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When does political view become racist in your opinion?
I was recently labeled a "Racist" by a few people here because of a recent post and "past posts". While everyone is entitled to their own opinion and none who labeled me knows anything about me other than what I post here, it made me wonder, when does a political view in your eyes become racist?
Such as ILLEGAL ALIENS.... how is pointing out that I see ILLEGALS as that and that IMHO they have no rights because they are illegal and we legals are watching our own rights erode. But that is racist. Stating that terrorists could be some of those ILLEGALS, that they have bankrupted many of our Western states medical facilities, taken jobs, committed heavier crimes and so on... means nothing. Proof be damned you are a racist and Xenophobe to demand people be actually LEGALLY here in order to get jobs and medical attention and enjoy what rights we have here. I have even stated, you change the laws and I can no longer say anything... but again, that just leads to a racist label. The saddest part is they hound the label and pound it and pound it until you are no longer fighting the issue of ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION but whether or not you are a racist/xenophobic person who does strange things to cats with your fork. And you best keep your cool, don't get emotional .... even though the labeler will because you'll make a mistake, say the wrong thing because they keep twisting everything you say and then they'll have their "proof". This is just an example, I'm sure the thread is out there but I am not going to dig for it. Quote:
I realized recently.... as long as those who can keep that "racist/Xenophobic" argument alive and only have to answer any of the questions with..... "well you're racist/xenophobic" they don't have to truly think about the problem or it's solution. Recently, I became quite pissed because people demanded Bill Cunningham's radio job, called him racist and tried to "Imus" him... why? Not because he said "nappy headed ho" or went on some racist diatribe. No, all Bill did was at a fund raiser in Ohio for McCain, in introducing John McCain, Bill said "Barak Hussein Obama". That's it. McCain even distanced himself from the comment. Who cares? If people want to use his middle name like that? Are you scared, someone in this country may hear the name Hussein (which is Obama's legal middle name) and not vote for the man because of that 1 reason? If so you are about as small minded as a person who would not vote for a man or woman solely because of the middle name. To be demanding Bill Cunningham's job because of that? To me that is hateful and censorship. Because of this I finally made a decision to look up Obama's church. That brought about this post (it's #2) in this thread "http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=132019 ". All of a sudden I'm racist again. It's only an issue to those that are racist looking for reasons not to like Obama.... blah blah blah.... Then I really pay attention and the past week or 2 Obama supporters answer everything by bringing up race when you push political issues with them. Anyway, I want to know your opinion, when does political views becomes racist..... or is it just possible a certain faction of our population has been almost brainwashed to believe that any view differing from theirs must be driven by racism/xenophobia/prejudice of whatever kind they wish to utilize and try to silence that opposing view? And no, the question, I admit is quite biased..... because my opinion is just that, my opinion. I am a firm believer that a certain faction has been brainwashed to believe or just so wanting to "win" yet lack anything to defend their views that all they can do is label and attack the person and not the view. Those people are scary, because they are proving they care more about what the media, what others around them think than facts and either investigating the issue so they can argue without bringing those labels in.... or just stating that they have their view and that's that. I also realize that as long as the powers that be, the politicians and media, can keep these arguments alive no one can expect anything to get done. You can silence people into submission because they are scared they too will be labeled and no one wants labeled... not to mention have their job threatened, their lives microscoped, and so on. |
Your thread title has a question mark, but it's not a question.
It's more a "here's why I'm right, be damned if you don't agree." Perhaps it's not your meaning or your political view which leads some to call you a racist, but your tone? That same tone serves to alienate your audience and makes me (an otherwise sympathetic person who'd likely agree with you) want to disagree, because you've automatically put me on the defensive. I think often the reasons for a political view are racist, but the view itself does not have to be. I can agree with you on "illegal aliens" without being racist, myself, but it requires a greater deal of tact to justify contentious issues surrounding race and ethnicity. I think my best advice would be to acknowledge that these are controversial issues, and unless you develop a greater degree of tact, you'll continue to be labeled a racist, regardless of truth. I felt like I was being yelled at just reading your post, and I couldn't make it all the way through because I don't like being yelled at, nor do I like being made defensive. I wasn't even the one this was aimed at, and yet I'm turned away. |
Legality is a formality built on a belief. Most people believe murder is wrong, so we've made laws which punish it. Most people believe theft is wrong, so we've made laws to punish it. Something merely being illegal does not make it inherently wrong, though, it's the believe that makes that determination.
So, in other threads when we discuss that particular issue, why must you always simply say that it's wrong because it's illegal? What if giving birth were illegal or free speech? Pan, why should undocumented immigration be illegal? |
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I simply want to know how others feel. I would also like to know why they feel that way? Again, that is why I shared my personal experiences and opinions, so that others may. I am a little pissed people who don't know me or anything about me can call me racist here just because of political views but I think given that one is being labeled something because of their views and the fact that it is used everywhere (just listen to Limbaugh today) to silence people. I just don't understand how having a different political viewpoint these days is now racist and one is battered with the label into silence has become the norm and OK...... that is a very dangerous way to show support and defend your views. I'm sorry you felt yelled at. That was not my point. You can't just label someone racist because they have questions about Obama, or xenophobic because they point out ILLEGALS are ILLEGALS... and so on. Or can you? Do you believe that everyone against ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION should be labeled? Or everyone who openly speaks out against Obama? Those labels to me are not to be used as lightly as some use them. It's truly become an "if I can't defend on merit, I'll just call you truly nasty names, in some cases like Bill Cunningham's, threaten jobs, and so on" and it is allllll ok because I then justified my views". No one finds that train of thought wrong or scary? People would rather just use this as more of an example of proof that I am racist, you are xenophobic or he/she is unpatriotic? I fear for the country and this thinking that it is ok is worse than anything Bush has done, Clinton/Bush/Reagan/Carter and all the way back has ever done since the Civil War.... because this thinking separates us more than it will ever bring us together and we can never solve any problems if we remain so divided and are so willing to throw out labels. It's just as bad as when the GOP questions people's patriotism for speaking out against their policies and beliefs and can't find true defenses. It is not common to just one party. |
personally, i react pretty strongly to arguments that i see as racist--i could go through an list attributes, but i dont have the time at the moment (mea culpa)--i think that perfectly regular, not mean-spirited or inclined to be racist folk can find themselves sliding into problematic areas pretty easily if they construct or adopt a view/argument that enables it.
so in general, if i adopt that tack in a debate, it's directed against the argument--call me pollyanna, but i dont think there are that many people who make such claims who are explicitly racist--in other words, i think that dispositional racism is a subset---but arguments that float out there in the world--especially about categories that i find worthless--and "illegal immigrant" or "illegal alien" is one of them---these structure and enable racist conclusions. that's my tack anyway. it often turns out that this distinction--the argument/the speaker--gets lost somehow when everything that is said is taken personally. i dont take this stuff terribly personally--it's like chess. taking it personally seems a surefire stressor. there's enough stressors in the world. |
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This thread is about being labeled for political beliefs different than your own. |
As an illustrative exercise, I tried to go through and word your post such that the tone wasn't so aggressive. You might see this as making yourself "PC", but I see it as just common sense. If you want a message to have effect, if you want people who disagree with you to agree, you have to word it in such a way that allows them to. If you don't leave them an avenue to "save face," or if you attack them in a generalized sense before they've even finished reading, they will not agree. Even your use of capitalization is antagonistic, and serves not to assist your point, but to actually work against you. Please don't take this as an effort to chastise you, as I did it for myself as much as you - to see the effect that the tone of your post actually had on me.
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You know, pan, some people get offended if you fart too loudly while facing southeasterly in a 15mph headwind. Some people weep copious tears if they step on a few ants. You have your conservatives, and you have your liberals and never the twain shall meet. I've read your posts here long enough to know your not a racist, so those that called you one...eh, that's their fscking problem not yours.
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I suppose, but again, I brought forth the personal experiences to backup my opinions. To demonstrate how and why I was labeled and why I feel that those are empty attacks (but extremely hateful).
I want people to use their own experiences in this thread, as I did, to support THEIR opinion and beliefs on this issue. I also have enough experience here to know people would be wanting examples and so on. So give it to them. I put examples in, demonstrate how I came to my conclusion and now that is wrong. It seems no one is happy with how any one has views differing their own these days. Again, it is not to disparage anyone, I mentioned no names, indicted no one as a labeler. I simply gave experience, examples and reasons I have come to my opinion's conclusion. Right or wrong.... to me it is right (obviously) I stand by it 110%. I expect if others get through this far they may share their experience and how they have come to their opinion's conclusion. The semantics of my OP does not change the Title question....... When does political view become racist in your opinion? ..... unless you allow it to and thus you may focus on that and in the end express no opinion on the topic. I look forward to your opinion Jinn. Take what you want out of the OP ignore it totally... I don't care, it is long and not needed for some.... BUT what is your view on the Topic though? |
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I mention Obama has befitted from being Black in his campaign, its racist. I say I don't think Islam is a religion that plays well with others, its racist (though which race that is they never mention). Its pretty much a catch all for some people who don't want to discuss a subject on its merits. As soon as the group is non-white, and especially if it involves the culture of a non-white, saying anything negative comes under the racist moniker and speaking of it is verboten. Ignore them and soldier on :thumbsup: |
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When does political view become racist in your opinion? (It's not just racist, it's patriotism, nationalism, etc any label) What is your opinion? Do people use it legitimately or to silence the opposition so that they do not have to truly defend their views? But I do appreciate a fellow Ghoul General's good words. |
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My take is that the vast majority of the residents of this country are, at the very least, descendants of immigrants. Some of our great-grandparents, grandparents or parents came here illegally, some came legally. But they all came for the same reason. Our forefathers understood this and the originating concept was that this was to be a land of freedom. Although some of the rules have been changed whether we like them or not, it's not comfortable to see/hear your constant references to ILLEGALS ARE ILLEGAL. PERIOD. Although you may not mean it that way, it kinda rings of racism, although I've never called you one. Between the lines, it seems to say that the stories and the people don't matter, this is my country and they don't belong. I'm only speaking for myself here. My other responses to you remain in the other thread, so I won't bring old baggage into the mix. |
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Ignoring it personally is easy and at times amusing because it solidifies your own opinion more. However: Watching them destroy someone simply because he called a man by his WHOLE name isn't. Watching as the issues not get solved because people are too busy throwing labels around is not. Watching someone get elected president solely because anyone speaking out against him is called racist for truly no legit reason isn't easy. Watching people use labels to "win" policy, isn't easy. Those are very scary reasons to find ways to get people to stop using labels and to start truly arguing issues on their merits and working to find solutions and compromises. Being called a racist/xenophobe/having my patriotism questioned by someone does not truly make me want to find compromise or find any solution than to fight harder and longer for my views. Like I said it's not just the Left/Right... it seems to be the easiest way for many to get out of having to defend their views and opinions. |
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I gave examples of how I raised issues, argued issues and was labeled and the argument ended. It is a problem that is not just people picking on me, but a cheap way to win discussions on issues... or do you feel it is legit..... or where exactly is that line where one can ask about an issue debate it and not get labeled by the other side? Again, THIS THREAD IS NOT ABOUT ME..... IT IS NOT MEANT TO STROKE MY EGO OR BEAT ME DOWN..... IT IS TO GET YOUR VIEWS ON THE THREAD'S TOPIC. Sorry I yelled, but I am no longer defending what I typed in the OP. If people want to use it to call me racist or to tell me I'm not.... fine. If people want to believe I'm just being pissy fine. Ignore the OP and just answer the Title question. Quote:
EXACTLY. |
In issues of immigration and religion, it'll always be an issue. People will accuse others of being racist over issues of illegal immigration, but they'll seek out and live in an all-white or all-black or all-(same ethnicity) neighborhood. They'll put their kids in better school districts if they can afford to, while voting a straight liberal ticket their entire lives. They'll dress themselves a certain way, speak a certain way, pray a certain way, dance a certain way, drink certain things, go to certain restaurants, go to/stay away from certain parts of town, entertain themselves a certain way, all their friends will be a certain way....people make discriminating choices on a daily basis...but call them racist for doing so and you offend their sensibilities. They want to think they're too sophisticated, tolerant and non-judgmental, but in my experience they're just as opinionated as the next person, they just try to hide it as best they can. It's one of life's dirty little secrets. My 2 cents.
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The same thing happens to me when I argue against abortion. People assume that I'm a pro-life fundy because that's the typical reasoning, but I'm special. You're special, too! :thumbsup: Had you explained adequately how your reasoning was not motivated by nationality, but rather something else, I think that the cries of racism would have been silenced. Oh, and capitalizing ILLEGAL bothers a lot of people because it sounds more like an angry rant than discussion. |
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Again Will reopen the thread or open a new one..... THIS IS NOT THE PLACE. Please, give your opinion on the Title question, I truly would like to hear it. |
pan....when opinions in posts are based on false assumptions or misrepresentation of the facts (ie Obama/church/pastor or illegals dont pay taxes)
..or when opinions are so simplistic (ie Obama benefits from black votes because he is black, Koran endorses killing infidels), they ignore the broader context ...it is not wrong to point those facts out..but it is not a personal attack or a characterization of the poster as a racist. One's political views may not be racist, but the word used to back up those views may have a racist connotation to some viewers. I hope you can appreciate the difference. IMO, if you and Ustwo feel you are being persecuted for your views, perhaps you should examine your words more closely and objectively to see how they MAY be perceived by others as false, misleading and, if taken out of context, appear to some to be racists in their tone. That still is not the same as calling you (or Ustwo) racists. |
First, if false points are used and brought to light with the truth there should never be a problem. The problem becomes labeling others.
SEE POST 15 ======= I'm too tired of typing the same damn thing. Quote:
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And I'm tired of typing the same damn thing. |
hahahahahahahahahahhah
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Immigration status is not a "race". I think some use the term "race" to quickly try to dismiss a point worthy of discussion rather than engaging in a meaningful exchange. There are many other labels used in a similar fashion, and I admit that I have done it to others saying something like "...is just a Bush hater..." It does get frustrating but when we get beyond those simplistic labels, occasionally there is some meaningful exchanges.
I have read a lot of what you have written Pan, and we disagree on most issues, but I don't perceive you to be a racist at all. |
For me, it is all about the adjective used. In this example, you used the adjective "illegal" rather than an adjective like "Mexican" or "Asian" or "European". I tend to believe that you are using the adjective you meant to use rather than one that might sound better or be a more correct euphemism for what you really meant. In other words, until I seem some evidence that you were hiding a racist belief between the more politically correct term I am not going to assume anything.
Of course, I fall on the same side of this argument as you seem to so for me illegal really means illegal because I could care less where someone is from as long as they came here by legal means. Due to this, I might not see things the same way as others. You have managed to hit on one of the biggest issues in America today. Namely that it is easier to get what you want by making people afraid of how they might appear if they oppose you then by convincing them it is the right thing to do. |
Are you really expecting an answer to this question? As if there is a watermark when someone becomes a racist?
I come here just like you, pan, I speak frankly and I state my observations. In this case, observations that were not made over the course of a thread, but over the course of many threads perused over the last 2+ years. Now, I am a brainwashed tool of the media which is, I think, quite a bit more out of left field than my own observation about you. That being that I got the impression from your posting here that you have reactionary issues with race and culture that could colloquially be referred to as racist. And, like dc, I suggested that perhaps you might reflect on why it is that people are seeing you in that way. But I see you've been too busy stoking the fires of righteous indignation to bother with that sort of trivial business. You can call me whatever you like, pan, and I will accept what is true, dismiss what is patently false, and dwell on the things that give me pause. I'm not about to start a thread decrying my labelling as a brainwashed media tool because that one I can dismiss. Perhaps you should do the same. |
Well, I'd have to say that in answering this OP, or what I think pan wants to be the heart of this OP, I'd say you have to consider overt racism, and institutionalized or subconscious racism. I think it's pretty rare to find people on these boards who are overtly racist. I hate niggers, jews, spics, and chinks. Keep the bloodlines pure. Restrict access to public facilities and functions to a particular racial makeup. I think it's more common to find attitudes that might have racist tendencies, or racist underpinnings. Many of us have beliefs that could have some aspects which are inherently racist, or sexist, or homo/hetero phobic (for example). I don't know that these beliefs would make the particular poster a racist, sexist, or homo/heterophobe (for example)...but rather that some aspects of their political/philosophical beliefs have tendencies in those directions, or that don't fully make sense outside of that perspective. I think it most often comes from not thinking a policy or position all the way through, on the side of the labeller,or the labellee. A poster might have a perspective based on their particular experiences, or in light of a particular issue; however, they might not think about how their stance on that issue has greater implications to social or political situations.
As such, I tend not to think that person is overtly racist, unless they post in that vein. I might, however, feel that a person's position has racist tendencies or underpinnings depending on how they present their opinion. |
Political views become racist when they refuse to recognize the basic rights, needs, and dignity of people based on their race and/or geographic origin.
It's quite simple, really. |
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I don't make the laws, the government does. If people have to do certain things to gain employment, benefits, etc to be considered "legally here" then those are the laws. People who just cross the border in the dead of the night, pack into semi trailers to sneak across, and so on and refuse to do what was needed to be done to be LEGAL are here ILLEGALLY. That means their first act in this country was to break a law. They are criminals. I do not care that they come here seeking better lives. If they wanted to come here that badly they could have done it LEGALLY. If I go 100 in a 25, I am ILLEGALLY driving. I am committing a crime. I know I am committing a crime. There are punishments and consequences to my actions and I must face them and take responsibility for my ILLEGAL actions. I answered it before I answered it now........ Will if you want to continue this OPEN A NEW/OLD THREAD. This is not what this thread is about but you refuse to let it go. Quote:
But, some do not do that, that is my point. Some instead of looking for weakness in an opposing view and arguing on that.... begin taking easy routes and start labeling. That is the point. Quote:
It is easier to label, promote hatred and destroy any chance of compromise or learning from each other, than it is to open your mind, look at what is being said, state the differences and try to find compromise or at the very least offer insight as to why you believe what you believe. |
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Until you answer that, your motives are still a mystery and people fill in the blank with the reason people who make similar arguments present which is usually rooted in racism or xenophobia. Not only that, but until you answer that, there's no discussion. If you said, for example, they're taking jobs, then that could be argued and countered based on facts. If you said that they steal, we could argue that on it's merits. All you say is "it's ILLEGAL". Considering that in Texas, it's against the law for anyone to have a pair of pliers in his or her possession, laws aren't the end all be all of reason. They're a response to a reason. ILLEGAL ≠ A REASON. BTW, I don't think you're a racist. I don't know what you have against undocumented guests, but I don't think it's rooted in racism. I suspect it may be rooted in an emotional response to something, judging by the tone of your posts, but again, I don't think you're a racist. |
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Buy and read please. (And I can't believe I'm plugging a book by Geraldo.) Quote:
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See but if you do not state what observations you make when a person says, "I'm not racist, why do you say that." And you choose to just say "because and I'm not going to waste time." How is one to learn how they got that label in your eyes? How does one learn to maybe correct themselves? Asking someone to "figure it out" when they obviously do not see a problem does not solve any problem but creates bigger ones. But what do I know? Quote:
WILL FOR THE FUCKING LOVE OF GOD DROP IT OR OPEN A NEW THREAD. |
Pan, you spent the entire first section of your opening post talking about illegal immigration (sorry, ILLEGAL immigration). It's perfectly fair for people to address those points you brought up. If you didn't want that subject to be discussed, you shouldn't have brought it up.
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Your thread is essentially bipolar: "Why do you guys think I'm racist? (I'M NOT A FUCKING RACIST, THEY'RE ILLEGAL...I'M RIGHT AND YOU'RE WRONG... ARG!!!)" Which is it, honestly asking why people thought you may be racist, or righteous yelling and screaming and repeating your arguments from another thread? |
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To keep harping that I am trying to make this about me and blah blah blah... is bullshit. That would not teach us anything. That would help to solve nothing. That is not my purpose. I am trying to find out why people are quick to label, why people are quick to change the topic and instead of trying to promote a learning, positive atmosphere of sharing, when they instead create a defensive, hate filled negative atmosphere of closed mindedness. But you believe what you want. Having read some answers here I see that some people truly understand and really didn't even have me in their responses at all. Which is what I desire. This thread is not about me, it is trying to bring out an issue, discuss it and try to understand it from others viewpoints. PS I opened a new thread. |
A political view become racist when... oh wait...:
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My take on this thread.
Poor pan as the charred remains inside the truck. Besieged on all sides by Obama supporters, and ultimately eaten. Pan, we hardly knew Ye. <embed src="http://www.encyclomedia.com/video/EMplayer.swf?playVar=2810|2595989|2680627|1" width="360" height="280" align="middle" quality="high" bgcolor="#ffffff" allowScriptAccess="sameDomain" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" pluginspage="http://www.macromedia.com/go/getflashplayer" /><br><a href="http://www.encyclomedia.com/video-night_of_living_dead.html" style="text-decoration: none"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" color="0000FF"><strong>Watch <em>Night of Living Dead</em> at EncycloMedia.com</strong></font></a><br><br> |
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Everyone is inherently "racist"/xenophobic at some level, and that's never going to change... I've had to recognize this myself, based on my visceral, unadulterated reactions to working in the Philly ghetto and other places where I have felt uncomfortable (and still went on doing my work, mind you). I understand that humans have those kinds of visceral reactions... it's a built-in defense mechanism (fear had a purpose, back in the day) in our species. However, to me, the ethics of racism/xenophobia comes down to what you do with your own personal racism, and how much you allow it to dictate your behavior and words towards people who are different from you. Does it stand in the way of human compassion and a recognition of universal human rights? If so, then I might not call you a racist, but I might call you an asshole. Because I don't believe that any one of us is less deserving than another person on this earth, of the opportunity to have a decent, secure, long life. Whatever other proxies you may use to measure those perceived differences between individual humans (legality, citizenship, language, name, education, class, and yes, even skin color, in every single country in the world, it remains a problem), I will not agree with you. There are no proxies, in my book. We are all human here. Nobody deserves to be treated like shit, or to live in a country full of shit. If I lived in those conditions and had a family to provide for, I'd cross that border as soon as humanly possible, legality be damned. |
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Look inward first. Why were you so quick to label Obama and his church? "There is no way in Hell I am voting for a man that goes to a church that "wants to divide my country further and promotes a race ancestry and foreign continent over my own country..."How did that promote a learning, positive atmosphere of sharing rather than a defensive, hate filled negative atmosphere of closed mindedness? |
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Nobody ever said there were not a lot of outdated laws on the books but those are easy to identify in most cases. Your example above is perfect. The law about pliers in Texas made perfect sense back 100 years when cattle theft was an issue and pliers were required to do the job. However, you do not have to understand why it ever made sense to know that it no longer makes sense or that it is no longer enforced. The same is true about illegal immigration. It makes sense in this day and age to have an immigration path. Going around that path is, by definition, illegal and calling it that should not make anyone anything other than a supporter of the law. It does not imply that you agree or disagree (or the "why" behind said agreement or disagreement) with the law but rather only that you recognize it as such. I will agree that without an explanation of motive there is no discussion but assumptions about why Pan considers illegal immigrants illegal have to stop with it being a violation of the law. Anything beyond that tells me more about the person making the assumption than it does Pan. |
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No, what I'm saying is that they do. It's a reality. I'm not excusing it, but there you have it. For example: don't drink the water in Mexico. I'm not excusing their lack of water treatment infrastructure, but it's simply a reality. |
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Unless I misunderstand what you are saying. |
Sir.....it is a common practice here that when you pose a question in the OP, asking for opinions of others:
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Further, when the same poster decries labeling and a defensive, hate filled negative atmosphere: Quote:
And I dont think Pan is a racist either but I would like an explanation for his double standards. |
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dc,
I understand and I agree. My point is that while Pan may not have followed "best practices" for something like this he did not ask to have assumptions laid on him either. It is rather like going jogging alone after dark in a city park where there are few people around. It is not the smartest thing to do but if you are attacked you are still the victim and attacker is still the criminal. Should Pan have provided more insight into his opinion? Probably. Did his lack of doing so justify being labeled a racist? Not in my opinion. That is all I am saying. |
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So if you truly object to being labeled something, you either ignore the person labeling you or you work to determine WHY they arrived at that label and avoid those "why" behaviors. As I indicated to pan in beginning of this thread, I think it has to do with his choice of words and his defensive attitude. He can either ignore it, and he can work to avoid it, if being called "racist" really bothers him. And again, you might call this a threadjack Pan, but as I warned you in my first posts, your OP was not specifically about "when is something racist" - it was also a rant about being personally labeled, and you cannot expect people to ignore it, despite your repeatedly protesting that "THATS NOT WHAT THIS THREAD IS ABOUT." Controlling your OP is much easier than controlling the ensuing reaction. |
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That characterization is his own interpretation of the comments on his posts made by others. At worst, some may have suggested that his choice of words may be perceived as having racist connotations. |
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But..... I guess being called one isn't the same as being labeled as one. :shakehead: |
So apparently my last post was worth ignoring, even though it was actually addressing the issue. Not that I'm at all surprised.
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See how easy it is to play this game? :thumbsup: |
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No, I am not saying that Mexico is ALL shit, yes it is beautiful, the food is good, people are nice, etc etc. But I am saying that quality of life there, for MOST people, is shit... and that there isn't a whole lot of incentive to staying around and living in shit. |
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All I have seen is your defensive, reactionary response to posts that question your choice of words and your subsequent interpretation that some persons are implying that you are racist. |
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For my part, I thoroughly clarified and quantified my remarks on the thread that prompted this exercise in self-righteousness. I have never called pan a racist solely because of his opinion on illegal imigration. I have stated several times that it is the accumulation of observations made over the course of time that made me think that he has reactionary tendencies when it comes to issues of race that could easily be interpreted as racist - and have been.
Of course, it's much easier to douse the fires of one's self-immolation if you just pretend that they are being vicitimized for having a particular viewpoint on one particular political issue. Maybe if I use this technique: IT IS THE EMOTIONAL CONTENT - THE ANGER AND OUTRAGE - THAT PAN EXHIBITS CONCERNING CERTAIN SUBJECTS (THAT, COINCIDENTALLY OR NOT, HAPPEN TO INVOLVE NON-WHITE RACES AND CULTURES AND THE PRESERVATION OF UNDEFINED 'AMERICAN PRIDE' ISSUES) THAT I HAVE OBSERVED MULTIPLE TIMES THAT PROMPTED ME TO SAY WHAT I DID. And I have yet to be inspired to think otherwise. Thanks. |
I am not sure what I have to add to this other than Jinn's posts on this thread are bang on, in my opinion. I have tried to make this same point to other members of the forum that have similar issues (and I have often wanted to edit a post in just the same fashion).
Passion is a good thing but not when it obfuscates meaning and clarity. I would also like to add that Abaya's post (#38) should be read again if you didn't. There is much being said there that is quite important to the central question of this thread. |
Indeed. Abaya is 100% correct: everyone has a tendancy to be xenophobic. It's human nature. It's what we do about that tendancy that matters.
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actually, SM, I'd put it differently. Everyone has a tendency to be ethnocentric. Xenophobia is a very strong way to put it, and I just see too much natural curiosity and openness in people to accept that "everyone is xenophobic." However, it is certainly true that people view the world through the prism of their own background and experience, and usually are most comfortable with people from that background and type of experience - which is why they are certainly ethnocentric.
Just a slight word difference, but I think it's significant. |
Fair enough, I can agree with that. Closely related, but I do recognize that there is a difference.
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The game I'm talking about is the 'Thats racist' game. To be clear, their is only on reason Mexico is shit, and thats the Mexicans, they run the country and it apparently sucks over all according to you. Me, personally, I don't know enough about how sucky it is over all, its been a LONG time since my last visit. So this is where we teeter on the edge of what makes a comment factual vrs what makes a comment racist, and how easy it is to claim someone is being a racist. |
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How about 2 posts down from you to begin with. |
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You're also neglecting the role of international trade agreements, farm subsidies, colonial leftover crap, and all the rest of the complicated strands that must be part of any explanation of why some countries are poorer than others. Of course some of that has to do with the faults of the political system and the administration of the country, but that's certainly not a condition limited to Mexico. We are all in a world system here (see Wallerstein), and it operates according to certain rules to maintain the status quo. The quality of the residents of a country has nothing to do with that country's Gini coefficient. I don't think anyone in their right mind would believe that the shitty administration of a country makes everyone who lives in that country equivalent to shit. It certainly contributes to making a shitty quality of life for those people, as I've said repeatedly, but if you think that automatically makes the people themselves shit... well, wow. We're obviously not going to get anywhere on this discussion, surprise surprise. Meanwhile, Pan is still going on about being called a racist. If this thread is really what you say it is about, could you respond to my post back there, which was actually responding to your OP (#38)? |
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It seems clear to me what she said...that you sometimes demonstrate "reactionary tendencies...that could be interpreted...." Is that calling you a racist?....certainly if you choose to see it that way. Unfortunately, you still dont see how some of your more inflammatory posts might feed the interpretation....how it could be "easily interpreted as racist". Strike one.....so where are the other two that called you racist? Or was that just another overreaction? Quote:
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you know, pan, there is a long string of posts that have responded to your opening move and that you seem not to feel moved to address here. the arguments converge on questions of political argument and the ways in which those arguments enable or make problematic a slide toward racist conclusions. the problem, then, really, lay in the type of arguments.
within that, you have ms media's post and baraka guru's, which you can line up against each other and use to pose questions to yourself and your relation to these arguments. and then you have abaya's posts--which i am not sure i agree with exactly---but no matter, its more at the level of word choice than claim--(i agree with loquitor more about the term adjustment) that you could use to think about motive, and how yours might not be particular, but something that we all kinda share and all deal with in our own ways. if the point of the thread was as you said it was, trying to work out *why* you find yourself making claims that are interpreted at racist on certain issues, i think you have your answer. but you seem to want to dance a different dance. i dont really understand what you are doing. |
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The issue isn't about xenophobia, or even racism its about people using the racist card to get out of having to defend a position or using it to attack someone else. I showed how I could easily dismiss your stance as racist if I wanted to, because you obviously think Mexicans are incapable of running their own country. (AND JUST SO YOU GET THE POINT, I don't REALLY think you think that I am showing how it would be easy to twist what you said, call you a racist, and dismiss anything else you had to say) |
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What I *have* said is that anyone who cannot take universal human rights, the status quo of the current world system, etc. into consideration when dealing with complex issues such as "illegal" immigration, is what I consider to be an asshole (and yes, we're all assholes, but as the joke goes... you either know that you're an asshole, or you don't... and I'm talking about those who don't know). But that has nothing to do with whether or not I think he/she is racist. That was my point, way back where... do you agree or disagree with that? |
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And why? Because the term racism has been watered down to the point where the definition itself, means nothing anymore. People are too sensitive. We live in a world where entitlement means we can never be criticized no matter how warranted and if we pursue our opinions, well guess what, we get labelled. People using those labels are scapegoating the arguement usually because they don't like what they hear. Sometimes the truth is very painful. Or because they fail to understand implicit meaning of what is being said due to misguided societal discourse that has entrenched itself into the collective psyche of what's supposedly acceptable and what isn't. It's not to say racism doesn't exist. But in my experiences there are alot more people who are ignorant rather than racist. I've lived, worked and visited various hotspots in the world and honestly, I've met very few racists. |
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