Palin: Duped or just not too smart?

[highthief]

Palin tricked by Quebec prank callers:

MONTREAL – A Quebec comedy duo notorious for prank calls to celebrities and heads of state has reached Sarah Palin, convincing the Republican vice-presidential nominee she was speaking with French President Nicolas Sarkozy.

In the roughly six-minute telephone interview released today, Palin and the pranksters known as the Masked Avengers discuss politics, pundits, and the perils of hunting with Vice-President Dick Cheney.

"We have such great respect for you, John McCain and I, we love you," Palin is heard to gush to comedian Marc-Antoine Audette, masquerading as Sarkozy.

Palin doesn't seem to realize she's being tricked until Audette tells her at the end of the interview.

"Oh, have we been pranked?" she says. Seconds later, Palin's aide can be heard before the line goes dead.

Throughout the conversation, Audette drops plenty of clues that something's amiss.

He identifies French singer and actor Johnny Hallyday as his special adviser to the U.S., singer Stef Carse as Canada's prime minister and Quebec comedian and radio host Richard Z. Sirois as the provincial premier.

Early in the conversation, the fake Sarkozy tells Palin one of his favourite pastimes is hunting.

"We should go hunting together," she offers. "We can have a lot of fun together while we're getting work done. We could kill two birds with one stone."

Audette then jokes that they shouldn't bring Cheney on the hunt, referring to the 2006 incident in which the vice-president shot-and-injured a friend while hunting quail.

"I'll be a careful shot," responds Palin, who praises Sarkozy throughout the call.

"I look forward to working with you and getting to meet you personally, and your beautiful wife, oh my goodness," she says.

"You've added a lot of energy to your country with that beautiful family of yours."

The well-known prankster duo of Audette and Sebastien Trudel Audette have also tricked Rolling Stones singer Mick Jagger, Bill Gates, and French president Jacques Chirac over the years.

The call to Chirac was rated by the BBC as one of the top 30 best moments in radio history of all time.

They've been popular on the Quebec comedy scene for a decade.

The Masked Avengers, who have a regular show on Montreal radio station CKOI, will air the full interview on the eve of the U.S. elections. It can also be heard in full on their website www.justiciers.tv .

TheStar.com | World | Quebec comics reach Palin with prank call

Another example of her not being very bright, or was she just suckered by experts? You'd think a VP Candidate would at least know who the Prime Minster of their closest neighbour and huge trading partner is.

[Daniel_]

If nothing else it shows that she's inward rather than ouward looking.

[Lucifer]

Rick Mercer did the same thing during the last election and ambushed Bush for a quickie interview and referred to Prime Minister Jean Poutine as one of Bush's biggest supporters:

Rick Mercer: Excuse me, Governor Bush, question from Canada!
George W. Bush: Yeah, what about it?
Rick Mercer: The Prime Minister of Canada, Jean Poutine, said he would not endorse any leader in this race, but now he believes you should be the man to lead the Free World into the 21st Century. What do you think?
George W. Bush: Well, I'm honored. He knows I'm a strong supporter of Free Trade and strong relations with our neighbors, and I look forward to working with him.

[Willravel]

Ambition does not require great intellect.

[dc_dux]

It is pretty funny to listen to her gush over "Sarkozy" especially when he mentioned her becoming president one day and that he could see Belgium from his house.

YouTube - Sarah Palin Got Pranked

YouTube - Sarah Palin Got Pranked

-----Added 1/11/2008 at 05 : 58 : 20-----
Statement from the Palin campaign:

"Gov. Palin received a phone call on Saturday from a French Canadian talk show host claiming to be French President Nicholas Sarkozy," emailed spokeswoman Tracey Schmitt. "Gov. Palin was mildly amused to learn that she had joined the ranks of heads of state, including President Sarkozy, and other celebrities in being targeted by these pranksters. C'est la vie."

[Charlatan]

Damn... she is so on message. I think she was trying to get Sarkozy's vote...

[Milnoc]

It's not the first time that Quebec radio prank callers managed to snare a political figure. We've been doing these type of calls for years. One show host was even calling local merchants for information, using only a handful of prerecorded sound bites for the entire conversation! It was very weird.

Of course, considering Palin's current position, this won't help the campaign all that much.

[monkeysugar]

Honestly now, how many of you who aren't Canadians would really know this stuff off the top of your head?

[highthief]

Originally Posted by monkeysugar

Honestly now, how many of you who aren't Canadians would really know this stuff off the top of your head?

Perhaps standards are lower in the US, but I'd expect anyone running for a top office in Canada to know the name of the leader of our closest neighbour and enormous trading partner. That was really the big giveaway.

[shakran]

to answer the OP question. . . Dumb as a brick, but by choice.

Her IQ probably isn't at the below-average stage, but, like our current president, she chooses to remain gloriously ignorant of the world around her. This is why she thought she was qualified to handle matters of foreign policy because she can see Russia from her state. By that logic, I can see the stars from my house, and am therefore an astronaut.

She can't even be bothered to read a newspaper, as evidenced when she could not come up with a single magazine or newspaper she reads when asked by Katie Couric. Even if I didn't read it, I could at least come up with "New York Times," "Washington Post," or perhaps, considering the source, "Highlights."

If you're genuinely not overly smart, I can have sympathy for you. If you're a moron by choice because you don't feel like informing yourself, then I have nothing but contempt for you - especially if you then have the gall to run for higher office.

[flstf]

In many ways I think Palin operates as if she is in another pageant. In her defense modern politics seems to be a series of photo ops and soundbites. Give her time and she will learn the standard answers and dodges to the usual questions. Also I doubt she will answer the phone again without vetting the caller. It remains to be seen if this stunt, her initial TV interviews and her support for the bridge to nowhere will dog her in the future.

[smooth]

shakran, I'm really surprised at your take on Palin's newspaper response given your knowledge about political maneuvering. No one really believes she doesn't ready *anything* do they? But if her campaign is rallying troops with the "elite media" bugle then it's damn hard to then say, well I read the New York Time and Washington Post every morning while eating my eggs and toast and a heap of trade articles for a few hours in the office each day.

I think what we saw was political inexperience. The lack of knowledge of the "correct" answer at the national level. It's much easier to appease a fairly homogeneous population. But when you know that there are unknown constituents out there, and that whatever your answer is going to be is going to be rebroadcasted to people you don't know what angers or appeases them, and the so-called knowledge pool running the campaign are telling you to keep unvetted answers to yourself, then you get someone who is unable to muster a rational response regardless of intelligence.

She was overprepped in her debates and interviews. The few times she "gaffed" (vs. not coming up with a suitable answer) were because on follow-ups she started to use her reasoning abilities and came up with answers that were internally consistent but inconsistent with her campaign's position. The campaign was the inconsistent entity, however, probably because he had to try and differentiate himself from both Bush and Obama as difficult as it is to do both at the same time consistently. What we saw is that when the two of them dropped the charade, they started to be appreciated for what they were. McCain's brand and Palin's accessability are huge political assets. They might lose millions of the more divisive identity politics subscribers, which would likely cost them votes necessary to win until they can carve into the moderate issues, but the votes they kept would be Obama-ish voters...ones that are excited and willing to stand at the polls and rallies for hours upon hours. In that sense, I think they would have deeper and stronger support, but they'd need to broaden it to win a national election in the future (in theory; in reality, I can't see McCain running for president again).

[guyy]

It's pretty easy to see Canada from many parts of Alaska. Harper is a western conservative, kind of like Palin herself. She should know that he's the PM.

I don't think she's that intelligent, but how smart do you have to be to know a few things about the outside world. What's most disconcerting is that she seems to lack even the slightest curiosity about the world outside of her conservative bubble.

On the other hand, i think people get taken in by these things just by being polite. What if it were Sarko? Do you point out all his errors? Do you say "Hey, that's crazy talk!"

[shakran]

Originally Posted by smooth

shakran, I'm really surprised at your take on Palin's newspaper response given your knowledge about political maneuvering. No one really believes she doesn't ready *anything* do they? But if her campaign is rallying troops with the "elite media" bugle then it's damn hard to then say, well I read the New York Time and Washington Post every morning while eating my eggs and toast and a heap of trade articles for a few hours in the office each day.

So. . .What you seem to be saying is "Sarah Palin does indeed read newspapers, but doesn't want to admit which ones they are."

This brings two possibilities - - that she is as you say reading the "elite media" news sources, which means she's lying when she talks about her disdain for the media elite, or that she is reading some sort of newspaper (the Enquirer, perhaps?) that she is embarrassed to admit to.

I personally find it more likely that she doesn't read newspapers. Given her glorious ignorance on . . well. . just about everything except moose hunting and beer, I can't imagine that she's taking in much data from anywhere.

BTW I don't buy the "overprepped" argument. No preparation team worth anything would tell her to try to convince people that seeing a country from a vast distance means you're ready to conduct high-level negotiations with it.

[smooth]

That is what I'm saying, but let's not start to throw all of my comments into the same bag.
Of course she's strapping the issue of the "elite media" to appeal to their largest constituency. It also accounts for her flubs by placing the responsibility of the gotcha questions on them rather than her inability to answer them. I'm sure she believes that there are media elements that have it in for her and republicans. I'm also sure that she doesn't see Sean Hannity as one of those people.

Simply because you think that certain media elements have it out for you or your political ideals, doesn't mean there aren't business articles in there your aids will place on your desk each morning. I doubt that most politicians would classify the Wall Street Journal as one of those media elite sources, but I doubt that a bunch of working class fokes who have been chanting "media elite, media elite,, media elite" would appreciate a washington outsider saying that she closely follows what happens on in the business world by reading the WSJ every morning. That's my point, I'm not sure why you construct what I see as false dilemmas. Either she reads all media or no media? No, she reads media that could be construed by her constituents as not making much sense given what they were told to believe about the media in general. She is a governor of a huge energy state with deep, convoluted business interconnections. It's just silly to think she doesn't tune in to the business news and is instead zipping around shooting moose.

When the argument is that you're just a regular person who enjoys the wilderness because the people you want voting for you want anything but a politician, then it's not a good idea to admit that you read anything at all other than Guns and Ammo. Of course, if you say you read Guns and Ammo, then the professional politicians and media pundits WILL castigate you for being a bumpkin that doesn't know jack shit. It makes perfect sense to me that two vying sides would use little snippets like this as if they meant something, but it doesn't make sense when intelligent people like yourself operating on a slower messaging board and have the ability to sift info and play with shades of gray would do the same thing.

I know Palin likes to hunt, I know Cheney likes to hunt, I suspect Kennedies love to hunt, I know oregon separatists who like to hunt deer, I know people from montana who like to hunt deer, I know lifelong democrats who's entire family have voted straight ticket for generations but they run hunting expeditions. So basically what I can conclude from this is that hunting deer tells me exactly shitall about someone's politics.

I'm not sure I follow your logic on the overprepped point.
Because she answered the Russia comment with total lunacy from our standpoint she must not have been overprepped?
When I use that term, I'm thinking in my head that they took a pretty sharp woman and told her a few key phrases. But they also restrained her from talking about certain things and didn't trust her to use her reasoning abilities. When she used her own reasoning skills, she gave the "wrong" answer on the Pakistan situation. But my point was that she gave the logically coherent answer, just not the one the McCain campaign was advocating. But it's probably true that she doesn't have heaps of critical thinking skills, but that's not what intelligence is always about.

The SNL crew said she did her segments in one shot, and it was perfect. She evidently took a week's prep and gave the RNC speech to millions of viewers and tens of thousands of live crowd. She dazzles people when they let her off the leash. That's fact regardless of what people think of her qualifications. Her qualifications are in question, not her abilities. If people start arguing that she never will be qualified for Presidency then they are underestimating her abilities, imo.

So she's obviously got a sharpness to her that many or possibly most don't have. I was top in my class in sociology but I don't dare go out and stand with my wife when she sings a classical piece in German in front of a full music hall. I don't do it myself, but I've watched friends field dress hunts and I was impressed.

I guess the point is that whereas you take her ignorance at face value, I interpret these politicians' portrayals of ignorance to say more about what they think of the people watching them rather than what it says about them personally.

As for the original topic, I don't think many people in her situation responding here would have done much differently once you assume your aid would have vetted the caller. The really funny part was when he asked her about Nalin Palin. But it was only funny because I read my Goffman. It's funny to my friends on the floor because they think she's a dumbfuck. But of course, when someone says something you have no idea what they're saying, but they are a) foreign with an accent and b) a high level official, and c) you don't want to make them feel uncomfortable and, d) there's very little chance Palin follows Hustler releases, then it's really got nothing to do with her intelligence when she just goes along with what the speaker is saying.

When your boss says some weird shit to you, I hope you guys hold your tongues and laugh behind his back at the water cooler rather than saying, gee Tom are you losing your mind? or I can't understand your accent...or anything other than nodding politely and moving on which is what she did.

[shakran]

Originally Posted by smooth

That is what I'm saying, but let's not start to throw all of my comments into the same bag.
Of course she's strapping the issue of the "elite media" to appeal to their largest constituency.

Then say what W said. It worked for him. "I don't read newspapers because I want to get my news straight, not filtered by the biased media." It will still make her look like a half-witted moron, but at least it'll be the kind of moron that her base likes.

I doubt that a bunch of working class fokes who have been chanting "media elite, media elite,, media elite" would appreciate a washington outsider saying that she closely follows what happens on in the business world by reading the WSJ every morning.

Why? Wall Street is in New York, not DC. And that doesn't even touch on my inherent objection to glorifying and encouraging ignorance. "I don't want my leader to know what influential publications have to say (whether she agrees with them or not is another issue entirely - a president may not agree with bin Laden but I damn sure want him to know what the terrorist is saying). I want my leader to read nothing at all and hold to her own narrow world view no matter what the external evidence," is what you seem to think the republican base believes. You may actually be right about that - especially if you believe that the current republican base is in fact the neo-con party.

Either she reads all media or no media?

No, either she can recall the name of one media publication that she reads, or she cannot. If she can't she's either senile quite early, or lying.

No, she reads media that could be construed by her constituents as not making much sense given what they were told to believe about the media in general.

So she's already hiding her activities, and she hasn't even gotten to Wasington yet? That's less than stellar.

When the argument is that you're just a regular person who enjoys the wilderness because the people you want voting for you want anything but a politician, then it's not a good idea to admit that you read anything at all other than Guns and Ammo.

I completely disagree. You do not have to be a back woods "redneck" who only likes huntin' and fishin' an' hockey mommin' in order to be a non-politician. This carefully crafted image (and that's just what it is, she can't even reliably hold up the folksy accent) is just that. An image. I.e, she's just another politician trying to make us think she's somethin' she's not donchaknow.

but it doesn't make sense when intelligent people like yourself operating on a slower messaging board and have the ability to sift info and play with shades of gray would do the same thing.

"I read newspapers." "I don't know which newspapers those are."

Those two statements mean either:

I really don't read newspapers

I read newspapers but am too stupid to recall even the name of the newspaper that I read.

I read newspapers and know exactly what they are but in order to protect my carefully crafted political image as a non-politician I'm going to lie and claim I don't know what they are. I realize this ignores the fact that I will look like an absolute moron when I can't remember the name of something I supposedly read routinely, but I feel it's better to appear to be an idiot than to appear to be the politician that I am.

Because she answered the Russia comment with total lunacy from our standpoint she must not have been overprepped?

No, she was probably overprepped, for her ability level. One does not attempt to teach a caribou how to do quadratic equations, and one should not attempt to teach Palin how to appear intelligent when discussing matters of state.

When I use that term, I'm thinking in my head that they took a pretty sharp woman

No, sorry, a reasonably sharp woman would not feel she was qualified for foreign relations duty because she can see russia from her home.

A reasonably sharp woman who did not feel she was qualified for those reasons, would also not believe that the American public would possibly think her qualified if she made those claims. The woman is dumb as a brick. Now, whether that's IQ dumb, or willfully stupid, can be argued. Personally I think she's willfully stupid - - that is, she has the mental capacity to learn and comprehend basic concepts such as "it takes more than looking at the shore of an entire nation to understand how that nation works" but has willfully chose to remain gloriously ignorant on such concepts.

But it's probably true that she doesn't have heaps of critical thinking skills, but that's not what intelligence is always about.

We are talking about a potential president of the united states here, not the manager of the Wasilla Walmart. Critical thinking skills are an absolute requirement for the job. We have seen what the lack thereof gets us. Just look at W's record - -the other politician who doesn't read.

The SNL crew said she did her segments in one shot, and it was perfect.

Wow. She can read cue cards. Big. Deal. I can do that too, but that doesn't qualify me for higher office.

She evidently took a week's prep and gave the RNC speech to millions of viewers and tens of thousands of live crowd. She dazzles people when they let her off the leash.

She dazzled the mouth-breathing subpopulace that looked for pizazz and flare, but didn't give a crap about substance. She said /nothing/ substantive in that speech. Nothing.

As for the original topic, I don't think many people in her situation responding here would have done much differently once you assume your aid would have vetted the caller.

MA: I want to be sure, I don't quite understand the phenomenon "Joe the plumber" - that's not your husband, right?
Palin: That's not my husband, but he's a normal American who just works hard and doesn't want government to take his money.
MA: Yes, yes, I understand, we have the equivalent of Joe the Plumber in France, it's called Marcel, the guy with bread under his armpit
Palin: Right, that's what it's all about. It's the middle class, and government needing to work with them. You're a very good example for us here.

Assuming I didn't catch the Steph Carse (the singer who's magically become PM of Canada, you know, the other country Palin can see from her state and must therefore know all about) or the part where he said Richard Sirois, the Canadian comedian, was Prime Minister of Quebec (which must be a surprise to jean Charest), I think once he started talking about guys with bread under their armpits I'd have figured out something was fishy.

When your boss says some weird shit to you, I hope you guys hold your tongues and laugh behind his back at the water cooler rather than saying, gee Tom are you losing your mind? or I can't understand your accent...or anything other than nodding politely and moving on which is what she did.

No, we don't. We're mature and intelligent people, and when the boss wishes to communicate something with us, we want to be sure we understand what it is that the boss wants, and so we get clarification if we do not understand it the first time.

[smooth]

This is not about rational things your boss says that you're trying to clarify. If your boss starts talking about bread under his armpits I don't know what you would do, to be honest. Personally, I would smile and nod and get the fuck out of his office. If he was speaking with a foreign accent on a transnational phone line, I'd be more likely to think I misheard him...and I certainly wouldn't stop and say, "did you just say bread and armpits". I would just hear something entirely different and more sane (which is what the brain does when sent bizarre information) or move along to the next topic.

Anyway, whatever, this conversation has taken a bizarre cartwheel because I've not got any interest in defending Palin.
I was just surprised that someone who works in the media would feel confident assessing someone's mental abilities from media presentations; and even more complicated by the fact that the current Republican party seems to believe it's base appreciates close-mindedness and eschews complexities.

It's obvious to me that she was ignorant of foreign affairs, but I don't know how you then move toward an assessment of one's intellectual abilities based off lack of information. She is a high level politician, she has to deal with cutthroat corporations, and she has demonstrated social intelligence to me.

I am disgusted by many of her policies, I'm disgusted by this appeal to ignorance as qualification, but I'm equally disgusted by otherwise intelligent people who seem to confuse the real with the portrayed and then move from there into posts like yours over a crank call.

Smart people get taken by crank calls all the time...or they wouldn't work and they wouldn't be funny.
If you really think she's just dumb, then this crank call isn't funny at all it's just mean.

[asaris]

Yeah, I can't really blame Palin for this. It does show a lack of judgement on the part of her handlers, though. I think it was a bad idea to let her take this phone call in the first place. Eh, whatever, it's kinda moot now.

[shakran]

Originally Posted by smooth

She is a high level politician, she has to deal with cutthroat corporations.

Well, that's just it. She's a high-level politician who has failed utterly to demonstrate any knowledge of high-level. . .or even grade-school level politics. Just because you're voted into office by the Alaskans (who I will point out just voted in a convicted felon to represent them in the Senate) does not automatically make you a wise and capable executive.

No one who, with a straight face, says that seeing Russia qualifies you to deal with foreign policy, or who says that being Mayor of Wasilla, population 5,500 when a tourbus is in town, gives you the executive experience necessary to be president, or who thinks the Vice President is in charge of the Senate and can "make policies there if she feels like it," and all the other demonstrations of ignorance and stupidity, willful or genetic, that Palin has exhibited just in the few short months she's been in this campaign, can possibly be taken seriously or considered intelligent by a rational observer.

[abaya]

Can you all really take pity on someone who wanted to be VP but didn't know which countries were in NAFTA (!!!), or that Africa is not a continent (!!!!!)? Please. I hope she goes down in TOTAL FLAMES from this day forward. What a fucking tool.

YouTube - Fox News: Palin didn't know Africa was a continent

YouTube - Fox News: Palin didn't know Africa was a continent

[Nimetic]

I sorta thought that any one mess-up could be a mistake. But taken together it looks like she's fairly hopeless.

[highthief]

Originally Posted by Nimetic

I sorta thought that any one mess-up could be a mistake. But taken together it looks like she's fairly hopeless.

I think that's it in a nutshell. It wasn't that a couple of Quebec comics fooled her on the phone - it's all the other stuff added up (along with the Sarkozy call) that really makes her look like a numpty.

[flstf]

There must be more to this story. I cannot believe that a college graduate, governor and former mayor does not know the countries in North America or that Africa is a continent and not a country. These are things one learns in grade school geography class.

[Charlatan]

hasn't it been 15 minutes already?

[abaya]

Originally Posted by flstf

There must be more to this story. I cannot believe that a college graduate, governor and former mayor does not know the countries in North America or that Africa is a continent and not a country.

In American politics, those things don't mean a damn thing with regards to education/intelligence. I believe it.

Have you read the 7-chapter Newsweek article?

[ottopilot]

There is a sickness here.

[abaya]

Originally Posted by ottopilot

There is a sickness here.

There are any number of ways in which I could interpret your statement. Sickness with Palin? Sickness with TFP? Sickness with the GOP? Sickness with American politics? It would be helpful if you could clarify.

[dc_dux]

Originally Posted by ottopilot

There is a sickness here.

What sickness?

I think there is a natural curiosity about the charges alleged against Palin coming from inside the campaign....not from partisan Democrats. There was post-election sniping between the Kerrry and Edwards staff in 04, but nothing like this.

Combine it with her performances in her limited interactions with the press and its frightening to some that Palin could have been a heartbeat away from becoming the most powerful person in the world. The general consensus among many conservative pundits was that she was in no way ready, at the national policy level, to be in such a position.

Can she become a force within the party at the national level? Probably so because she obviously has appeal to the social conservative base.

Whether she can ever appeal to the party insiders or the broader voting public is a different story. First impressions are hard to overcome.

[abaya]

Otto, have you read the 7-part Newsweek coverage of both campaigns? I'd be interested in hearing your take after reading that.

[ottopilot]

Originally Posted by abaya

Otto, have you read the 7-part Newsweek coverage of both campaigns? I'd be interested in hearing your take after reading that.

Are you an angry person? You just sound so explicitly hateful and angry. What makes you such a hater?

[shakran]

Originally Posted by ottopilot

Are you an angry person? You just sound so explicitly hateful and angry. What makes you such a hater?

Would you mind explaining to us what in the hell you read that made you think this? I've seen you post two "sniper" posts in this thread that imparted no information but appear overly snarky. I'd like you to start elaborating on them to provide hooks for discussion.

[aceventura3]

From the McCain interview with Leno:

Leno: Now, these aides that were criticizing her -- and I think everyone agrees there were Republican aides who were criticizing her. I know you wouldn't go for that. I know you're an old soul. You don't let people talk -- but why?
McCain: One -- these things happen in campaigns too. I think I have at least a thousand, quote, top advisors. "A top advisor said" -- people I've never even heard of, much less a, quote, top advisor or a high-ranking Republican official. It's -- these things go on in campaigns, and you

Leno: Why don't we just move on.
McCain: I'm just very proud to have had Sarah Palin and her family, a wonderful family.

McCain on Leno's Tonight Show: interview video / transcript | read my mind

If these "top aids" don't have the courage to make their statements in public they are cowards and lack character. People make mistakes, Obama visited 57 states, Bidden talked about FDR's comments on TV and didn't know how many letters are in jobs - in most cases people have a chuckle and move on. People hate Palin in a manner that is not normal, I don't get it. But, I really like the fact that she is not affraid to stand strong, face her critics and give it back with a smile. She is one of my heroes.

[dc_dux]

Originally Posted by aceventura3

If these "top aids" don't have the courage to make their statements in public they are cowards and lack character. People make mistakes, Obama visited 57 states, Bidden talked about FDR's comments on TV and didn't know how many letters are in jobs - in most cases people have a chuckle and move on. People hate Palin in a manner that is not normal, I don't get it. But, I really like the fact that she is not affraid to stand strong, face her critics and give it back with a smile. She is one of my heroes.

ace....did you really expect McCain to throw Palin under the bus on the Tonight Show and admit that he made a terrible choice, as most polls suggested?

As to anonymous sources from within her own party, I would tell Palin ....welcome to national politics.

When you make statements like you have foreign policy experience because you can see Russia from your shores or that as VP you would take a greater policymaking role in Congress or that First Amendment rights of candidates are endangered by an aggressive press...you should expect scrutiny and ridicule. Comments like those came right from the horses mouth...not anonymous sources.

I dont see the "hatred" you see, rather I see many in her party admitting that she was unprepared at a policy level for such a high national political office.

The cultural conservative base of the party obviously sees her as a potential leader, although I havent heard many who hold her to the level of hero worship.

As a partisan, I wish her well because there is nothing to suggest that she can appeal to swing voters in the future.

[aceventura3]

Originally Posted by dc_dux

ace....did you really expect McCain to throw Palin under the bus on the Tonight Show and admit that he made a terrible choice, as mot post suggested?

No. But, I I do think McCain is political and if he is aware a the "leakers" and the "leaks" help his reputation he would not act internally to stop the "leaks". That is just my gut feeling, and as you know I generally don't trust people who put politics first.

As to anonymous sources from within her own party, I would tell Palin ....welcome to national politics.

I think she is handling this like a pro. She is not hiding, she is not being negative but she is calling it like she sees it. I like that.

I dont see the "hatred" you see, rather I see many in her party admitting that she was unprepared at a policy level for such a high national political office.

I understand your view. However, I would add that Obama was not ready when he first announced either. I doubt anyone is "ready" to run for President unless they have done it before. People bring their strengths to the table and compensate for their weaknesses, everyone has some.

The cultural conservative base of the party obviously sees her as a potential leader, although I havent heard many who hold her to the level of hero worship.

I don't "worship" people. I have heroes, people that I hold in high regard because of a character trait or accomplishment. I have many including a person like my step-grandfather who never went to school, worked with his hands his entire life and raised my father to be a person of similar character and in turn impacted the person I am and the person my son will be. I have seen many people like my grandfather, they are my heroes too. I assuming you understand what is meant by "hero" (in a manner less than "worship"), even if you don't like Palin she has many character traits and accomplishments that make her worthy of being someone's hero.

As a partisan, I wish her well because there is nothing to suggest that she can appeal to swing voters in the future.

I have a feeling that she will be a content person regardless of the course her political career takes.

[dc_dux]

I have a feeling that the Republican establishment will be more content if she just goes away.

[Frosstbyte]

Originally Posted by aceventura3

If these "top aids" don't have the courage to make their statements in public they are cowards and lack character. People make mistakes, Obama visited 57 states, Bidden talked about FDR's comments on TV and didn't know how many letters are in jobs - in most cases people have a chuckle and move on. People hate Palin in a manner that is not normal, I don't get it. But, I really like the fact that she is not affraid to stand strong, face her critics and give it back with a smile. She is one of my heroes.

Why is one of your heroes someone who doesn't have a meaningful higher education, doesn't have any grasp of the world we live in and doesn't hold her own family to the standards she'd like to impose on the rest of the country? That sounds snarky, and, to some extent, I guess it is, but I'm honestly curious why Sarah Palin is someone you'd call a hero.

Biden, McCain and Obama all misspoke during their campaigns and said silly things that now sound funny. No one questions whether Biden or Obama or McCain actually think or believe the things they said that sound really funny in retrospect. Sarah Palin said and believed totally ridiculous stuff. She said that she could see Russia and that it counted as solid foreign policy experience. She didn't know Africa was a continent. She didn't know what the VP does. She doesn't understand, as far as I can tell, any part of the constitution or its provisions.

I think she has a lucrative career ahead of her in the book-writing department and, after her stint as governor is over, as a conservative talking head. I have no doubt she'd make enough money to never have to worry about having a $150k shopping trip again, and, you know, I have no problem with that (nor would I have any reason to).

But if the republican party ever puts her up for VP or president again, they will lose my vote automatically and immediately. She is not qualified to hold high executive office in this country, and I think the polls of September, October and the election results speak volumes to back up the thought that the American public doesn't think she is, either.

On a side note: now I need to find a new avatar. Damn it all!

[smooth]

what do you mean she "doesn't have a meaningful higher education?" That seems incorrect and inflammatory.
it's also not a requirement for presidency, even if it was true.
she certainly seems to hold her family to the same standards as she wants for the country. I'm not sure what you mean by that other than her pregnant daughter, which is the context I see this brought up within, who did not seek or obtain an abortion. what other values are you concerned over?

she does seem to have a grasp of her world, which is what most people walking around have. very few people have the time or want to expend the effort of being experts in foreign policy...and no one can be an expert in all things anymore. Even Obama just held the basic blocks of global relations and then relies upon others for their foreign policy expertise.


I agree with ace about the fact that people often are not as prepared as we expect them to be when they run for office.
the difference between palin and obama in this regard, however, is that the public had nearly two years to weigh the benefits of obama against his deficiencies and we never had that opportunity with Palin. and the VP doesn't really get vetted at the same level as president anyway.

the same thing could have happened to McCain. had the fiscal crisis happened a year ago, he would have had a year to rework his positions and the voters would have had more opportunity to balance his lack of expertise with what he was willing to bring to the table.

[Frosstbyte]

Palin: Hawaii Pacific College-left after 1 semester, North Idaho community college-2 semesters as general studies, U of Idaho-2 semesters, Matanuska-Susitna community college-one term, U of Idaho-3 semesters ending in a degree in communications-journalism

McCain: US Naval Academy, captain US Navy

Obama: Occidental College-2 years; Columbia University-2 years, polisci (international relations); Harvard School of Law-graduate, Law Review

Biden: University of Delaware: history/polisci; Syracuse School of Law

Now, neither McCain or Biden have clean, sparkly records from their respective universities (though I can't find any major blemishes on Obama's), but I think it's pretty apparent that one of these is not like the others. And sure, it's not a requirement to become president, but it does reflect on one's level of knowledge and ability to think critically. And, in this campaign, I think the prestige of their alma maters followed pretty closely with an objective evaluation of the various candidate's intelligence and knowledge.

As for her daughter, yeah, I do hold that against her. If your entire image is "I am a good, evangelical Christian woman with a good, evangelical Christian household" and your 17 year old is unmarried and pregnant, that undermines your image and message pretty significantly. Sure, I guess it's fine that she didn't have an abortion and that's consistent, but she's not really upholding anything else she stands for on that note.

I didn't call Obama a scholar in politics and international affairs, but I really think it's dishonest to say that he doesn't seem to have a much better grasp of international and national affairs than she does. Again, Obama, McCain and Biden misspoke in ways that ended up being funny. Palin truly believed the things she said about the country and the world which weren't even close to true. I think that says a lot about the difference between the three of them and her.

[roachboy]

so it turns out that one of my favorite palin-isms was a hoax.
she apparently did not say that africa was a country.

good hoax, though.
gots to hand it to these gentlemen:

A Senior Fellow at the Institute of Nonexistence
By RICHARD PÉREZ-PEÑA

It was among the juicier post-election recriminations: Fox News Channel quoted an unnamed McCain campaign figure as saying that Sarah Palin did not know that Africa was a continent.

Who would say such a thing? On Monday the answer popped up on a blog and popped out of the mouth of David Shuster, an MSNBC anchor. “Turns out it was Martin Eisenstadt, a McCain policy adviser, who has come forward today to identify himself as the source of the leaks,” Mr. Shuster said.

Trouble is, Martin Eisenstadt doesn’t exist. His blog does, but it’s a put-on. The think tank where he is a senior fellow — the Harding Institute for Freedom and Democracy — is just a Web site. The TV clips of him on YouTube are fakes.

And the claim of credit for the Africa anecdote is just the latest ruse by Eisenstadt, who turns out to be a very elaborate hoax that has been going on for months. MSNBC, which quickly corrected the mistake, has plenty of company in being taken in by an Eisenstadt hoax, including The New Republic and The Los Angeles Times.

Now a pair of obscure filmmakers say they created Martin Eisenstadt to help them pitch a TV show based on the character. But under the circumstances, why should anyone believe a word they say?

“That’s a really good question,” one of the two, Eitan Gorlin, said with a laugh.

(For what it’s worth, another reporter for The New York Times is an acquaintance of Mr. Gorlin and vouches for his identity, and Mr. Gorlin is indeed “Mr. Eisenstadt” in those videos. He and his partner in deception, Dan Mirvish, have entries on the Internet Movie Database, imdb.com. But still. ...)

They say the blame lies not with them but with shoddiness in the traditional news media and especially the blogosphere.

“With the 24-hour news cycle they rush into anything they can find,” said Mr. Mirvish, 40.

Mr. Gorlin, 39, argued that Eisenstadt was no more of a joke than half the bloggers or political commentators on the Internet or television.

An MSNBC spokesman, Jeremy Gaines, explained the network’s misstep by saying someone in the newsroom received the Palin item in an e-mail message from a colleague and assumed it had been checked out. “It had not been vetted,” he said. “It should not have made air.”

But most of Eisenstadt’s victims have been bloggers, a reflection of the sloppy speed at which any tidbit, no matter how specious, can bounce around the Internet. And they fell for the fake material despite ample warnings online about Eisenstadt, including the work of one blogger who spent months chasing the illusion around cyberspace, trying to debunk it.

The hoax began a year ago with short videos of a parking valet character, who Mr. Gorlin and Mr. Mirvish said was the original idea for a TV series.

Soon there were videos showing him driving a car while spouting offensive, opinionated nonsense in praise of Rudolph W. Giuliani. Those videos attracted tens of thousands of Internet hits and a bit of news media attention.

When Mr. Giuliani dropped out of the presidential race, the character morphed into Eisenstadt, a parody of a blowhard cable news commentator.

Mr. Gorlin said they chose the name because “all the neocons in the Bush administration had Jewish last names and Christian first names.”

Eisenstadt became an adviser to Senator John McCain and got a blog, updated occasionally with comments claiming insider knowledge, and other bloggers began quoting and linking to it. It mixed weird-but-true items with false ones that were plausible, if just barely.

The inventors fabricated the Harding Institute, named for one of the most scorned presidents, and made Eisenstadt a senior fellow.

It didn’t hurt that a man named Michael Eisenstadt is a real expert at the Washington Institute for Near East Policy and is quoted in the mainstream media. The real Mr. Eisenstadt said in an interview that he was only dimly aware of the fake one, and that his main concern was that people understood that “I had nothing to do with this.”

Before long Mr. Gorlin and Mr. Mirvish had produced a short documentary on Martin Eisenstadt, supposedly for the BBC, posted in several parts on YouTube.

In June they produced what appeared to be an interview with Eisenstadt on Iraqi television promoting construction of a casino in the Green Zone in Baghdad. Then they sent out a news release in which he apologized. Outraged Iraqi bloggers protested the casino idea.

Among the Americans who took that bait was Jonathan Stein, a reporter for Mother Jones. A few hours later Mr. Stein put up a post on the magazine’s political blog, with the title “Hoax Alert: Bizarre ‘McCain Adviser’ Too Good to Be True,” and explained how he had been fooled.

In July, after the McCain campaign compared Senator Barack Obama to Paris Hilton, the Eisenstadt blog said “the phone was burning off the hook” at McCain headquarters, with angry calls from Ms. Hilton’s grandfather and others. A Los Angeles Times political blog, among others, retold the story, citing Eisenstadt by name and linking to his blog.

Last month Eisenstadt blogged that Samuel J. Wurzelbacher, Joe the Plumber, was closely related to Charles Keating, the disgraced former savings and loan chief. It wasn’t true, but other bloggers ran with it.

Among those taken in by Monday’s confession about the Palin Africa report was The New Republic’s political blog. Later the magazine posted this atop the entry: “Oy — this would appear to be a hoax. Apologies.”

But the truth was out for all to see long before the big-name take-downs. For months sourcewatch.org has identified Martin Eisenstadt as a hoax. When Mr. Stein was the victim, he blogged that “there was enough info on the Web that I should have sussed this thing out.”

And then there is William K. Wolfrum, a blogger who has played Javert to Eisenstadt’s Valjean, tracking the hoaxster across cyberspace and repeatedly debunking his claims. Mr. Gorlin and Mr. Mirvish praised his tenacity, adding that the news media could learn something from him.

“As if there isn’t enough misinformation on this election, it was shocking to see so much time wasted on things that didn’t exist,” Mr. Wolfrum said in an interview.

And how can we know that Mr. Wolfrum is real and not part of the hoax?

Long pause. “Yeah, that’s a tough one.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/13/ar...13hoax.html?hp

[Frosstbyte]

I guess delete that part from my above posts. WELL PLAYED GENTLEMEN! Doesn't it say something that no one was really surprised when this came out, though? I think it does.