officials

how about jailing you for it when you don't? if not, what is your line?

well considering I HAVE insurance, I won't get jailed, so it's not really an issue, is it?

fantastic, for you. I spend what extra money I have on my wifes insurance and medical expenses. this leaves nothing for me to get my own.

so where is your line?

I'll let you know when I've finished my manifesto

:rolleyes:

why is it that whenever someone is pressed on an issue like this, they immediately move to some sort of remark meant to be derogative?

because the truth is, I don't sit around worrying about government oppression all day. I'm sure there's I have a line, but it's unlikely to ever be crossed, so why waste my mental energy fretting about it all the time?

which almost guarantees you won't see it coming until it's too late. did you have this mindset from 2000-2008?

it sounds like that line is somewhere close to 'when they start lining up my family and friends for execution', or is that not far enough?

I never feared that the Bush administration was going to create a totalitarian state.


I'll let you know when that happens.

this thread brought to you with limited commercial interruptions by the Kinks

The facts:
• Census worker found strapped to a tree (not hung by the neck)
• "FED" carved into the flesh in the chest area
• census ID was duct taped to the head and neck area
• the area is known for being overrun with drug users
• anti-government sentiment is increasing, including recent instances of violence
• the intelligence community has been warning of an increase in "conservative terrorism"
• several recent anti-government or conservative terrorists have been demonstrated to watch Fox News
• Congresswoman Bachmann, on the Glenn Beck program on Fox News, gave insane and paranoid warnings against the census

Are you trying to imply Backmann, Beck and Fox News should face some kind of criminal charges?

Do we really want to go down that road? If someone's making direct threats on people that's one thing (there are already laws for this), but you can't start arresting people like Backmann and Beck for being stupid.

I can't stand either of these morons but they shouldn't be silenced by the government and I think that's what you're trying to get at without saying it.

I'm not an attorney and I'm not sure what specifically constitutes culpability in an instance like this. I'm not qualified to answer the legal question.

Legal issues aside, if this killing was in some way inspired by their hate and fear mongering, of course they do bear some responsibility. I know you to be a conservative, but I also think you're objective enough to recognize that when someone in a position of power or authority uses that power or authority to inspire hatred there's something wrong. Did you watch the Bachmann interview? Have you heard her speak at all?

First of all... Clay County Coroner Jim Trosper said Friday that the word FED was written with a felt-tip pen... look up the coroner's report. That fact, which you had wrong, doesn't change the nature of a hideous murder, it just takes an edge off the sensationalism you're hoping will gain momentum.

Another sensationalized fact that you had incorrect... the preliminary cause of death was asphyxiation. According to a Kentucky State Police statement, the body was hanging from a tree with a noose around the neck, yet it was in contact with the ground. Nothing is conclusive as to how he was killed.

The irrelevant hyperbole regarding anti-government sentiment and the POTENTIAL for "conservative terrorism" is propaganda plain and simple. Show me an example of conservative terrorism that doesn't include Timothy McVeigh and demonstrates an actual trend instead of individuals acting on their own. The report mentioning the POTENTIAL of conservative terrorism submitted by the dept of Homeland Security was challenged and formally retracted as unsubstantiated and irresponsible... unsubstantiated and irresponsible, just like the article in the OP tries to do. Take a murder story without supporting facts to inject a political statement based on nothing but innuendo and cliche's ... irresponsible propaganda.

Do you not believe that any political or ideological entity would attempt to influence public opinion by promoting fear against persons, organizations, or beliefs? What makes this administration any different than the others regarding political warfare? Sure, we'll leak some sensational unfounded statements about conservative terrorism and hateful religious white-folks to some willing partisans (useful idiots) in the media, unofficially nurture the intensity, and quickly pull back if it ever comes back on them (homeland security statement). It's still out there, like a person accused of child molestation, publicly tried in the media, then later proven innocent, but the damage is done... people still suspicious... false seeds are well planted... hurray for our side! ..right? Like stepping around an injured person on the sidewalk on your way to a human rights rally.

This is where the outrage should be... The enthusiasm I see here, and in the media, gleefully attempting to demonize citizens as POTENTIAL TERRORISTS with nothing more than feelings or baseless information at most. This is highly disturbing. To paraphrase... "when they came for me, there was no one left to speak on my behalf"... or to a lesser extent... something about rocks and glass houses or history repeating itself comes to mind. Continuing down this shared road of partisan hackery is leading us to dark destinations.

I saw that it was carved into his chest in an earlier article, but apparently they jumped the gun.
He was not hung as in lynched, that was what I was trying to say.
You can't say what is or is not irrelevant at this point because we don't know who is responsible. If it turns out that the person responsible murdered this census worker because of anti-government sentiment, it would be entirely relevant.

As for your pattern, here:
RICHARD POPLAWSKI, Pittsburgh Gunman, Kills 3 Police Officers
Scott Roeder, Abortion Doctor Murder Suspect, Warns Of More Violence
RICHARD POPLAWSKI, Pittsburgh Gunman, Kills 3 Police Officers
The New York Times > Log In
Jeff Hoard - The Idiocracy Index – Minuteman group arrested for murdering family - True/Slant
Jim D. Adkisson Charged In Tennessee Church Shooting That Killed 2
I've been asking this for a while, can you please name all of the liberal terrorists that killed people during the Bush administration?
If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and murders people like a duck...

..

I went ahead and bolded each instance's connection to conservatism because I was worried people might not see it. I guess you still missed it. Anyway, I'm not talking about an organized movement, because in most cases terrorism isn't the result of central organization. What I'm saying is there's a pattern emerging.

So, for the millionth time, can you please name all of the liberal terrorists that killed people during the Bush administration? Not "welfare people" you inexplicably hate, but real terrorists?

..

If there was an award for the most non-sensical, histrionic, misinformed post of all time, this would certainly take the cake.

It is amazing how you substitute your delusions for reality. First, let's point out the obvious that, if Willravel is right (which Im not sure he is), he is talking about politically motivated murder. Are you really implying that welfare recipients who have committed murder, have done so for political reasons?

That aside, whatever delusions you have about who the welfare recipients are and what they do, are just that: your delusions.

Welfare recipients are almost all female, whites are still the majority, and a very good chunk are rural. They are no more likely to commit murder than other people in similar backgrounds who are NOT on welfare.

There are so many liberal terrorists that you literally can't even name one that killed anyone during the Bush administration. I named 5 conservative terrorists that killed people in the past few months alone, and you can't come up with one name over an 8 year period.

how is he supposed to know the name of every welfare recipient? :shakehead:

That's because he's being all cutesy about it. There are terrorist groups with stated conservative agendas in this country. And when elections don't go their way, they start taking action.

Not by voter drives of course. But by forming groups like the Posse Commitatus. The Michigan Militia. When it comes down to the true calling of this country to rule by democracy, the first act of these cowards is to pick up a gun.

I reckon asphyxiation is SO much more preferable. That was nice of them.

ah nvm. Probably best I don't get in to a heated political discussion. :) Carry on.

WillRavel didn't ask for people with posters, he asked for actual murders

I suspect law enforcement agencies have more concern with the growing recruitment efforts taking place since the election by and among white supremacist groups - skinheads, neo-nazis, aryan nation, white militia groups, "christian" patriot groups, etc. - than with code pink or MoveOn.org...or even the ANSWER anarchists.

In fact, it goes back well before the last election.

The FBI released a report last year (under Bush) on the growing "White Supremacist Recruitment of Military Personnel Since 9/11" (report - pdf) .... the concern since the election is that these groups have been become much more vocal and expansive in their recruitment efforts

Michelle Malkin Obama condemns Muslim attack on Arkansas Army recruiters…not

Black islamic convert, anti american and anti-military kills two army recruiters.

Oh noes! Liberal terrorism!!!

I stand by my original point. You're still making a logical jump by imputing the violence to a political affinity.

Give it a rest. :rolleyes:

---------- Post added at 07:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:26 PM ----------

http://polizeros.com/wp-content/uplo...kill-bush1.JPG

Ok?

Not saying what people on either side are doing are right, but what I am saying is Don't be too quick to attribute something to a group you dislike.