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A presidential national address I think is needed at this point. He should call for a stop to these bs townhall meetings, and ask the media to stop pumping the bellows. Probably won't work but it couldn't hurt
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when someone DOES get hurt/killed, the Beck's and Limbaugh's of the conservative media will simply say "I can't be held responsible for the actions of deranged individuals" and then blame Obama for inciting riots with his socialist agendas.
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i put this in the pub thread about whos responsible for the various distortions on the question of health care, but it's just as relevant here given the turn in the conversation. have a look:
The Threat Is Real: Why Right-Wing Rage at Townhall Meetings Could Quickly Turn Deadly | Politics | AlterNet |
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I just heard on msnbc that there is a stand off in LA where a man who allegedly made threats against the whitehouse is holed up in an aparment building causing the police to evecuate the residents.
This is only gonna get worse. |
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Didn't see any liberal protesters in Vietnam after the US withdrew protesting the slaughter of hundreds of thousands of Vietnamese, did you? Don't see any liberal protesters going to N. Korea or Iran to protest the war postures those countries are taking to perhaps help reduce the risk of another war, do you? ---------- Post added at 07:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:38 PM ---------- Quote:
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LOL dude, you're a riot. It's like watching the hannity line of logic, it just falls flat on it's face. Apples to oranges and strawmen all over the place. At least put some effort in to making sense next time. |
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that should do it. |
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WHO | World Health Statistics 2009 Or was there another WHO publication you were looking for? WHO | Publications It's all available as free .pdf downloads. You can also find the statistics quoted above here, and honestly I think they're more relevant to the discussion. I copy and pasted the summaries, but you can find a wide range of statistics on everything from child mortality to obesity and nutrition to tobacco and alcohol consumption, if that's your thing. Out of curiosity, did you actually look before declaring this information unfindable? Again, according to the statistics provided by the international non-partisan body charged with monitoring this very issue, US citizens pay more per capita, and get less for it. These are facts, and are not subject to opinion. Finally, I need you to come right out and say it, because it's unclear to me. What questions precisely are you referring to that remain unanswered? |
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Here is a link to "food" data: Per capita food expenditures declining around the world. - Free Online Library Now according to the World Health Organization the life expectancy in Japan, highest, was 74.5. For the US the number was 70.0 Here is their definition of how they came up with the number, and the link: Quote:
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World Health Organization Disability Adjusted Healthy Life Expectancy Table (HALE) Here is a link to data from our National vital Statistics report from the CDC: http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr56/nvsr56_09.pdf Page 30 shows life expectancy of a person born in 2004 of 77.8, compared to the 70.0 number above and the 74.5 number for Japan. Then if we look in the data (realizing this is a nation with racial issues with blacks and Hispanics - legal and illegal) if we look at white people only, the life expectancy is - 78.3 compared to 69.5 for black males. So, what do you conclude from those bits of information? Then if we look at something like homicide, which has an impact on life expectancy. We find that the US had a homicide rate 3.3 times higher than Canada in 2000. Here is a link to a report: http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/85-002-...001011-eng.pdf What do you conclude from that? How does the WHO report adjust for these kinds of factors when coming to a conclusion about health care? You don't know, I ask questions. You take the report on blind faith, I challenge the report. You think I have a problem, I don't. I spend time connecting dots, do you? ---------- Post added at 08:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:52 PM ---------- Quote:
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WHO | The world health report So, I asked! Assuming others had already read the report, I thought someone could simply provide a link, gee.:shakehead: |
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A difference of 5.5 per 100 000 is just over half of a percentage point within the context of the overall statistic. Even if we completely discount homicides we still end up with an overall mortality rate of approximately 1074.5 per 100 000 (inflated from 108 per 1000 to correlate with the homicide statistic). This is still significantly higher than the figures for Canada (720 per 100 000) or the UK (790 per 100 000). Homicide rates have absolutely no relevance here. |
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On one post you are saying that the US healthcare system is wonderful because you don't want to live longer anyways, on the other you are saying that all statistics are wrong.... |
Just for the record, it now appears that Palin was for "death panels" before she was against them, given the proclamation she signed last year:
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Yet,....being the hypocritical hack that she is, and in the self-proclaimed new role as the voice for the "common, hard working, patriotic American", for some reason she feels to the need to keep stoking the fires and demonstrating her ignorance. |
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The homicide rate in 2010 for people born in 2009 is also close to zero. The homicide rate in 2011 for people born in 2009 is also close to zero. Etc. Etc. does your analysis take into consideration the cumulative impact of the difference between the two countries? Secondly, if we look at probabilities of homicide, from the source cited below it shows the lifetime odds of death in the US in 1996 by homicide is 1:169 or 592 in every 100,000. That is .6%. Here is a link to the data: Keep and Bear Arms - Gun Owners Home Page - 2nd Amendment Supporters I don't have comparable data for Canada, but if it is 1/3, the rate for Canada would be about .2%. One of the keys is when these homicides occur. compared to an 80 average year life span, if the homicides occur in the years of let's say 18 to 25 it would have a bigger impact than if they occurred 48 to 55. Again if we take the time to dig into the numbers there is clearly a difference between male and female life spans. Many factors contribute, one could be the difference in homicide rates between males and females. If, this is a factor- this factor would have nothing to do with health care. The same could be true in the comparison of Canada and the US You can dismiss homicide rates, I don't. I would want a detailed mathematical analysis before reaching the conclusion you have come to. ---------- Post added at 10:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:37 PM ---------- Quote:
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Its more than a "bad way to describe the issue"....it is willful and intentional fear-mongering. I have a better idea. Read the bill, or at least the section in question, and not just your IBD editorials and ignorant characterizations like PalinSpeak. Or keep defending her and the similar baseless yet emotionally laden provocative crap (socialism gone wild) from the right that is at the very heart of their opposition, as we have come to expect. |
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Data provided throughout this thread have shown how much the state spends on health. |
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There is no possible way this data could be weighted more strongly in favour of the US, and the US healthcare system still comes out looking worse. Quote:
Homicide rates are higher in the US than in Canada, and I'm pretty sure they're higher than in the UK as well. I'd be glad to discuss the reasons for that in a separate thread. None of this has any relevance whatsoever to a discussion regarding healthcare. Let's move on. Please. |
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Fewer hospital beds per capita is interesting but what about doctors per 10,000 people in the report. The US has 26. Canada has 19. Canada has 101 nurses the US has 94. But the US has 177 "other health care providers", Canada did not show a number. So what do you conclude from that? After reading the report I conclude that is takes an active imagination to conclude with any degree of real certainty that the health care system of any developed nation is materially better or worse than another. ---------- Post added at 03:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:09 PM ---------- Quote:
You can say "oh, you just made those numbers up", or "thats not relevant" or whatever - but again my point is I understand what I did and the assumptions I made. the WHO report is not clear and I challenge you to clearly explain how they made their adjustments to life expectancy and why. ---------- Post added at 03:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:20 PM ---------- Quote:
I like to think I am cutting edge ---------- Post added at 03:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:32 PM ---------- Quote:
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In fact, the US has higher infant mortality, and mortality for kids under 5, for a variety of reasons that go beyond neonatal care. The US does worse for mortality of children under 5 to pneumonia, for example. Quote:
Besides, this is based on the assumption that access to health care only affects when people die, not their quality of life when alive... Quote:
As for the infectious diseases part, look up years of life lost to communicable diseases, and you will see how death to infectious diseases affects the life expectancy rate. Oh, and death to infectious diseases in the US declined for most of the 20th century, but started going up again in 1980... Quote:
They made no adjustments to their life expectancy table. What you are doing is comparing different variables, why I don't know. The WHO has exactly the same number for life expectancy as that calculated in the US. The two things you are trying to compare is the data the WHO has on "Healthy life expectancy" and "life expectancy." They are different things, and so to claim that the WHO is trying to mess up the numbers only shows how little you know. As far as homicides go, look around a bit more. Soon you will find the mortality rate for injuries, which will include not only homicides, but any and all accidents. You will see that in the US the mortality rate for injuries is 47, for Canada 34 and for France 48. In other words, the difference in mortality rate to injuries is not enough to explain the difference in overall mortality rate for Canada, and should actually benefit the US in a comparison to France. |
I don't think this country owes me anything, but this is different.
I don't get how or why people are afraid of Universal Healthcare. What is it, ace(and others against it)? Is it not wanting to give tax dollars so that somebody gets a free ride to the hospital? I can understand that, each for his own. It's not my thing, but I get it. Concerning the "death panels". I don't know what else to call these, so we'll borrow the rhetoric. Really? You believe this shit? Have you no critical thought??? If one of your leaders tells you Obama wants to promote teenage unprotected sex, wouldn't you step back and wonder if they're just trying to get you riled up? Overall, what I'm trying to understand is, where do you get this information, and why do you trust it? And if it appears erroneous, like maybe the birther movement, why don't you denounce it as such? For example: I personally don't feel the American auto industry should get tax dollars. I'm not gonna disrupt a news conference or a town hall meeting. If I have real questions about it, I'll wait for a turn to speak. This town hall bullshit is frankly scary, if you believe Obama is the next Hitler then we really don't live in the same reality. Rb is right, there's no strategy except for shouting and making noise. I know you guys might have real concerns, but if you do, then voice them appropriately. Obama is not gonna fistfuck your babies and shoot your grandma in the head. |
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cost
vagueness in the totality of the 1,000+ page of the bill additional monstrous beauracracy |
well, the obvious question, powerclown, is whether you have the same kind of reaction to, say, current levels of military expenditure, which follow from the fact that the military has never quite gone off cold war status, which makes no sense except insofar as it benefits the patronage system which depends on this state of affairs, and which typically supports republicans.
you know, the center of republican-style military keynesianism. what's been in place since the reagan period. |
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well, if you pitch your objection to large amounts of money flowing through the federal government, it seems reasonable to wonder if it's consistent or not. so from that viewpoint, yes, it's obvious. wanna answer?
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As an aside, this seems like another one of those issues where one of the major stumbling blocks is party affiliation as personal identifier. It's a phenomenon I've noticed repeatedly in politics, and in American politics in particular.
Republicans as individuals feel they must oppose universal healthcare, because Republicans as a party oppose it. Republicans as a part oppose it seemingly because Democrats as a party favour it. And of course the same is true across the aisle, or however the Yanks phrase that. But the United States of America is the only developed nation that doesn't have universal healthcare to my knowledge, and all of the evidence that I'm able to find at least shows that you're worse for it. Republicans as a party and as individuals don't seem to be able to reconcile this with their mandated opposition. So we end up talking about tables and murders and horses instead. This discussion stopped being productive several pages ago. |
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"I want to die young, so I want a healthcare system that is less efficient and more costly" has to be the more insane, absurd defense of the American healthcare system I have ever heard. Quote:
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I would buy into this a lot easier if every single legal resident in the US including but not limited to our President and our other elected officials was on the same plan as the average Jane and Joe Blow down the street. Until then I believe this is nothing other than another government scam. |
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No I don't and neither does anyone else for that matter. That's the biggest problem with this whole mess. Nobody really has a "plan" but yet they was trying to push the non-plan to a vote before the break. What a bunch of baloney. And then to say everyone that disagrees with this approach is a terrorists or anti-American is bullshit. This "hurry and get something done before the American public figures out what happened" crap both parties played with the "bailout" isn't quite cutting it this time around and thats a good thing. If nothing else all this public outcry will make our elected officials slow down and actually debate something and come up with a good plan rather than something similiar to the bullshit we was all fed on the bailouts. I don't expect anything good to come out of the town hall meetings but maybe when the discussion moves back to the halls of Congress something good will come out of it. And think about it, if the insurance companies and drug companies are behind whatever it is they are contemplating is it really going to be that good for the taxpayer or consumer?
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