America: John, stop acting like a child and debate Barack.
McCain: McCain will go to debate - Politico Staff - Politico.com

It seems to me that McCain would rather "Win an election than save the economy". How unpatriotic of him.


For those of you who think McCain is right what do you think of his plan that decreases regulation and removes capital gains taxes?

The Debate is going to be held as scheduled.

The only reason McCain didn't want to debate was so he could look like a hero in the bailout deal. Too bad the timing didn't work out for him. :rolleyes:

Right now, these 2 men are supposed leaders of their respective parties. This is something that there is no "quick" fix for, but something BOTH men could go into and work so that a deal is made and something is done.

I feel injecting 2 senators that are looked at as leaders of their party should be there, presidential candidates or not.

Screw A DEBATE. By the end of this weekend hopefully something is done and worked on. Then the debates can go on.

Look if Pearl Harbor, 9/11 or another past major event had happened, do you honestly believe 2 US senators would say "Fuck that, we have debates."

To me, it's a matter of them being there, saying, "fuck politics, we're going to work together on this and then resume our campaigns." THAT is bringing America together.

One saying, I'll go and work on this and suspend things until it's done...... is a gamble. While noble, it can be looked at as grandstanding.

The other saying, "Well a president has to multi-task and we need this debate." Is just as much a gamble and also can be looked at as grandstanding.

Why couldn't one or both say, "in this time of uncertainty, I ask my colleague to join with me and help work out a plan with Congressional leaders and the President."

THAT would be the true showing of leadership and wanting the best for the country.


This we can agree on. It is sad that even a serious problem that will affect us all and can seriously damage our country and we can't even have the 2 major POTUS candidates agree that they need to work together for what is best for ALL not just their chance for getting elected.


True, but again, banks failing and the economic future of our country holding on by a thread doesn't happen often.

It's a moot point...... McCain will go down and debate and then go back and continue working on this.

It is sad that even saving our country has become fucking partisan.

I am ashamed to be an American right now. We should all be working together and not separately. "WE can work it out"...... but WE have to work together, we need to STOP, BREATHE and WORK TOGETHER as a country not as 2 separate egotistical self righteous parties 2 that care only about getting themselves elected.

IMO, the person who demonstrates greater leadership skills is the one who identifies general guiding principals on an issue, recognizes that there are others with greater expertise and steps back to let those persons work out the details., until such time that their presence is needed.

The more political person is the one who feels the need to insert himself into the discussion at the most basic level in order to present himself as a critical "player" in the game.

Viewers will decide which was which in the theatrical display that we witnessed over the last 24-48 hours.

I'm pretty sure that Obama is doing his part as well. He was in the meeting with Bush jr. yesterday. McCain really isn't doing anything. He's not on the committee.. he's just there to say "Let's get something done" and to try and look like the hero in all this. He honestly doesn't have any say so in the matter except to tell his party to get it done.

What is McCain going to come back and work on...other than his ego?

The work will go on more productively w/o either candidate sticking their hands into it. The difference is that Obama has laid out his guiding principles on the issue and McCain continues to insist that his presence is needed.

Our political process may be frustrating at times...I may have serious issues with our leaders from time to time (like the last eight years) and be ashamed and embarrassed that they may represent the face of America to the world ...

http://www.evolvefish.com/fish/media...'tVote.gif

but I have never been ashamed to be an American.

Yeah, I don't undertand that either. Equating the failure of the banks with Pearl Harbour is a bit much, too.

Did McCain really suspend his campaign or just duck on on Letterman. His officies were all still open, his people still did phone banking and such, he didn't actually pull adds, and to top it off he already won the debate http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv...Friday_WSJ.JPG. If he was truly serious about suspending his campaign and not going to the debates then why did they already buy and release an add saying he won the debate which hasn't even took place yet?

pan, if you understood how Congress works, you'd never say such an absurd thing.

These two men are NOT the leaders of their parties. They are their parties' Presidential Nominees. They're not on the Banking committee. Neither of them is in the Senate leadership. One of them is going to be the next president, but that doesn't magically give them "fly in and fix things single-handed" authority.

They're not in on Banking committee meetings. They're not participants in that part of the Congressional decision-making.

Plus, all signs indicate that McCain was actually obstructive to the plan that was forwarded yesterday afternoon, while Obama tried to bring the sides together--which is exactly what you yourself claim you'd want him to do. He did that! Precisely what you want! So now please ignore all this and post another screed.

quoted for truth and .. because you said it much better than I did :thumbsup:

pan--did you not see what happened yesterday? were you not paying attention?
what you think a Great Idea--we have A Meeting of the Whole Team and we all pull together at once, as if the National Will can be sent through all available wires endowing the Leader with SuperHuman Powers and once that happens BAM! into fragments go those pesky problems---that Great Idea, which works out pretty well in superhero comics, is what cowboy george tried yesterday--and it was torpedoed by the far right of the republican party in the house.

what you are watching is faction fighting WITHIN the republican party taking precedence over everything else.
what you are watching is a bit of gamesmanship from the right.
whether you think it'll work, whether you think the far right in the house--the gringrich people---are positioning themselves relative to some conservative base already assuming that mc-cain is cooked, so they're positioning themselves for a subsequent fight or not, the division you're complaining about is coming from your new and improved conservative side of the aisle.

personally, i think the far wing of the republican party just did a job on mc-cain. more damage than a dozen unscripted sarah palin answers to perfectly simple questions.
and i think that is funny.


by the way, central banks had to move to squash a total freeze-up of interbank lending this morning thanks in significant measure to the republicans little stunt:

FT.com / In depth - Central banks step in as bail-out fears mount

but in your world, pan, the problem is the debates?

i am not familiar with your world.
what color is the sky there?

It's obviously Red along with everything else.....

A McCain campaign web ad released this morning declared that "McCain Wins Debate!"

http://www.mydd.com/images/admin/mcain_debate.gif

Another ad spotted by our eagle-eyed observer featured a quote from McCain campaign manager Rick Davis declaring: "McCain won the debate-- hands down."

The Fix

this was even before he announced that he would attend the debate!

One, they are leaders by proxy of their respective parties. The fact that they are their party's presidential nominee makes them that, even if just as figureheads.

In 1992, was the battle cry no "It's the economy, stupid"? And yet, now, it's the candidates should not be involved, they need to debate and not be involved.

Yet, if this were reversed and it were Obama saying, "I'm going to Washington and put my campaign on suspension until something is done." While McCain said, "Let's debate.... if I'm needed I can do it over the phone... have to multi-task." I imagine most of you would applaud that and demonize McCain.

That's politics. Sad but true.

Neither of them can go in single handedly and solve it, however, BOTH need to be there because one, WILL have to govern when the "deal" truly begins to affect the country. If I were either of those guys, I would want to be a part of this because it directly will affect my presidency and the future of this country.

But that's just me.

Again, see above..... one of them is the future president.... I want them there because I want them to know what the fuck is going on because it will affect the future and how they govern.

But let's leave this partisan and truly destroy this country, let's not try to work together and make sure that the country's economy is going to survive.

We truly do not know what the Hell is going on. We hear both sides pontificating and blaming the other but we have NO IDEA the reality that is going on. For one to say "it's McCain's fault or Obama's fault" is just spewing partisan bullshit. It's all partisan right now and it's fucking bullshit.

This affects EVERYONE, we need to demand they put partisanship aside and work for what is best for ALL people.

But, both sides are equally trying to blame the other and neither is saying, "Let's just get this done. Let's do what we have to, TOGETHER."

One side says "the insertion of Presidenial politics hurt." One side says "having BOTH men there was extremely helpful". So they can't even agree on that.

THIS IS OUR FUTURE, WE FACE HYPER INFLATION, BANKS CLOSING, OUR WHOLE ECONOMIC FUTURE IN DOUBT AND IT IS BECOMING PARTISAN BULLSHIT FODDER...... WE ARE IN TROUBLE PEOPLE. ONE OF THESE MEN WILL BE RUNNING THE COUNTRY AND IMHO, THAT PERSON BEST BE PREPARED AND BE INVOLVED NOW IN WHAT IS GOING ON.

THIS IS NOT A PARTISAN ISSUE....... THIS IS AN ISSUE THAT WILL AFFECT ALL OF US.

But, according to some on here all of a sudden it's not important.... the debates are.

700 BILLION taxpayer dollars, where they go, how they are used to bail out this economy is far more important.

The fact Ford and GM are saying they may need bail outs is serious.

We are in trouble....... but instead of trying to work TOGETHER let's keep it all partisan.

You say, "Fuck the country, I want my side to win." That's easy... the Dems have the votes... they don't need the GOP votes to pass whatever they want. Just get enough for Bush to sign and you're done.

I say, "Fuck the partisan bullshit, I want my country to come through this and have a plan to be stronger." The only way that becomes possible is if both sides work together. Which if here is any indication of what our politicians, our elected leaders, are acting..... then we are truly doomed because neither side is willing to even listen to the other. And that ain't what's best for America.

You know what the best resolution for the bailout would be? For it not to happen and these smucks who have been living a life of champagne showers find out how hard it can be.

I'm not demonizing McCain with one exception and that is that he is only using this to make it look like he walked in and waved his Magic Maverick Wand and it was solved. Both candidates are fully aware of whats going on. To say they aren't is nothing but pure panic and only adds fuel to the fire.

You call for bi-partisan solutions.. yet it's the Republican party who is not living up to this. The Dems are simply wanting to make sure that people are going to get what they need not what they want..what they want is a blank check..which the Repubs are willing to give them.. which is a huge mistake.

pan....comparing a campaign slogan and broad campaign theme with inserting oneself into the minutiae of negotiations for a legislative solution? wtf?

No one has suggested that the "candidates should not be involved" ...simply that their roles should be to articulate their position to the public while consulting with their party representatives who are the negotiators on the issue, not micromanage the process.

IMO.....A good leader should not need to micromanage. He/she should set the parameters (core principles)...step back and delegate to those with expertise...consult with those experts in private during the process of negotiation...and only reinsert him/herself into the process when requested or at the very end in order to seal the deal.


The two parties WERE WORKING TOGETHER since last weekend ...the WH with Senate Dems and Repubs, House Dems and moderate House Repubs....with a minority number of the most conservative House Republicans bitching from outside.....and then MCain inserted himself into the process.

Who politicized it...if not McCain?

I've never been impressed with the tactic of wrapping the flag around oneself as a reasoned approached to problem solving....but McCain believes it will work and evidently, you bought into it.

I can't get your link to work.

But I smell...

http://www.seanet.com/~jimxc/Politic...ts_truman1.jpg

McCain Wins Debate - The Fix

I dont doubt that Obama has similar ads ready to go (if he doesnt, he should)...but Obama was not the one who made a public pronouncement of suspending his campaign and putting “country above politics.”

It's not a matter of micromanaging, it's a matter of being there and knowing what is being done.

I'm sorry, if I'm getting ready to run a company and it is having a serious problem, I want to be there so that when I take over, I know first hand what the Hell is happening. If I have a certain amount of stockholders backing me and I can sway their votes or get them to work out what is best for the company and not just them.... then I would want to be there.... Afterward, I can go out and tell people what was done to help the company. That is far better leadership than me saying what I would do after a deal that I don't know what the deal is. I may have good ideas, I may have people telling me.... but I don't have first hand knowledge so I, as the prospective leader can't really talk about it except in hypotheticals and second hand knowledge.

I want a president with first hand knowledge and was there working on it. I want them to do their job and I want them to take a stand and show leadership.... not pontificate and bullshit on what they may do after the fact.

And they cant possibly know by regular updates over the phone or even blackberry?

Its more important that they insert themselves into, or hover above, the proceedings with their all powerful presence and act like they are contributing to the details?

Thats an egotist...not the kind of leader I want.

I'm just curious.. which candidate doesn't know what's going on? I'm a bit confused.

All I really know is which candidate hasn't flip-flopped on how he would handle it.. and he isn't a "maverick" heh.

I figured it was Chris Cillizza when I saw "The Fix."

And yes I'm certain team Obama is getting their statements ready for the "spin room." Kind of sad that's where we're at anymore, we literally have a place we call the "spin room."

If it were you would you rather have secondhand knowledge or be there?

Me personally, I'd rather be there so I don't have to rely on others telling me what happened.

I want my future leader there.

They were both there..at a closed door meeting. Nothing was hammered out. There's no point in them being there when neither of them have any say-so on what happens. If either of them were on the committee's then yes, you would have a valid point.. but right now.. I just cannot understand what you are getting at. I'm sure they are constantly being updated.. so it's pretty much like being there anyway. Neither camp is going to let either of them not know the whereabouts on the situation..that would be about as dumb..well about as dumb as McCain saying he's stopping his campaign to fix the issue.

So you want your president standing over the Secy of Defense/CENTCOM while they discuss the detalls of an emergency in Iraq that requires a tactical response.

and standing over the Sec of Homeland Security/FEMA whil they discuss the details of responding to a hurricane.

and standing over the Sec of State while she is on the phone with a foreign leader discussing how to respond to a potential flair up on the Russia/Georgia border.

WAIT!!!! What if they are all happening at the same time?

AN EFFECTIVE AND CONFIDENT LEADER delegates to others and has a process in place to be kept in the loop and informed....and engaged when necessary!

First, it's not hyperinflation. We have some inflation, but AFAIK, it's not even as bad as it was in the 70s. Calling it hyperinflation is just fearmongering. Second, it is McCain that's engaging in partisan bullshit. He says he won't debate unless there's a deal on the bailout, then he decides to debate anyway. He says he'll suspend his campaign, then doesn't. He tells Letterman he has to go to DC but is actually interviewing with Katie Couric. Meanwhile, it's Obama who holds himself above politics, not wanting to inject himself in a discussion where his presence will more likely harm negotiations, and being humble enough to realize there isn't much he can contribute. And when he arrives, he actually contributes rather than sitting there like a bump on a log.

I think the political game plan is to lower expectations so that afterward the press can talk about how well they did instead of not as well as expected.

I agree. I also think it's getting to the point of being absurd. If it keeps going like this where does it end? Campaigns announcing on election night "We are so going to get creamed, we're talking land side for the other side."

hyperinflation?

this is hyperinflation (quick and easy version):
Commanding Heights : The German Hyperinflation, 1923 | on PBS