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Tully Mars 05-06-2008 05:07 AM

May 6 IN & NC Primaries (was Today's Primaries)
 
Today primaries are being held in North Carolina and Indiana.

Any one care to predict the out come and what effect it will have on the nomination?

I think Obama takes N.C. by just over 5% and I think Clinton cleans his clock in Ind. by nearly 10%. And I think this means the whole thing goes to the convention.

ottopilot 05-06-2008 06:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tully Mars
Today primaries are being held in North Carolina and Indiana.

Any one care to predict the out come and what effect it will have on the nomination?

I think Obama takes N.C. by just over 5% and I think Clinton cleans his clock in Ind. by nearly 10%. And I think this means the whole thing goes to the convention.

That's a fair prediction. I think Clinton will spin a 5% loss in N.C. to sound like they did much better than was expected. I see Hillary going kicking and screaming all the way.

ratbastid 05-06-2008 06:29 AM

I know the polls don't bear it out--and I may be operating in an echo chamber here--but MAN does a 5% win for Obama not reflect what I'm hearing on the street here in NC. Everyone I know is passionately for him. ALL the black people I know are voting for him no matter what. My immediate crowd of generally young white friends is for him. I don't know anybody who's a Hillary supporter. If we went just by yard signs, Obama would win 3 to 1.

For SURE Hillary will spin whatever happens as a massive victory. She's already talking about how far she came from behind in Indiana, despite having been ahead or even in every single poll ever taken there. If Obama does trounce her in NC, she'll write us off as another small boutique state that doesn't matter. :rolleyes:

There was no line at all at my polling place at 7:25 this morning. And I voted on an electronic machine for the first time in my career as a citizen--a non-Diebold machine (I asked) with a voter-verified papertrail device built into it. Pretty cool.

dc_dux 05-06-2008 06:41 AM

I'm predicting Obama by 7-10 in NC...

...and Clinton by less than 5 in IN. I would not be shocked if Obama wins IN, particularly if there is a much stronger than expected turnout in Gary and Indy (incl. upscale Marion).

I think polls and pundits are undercounting new registrations and first time voters in both states...these are probably 2:1 for Obama.

Tully Mars 05-06-2008 06:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratbastid
I know the polls don't bear it out--and I may be operating in an echo chamber here--but MAN does a 5% win for Obama not reflect what I'm hearing on the street here in NC. Everyone I know is passionately for him. ALL the black people I know are voting for him no matter what. My immediate crowd of generally young white friends is for him. I don't know anybody who's a Hillary supporter. If we went just by yard signs, Obama would win 3 to 1.

For SURE Hillary will spin whatever happens as a massive victory. She's already talking about how far she came from behind in Indiana, despite having been ahead or even in every single poll ever taken there. If Obama does trounce her in NC, she'll write us off as another small boutique state that doesn't matter. :rolleyes:

There was no line at all at my polling place at 7:25 this morning. And I voted on an electronic machine for the first time in my career as a citizen--a non-Diebold machine (I asked) with a voter-verified papertrail device built into it. Pretty cool.


I keep hearing and reading that Obama needs to be ahead in the exit polls by like 6 or 7 just to break even. Do you think thats true and if so why?

ratbastid 05-06-2008 07:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tully Mars
I keep hearing and reading that Obama needs to be ahead in the exit polls by like 6 or 7 just to break even. Do you think thats true and if so why?

I haven't heard that.

Lasereth 05-06-2008 07:38 AM

I voted last week in NC. I agree with ratbastid, everybody I know is voting Obama here. But you guys are right, Hillary will transform it into false momentum like she's been doing since January.

Can someone explain something very simple to me: if Hillary wins every remaining state 65-35 against Obama, she will still lose the delegate count, even with her superdelegates. So why is she still in the race? She can't win the remaining states 65-35, so why waste her time and money?

ratbastid 05-06-2008 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lasereth
Can someone explain something very simple to me: if Hillary wins every remaining state 65-35 against Obama, she will still lose the delegate count, even with her superdelegates. So why is she still in the race? She can't win the remaining states 65-35, so why waste her time and money?

Well, that's not really fair, though. Because it's very unlikely Obama will hit the magic number of 2024 just on elected delegates. It's going to come down to the superdelegates, where Clinton's support has been very very strong for years, though it's obviously fallen off dramatically since Super Tuesday.

She's basically hoping that her claim (which she has retracted, then claimed again) that Obama is unelectable, or at least the weaker candidate against McCain, will scare Supers into voting for her at the convention. That hasn't been working, and her insistence on doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results has many people questioning her sanity.

Want to hear surreal, this morning I heard the following words uttered on my local "we play everything" station: "This is former president Bill Clinton, and you're listening to the Wicker Show on 98.7 Simon!" It's official. The world has lost its mind.

Derwood 05-06-2008 11:15 AM

the reason that "everyone you know" is voting for Obama is for the reason you said: the people you know are young/white or are black. i guess you don't hang out with many older whites or soccer moms

Willravel 05-06-2008 11:16 AM

It'd sure be nice if this whole thing was over. I'm ready to start focusing on McCain.

ratbastid 05-06-2008 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derwood
the reason that "everyone you know" is voting for Obama is for the reason you said: the people you know are young/white or are black. i guess you don't hang out with many older whites or soccer moms

It's true. I don't. Hence the "and I may be operating in an echo chamber here" in my first post on this thread. There's absolutely nothing scientific about my perception here, I completely admit. Still, from my perception, a mere 5% win is hard to imagine.

MuadDib 05-06-2008 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tully Mars
Today primaries are being held in North Carolina and Indiana.

Any one care to predict the out come and what effect it will have on the nomination?

I think Obama takes N.C. by just over 5% and I think Clinton cleans his clock in Ind. by nearly 10%. And I think this means the whole thing goes to the convention.

I agree with the end-results here, but I think you're over shooting on both counts. I say NC to Barak by less than 5 and IN to Clinton 5-9.

By the way, does anyone know what time (EST) their respective polls close?

SecretMethod70 05-06-2008 12:40 PM

Clinton wins IN by under 10, but I'm not sure how much under. Between 5 and 9 is probably a good guess. (I had a dream last night - perhaps nightmare is a more accurate term ;) - that Clinton won IN with 75% of the vote.)

Obama wins NC by more than 5, but I'm not sure how much more. Between 5 and 9 is probably a good guess.

scout 05-06-2008 01:14 PM

The polls here in Indiana close at 6 pm EDT, sorry I have no idea what time they close in North Carolina.

robot_parade 05-06-2008 01:14 PM

/me voted for Obama this morning in NC - no lines, but we had a long, well-advertised early voting period.

Willravel 05-06-2008 01:15 PM

Thanks for voting!

samcol 05-06-2008 01:28 PM

DAMN! The liqour stores are still closed. I voted for Ron Paul at an almost empty precinct in Indiana. I'm guessing Indiana is for Hillary. SCREW YOU OPERATION CHAOS AND YOUR TRAITOR CONSERVATIVES.

dc_dux 05-06-2008 02:07 PM

NC - Obama running away with it....12+
NC - too close to call.....early exit polls show very light turnout in rural IN, which hurts Clinton....final vote could be anywhere from Clinton by 4-5% or Obama by 1%.

loquitur 05-06-2008 02:39 PM

be very very careful about believing exit polls, my friend...........

dc_dux 05-06-2008 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by loquitur
be very very careful about believing exit polls, my friend...........

Its knowing a little bit how to read final pre-election polls and exit polls, my friend....granted it still involves assumptions and a bit of guesswork.

It looks like a 15+ point win for Obama in NC and within 4 points in IN.

The result...with NC having more delegates than IN, it means a significant increase in Obama's delegate lead (as well as in the total popular vote lead).

Clinton had to win big in IN....and come much closer (if not win) in NC.

Its all but over.

samcol 05-06-2008 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dc_dux
Its knowing a little bit how to read exit polls, my friend....granted it still involves assumptions and a bit of guesswork.

It looks like a 15+ point win for Obama in NC and within 4 points in IN.

The result...with NC having more delegates than IN, it means a significant increase in Obama's delegate lead (as well as in the total popular vote lead).

Clinton had to win big in IN....and come much closer (if not win) in NC.

Its all but over.

What about super delegates?

dc_dux 05-06-2008 06:23 PM

With these results, Clinrton has not given the super delegates a reason to swing her way. In increasing numbers over the last few weeks, they have been coming out for Obama...this was all that was needed to pretty much seal it.

All that is left for her is the "nuclear option"....using her slim majority on the DNC rules committee to get the Mich and Fla votes included....in the numbers from the "uncertified" primaries in those states...rather than in a compromise where the MI and FL delegates would be split.

ratbastid 05-06-2008 07:48 PM

At this point, a superdelegate swing to Clinton would be suicide.

Obama by 14! Go NC!

I like how Hil has claimed Indiana even though CNN is calling it "too close to call". I'll bet she thought Gore won Florida before she went to bed that night, too.

Lasereth 05-06-2008 07:57 PM

Drudge is saying 51/49 in indiana right now with 10% votes still uncounted. 2 hours ago it was 60/40.......hmm.......might I wake up to obama winning both states?

SecretMethod70 05-06-2008 08:05 PM

Lake County has started reporting, and they had massive turnout which swung heavily for Obama. It looks like he may likely pull off a win.

And MSNBC is reporting that Clinton has cancelled all appearances for tomorrow.

ratbastid 05-06-2008 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SecretMethod70
And MSNBC is reporting that Clinton has cancelled all appearances for tomorrow.

Ooh! Perhaps saving her voice for a concession phone call?

Willravel 05-06-2008 08:16 PM

I keep thinking to myself... Obama/Edwards '08

SecretMethod70 05-06-2008 08:30 PM

Obama/Richardson please.

Willravel 05-06-2008 08:34 PM

I thought that at first, but I want a more decisive win this time so cheating is impossible. Richardson won't bring nearly as many votes as Edwards.

dc_dux 05-06-2008 08:42 PM

Obama will need to make some show of appeasing Clinton voters.

Obama and a Hillary surrogate - Gov Rendell (PA) or Gov Strickland (OH), both battleground states.

SecretMethod70 05-06-2008 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel
I thought that at first, but I want a more decisive win this time so cheating is impossible. Richardson won't bring nearly as many votes as Edwards.

I don't know...gun-friendly Richardson as the first Hispanic VP?

ottopilot 05-07-2008 04:50 AM

Because of elitist perceptions, an Obama/Edwards ticket may cause a backlash pushing moderates and independents to vote for McCain. Richardson would be a safer bet. we'll see what Hillary does to push for VP.

ratbastid 05-07-2008 05:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ottopilot
Because of elitist perceptions, an Obama/Edwards ticket may cause a backlash pushing moderates and independents to vote for McCain. Richardson would be a safer bet. we'll see what Hillary does to push for VP.

Well, here's the real question, I think: Will McCain run a more honorable campaign than Hillary has?

Obama has suffered at the hands of some dirty personal stuff in the last month, and the main thing that got tarnished was his appearance of being above the fray. He let himself get pulled down into the mud with Hillary--who, frankly, takes to mud like a pig. McCain has promised a respectful contest, which is certainly NOT what Hillary is running. The question for me is, if McCain actually RUNS a respectful contest, will Obama be able to recapture the magic he had back before the run-up to PA? If he can, he doesn't need to worry about losing independents, they'll flock to him like they did after Iowa.

Hillary's the main one crying "elite". The irony of that is shocking, considering the discrepancies between the two candidate's tax returns. McCain has only been echoing that, not leading the way with it. And now all economists are "elite" too. Pretty much if Hillary disagrees with you, you're "elite" and "out of touch". But once she's gone from the campaign, I expect this "elite" nonsense to fade into the background.

loquitur 05-07-2008 05:56 AM

ratbastid, my sense is that it will make no diff what kind of race McCain runs. First of all, he's going to lose no matter what. Second of all, I'll wager that any criticism he makes of Obama of any kind (and yes, I think BHO will be the Dem nominee) will be greeted with calls of "racism." It won't matter that McCain has no hint of racism in his background. That being said, I think McCain will run a pretty clean campaign as these things go; no campaign can ever be clean totally. If he's smart, he'll have Colin Powell as his running mate. Still won't help, though. He's going to lose.

ottopilot 05-07-2008 07:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratbastid
Well, here's the real question, I think: Will McCain run a more honorable campaign than Hillary has?

Obama has suffered at the hands of some dirty personal stuff in the last month, and the main thing that got tarnished was his appearance of being above the fray. He let himself get pulled down into the mud with Hillary--who, frankly, takes to mud like a pig. McCain has promised a respectful contest, which is certainly NOT what Hillary is running. The question for me is, if McCain actually RUNS a respectful contest, will Obama be able to recapture the magic he had back before the run-up to PA? If he can, he doesn't need to worry about losing independents, they'll flock to him like they did after Iowa.

Hillary's the main one crying "elite". The irony of that is shocking, considering the discrepancies between the two candidate's tax returns. McCain has only been echoing that, not leading the way with it. And now all economists are "elite" too. Pretty much if Hillary disagrees with you, you're "elite" and "out of touch". But once she's gone from the campaign, I expect this "elite" nonsense to fade into the background.

ratbastid, I think McCain will run mostly above-board. I also tend to agree with loquitur that (based on what we know now and no surprises) Obama will win the presidency no matter what McCain says or does. McCain's VP choice may have a significant impact on voters, but I don't think it will be enough. Sort of a Jimmy Carter vs. Gerald Ford post-Nixon scenario (IMHO).

ratbastid 05-07-2008 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by loquitur
If he's smart, he'll have Colin Powell as his running mate. Still won't help, though.

Not likely. Powell has been very clear that while he might be interested in some sort of public service position, elected political office isn't something he's interested in. Besides, from everything he's saying lately, he supports .

Now, if Obama can talk him into it, imagine an Obama/Powell ticket. That would be damn near unstoppable. Plus, just for pan's sake, anybody who disagrees with them is DOUBLE racist! :thumbsup:

Willravel 05-07-2008 08:39 AM

Obama/Powell juggernaut. Sounds interesting.

telekinetic 05-07-2008 09:25 AM

Can somebody who knows more about this sort of thing or who has found a a reliable report not based on exit polls summarize factually where we stand after yesterday?

filtherton 05-07-2008 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by loquitur
That being said, I think McCain will run a pretty clean campaign as these things go; no campaign can ever be clean totally. If he's smart, he'll have Colin Powell as his running mate. Still won't help, though. He's going to lose.


I think McCain will run a clean campaign, and he will cry crocodile tears when various privately support groups with vaguely patriotic names drag Obama's name through the mud.

Strange Famous 05-07-2008 09:54 AM

Clinton is such a disaster for the Democrat party.

It has nothing to do with integrity, or policy - simply she is smug and has no charisma. When you listen to her talk you know she could never win a general election.

I think the people who control the final vote need to lean on her pretty hard to pull out now.

SecretMethod70 05-07-2008 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by twistedmosaic
Can somebody who knows more about this sort of thing or who has found a a reliable report not based on exit polls summarize factually where we stand after yesterday?

Factually, where we stand after yesterday is that Obama will be the Democratic nominee. Which is the same factual place we stood after PA, and, really, the same place we stood after TX and OH. Clinton hasn't had a valid path to the nomination for quite some time, but it wasn't (and still isn't) technically impossible. However, what is technically possible is not the same as what is likely. After OH and TX, where Clinton failed to achieve the necessary margins of victory, it was nearly impossible for her to win the nomination without a miracle. Now it's almost certainly impossible - so much so that the news networks, who gain a lot from this race dragging on, are finally starting to talk about how Clinton is done.

The only thing that yesterday truly changed is the media's willingness to continue to misrepresent Clinton's chances.

Borgs 05-07-2008 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by twistedmosaic
Can somebody who knows more about this sort of thing or who has found a a reliable report not based on exit polls summarize factually where we stand after yesterday?

I don't know who you are referring to with "we", but I assume the Democratic nominees?

Obama now needs 172 total delegates to capture the nomination while Clinton needs 326. This means that Clinton has to win 68% of the remaining delegates if she is to pass Obama.

Basically, she's going to go to superdelegates and say, "Please make me the nominee! Please please please! I really want it!"

Ironically, the only way that she can win (barring a colossal collapse by Obama) is if the superdelegates overturn the decision of the voters. For a candidate talking about not disenfranchising voters, this seems a little disingenuous.

SecretMethod70 05-07-2008 10:42 AM

To help put the numbers in perspective, and explain why Clinton winning the nomination was nearly impossible after TX and OH, despite the large number of outstanding delegates available, here's an article from Columbia Journalism Review on the primary schedule, demographics, and the role they play.

Quote:

The Late Great States   click to show 

As Borgs points out, Clinton needs to win 68% of the remaining delegates to win. That's a tall order - nearly impossible based on past performance - but it doesn't give a true representation of where Clinton stands. The demographics play a key role. Obama, for example, will very likely win Oregon, which means the Clinton needs to perform even better than 68% in the other remaining states. You can see how, once demographics are taken into account, not to mention the fact Clinton has only had a couple blowout wins in this entire contest, there's essentially no chance for Clinton whatsoever.

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel
I thought that at first, but I want a more decisive win this time so cheating is impossible. Richardson won't bring nearly as many votes as Edwards.

Kos has what I think is a pretty good assessment of Obama's VP choices...

Quote:

Vice Presidency   click to show 


Strange Famous 05-07-2008 01:53 PM

Newsnight is reporting that Hillary Clinton is almost finished and is close to pulling out... but who knows, maybe she can do some more damage to Obama yet?

dc_dux 05-07-2008 02:04 PM

My guess is that Clinton will hang in for the remaining primaries through June 3, out of a sense of loyalty to her supporters.

But I think we will see a significant change in her tone and tactics that have been contributing to the divide within the party. Both she and Obama will now focus on McCain, rather than each other.

On the VP issue, as much as I would like to see Richardson, I dont think Obama will go that route. Perhaps, Richardson as Sec of State.

VPs dont matter much in terms of bringing voters to the candidate, other than by perception. And I think Obama needs to be perceived as being attentive to the Clinton voters - blue collar whites and seniors. Thats why I think Gov Strickland of OH might be a possibility, along with the fact that he is from a crucial state for Dem to get the electoral number needed. (Dem either needs to win OH or FL...or a combination of NM, CO, IA, VA).

I still like Lee Hamilton, former congressman from Indiana and vice chair of the 9/11 Commission.....he brings even more foreign policy/national security credentials than Richardson.

A new name being buzzed about is General Wesley Clark.

Notice these guys - Strickland, Hamilton, Clark - all old white men....a reassurance for some voters.

samcol 05-07-2008 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dc_dux
My guess is that Clinton will hang in for the remaining primaries through June 3, out of a sense of loyalty to her supporters.

But I think we will see a significant change in her tone and tactics that have been contributing to the divide within the party. Both she and Obama will now focus on McCain, rather than each other.

On the VP issue, as much as I would like to see Richardson, I dont think Obama will go that route. Perhaps, Richardson as Sec of State.

VPs dont matter much in terms of bringing voters to the candidate, other than by perception. And I think Obama needs to be perceived as being attentive to the Clinton voters - blue collar whites and seniors. Thats why I think Gov Strickland of OH might be a possibility, along with the fact that he is from a crucial state for Dem to get the electoral number needed. (Dem either needs to win OH or FL...or a combination of NM, CO, IA, VA).

I still like Lee Hamilton, former congressman from Indiana and vice chair of the 9/11 Commission.....he brings even more foreign policy/national security credentials than Richardson.

A new name being buzzed about is General Wesley Clark.

Notice these guys - Strickland, Hamilton, Clark - all old white men....a reassurance for some voters.

Hamilton is defiently not the type of person I'd be looking for to reverse the trend of the current vice president in regards to 'open' government. His work in the 9/11 commission report was abysmal. Although, I do agree Obama needs an old white man as VP.

dc_dux 05-07-2008 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by samcol
Hamilton is defiently not the type of person I'd be looking for to reverse the trend of the current vice president in regards to 'open' government. His work in the 9/11 commission report was abysmal. Although, I do agree Obama needs an old white man as VP.

I cant disagree with you about the 9/11 commission report. Hamilton shares the blame with the Repub chair Tom Kean.

Hamilton also was co-chair of the Iraq Study Group that offered a reasonable strategy to get the US out of Iraq. As a VP, I could see him as Obama's point man on a redeployment strategy that will start bringing our guys home shortly after the inauguration.

scout 05-08-2008 02:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dc_dux
I cant disagree with you about the 9/11 commission report. Hamilton shares the blame with the Repub chair Tom Kean.

Hamilton also was co-chair of the Iraq Study Group that offered a reasonable strategy to get the US out of Iraq. As a VP, I could see him as Obama's point man on a redeployment strategy that will start bringing our guys home shortly after the inauguration.

No matter who is elected there is no way we can bring our troops home shortly after the inauguration. It ain't gonna happen. Don't fool yourself, don't believe the lie. If we do it will be one of the biggest foreign policy fiasco's in history, bigger than the war in Iraq is/was or will ever be. Sure the current administration lied and fucked up getting us where we are but now that we are there to just pull out will be much much worse. /endhijack

dc_dux 05-08-2008 03:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scout
No matter who is elected there is no way we can bring our troops home shortly after the inauguration. It ain't gonna happen. Don't fool yourself, don't believe the lie. If we do it will be one of the biggest foreign policy fiasco's in history, bigger than the war in Iraq is/was or will ever be. Sure the current administration lied and fucked up getting us where we are but now that we are there to just pull out will be much much worse. /endhijack

I dont expect Obama to bring all the troops home shortly after the inauguration.

I do expect Obama to implement a strategy that will BEGIN the process of drawing down the 140,000+ troops in Iraq and BEGIN a much more active diplomatic process involving ME countries (Saudi, Egypt, Jordan and yes, Iran) towards political and economic stability and reconciliation.

I expect that it will take more than a year, once the process begins, to reduce our presence in Iraq to a very small force level.

The fiasco would be if Obama continued with the current Bush or McCain strategy in Iraq.

Derwood 05-08-2008 05:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Famous
Clinton is such a disaster for the Democrat party.

It has nothing to do with integrity, or policy - simply she is smug and has no charisma. When you listen to her talk you know she could never win a general election.

I think the people who control the final vote need to lean on her pretty hard to pull out now.


she and McCain are two of the worst public speakers i've ever heard run for a national office

ratbastid 05-08-2008 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derwood
she and McCain are two of the worst public speakers i've ever heard run for a national office

Oh, I don't know. In terms of sheer delivery, anyway, they're far better than Bush Sr., and much better than Bush Jr.

But they both sound like Porky Pig next to Obama. Man's presentation and delivery is OUTSTANDING. When I saw him I was literally in the back row of the top balcony of a 3000-person auditorium, and I swear he was talking to ME.

loquitur 05-08-2008 02:04 PM

ratbastid, there is no denying Obama's charisma, but that's not a reason to vote for Obama. There should be other reasons. I can think of other spellbinding orators that I wouldn't want to put in charge of any country.

Willravel 05-08-2008 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by loquitur
ratbastid, there is no denying Obama's charisma, but that's not a reason to vote for Obama. There should be other reasons. I can think of other spellbinding orators that I wouldn't want to put in charge of any country.

I feel a Godwin coming on... http://firstbuildgod.files.wordpress....thumbnail.jpg

Strange Famous 05-08-2008 02:59 PM

RB, I disagree. Bush is a likeable personality.

He might be many things, and might have visited many ills on his nation, but he IS electable.

Hillary Clinton is not.

djtestudo 05-08-2008 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

Dammit...I wanted to do it...:D

Willravel 05-08-2008 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Famous
RB, I disagree. Bush is a likeable personality.

I have to disagree with you on this one. I can get along with some Texans, but Bush is of the type that I don't get along with. He's the cocky, "don't mess with Texas", moronic, white trash with money type. Even without the wiretapping, lying to get us to war, torture, and such, he and I would not get along. Actually, he'd like me (except for my politics) but I wouldn't like him.

Tully Mars 05-08-2008 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratbastid
Oh, I don't know. In terms of sheer delivery, anyway, they're far better than Bush Sr., and much better than Bush Jr.

But they both sound like Porky Pig next to Obama. Man's presentation and delivery is OUTSTANDING. When I saw him I was literally in the back row of the top balcony of a 3000-person auditorium, and I swear he was talking to ME.

Agree.

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel
I have to disagree with you on this one. I can get along with some Texans, but Bush is of the type that I don't get along with. He's the cocky, "don't mess with Texas", moronic, white trash with money type. Even without the wiretapping, lying to get us to war, torture, and such, he and I would not get along. Actually, he'd like me (except for my politics) but I wouldn't like him.


Bush wouldn't like me at all. But then I have a bad habit of telling people exactly what I think.

ratbastid 05-08-2008 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by loquitur
ratbastid, there is no denying Obama's charisma, but that's not a reason to vote for Obama. There should be other reasons. I can think of other spellbinding orators that I wouldn't want to put in charge of any country.

I didn't say it was a reason to vote for him. Jesus Christ. Defensive much?


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