Obama's citizenship brought into question...
 

A friend of mine has informed me that Obama's citizenship has been brought into question recently. From what I gather, the two things Obama has refused to release are his birth certificate and his college transcripts.

Apparently Philip J. Berg, former deputy attorney general of Pennsylvania, is claiming that Obama's grandmother admitted that he was born in Kenya, thus making him ineligible for presidency.

I'm admittedly not as up on politics as some, but this story is intriguing to me.

You can listen to an interview with Philip J. Berg as heard on Michael Savage's show at the following site: Phil Berg discusses lawsuit against Obama.

I listened, and I gather Savage tends to overreact and is strongly conservative, but Mr. Berg does seem to have an interesting case.

Do you think Philip Berg's case is valid, or is it likely just a conspiracy theory that is likely to drag Obama through the mud?

Conspiracy case. Obama has released his birth certificate, I believe there's scans of it floating around on the internet.

My general mantra has been "If Obama is accused of something, it's more likely to be true of McCain." That's true in this case as well. McCain was born in the canal zone, and there's a plausible (though, I think, ultimately unsuccessful) argument to be made that the way in which he gained citizenship does not make him a natural born citizen.

Your friend was wrong and its pretty sad that you didn't do a simple google search to verify the veracity of your claims.

Obama was born in Hawaii. Hawaii was a state at the time of his birth. He has released his birth certificate. I have no idea if he released his college information but what college you go to has NOTHING to do with being a non-naturalized citizen.

At the same time John McCain was born in Panama when his parents were stationed there. He was not born in a US state but due to the laws is considered a US citizenship without going through the naturalization process.

They are both eligible and next time please do a simple fact check before you spout off unsubstantiated rumors.

QFT. Btw, I believe the legalese for McCain's status is "statutory citizenship," which is why he is allowed to run for president. It's not exactly the same as native-born citizenship (which IS what Obama has, btw), but that's more a matter of semantics than anything, at this point. The obvious thing is that neither of them are naturalized citizens, so they're covered in that respect.

On the other hand, what would the impact have been if Obama had been the one born in the Panama Canal Zone (or some other such region), instead of McCain? Even more hooting calls of his "unAmericanness," I'm QUITE sure. :rolleyes:

His birth certificate, afaik, has been put up on his website. But here's a quick link.

Fight the Smears: The Truth About Barack?s Birth Certificate

Paranoia is over there ->

Hopefully people will come across this thread so that all of their concerns about Senator Obama's birth certificate can be put to rest.

FactCheck.org: Born in the U.S.A.
http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama...ertificate.asp

Your friend got Rove'd. They are making up shit in hopes that something will stick...

How anyone would believe that the DNC would allow a presidential candidate to make it to within a week of election day when he/she wasn't eligible is laughable. Come on people!

Well, over the last eight years, Democrats have done dumber things. Hopefully those days are behind us now.

On a side note, I was watching the local Australian news the other night - the US correspondent was deep in Republican territory and people were saying things on camera about Obama, like "he is a muslim", "he swore his oath on the Koran", "he is a terrorist". After that, I was almost surprised not to hear "he's black". I'm amazed that there are people who swallow rumour like it is the truth. Personally I think these people already know who they are voting for and are clutching at *anything* to re-enforce their (slanted) view.

Living where I do (Kentucky), I see a LOT of this. Half-assed excuses and illogical reasoning to avoid saying straight up, "I'm not voting for a black man." Not so much where I live (Louisville), but definitely out in the state.

a poll of 550 Texas voters showed that 23% think he's a Muslim.

Is that really true, or do they just use that as an excuse not to vote for the black guy?

They use it as an excuse not to say they won't vote for the black guy. Now instead of black guys coming and stealing your daughters, it's Muslims.

Mr. J. Mellow,

I think you have been sufficiently berated so I see no further need to chastise you further. To tell you the truth, I wouldn't chastise you anyway. I mean, what the heck. Anyhow, this campaign season I have gone with the approach that if it sounds wacky, and I did not witness it with my own eyes, then it probably is wacky. This includes Obama being a Muslim, being the best friend of Bill Ayres, and being born outside the U.S. What I have witnessed with my own eyes was Obama sitting in the pew in front of Rev. Wright.

As for McCain, I did not actually seen his seven houses, but I have seen enough evidence to assume that the houses are there. And there's never been any denial.

By the way, Barry Goldwater ran for President in 1964 (I think it was 1964) and he was born in Arizona before it became a state. So some of this stuff about candidates' places of birth is not unprecedented.

Your Buddy,
Galileo Smith

the level of disinformation coming mostly from the right in this campaign is pretty amazing, not because there's more of it, but because the context has changed around the conservatives such that what they've done with some effect now has turned against them.

what it looks like at this point is the republicans in the form of the mc-cain campaign are driving at considerable speed toward a very large wall. while it is still possible that the voting population of the united states could be seized with an unfortunate phase of collective dementia and go against all expectations and elect another republican (such thoughts are the consequence of bush getting a second term, which still astonishes me), it does not seem likely.

if thats the case, it'll be interesting to see how the republicans try to regroup.
one thing that's clear is the "permanent republican majorities" that rove et al were talking about a few years ago has not turned out to be terribly permanent.
i am reminded of a previous thousand year prediction, but it seems churlish to go with it.
no-one wants to be a churl.
no-one wants to know what being a churl might entail.
it doesn't sound good, whatever it is.

If using race didn't work, the Rove Smear machine wouldn't use it. In 2000, they got the 527's to imply (or accuse, you decide) that McCain had an interracial love child. In 2008, they hit the jackpot with an actual living, breathing, non-white candidate. The job was so easy for them (and yet they've managed to screw up the smear)

I don't think they screwed it up, the economy dropping in the shitter actually brought real issues to the forefront. The race would be closer if it weren't for the economy. Remember that McCain was ahead in the polls right before the Sept crash...

the tactic is transparent. if the right refers to itself as "us" it follows that obama has to be situated as "not one of us"---all the predicates the mc-cain people have tried to hang on obama function in the same way.

it points once again to the centrality of identity to conservative political language.
and that language--and everything that has been built around it--is what is pulling the republicans into a void.
if they loose this election--and i think they will (and badly)--i think you'll see the republicans undertake a fundamental rethinking of their strategy, of the nature and direction of their coalition.
i think this will be a good thing for the entirety of the american political system.

nothing is less democratic than political claims articulated as matters of identity.

While the economy crash didn't help McCain and has helped lead to the blowout numbers we are seeing his lead was due to the post convention bounce.


http://www.electoral-vote.com/evp200...2008-solid.png

Look at Obama's numbers there is a trend. Right at convention time his numbers dropped but it rebounded to the same spot. I and i'm sure most people looking back will refer to this as a convention bounce.

Not a factor in my voting so I don't care, but the below may apply to Obama as well as McCain.

This is what I wanted to comment on, because there is no chance of even a plausible argument to this. I figure this info will help you. I don't truly care one way about McCain or Obama in this aspect. But the info maybe helpful to you. This was stuff I learned in 11th grade.

If you are born overseas and both of your parents are natural born US citizens and have lived in the US, you are a US citizen..... this could be McCain.

All persons born in the United States, except those not subject to the jurisdiction of the U.S. government (such as children of foreign diplomats) are citizens under the Fourteenth Amendment. Persons born in the United States, and persons born on foreign soil to two U.S. parents, are born American citizens and are classified as citizens at birth under 8 USC 1401... this could and does include illegal immigrants who have their children born here.

If you are born in a "organized and incorporated territory of the United States", you are a US natural born citizen..... Barry Goldwater, Obama.

The only argument that neither Constitutionally cannot run because of citizenry would be if one had not lived in the US 14 years as a resident. Since both have..... this should not really be an issue.

Natural-born citizen - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I prefer intelligent response to Internet search queries, and while I did try a Google search or two, the results weren't really that impressive either way.

The basis for this statement was that if he were a foreign student and receiving financial aid or other help, it might show up in his college records or writings.

I don't consider myself to have spouted off anything. I made a post asking a simple question. I find it a bit disheartening that you recommend Internet search queries to informed discussion, but that's neither here nor there. This forum seems to have more negativity and inflammatory comments of late than it used to. Not sure why, but it doesn't really encourage discussion. Given that, perhaps search queries and results are the ideal path to an answer.

It's not even the economy that will cause McCain to lose by a massive landslide {if you believe polls}.

The fact that McCain is from the same party as one of the most umpopular presidents of all time, is a factor. And McCain not distancing himself from that president really hurt him.

The fact McCain seems out of touch with reality a times and has problems relating to the average citizen, while his opponent has a charisma and can put on a great show that he can relate, has hurt McCain fa more than the economy.

The fact McCain doesn't come through and show a true economic plan that can work, again hurts him.

But the biggest hurt is that McCain for whatever reason, runs this campaign like he wants to lose is the major factor.

I think if he had a better economic plan, could relate better had distanced himself FAR from Bush and showed more compassion for the people, this election would be far closer than the blowout it will be.

IMO, ignorant rumors perpetuated by extremists with an agenda are not deserving of a discussion beyond stating the simple fact that they are ignorant rumors perpetuated by extremists.

Sorry if you find that negative and inflammatory.

The fundamental weirdness here is that you think that discussion is the best way to determine FACT. Facts aren't a matter of discussion or assertion. I know that over the last eight years we've had many assertions treated as fact, but that doesn't actually make it so.

Now: interpretation, analysis, reaction... Those are good discussion starters.

I considered this forum to be a better place to go for facts than Google searches. And after reading pan6467's post explaining citizenship laws, I am confident I was right. It took a few replies, but eventually we got there. :)

Thanks!

Should we discuss this one next.

It is in today's edition of Weekly World News, the supermarket tabloid that claims to be the "world's only reliable news" (Michael Savage makes the same claim about his radio show).

OCTOBER SURPRISE: ALIEN ENDORSES MCCAIN!

http://www.weeklyworldnews.com/wp-co...dorse_full.jpg

Weekly World News|The World’s Only Reliable News!

This story "is intriguing to me" so here is my discussion question:

Why would an alien endorse an old white jingoistic hawkish conservative over a young multi-cultural socialist pacifist who would give aliens the benefits of our social safety net and talk to their leader w/o pre-conditions.

NO......it can't be true!

Actually i prefer personal research as apposed to uninformed discussion which is what you were doing.

Should I start a thread on John McCain being an Manchurian candidate that was brainwashed as a POW? I can say what ever I want but without facts to back up my claims it is merely an uninformed discussion (also known as rumor mongering and gossip).

Thanks Pan. Sadly, lawyers know that much of what you learned in 11th grade is false. The courts have never definitively stated that 'natural-born citizen' means 'citizen at birth'. Most people believe this is the case, but for the contrarians:

By basic standards of statutory interpretation, if Congress changes the wording of a statute, it must be changing the meaning of the statute. Therefore, Congress changed its mind, and so citizens born abroad are not to be considered 'natural-born'.

If I recall correctly, he has the additional problem that Congress only passed a law making the children of US citizens born in the canal zones citizens themselves after McCain was born. Meaning that McCain was not a citizen when he was born.

Like I've said, I don't think these arguments work (and I don't think any court would toss out McCain as president based on these arguments). But they're not ridiculous arguments as far as legal arguments go.

See also this post by Prof. Jack Balkin for a summary of an argument a strict constructionist might make:
http://balkin.blogspot.com/2008/05/w...ds-living.html

All the legal scholars I have listened to define "natural-born citizen" as a citizen who did not have to go through the naturalization process. The fact that John McCain is running and Barry Goldwater ran would back up that finding.

Thats' a big issue. I am interested in the end result. You provided worth resource of interview but it's hard to say who is right.

Came in late... but unfortunately my father gets tons of email chains like these and I always have to refute them.

Basically if you hear ANYTHING about Obama.. or any other politician that raises a red flag for you go to FactCheck.org. They are an independent group that is very quick to research and prove/disprove any political hack job.

Just like there are people who believe Elvis is still alive, there will be people who think Obama was born outside of the US. The irony is that usually Obama supporters make this a headline issue. Why? Because Obama gains political points every time the nature of his birth is discussed rather than any of his failed policies. If Obama supporters dropped this issue, it would fall into obscurity.

Yes, it's Obama supporters who are to blame for questions about his citizenship. :rolleyes:

Just like liberals are most responsible for Palin being in the media so much, notice that when you folks took your month off, that Palin was not in the news? Off course you won't see the conection, but Like I said many times if liberals left Palin alone she would fade, similarly if liberals drop the "birther" thing it would fade also. You have no idea of the things that really concern conservatives.

That's right, liberals did get Palin that job at Fox.

"Sarah Palin" - Google News

Yeah, Palin-free month had mixed results. She only popped up in about 12,767 sources in February according to a Google News search.

It continues...


Huckabee Explains Obama's "Different Worldview": "Our Communities Were Filled With Rotary Clubs, Not Madrassas" | Media Matters for America

It's all pretty ridiculous, that thing with Huckabee. Obama's father became an atheist before he met his mother, and his mother was essentially an agnostic and a daughter of nonpracticing Baptists and Methodists.

Unless Wikipedia lies, of course. Who knows who is telling the truth anymore, right?

Right, ace.

Those birther bills introduced by Republicans in 11 state legislatures are the liberals fault! :eek:

Ga. latest state to propose "birther" bill - CBS News

I hope nobody wonders why people like me view American politics as a spectator sport.

Well, it's a spectator sport to you because you had the misfortune of being born in the tundra. Just sayin...

It's better than being asleep in the desert of the real. (No, this isn't directed at you.)

Post hoc ergo propter hoc. You know better than to imply correlation is the same as causation. Palin hasn't been in the news as much this month because she hasn't said as many stupid or hateful things.
I almost certainly have a better grasp on the conservative mind than you do, Ace. I'm a member of a half dozen conservative forums, I watch Fox News, I listen to Rush and Beck when I have the chance, and I read Drudge and Red State and Malkin and Town Hall. The idea that Palin madness and Birther nonsense are only a big deal because of liberals is truly and utterly false, demonstrably so. Mike Huckabee, just this last Monday during a radio interview, said that Barack Obama was raised in Kenya, reigniting the Birther talk on the right yet again.

You are quite simply wrong about this, and I would appreciate if you'd do a bit of self-reflection and ask yourself why you need to just make stuff up in order to try and defend the conservative right.

Ditto.

It's like the best soap opera going... only better.

Considering how much we love television, it's the perfect distraction.

The outright racism coming from the right wing is incredible. There is no basis in fact to support his slanders. This isn't some hack on a small talk show in Bumfuck, Mississippi, this is Huckabee saying this. The GOP needs to clean its shit up.

Fuckabee spouts that BS line about how we don't know anything about Obama. Well if he had read Dreams of My Father he'd know that Obama actually did grow up in the Boy Scouts, even though it was when he was in Indonesia

http://www.boyandgirlscouts.com/inte...s-a-boy-scout/

Rotary clubs in Indonesia:

Job at Fox equals what? Many people work at Fox and are of no real significance. Whatever happened to Juan Williams after his day in the national spot light, there was fan fare about Fox giving him a job, worked out well for him didn't it. Oh, but that's a diversion, right...just ignore it...if you don't see relevance in context.

---------- Post added at 10:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:38 PM ----------

Is this the new standard for political importance?

What an odd question. Why do you ask? I was merely pointing out in a measurable way just how wrong you were.

Perhaps this is an issue worthy of discussion. I for one have no respect for the British colonial empire and it influences my view of the British to this day, and I have no known Kenyan heritage. I certainly understand certain people from around the world having a bias against the British. I would love to debate the issue with Huckabee. Why wouldn't Obama?

---------- Post added at 10:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:47 PM ----------

Many bills get introduced that have absolutely no possibility of passage, you know this. Get serious.

---------- Post added at 10:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:49 PM ----------

Do you watch and read the news? There has clearly been a shift. Many in the media will no longer mention Palin as a potential GOP hopeful for the nomination. This shift happened in the last 30 days. People have made a decision to ignore her.

What you post does not support your claim.


Those are sources, but they are somewhat removed from the grass roots level of conservative thought. All the above have agendas, either to entertain, make money or otherwise capitalize on being in the alleged forefront of conservative thought.

He said he misspoke regarding the Kenya comment and that was not the point of his commentary. The point was regarding his world view as it related to British colonialism.

I don't make stuff up, I cut to the chase and speak truth.

In the words of Baraka....What an odd comment. Obama should debate the Mau Mau revolution in Kenya because of Huckabee's suggesting that Obama's world view is influenced by his father and grandfather, despite Huckabee' ignorance of Obama's family's history.


ace, that's true.

The bills were introduced to pander to the extremist fringe of the base and has nothing to do with liberals.

---------- Post added at 06:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:01 PM ----------

You can attempt to sugar coat it anyway you want, but the point of his commentary was racially inflammatory, with ignorant references to Obama's family and the Mau Maus.

Lady Gaga had over 10,000. That is of no importance in politics either.

"lady gaga" - Google News

Another odd comment, ace. Try to focus, please.

Be that as it may, I for one, would vote for Lady Gaga for president over Palin, who unlike Gaga, is a paid political commentator and has suggested her interest in running.

I did not say that he should, I asked why wouldn't he. I think the issue is a chapter in human history that has been glossed over - it is worthy of debate. In my view until it is openly discussed there will be an undercurrent of il feelings. That is just my opinion, nothing more, nothing less.



I agree the bills have nothing to do with liberals. However, to the degree that liberals focus on matters of no importance has everything to do with their choices. It is legitimate to question that.

B.S. people who are racists are and have been "inflamed". Other people want to understand Obama's world view and how it evolved. There are blaring questions and if you want to play the race card every time the questions are discussed that is diversionary.

From the master of diversionary B.S. :thumbsup:

But if you want to play that card, Obama's family had no more to do with the Mau Mau revolution in Kenya than Huckabee's family had to do with lynchings in the south in the 50s.

It is not odd for those who have read what I have written in the past on the subject of Palin. Lady Gaga has made political comments and I don't take her comments seriously because she is a reflection of her audience and does not change political views. Palin does not change political views either, even when mcCain picked her, he did it to energize the "base" which see did. Liberals and independents have no need to fear Palin after the 2008 loss. To the degree you folks make a big deal out of her is your problem. I have said that repeatedly, sooner or later you folks will get the message. I thought Feb. was your turning point, I guess it wasn't. Viva, Palin:thumbsup:

---------- Post added at 11:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:24 PM ----------

Thanks.

It is not possible to have been a living person in the South through the civil rights movement and not have had it shape in some material fashion one's current political views.

Yes, I would question Huckabee about his past regarding civil Rights and how his views were formed - including understanding the views of his parents and grand parents and how he reconciled with them. Bill Clinton had to address those issues and he did in a manner that allowed him to win 80% to 90% of the black vote.

ace, you were talking about Sarah Palin and the news just a few posts ago. It's right there.

Well, it's difficult to take Palin's comments seriously too, but that's no reason to ignore her or not be concerned. There is still talk of her running for president. Many were saying having a black man as president was next to impossible at this time in American history....

Huckabee was born and grew up in the South.

Obama was born in Hawaii and grew up there (with his maternal grandparents) and in Indonesia...and barely knew his Kenyan father and didnt visit the country until his 20s.

Feel free to keep making excuses for Huckabee's ignorant, and yes, racially charged comments....correcting himself about the Mau Maus (scary Blacks) in Kenya only to then speak about Obama growing up in the context of madrasas (scary Muslims) in Indonesia.

I find it difficult to accept that you are debating the content of Huckabee's action. He has simply fed fuel into the fire of the conservative propaganda machine. It has become expected that Republicans, in their failure to win enough credibility and support for their positions and policies, must resort to misinformation, half-truths, redirection, and encouraging the ignorance and outrage of the voting public in an attempt to undermine the legitimacy of an ostensibly all-too-liberal president.

This is merely one of the many underhanded actions we can expect to see in the run-up to the 2012 election.

I'd like to be proven wrong.

I'm honestly not sure what we're even arguing about at this point.
On the contrary, it most certainly does. The difference is simple: when I converse with or observe conservatives, I'm doing it as someone who does not agree with them on many things. I don't end up filtering out things which I disagree with in order to maintain a sense of ideological unity. I'm ashamed to say I don't always maintain that level of objectivity when it comes to people on the left, which leads me to suspect that the same is true of conservatives. Tell me, how vigilantly did you, in other political venues (be they forums, real life, Fox News comments, etc.), challenge the Birthers when they first came out of the woodwork? Did you champion reality, or did you ignore it and agree with the Birthers on other matters without mentioning it?
There are grassroots sources on the right, but they hold almost no influence over the majority of conservatives. I don't ignore Eisenhower-esque or Ron Paul-ish sites, but I'm more than certain that their effect on conservative thought is minuscule at best. Moderate conservatives and true libertarians, which are the only real alternatives to the neoconservatives nowadays, are quite whispers compared to the megaphones of conservative talk radio, Fox News, and conservative political blogs like Drudge.
I'm sure Huck wants people to think he misspoke. If I said something like that and was caught, I'd not want to take responsibility for it either. I suppose cowardice is normal in a situation like that.

This should be in paranoia. I'm sorry but you can't 'slip by' your birth cert. and become president if you aren't a citizen. Don't people realize there are official types that check these things?

I don't see the Mau Mau uprising in terms of "scary" and certainly not in terms of race. The British wanted to exploit the land and employ cheep labor for their enrichment. I would have fought along side the people of Kenya seeking freedom and self-determination.

We seem to be totally out of sync regarding what the point of this is. For the record and hopefully to clarify my position - I have no respect for British colonialism. The impact of what was done has had lasting effects and to this day is hurting the development of the African continent. The British has never done anything to correct the problems they created. I don't suggest that the British are not currently good allies of this country and that they do not make some positive contributions to the world - but on this issue it is very problematic for me. From my point of view, I would accept Huckabee's call, and debate the issue.

---------- Post added at 04:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:17 PM ----------

You used Google news stories to make a point, within in that what percentage had to do with politics? A large number of those "news" stories had to do with Kathy Griffin playing a Palin like role on Glee.

---------- Post added at 04:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:22 PM ----------

You think you know conservatives better than I do, I disagree. I will never be able to prove you are wrong. I highlight the above statement from your post for your re-consideration. It seems implausible on its face to me.

If you're implying the Tea Party is grassroots, I welcome you to follow their funding all the way back to conservative think tanks and eventually the Koch brothers. All of the information is publicly available, and you can actually see every step taken by the organized right to take over the movement from the libertarians and turn it into a political tool working on behalf of the big government neoconservatives. There is no reasonable doubt as to this information.

Or perhaps you're referring to some other grassroots organization on the right with political clout? Please, enlighten me.

ace....more of the same diversionary bullshit.

Huckabee's comments to his political base were not about British colonialism,..he would be an idiot to think his base, or any voters, gives a crap about the subject, being that it is irrelevant to their concerns..... but were to demonize Obama as somehow being influenced by "Un-American" ideals.


I dont think ace wants to acknowledge the fact that Palin is paid $1 million by Fox to express her political opinion as opposed to Lady Gaga or Kathy Griffin, who are not and who do not have political ambitions.

Ignorance is bliss.

Well, Palin, Gaga, and Griffin all have something in common: none of them have ruled out running for president in 2012.

I guess that means they're all potential candidates, and we should follow them in the news with equal consideration.

Here is an example of a grassroots conservative view:

IBD/TIPP Poll: Americans Back Offshore, ANWR Drilling - Investors.com

On every issue you will see base level support of an issue and you will see trends or patterns. There is a tolerance in the middle and with new information there are shifts at the "grassroots" level that will move the course of political action in this country. For example Democrats were out of touch with the underlying "grass roots" conservative views of the country leading into the 2010 elections. Obama has continued to show he is out of touch and is out of touch on the energy issue. At the "grassroots" level conservative people do not want electric cars and windmills, we want oil. smart politician respond to "grassroots" issues and concerns.


I talk about the general views held by individuals in the country. Only small percentages of people join organizations, very few post on boards or do blogs, very few call talk radio, no one media outlet or personality dominates - mostly we are talking about people who simply try to make the most of their day to day lives.

---------- Post added at 07:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:06 PM ----------

Huckabee insulted Obama, but not in the way you think. Huckabee basically said that Obama is afraid and unwilling to share what he really thinks, that what we get from Obama is the image he wants to project. He threw the Kenyan thing out as a challenge to Obama.




Palin is paid by Fox to get viewers.
Lady Gaga gets paid to get viewers.
Kathy Griffin gets paid to get viewers.

When any of the above faulter, they will stop getting paid eventually.

Who is really ignorant?

---------- Post added at 07:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:13 PM ----------

Funny. I have not ruled out a run for President either.

I pay attention to Palin because I like her as a person, I like her politics and I like her style. You pay attention because.....? I think the answer is because you fear her for some reason.

A part of it is the entertainment factor. She's practically a self-parody who's difficult to take serious at times. A part of it I guess could be described as fear. I fear someone like her becoming the President of the United States. Anyone who wants to resurrect Reagonomics or to continue many of the things conducted both economically and politically under George W. Bush is a the very least a wee bit frightening.

For the record, I don't really pay attention to Lady Gaga. I sometimes play one or two singles if I feel like hearing a solid beat with a catchy melody. But that's about it. Also, I don't really know who Kathy Griffin is. Some kind of co-host with Regis?

Anyway, neither of those two have much of an impact on me up here in the Great White North, whether current or potential.

I can't say the same about Sarah Palin.

I don't pay attention merely because I fear what she represents. I pay attention because she is a significant part of what's going on south of the border. This is the case even if she doesn't run for president.

I didn't think it would be that difficult to comprehend.

You think conservative support for offshore drilling can't be traced back to neoconservative propaganda? Again, follow the money. Long-time Washington insider and neoconservative Dick Armey's FreedomWorks, known right now best for being one of the biggest hands behind the Tea Party, and the US Chamber of Commerce worked directly with BP in attempting to build astroturf support for offshore drilling. I'm sorry, but if you think that support for offshore drilling is grassroots, I've got a bridge to sell you. That leads to nowhere.

Moreover, the poll that said 57% of Americans favor offshore drilling was done by Rasmussen, which has been known to poll more in favor of conservative points compared to other pollsters. The same poll done at the same time by Virginia Commonwealth University, which is nonpartisan, actually revealed that 51% of Americans are opposed to offshore drilling. I'll grant you that's not a wide margin, but considering there are no corporate funded propaganda machines pushing to end drilling, it's an important number.
Those people want to tax the rich to balance the budget. Boot-strapy folk wantin' to make ends meet and work hard to do right by their families want that rich to pay their fair share, which goes against arguably the central issue of modern conservatism. This belief can't be traced back to a conservative or liberal or libertarian think tank because most of them are funded by millionaires. This is a real life, actual grassroots belief.

Aaand herein lies the irony: Obama's citizenship is brought into question.

Whither the questions regarding corporate influence on politics?

Oh wait: conservatives worship Corporate America as the driving force behind American prosperity. They look to Corporate America as a source of values, principles, and hope. They look to Corporate America as the foundation of the very essence of the state and every individual within it. They look to Corporate America as a means to find salvation from everything that plagues society. They pay tribute to Corporate America through tax breaks, for all of the good it brings. Oh, yes, they look quite fervently to the Catholic Church Corporate America, and it is for the good of the American public above all else.

Why would anyone who isn't an oil company favor offshore oil drilling? Wouldn't any oil that resulted from an increase in offshore drilling simply be sold on the world market to the highest bidder? I wonder if any oil companies would get hefty handouts from the federal government in conjunction with offshore drilling? Hmm. It almost seems like increased offshore drilling will cost the US taxpayers money and provide benefit almost solely for wealthy corporations. That sounds like something that has grassroots support :rolleyes:.

The tea party is relevant because it provides a means for those who are already wealthy to become even wealthier. If the tea party could actually achieve its ostensible goals (ie government accountability and fiscal responsibility) the people who currently fund it would be actively funding its antagonists.

I think moms with kids want to drive those kids to soccer practice without the need for a second mortgage to pay for gas. They don't want any undue harm to come to the caribou in Alaska but not at the expense of being able to fill-up the minivan.:thumbsup:

Oh, and they don't care where Obama was born, but they will talk about it.

Why did you just skip over the part where I linked to an article describing in great detail how BP and the Tea Party are basically in bed together to create artificial support for offshore drilling? Or the polling showing that a majority of Americans are actually against offshore drilling? Those directly call into question your assertion that there's some sort of grassroots support among real Americans for offshore drilling. Were you wrong, is this all just from your 'gut', or do you have more information?

I love how he misspoke but talked about Obama's views of the Mau Mau revolution. What, does he believe the Mau Mau revolution occurred in Indonesia? (yes I took that from Colbert, but that doesn't make it any less true)

Because our disagreement involved an understanding of what is important to conservatives on a grassroots level. Most conservatives do not belong to the Tea Party or have even attended a Tea Party event. Also, at the grassroots level conservatives have more concern for the owner of the local BP gas station than they despise BP. BP is not going to influence conservative thought at the grassroots level one way or the other until they repair their corporate image.


I spend a lot of time with parents with kids involved in sports and other activities as is my son. Waiting for practice to end gets pretty boring and parents talk about all kinds of stuff. If you really want insight to grassroots issues, hang out at a soccer field for a season or two.

That's actually not at all what he was trying to do. He was flat out saying Obama's views are somehow "Un-American". Just because you twisted what he said around to make a point doesn't mean that it's true. This is ridiculous.

I thought he said he misspoke regarding where Obama was raised.

I was not raised in Kenya and I have an opinion on British colonialism and nations in Africa fighting for independence and self-determination. Do you have a view? Does Obama? If so, what is it? Huckabee suggests that Obama has a view but is hiding it. I think Huckabee stand by that charge.

Yes, he said he misspoke about where Obama was raised but insinuated that because Obama was raised in Kenya, his views of the Mau Mau revolution are different than ours. But Obama wasn't raised in Kenya, so his whole point is moot and his retraction is a flat out lie.

Stop trying to pretend like he was making separate points. His comment about Obama's view of the Mau Mau revolution tied in completely with his (ignorant) comment about Obama being raised in Kenya.

If what you suggest is true, Huckabee considers me un-American. Rather than running from the charge I would go back at him point by point. I would debate him. I don't see it as a racist issue at all, or a "not one of us" issue. Being an American means that we fought against the British for our independence. America is more aligned with Kenya on that point than with Britain. And i would shout that off the roof tops all day long - but I am not a politician.

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And he is wrong.

You don't have to be from Kenya to have your point of view shaped by those events.

The guy doing the interview was/is a "birther", and the question was a setup question. Huckabee responded to a different point, that is what created most of the confusion. Huckabee should have simply said that he is not a "birther" and then went on to make his other point.

I'm sure your fellow soccer parents are interesting folks each with their own opinions, but I'm amazed that you're willing to consider that very, very small group somehow representative of an entire half of the political spectrum. I'm also more than a little shocked that you think BP teaming up with FreedomWorks and the Chamber of Commerce to brainwash the population with pro offshore drilling propaganda isn't a big deal and doesn't have consequences that reach even as far as the soccer field. Don't you care that there's a concerted effort by the rich and powerful elite to manipulate you into believing things which are not true, like offshore drilling being safe and necessary to keep your SUV running?

I get information from many sources, I even read what you write and the sources included in your posts. However, have you ever noticed the difference in how I respond to those sources and how others respond to sources outside of their normal routines? The general rule is anything not on the "approved list" is immediately dismissed regardless of content by you folks. Even you minimize the importance of "soccer moms (and dads and other youth sports and youth activities)". When I talk to people raising children in NC, I understand the perspective.


I do not buy into the general concept of mass brainwashing. I believe the Stockholm syndrome is possible on some people but not on a mass scale. Rather than the theory you present, I think it is more about people in their day to day lives trying to make it the best they can molding political points of view on topics like offshore drilling.

There are risks in offshore drilling. There are risks in everything we do. I do not make the assumption that people do not understand the trade offs involved in the risks and benefits of off-shore drilling or any form of drilling.

Total rubbish.

The remarks about the Mau Mau revolution in Kenya only to be corrected by remarks about madrases in Indonesia were solely to pander to the fear (and misconceptions) that is pervasive among his base

Obama's views on British colonialism does not show up on any Americans top 10 (or 20 or 100) lists of issues of concern.

Oh so you're saying Obama should debate with someone who makes one off remarks that make no sense. You know if he took the time to debate everyone who makes up, for lack of a better word, bullshit, Obama would have no time to do anything else and the other side of the aisle would lambaste him for not taking his job seriously. This makes absolutely no sense.

If you link to a source that we can verify is untrustworthy, then that source is untrustworthy. It has nothing to do with bias or partisanship, it has to do with no trusting liars. I don't trust liars regardless of their political beliefs and neither should you. You're welcome to post references as you see fit, but don't expect the people you're trying to convince just to take your sources at their word.

My aunt and uncle live in Fayetteville, and they're almost as far right as you are. They watch Fox News, so much so they've tried to get my grandmother who lives out here with me to watch Fox News. I don't know why you don't think your conservative peers aren't influenced by conservative media.
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How do you think Gulf Coast people are enjoying their day to day lives right now? The pollutant/dispersant Corexit is poisoning people en masse and the spilled oil is still sitting there at the Gulf floor, killing off millions of organisms. Tell me, do you and your fellow sporting parents check the foods you buy to see if they're coming from the Gulf? Have you enjoyed and shrimp lately? I ask because even if you're somehow able to compartmentalize one of the largest man-made ecological disasters in human history somehow, there are real consequences even for North Carolinians from offshore drilling that extend far beyond gas prices.
There are different risks for everything we do. Some things are very unrisky, like making a salad in my kitchen, and some things are very risky, like hiring a blind pilot to fly me and my family to Afghanistan for the weekend. Offshore drilling is very risky and the potential consequences are clearly catastrophic.