Please take a moment to pause, and think of our Military overseas this Christmas

[Deltona Couple]

Please take a moment to pause, and think of our Military overseas this Christmas.

Regardless of your political views;

Regardless of how you feel about our current President;

Regardless of why you feel we should, or should not be there;



PLEASE everyone, take a moment, and as you who have your families together this holiday season, let us think about those who are overseas and away from their familes.
I want to personally send out my family's most heartfelt wishes that you are safe, and return home the same way. To all those families who do NOT have your father, mother, brother, sister, daughter, son, aunt, uncle, or anyone in your family this holliday season: God bless you, and may he keep you and yours safe, and bring them home to you soon!
I have heard this song, and seen this video around the radio stations and internet. It really tugs on your heartstrings. please tell everyone that you know about this song and share it with your families.
Merry Christmas to all out Tilted friends!

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/iHZ7D-dyp64&border=0&rel=0"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/iHZ7D-dyp64&border=0&rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

[host]

If it is a topic posted here, and it is gonna stay here. It HAS to be political, and subject to politically framed (slanted?) discussion, or ?

[pan6467]

Host let it go.

My prayers and thoughts will be with those currently active and for all of those who have sacrificed to wear the uniform and work to protect our country.

To the families and friends of those who have lost their loved ones, I give thanks.

[Willravel]

In order for this to be what it should be, I agree that it probably shouldn't be in politics. I'll refrain from any diatribes about wars or soldiers out of respect.

Stay safe, soldiers.

[host]

Originally Posted by pan6467

Host let it go.

My prayers and thoughts will be with those currently active and for all of those who have sacrificed to wear the uniform and work to protect our country.

To the families and friends of those who have lost their loved ones, I give thanks.

Okay, pan... my sister's oldest son (my nephew and god child), and my wife's son (my stepson) are both members of the US military in combat zones, at this moment. I love them both. I fear for their safety.

It is the Christmas season. I do not see either of these two, brave, dedicated, exemplary members of my family, involved as they are in holding up, under the force of arms, or the rest of our armed forces, two governments and societies committed to sharia law, both illegally invaded and occupied, as "defending our freedom", or "keeping us more secure", compared to if they weren't in those countries, and we weren't spending the lives, limbs, and money, and grinding down our forces, to occupy those places.

It would feel as out of place, on this forum, to simply wish them "godspeed", as it would to wish the same, in this holiday season, to a SWAT team "hitting the wrong house". or a contingent of volunteer firefighters training their hoses on a controlled burn, intended to prevent wildfires.

I wish all of them a merry christmas and a "safe trip", we miss them, but believing as I do that their "service" is misplaced, and "in vain", weakening our forces and our country, instead of preserving and protecting it. this is the wrong place to be summoning a "LET's HEAR IT FOR OUR TROOPS", kind of greet.

[Ustwo]

Well it took almost 24 hours, so thats something there

[host]

Originally Posted by Ustwo

Well it took almost 24 hours, so thats something there

So, as you see it, posting such a request on this forum, was some sort of loyalty test? Is it impossible for you to consider that "the mission" has ALWAYS been used to define, to "glorify" "the troops" themselves.

Are there any instances in history where you could picture yourself not "wishing" a "happy holidays" to an occupying force? How about the Hessians in Trenton on Christmas, 1776 ?

I know you are savoring "host, taking the bait", but isn't it possible that you've been propagandized to a point where reason now escapes you?

[Ustwo]

Originally Posted by host

So, as you see it, posting such a request on this forum, was some sort of loyalty test? Is it impossible for you to consider that "the mission" has ALWAYS been used to define, to "glorify" "the troops" themselves.

Are there any instances in history where you could picture yourself not "wishing" a "happy holidays" to an occupying force? How about the Hessians in Trenton on Christmas, 1776 ?

I know you are savoring "host, taking the bait", but isn't it possible that you've been propagandized to a point where reason now escapes you?

Merry Christmas host.

[Plan9]

Yeah, I don't think this thread belongs here simply based on my experiences overseas.

Neither politics nor holidays exist in the desolate lands where your work ensemble consists of 35 pounds of body armor and an automatic rifle.

I am sorry that others have to go through what I did... those two times I saw December 25th come and go while carrying a rifle in a foreign land.

A small part of me still feels like laughing at those who will go through their entire life and never really understand the duality of the military.

A bizarre cross of doing time in prison and being a modern knight.

[Ustwo]

Originally Posted by Crompsin

A bizarre cross of doing time in prison and being a modern knight.

Crompsin you are my modern day Don Quixote.

[Plan9]

Ow, your sarcasm is stepping on my smooth spot.

[Ustwo]

Originally Posted by Crompsin

Ow, your sarcasm is stepping on my smooth spot.

Who was being sarcastic?

It is said that Don Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra worked on Don Quxiote while in prison. I thought it rather fitting, minus of course the madness part, but I don't know you well enough there

[Willravel]

Ustwo, do you have anything to do with the thread to say?

[Ustwo]

Originally Posted by willravel

Ustwo, do you have anything to do with the thread to say?

Good thing I'm not a grammar nazi eh? You are fired rom being my secretary though.

I only had to say that some members of the tilted left reacted as expected. I was going to leave the thread be, it really didn't need a response, but some can't let that go.

I know that it doesn't fit the politics section, because he didn't include dozens of vaguely related links or a question like 'should you pray for the troops?', but I forgave the poster being they do not venture often into these waters.

So Deltona Couple, I thank you for your reminder, and while I don't worry about Gods Blessing much, its easy to forget there are people risking life and limb every day, and while 'The Surge' seems to be working, much to the dismay of those at home who would rather us fail, but still good people will die before its over.

I expect this to generate a number of links since I said something was working in Iraq, but thats just how it goes here eh?

[Plan9]

Ya know... the Pied Piper's "lemming surge" did a good job at getting rid of lemmings.

Oh, wait... we're the lemmings.

[Willravel]

Originally Posted by Ustwo

Good thing I'm not a grammar nazi eh? You are fired rom being my secretary though.

Dentists need secretaries?

"Dear bicuspid,
Your services are no longer required.
Sincerely,
Dr. Ustwo"

[ratbastid]

You know--sectarian skirmishing aside--this is an interesting thread. It highlights the backfire of the right's politicization of the military of the last five years. Supporting the troops wasn't a military position until the Right decided to accuse anyone who dissented from their opinion of everything from treason to domestic terrorism. "Oppose the war? Why do you hate America and our troops? I support our troops and our president! I even have that bumper sticker! Since one is patriotic and brave, the other must be too!"

It's ever been thus; this was the same racket the Right ran--and VERY succesfully, too--on Jane Fonda. I suspect that my dropping her name will trigger some particular rightists to regurgitate the talking points that were leveled against her... Same bullshit, different decade.

I hope for our men and women fighting overseas the safest and happiest holiday season possible, given their circumstances. I hope the bastards in Washington who sent them there eat mistletoe and die.

[roachboy]

ok so...

(a) putting the thread in politics made it an object of debate rather than a call for silence/reflection----another way: the call for reflection itself became an object of debate.

this is in no way surprising.

that said, i wouldn't have put it anywhere else because, like it or not, whyat the op requests is a political action.
so the op is itself a political action.

(b) now things get more complicated.

what does the request mean that one pause for a minute and think about the people in the american military who find themselves in fucked up situations because of policy choices that one does not, has not, and cannot support?

obviously, the people who are sent into harm's way in the military do not themselves formulate the policies that get them sent into these situations--but the fact that they are where they are, in the contexts that they are in, means obviously that their situations are not separable from policy choices.

so

(c) can one think of the individuals who happen to have signed up for the military in the situations they occupy--which are the result of policy choices--to the exclusion of those policy choices?

in a way yes.
in a way no.

what the op asks those of us who opposed, oppose and will oppose the bush administrations military adventures to do is to make a separation between the administration's actions and their results----to imagine that these folk are simply teleported from their homes to these theaters of conflict. like these theaters are self-contained, the way tables are. or to imagine war as like the shit that happens to people over which we the people have no control. like a gas main blowing up, but bigger.

so you might as well pretend that the wars in iraq and afghanistan are like the weather.

so let's do as the op suggests, and think of the people in the military who find themselves in danger over the holidaze as regular folk who were teleported into these situations arbitrarily.

but that's absurd: they are not where they are arbitrarily.


ok so let's think of these folk as human beings in dangerous situations.

well, since that erases any trace of differences between dangerous situations, which ones are elective (as a function of political choices) and which ones simply happen, then fine....but it trivializes what it asks for, requiring us to consciously erase features of the wars in aghanistan and iraq in order to access the "simple" position of just thinking about folk who are in harm's way.

everything about such a request is totally political.
not only that, but it's a cheap, nasty kind of political.
let's not screw about pretending that it isn't the case.
it is, like it or not.

=========================================

but this isn't all one can say.
i can say this:

my sympathies and to some extent anxieties go out to everyone involved with these conflicts.
on all sides, civilian and military, "us" and "them"--->that they all are able to return to their elective lives safe.
that they all can become who and what they want to become.
that the idiotic conflicts that explain the dangerous interactions which prompt such concern will end, sooner rather than later, and that all human beings can find themselves in a position to do what makes them happiest, in a context that allows for it...

these sentiments are not so difficult: who wouldn't wish them for themselves and---- because they wish it for themselves--wish it for other people as well?

==========================
that this desire amounts to a call for revolution can wait perhaps until after the holidaze. after all, commodities await: commodities like "stopping a moment to remember."--you know, like what you did before, when you bought one of those 7-11 yellow ribbons to tack on to the back of your suv...

[kurty[B]]

While thinking about our military forces over in Iraq, also think about writing a letter to your governer requesting that "I'll Be Home For Christmas" never be played in the chow halls, MWRs and so on on the bases in Iraq. There's nothing more depressing than being halfway across the world from your family and hearing that damn song everytime you go to eat a meal knowing full well that you are not going to be home for Christmas.

[ratbastid]

Originally Posted by roachboy

so you might as well pretend that the wars in iraq and afghanistan are like the weather.

Which is of course precisely the line the pro-war faction wants us believing. War is VERY GOOD for many interests. The fact that wars have to be deliberately entered into is politically inexpedient, however. Hence the sledgehammer-like repetition of the "9-11/we were attacked/fight them there so we don't fight them here" mantra. They want war to be something that just happens, that we have no agency in, that can go on unbidden for decades and decades, while big business interests and their pet politicians make billions.

You're right, roachboy: it's impossible to disentagle the serviceman from the forces that put him in harm's way. The best we can do is to hope, pray, and authentically work for peace on earth and good will toward men.

[pan6467]

See, I don't understand how wishes to "think of our military during Christmas" should be made political. Perhaps the OP made a mistake thinking this was the place to do it...... the mods then should have moved it.

To turn something that simple into political grandstanding is self serving, demoralizing to the troops (because you show them to be nothing more than pawns for your own political agendas), self serving bullshit.

Whether you agree with the war, the president or not..... these men and women are putting their lives and safety in harm's way believing they are doing so for the best of our country. A thread saying "thank you, you are not forgotten on Christmas" should be simple and filled with best wishes..... not political self serving bullshit.

We like to philosophize and point out what is wrong with the country in "our" individual eyes in this forum, but I propose and firmly believe this is a majority of what is wrong. One side so full of hatred, anger and self serving grandstanding that they cannot even wish the military men and women doing their jobs a safe and Merry Christmas. They are too busy spewing their own negativity. One has to ask if they truly even care about those men and women or if they just see them as some political pawns to gain movement so that "their" political party can win.

The other side is no better, they laugh and point out what I just did but do so in a much more angry, hate filled, self righteous context (it is possible listen to Limbaugh, read USTwo).... that they themselves spend more time fighting their political views than truly wishing the best for the men and women serving.

Negativity begets negativity.

Then you have those who will say "how dare you tell me I can't spew my views in this thread." Well, when we have more threads than I can think of dealing with the war and this one just said "let us think of our service personnel for the holidays and put politics aside", I don't see why those wishes cannot be honored. Unless, you fall into the above categories.

Anyway..........(enough of my self serving, grandstanding, bullshit)............. onto that of the most importance...................

GOD BLESS YOU MEN AND WOMEN OF OUR MILITARY........ THANK YOU FOR DOING THE BEST JOB POSSIBLE AND PROTECTING OUR FREEDOMS...... THANK YOU FOR BELIEVING IN OUR COUNTRY AND SACRIFICING EVERYTHING..... THANK YOU FOR SERVING....... MAY YOU BE SAFE, HAVE SMOOTH SEAS AND A STRONG WIND TO YOUR BACK....... MERRY CHRISTMAS AND GOD SPEED.

[roachboy]

To turn something that simple into political grandstanding is self serving, demoralizing to the troops (because you show them to be nothing more than pawns for your own political agendas), self serving bullshit.

so the only grounds for rejecting the op are forms of self-aggrandizement?
but you, on the other hand, you are selfless and so posting a post like the above is a selfless act.
so you are dame edna, who gives and gives and gives.

and dissent "demoralizes the troops" because

because you show them to be nothing more than pawns for your own political agendas

so according to this particular logical nugget, there are no "political agendas" that explain the debacle in iraq--politics only enters into it when those of us who opposed and who oppose the wars in aghanistan and iraq mention that we oppose these wars, when we think of the connections between policies and outcomes--WE are the problem that interrupts the otherwise smooth flow of psychic friend messages that connect the troops in iraq, say, to what we are thinking collectively in the states.

so that means that problems in iraq follow from the existence of dissent, not from misguided, stupid policy choices by this administration.

nice pan. i recently heard a speech by goebbels from january 1943 during which he asked germany (by radio) to indulge a period of sustained psychic gymnastics in support of the german effort around stalingrad. "bring the storm" he said. if we all just think really hard, the troops will know and then stalingrad will turn out differently.

thing is that goebbels was insane.

but he genuinely thought that collective visualization exercises were part of a coherent "war effort"---that also meant that anyone who did not participate in these collective visualization exercises was part of a fifth column, sucking a the precious bodily fluids of an otherwise unified body politic: they were therefore parasites.

problems everywhere.
but hey--->

Negativity begets negativity.

i like the huge red font, though.
very xmas.

[pan6467]

If that's all you got out of that RB and you just want to pick and choose what part of my post you want to rip into.... by all means, have your say, show everyone exactly how you truly feel about the men and women in the military.

And to compare me to a Nazi because I stated what I stated.... (of course it was wrong for me to say you shouldn't be so political in this one thread....) But it's ok for you to compare me to a Nazi.....

Nice... sweet.... freedom of speech only goes one way then?

Nevermind ..... I'm not going to ruin the thread..... WE HAVE ENOUGH ANTI-WAR THREADS.......LET THIS BE ONE TO JUST SHOW THE MILITARY MEN AND WOMEN WE CARE.

Why is that so hard???????

MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL THE MEN AND WOMEN SERVING COME HOME SAFE AND KNOW EVEN THOUGH WE MAY FIGHT..... WE ALL WISH YOU ONLY THE BEST AND SAFEST MISSION AND RETURN HOME

[roachboy]

there was no comparison, pan, between you and goebbels.
had i meant to draw the parallel, i would have said it directly.
but my apologies if i left that vague.
there was a parallel argument, that's all.
and it's a kinda crazy argument.

here's the point:

YOU CANT SIMPLY PRETEND THAT POLITICS ARE NOT PRESENT.


but it's nice that you took such time to consider viewpoints that aren't yours too.

Negativity begets negativity

ho ho ho.

[jewels]

Make love not war.

PEACE to all.

[n0nsensical]

On second thought, I think what I had to say is already covered.

[Plan9]

Originally Posted by jewels443

Make love not war.

PEACE to all.

Fill vaginas, not sandbags.

[Deltona Couple]

Jesus Christ!

I guess maybe I should have not even posted this thread at all! I merely asked for everyone to put ASIDE their political difference for ONE FREAKIN MOMENT and wish the best wishes they could for our troops who will NOT be home for the holidays. Maybe I SHOULD have picked a different forum than the political one because all I read are people making assumptions on WHY I posted it, and make me feel like I am trying to come up with some political twist to it. My intentions were totally honourable in EXACTLY what I had said. Nothing more, nothing less. I guess at this point all I can ask is that the mods either move this post to a more friendly location, or delete the whole @$$%!% thread! I can't believe that the people here are so stuck that they can't put asside their differences for a single damn moment.

With that, I am done here.

[Plan9]

Originally Posted by Deltona Couple

My intentions were totally honourable in EXACTLY what I had said.

... that was your first mistake here.

There is no honor to be found in modern politics or our police actions overseas.

[ratbastid]

American sentiment is WAY beyond any ability to divorce politics from the notion of "supporting our troops". That meme has been burned into our psyches, either as something to bow in front of or as something to react against.

[reconmike]

To my friends, comrades, and men that I have trained still in the shit, I wish you all the best of luck and God speed for your safe return.

This Christmas morning I will be thinking of you all.

May one day the job you all did over there make the world a bit safer.

With the possibility that perhaps one day there will be peace on earth this day.

Pray for peace, train for war.

[Ustwo]

Originally Posted by Deltona Couple

Jesus Christ!

I guess maybe I should have not even posted this thread at all! I merely asked for everyone to put ASIDE their political difference for ONE FREAKIN MOMENT and wish the best wishes they could for our troops who will NOT be home for the holidays. Maybe I SHOULD have picked a different forum than the political one because all I read are people making assumptions on WHY I posted it, and make me feel like I am trying to come up with some political twist to it. My intentions were totally honourable in EXACTLY what I had said. Nothing more, nothing less. I guess at this point all I can ask is that the mods either move this post to a more friendly location, or delete the whole @$$%!% thread! I can't believe that the people here are so stuck that they can't put asside their differences for a single damn moment.

With that, I am done here.

We are fun group here eh?

The politics section is mostly radical left wingers and a few stubborn people on the right who perhaps lack the wisdom to not poke into their cages.

You accidentally poked the cages, I knew it wouldn't end well, but I did have some hope it would just pass.

[pan6467]

Besides pissing people off, losing a wonderful contributor and showing contempt not for politics but for the military as a whole..... I really don't see what was accomplished by the radical anti war crowd here.

I see that a Mod himself added fuel to the fire and could have moved this thread so that the true meaning (wishing the men and women in the military far from their homes a Happy Holiday season) could be achieved without the flamers and idiocy that was shown here.

Hey Zeus Freaking Crisp.... we have enough anti war threads, why couldn't we just have one ESPECIALLY this time of year to appreciate and send our thanks and love to those who have chosen to protect our rights.

Some of you have truly made me ashamed to be a Democrat by showing your pathetic, egotistical pettiness and self righteous, holier and smarter than thou bravado. How truly sad you cannot find enough peace within yourselves to just wish our men and women in uniform a safe and merry Christmas. You talk of peace, love and how criminal the war is yet you are too blind to see your own hatred, prejudice and contempt.

I also love the way that anyone who points this out is compared to Nazis, told that we are infringing upon freedoms, talked down to, told to accept that "this is politics" ..... love that excuse.... "I can't wish the military men and women a Merry Christmas in this thread because it's in the Politics category and thus I must make my politics known (even tho I've done so in every anti war thread.... If I wish the men and women in uniform a Merry Christmas and not say something contrite and amusing (to show my intelligence) my Radical friends here may think I'm not as anti war as them and they may not give me kudos and warm fuzzies and instead say I'm getting soft on the war."

Fuck that bullshit.... but I better never see one of you talk about how you "hate the war but support the troops" I'm sure if I don't pop up this thread and show your quotes of how you truly feel about and support the troops, USTwo or some NeoCon or even moderate Righty will.

One can be anti war, not believe in the reasons and dislike Bush but still have enough class, honor and respect to wish those men and women a safe and Merry Christmas.

What a bunch of selfish, ignorant, self serving assholes. I'd rather converse with a 1,000 USTwos (no offense) and Limbaughs than be associated with your type. At least with the NeoCons and Far Right I know what to expect. With you Radical Leftists you'll backstab anyone if you think it'll get you brownie points or show how "great" you are (only in your own mind though).

[host]

Originally Posted by pan6467

....why couldn't we just have one ESPECIALLY this time of year to appreciate and send our thanks and love to those who have chosen to protect our rights.....

Pan, you posted the line above, as part of your argument. You can change my mind, I'll post an apology here and I'll thank our troops for their service and post a sincere holiday greeting to all of our troops in Iraq and Afghanistan, if you can back up your rhetoric.

How are "our rights" better protected by continued US occupation of Iraqi and Afghani territory?

Here is the impact of deploying US troops on the ground in Afghanistan since late 2001, and in Iraq since early 2003:

<a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/20/us/20army.html?ex=1332043200&en=4fe5ca80b6708d8d&ei=5088">Army officials concede that the unit is not capable of getting at least an initial force of several hundred to a war zone within 18 hours, a standard once considered inviolate.</a>

The preceding sentence is "clickable", read the article. Are our troops in a better position to "protect our rights" and "keep us safe", now, or four years and ten months ago? Isn't "keeping us safe", the justification for maintaining a standing, professional military?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...090702050.html
Are we safer today?
<Six Years After 9/11 and Three Years After the 9/11 Report, Is the U.S. Ready to Get Serious About Terrorism?

By Thomas H. Kean and Lee H. Hamilton
Sunday 9, 2007; Page B01....

...Four years ago, then-Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld famously asked his advisers: "Are we capturing, killing or deterring and dissuading more terrorists every day than the madrassas and the radical clerics are recruiting, training and deploying against us?"

The answer is no.

U.S. foreign policy has not stemmed the rising tide of extremism in the Muslim world. In July 2004, the 9/11 commission recommended putting foreign policy at the center of our counterterrorism efforts. Instead, we have lost ground.

Our report warned that it was imperative to eliminate terrorist sanctuaries. But inside Pakistan, al-Qaeda "has protected or regenerated key elements of its homeland attack capability," according to the National Intelligence Estimate. The chief threat to Afghanistan's young democracy comes from across the Pakistani border, from the resurgent Taliban. Pakistan should take the lead in closing Taliban camps and rooting out al-Qaeda. But the United States must act if Pakistan will not.

We are also failing in the struggle of ideas. We have not been persuasive in enlisting the energy and sympathy of the world's 1.3 billion Muslims against the extremist threat. That is not because of who we are: Polling data consistently show strong support in the Muslim world for American values, including our political system and respect for human rights, liberty and equality. Rather, U.S. policy choices have undermined support.

No word is more poisonous to the reputation of the United States than Guantanamo. Fundamental justice requires a fair legal process before the U.S. government detains people for significant periods of time, and the president and Congress have not provided one. Guantanamo Bay should be closed now. The 9/11 commission recommended developing a "coalition approach" for the detention and treatment of terrorists -- a policy that would be legally sustainable, internationally viable and far better for U.S. credibility....

....And finally, no conflict drains more time, attention, blood, treasure and support from our worldwide counterterrorism efforts than the war in Iraq. It has become a powerful recruiting and training tool for al-Qaeda.....

<h3>...We also lack a legal framework for fighting terrorism without sacrificing civil liberties.</h3> The Privacy and Civil Liberties Oversight Board created in response to our recommendations has been missing in action. The board has raised no objections to wiretaps without warrants and to troubling detention and interrogation practices. It even let the White House edit its annual report. Now strengthened by a new law, the board must become a firm public voice in support of civil liberties....

http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/004972.php
Unaccountable Musharraf Aid Spent Unaccountably
By Spencer Ackerman - December 24, 2007, 10:59AM

Stop the presses! When the U.S. gave Pervez Musharraf a dumptruck full of cash after 9/11 -- $10.58 billion and counting, <a href="http://tpmmuckraker.com/archives/004658.php">mostly in untraceable cash transfers</a> -- it didn't exactly care how he spent it, as long as he was sufficiently bought off as a U.S. ally for the war on terror. Lo and behold: Musharraf spent his cash how he pleased, and <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/24/world/asia/24military.html?pagewanted=1&_r=2&hp">not on U.S. "priorities" for Pakistan!</a>

A case in point: now that al-Qaeda's senior leadership has reconstituted itself in Pakistan's Northwest Frontier Province, U.S. officials fret that Musharraf didn't use his free money to build up a promised counterterrorist force for the FATA.

In interviews in Islamabad and Washington, Bush administration and military officials said they believed that much of the American money was not making its way to frontline Pakistani units. Money has been diverted to help finance weapons systems designed to counter India, not Al Qaeda or the Taliban, the officials said, adding that the United States has paid tens of millions of dollars in inflated Pakistani reimbursement claims for fuel, ammunition and other costs.

“I personally believe there is exaggeration and inflation,” said a senior American military official who has reviewed the program, referring to Pakistani requests for reimbursement. “Then, I point back to the United States and say we didn’t have to give them money this way.”....

Have "our rights", increased, stayed the same, or eroded since March, 2003? So, should I send them a greeting to show my sppreciation to them for "trying", when I know that they are deployed in places where the result is a lessening of our potential protection options, not an enhancing?

Should I send the greeting of appreciation for the job that they are doing, this year, next year...when would there have to be results of their service demonstrated before holding the show of support and appreciation? Should I make believe that they are in the right places at the right time, keeping us safe, and "protecting our rights", when I see no indication of their activity doing anyhting greater than increasing hostility towards them and our country, as "our rights" are withdrawn by the ministrations of their CIC, and the cost of their operations pushes our debt into a heavy burden left for our grandchildren?

Maybe if there were no holiday greetings emanating from the homeland, they would attempt to find out why.....or demand that their commanders, up to and including their CIC, tell them, and us, the truth about the progress of "the mission" and it's actual purpose.

[pan6467]

Host very simply put..... when you wear the uniform your job becomes to protect the country.

Obviously everything else I wrote went way over your head.

Your hatred for the war passes any humanity, understanding and caring you may have towards one who wears the uniform.

No Host, I don't look for your apology.... in fact, I believe in your mind you will believe it is ok what has transpired in this thread and not understand why I am so upset or why someone in the military would choose not to associate with you. Unfortunately Host, a couple others in this thread have shown their being right, their hatred and animosity against Bushco and the war surpass any humanity and class in them.

Amazing how you can make justifications for your hatreds and come up with reasons so overblown that you simply cannot wish men and women wearing the uniform a Merry Christmas.... unless it's with self serving diatribes, then as RB showed it was only in a sarcastic, very put downish way. I'm sure the men and women in uniform thank you for that.

[Seaver]

Great post Pan. I've stayed quiet, even though it was a "thank the Troops" post. That took a lot for me, because I was one of the troops, my father served 23 years, 4 out of 5 uncles served with two still in. I was born and raised in the military, and was one until an injury got me the boot. So you can start to realize how much I wanted a genuine Merry X-Mas thread to the troops at home and abroad.

I knew exactly what this thread would turn into, and I'm glad it's someone other than on the right who points out what has been happening over the years in the Politics forum.

At least we got rid of that guy who actively posted he hated anyone in the military, linked them to Nazis (no, not Murtha), and believed they deserved to die as much as terrorists. Though I have the warning tag because of it.

[something red]

Pan6467,

The emotional space from which you've posted makes it difficult to respond in any meaningful way. How one can read the above posts by roachboy - which I feel are very well worded and lay out his position quite clearly - and consider it to be "adding fuel to the fire" is a bit baffling.

For a thread like this to work, it must exist in a void, without any context whatsoever. For there to be no context, we must not think about the war itself or how it came to be or how it continues to go on and on. For there to be no context, we must force ourselves to not think at all.

If I were to simply post a "Merry Christmas to the troops!" that would be sufficient for you, yes? Although I could just as easily think to myself: "Merry Christmas to the troops!" with the same overall result, yes? (You not being able to read it on this messageboard wouldn't change a thing, other than your temper, perhaps) But along with that thought would come a bit of context - maybe a bit like some of the things you see posted in this thread - because my brain doesn't operate in a void, doesn't turn itself off when it is convenient.

So it's nothing, really. All this fuss you are making. What you are arguing for is a lack of depth.

And you throw around the word "democrat" as if it means something in relation to the notion of this thread. If you are ashamed to be a democrat because of something you read in a discussion forum, then perhaps this is not the venue for you? But to put people in a little democrat box is just a lazy thing for you to do. I don't even come close to understanding your indignation.

And as far as the op is concerned, if you want discussion to take place in a void, then why post on a messageboard at all? This thread is a natural progression of messageboard mechanics.

As far as the conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan go, I feel a sadness beyond measure for everyone involved. Particularly the Iraqis, who've had it worse than everyone else involved in the conflict combined. It is a very sad state of affairs.

Merry Christmas to all.

[ubertuber]

I'm going to go ahead and lock this. It's way off from the OP's intent and seems to be staggering around in a sort of drunken belligerence. If anyone feels strongly about this, PM me with your reasoning and I'll consider reopening.