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Your phrasing was biased, obviously occupation without end is not desirable, and it should be telling to you that 1/3rd don't seem to mind that. But if you really believe it, keep the moonbats loud and in front, I want every one of those types to be marching, protesting, waving signs, and making speeches. People are voting against republicans, not FOR democrats, and the more the democrats remind people who they really are the better for the republicans :) |
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Every poll, on nearly every issue (including Iraq war, but perhaps not national security), the people prefer Democrats over Republicans. Ah...but you, like the Bush mouthpieces in the WH press office and the right wing talking heads, dont care about polls....unless they support your position. |
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Look, Will...take a survey of the veterans just on this board. There are many of us. Ask us how many were blatantly lied to. I'm not talking about just having details glossed over. I mean actually out and out lied to. I'll start you off. I was not lied to by my recruiter. I knew exactly what I was getting into. And I'll bet so did the majority of the rest of ex-service members here. |
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I knew perfectly well what I was getting into when I signed up. It was part of being an educated adult who couldn't afford college and wanted to embark on a life-changing adventure to gain skills and experiences that the civvie system will never be able to provide. It was part of joining the military after 9/11 and dealing with Bush's trigger-happy get-them-evil-doers policies. My recruiter told me I could either be a paratrooper or get a huge cash bonus. I still took the wings. My recruiter told me I would be deployed after basic. I knew damn well that meant a year in sunny downtown (city), Iraq. I knew it meant stepping into an atom smasher and coming out a different man. I was never lied to once during the entire US Army recruiting process. I get the feeling they don't have to lie much. The job really sells itself. The military was the easiest (or dumbest?) job I ever had. |
So...
100% of the military veterans surveyed, were not lied to. Granted...it's only two of us, so far, but that's still 100%. Statistics don't lie. They are...say it with me...facts. |
I was approached by a recruiter while in ortho school.
I don't think he was lying when he told me, "well you won't get paid much but you won't have to do a lot of work either". I don't think they wanted me for my marksmanship though :sad: |
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Go figure. Quote:
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Story of my life. Quote:
Fallacy? Sure, I'm one man... but I was immersed in the system for four long years. You witness a lot of things. Recruitments. Reenlistment. All sorts of magic. Are there statistics that quantify the bullshit present in the recruitment process? Maybe. Are they scientific enough to be any kind of proof? Definitely not. ... We did have some guy try to kill himself with his bootlaces. His gripe? His recruiter gave him exactly what he said he'd get and the guy couldn't handle it. |
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BTW, Cromp, you joined up between 9/11 and the invasion, when recruitment was soaring. I don't think they needed to lie. Now? Most of the country wants out of the war, bodies are piling up; I would imagine recruiting may have changed between 2002 and now. |
Fun, fun.
Lies Some Recruiters Tell Quote:
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That was then, this is now. Now there's a war going on and they're having trouble finding people to fill quotas. They upped the age limit. They've lowered the minimum educational requirements. They're taking people with criminal histories they would have shown the door to in years past. My daughter is currently in the Coast Guard. She finished Cape May this past summer and is stationed in Florida. She considered several other services prior to joining the CG. I sat down with her and the recruiters from the Navy and the Air Force. They both lied on several issues. The Navy guy couldn't even keep his lies straight. Don't think he was used to dealing with people who do their homework. So that's the end of the 100% of that survey and that too is..say it with me... "fact." |
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... What were the lies about, anyway? Pay? Stations? Occupational specialty? |
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Tully, thanks for coming forward. I hope your daughter is safe in her service. |
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No one person signed a contract which resulted in different outcomes. That is the key, they are specifically TOLD TO READ THE ENTIRE CONTRACT. I went through recruitment twice, both times this was carried out. For those who don't read the contract I have as much sympathy as a person who pays 20% interest on their mortgage, it's their own fault. Quote:
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"You're female so it not even legal for us to send you to Iraq" "Look, you join, you get to boot camp and you find it's not for you all you have to do is ring a bell outside the dorm and you're on the next flight home. No questioned asked, we don't want you if you don't want to be there." "You're female, we need females. The day you complete Basic you'll make E-4. E-4 will get you guarantied off base housing even being single. That alone can nearly double your pay." I was lied to, my daughter was lied to. That's 50%... not 2 out of 3. |
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2. Boot camp does not equal USN BUDS training. 3. *snort-cackle-snort-turns-blue* Yeah, those would all be lies. Hopefully everybody could smell the bullshit. ... And I'm sorry, but the "we need females" line made me cackle. |
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and... you're saying someone else is stupid if they believe that if they join during two wars they won't go to war. That logic seems to contradict itself. |
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I think the bottom line is more and more pressure is being put on recruiters to deliver. The result of that is more and more often the recruiters are cutting corners to get slots filled. I know I read an article sometime back where at least one recruiter was using his own urine to get clean UA's on would be recruits. Quote:
I don't see where you can respond to a statement that a person was lied to when told "you won't go to Iraq" with: I have 3 friends in the Military who will never go to Iraq. 2 are Logistics and 1 is trainer. So not a lie. And state: Sorry, but you have a stupid friend if he thinks he signs up in a time of not one but two wars and won't fight. While possible, he should realize the reality. But it does sound like you agree the guy's being lied to, just that he's stupid for believing it. |
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Besides, my friends were in the military prior to 9/11. Those non-deployable positions are few and far between, getting into one in a time of war is difficult to say the least (though still possible). So you and your daughter were lied to, that is unfortunate. My question remains, did anyone present a contract which contradicted what would actually occur? |
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38 cases of coercion 74 cases of fall promises 38 cases of misconduct also: 420 cases of recruiter concealing medical/criminal record of potential recruits 110 cases of recruiter falsifying documents 47 cases of illegal testing 61 cases of "other" irregularities Not included: the more than 6,000 "unsubstantiated cases" of recruiting irregularities when it was recruiters word against the recruits. |
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Logic! Whee!
Logically, "I have three friends in the military who will never deploy," and "new recruits are likely to be deployed," are not contradictory statements. Even if we take the second statement as a certainty (ie, "new recruits will always be deployed,") there's still no contradiction inherent unless the three friends are new recruits. If we apply these two statements analytically to the recruiter's statement "you will not deploy," we still can't draw any firm conclusions although it does point to the probability that the recruiter was at the least stretching the truth a bit. Without knowing the context in which the recruiter made that statement, it's difficult or impossible to say with any certainty that he was lying. If, for example, the prospective recruit had asked "what if I get assigned to job X?" with job X being his job of choice and also being one of the jobs that is non-deployable, the recruiter could have made his statement without contradicting either of the two above. Also, oversimplifying leads to heated arguments over nothing. 'Some recruiters lie some of the time' != 'all recruiters lie all the time.' Inversely, 'some recruiters are honest with all new recruits' != 'all recruiters are honest with all recruits.' I am not American and I have a permanent disability that disqualifies me from service, so the larger debate really has no bearing on me whatsoever. If anyone wants to accuse me of bias, however, I will be glad to facilitate it by pointing out that if I didn't have a permanent disability I'd probably be in the forces today. EDIT - Quote:
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She walked out of basic an E-3. In regards to contradictions by contracts. In my case yes, but the contract where basically shoved in your face and you signed then back then. Everyone I talked to in basic said nearly the same thing. In regards to my daughter the Navy and Air Force were never pursued to the point of any contracts being viewed. When she signed with the Guard they went through everything line by line. Even had a DVD they showed us. Everything was covered honestly, as far as I know. |
Hilarious:
http://www.foxnews.com/printer_frien...327466,00.html Quote:
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There, fixed it for ya. Quote:
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There were 13,000+ recruiters, with an "irregular" practice rate of 4.7%. That roughly translates into 1 out of 20 to 25 recruiters doing something irregular, unethical or illegal, depending on multiple infractions by recruiters. And again, these are only the "substantiated" irregularities. An acceptable rate of unethical/criminal behavior? I wouldnt want my child to be dealing with that "one". |
I've just written Jimmy DeMint. I hope he reads my message carefully:
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