Why do we bother?

[tecoyah]

OIL!!!!

There really is no other logical reason for the United States to be involved in Middle Eastern affairs. The region is about as far from our soil as you can get while still on this planet, is culturally very different than what is termed "western thinking", and has historically been amongst the most violent and self destructive places on earth.
Unless we as a country agree that colonialism is a good idea (blatant or subversive), exporting our base culture through forceful diplomacy is not an acceptable reason. The "War on Terror" cannot be used either, as we have meddled in the region long before terrorism was even a worry. So....Why indeed are we even there?

So, I ask a very simple question:

Do we, as a population/country simply place such a low value on Human Life that we can exchange our citizens (and those of middle eastern countries) for a stable energy supply?

[ratbastid]

Look: mostly our experience with drug deals gone bad is from TV and movies, but it absolutely happens in real life too. When someone is addicted to something, or has something huge to gain from obtaining something, the fact that human lives stand between them and possessing that thing has very little meaning.

America is addicted to oil. It's our crack. It's our black rock heroin. And big oil companies, in cahoots with the Executive and to some degree Legislative branches of our government, are our pushers. And yes, whatever human life stands between us and an ever expanding access to our drug of choice is very, very expendable.

The Iraq War is a drug deal gone bad.

[Charlatan]

So ratbastid... are you suggesting that the US needs an intervention?

"My name is USA and I'm an oilaholic."

"Hi USA!"


The truth is it isn't just the US that is addicted. The entire planet is addicted to oil. The economy is largely based on oil (whether directly or through the benefits that oil brings).

[shakran]

I think you're giving Bush too much credit. I don't think he has the foresight to invade a country in a quest for oil. And I'm backed up in that opinion by the fact that we still haven't gotten any oil from Iraq, and our gas prices are sky high.

I think the Iraq war was a simple combo of Bush wanting to play Army, and wanting to go get the guy that tried to kill his daddy.

[noodlebee]

This is very strange.

If watching this forum and other online communities with strong USA majority is a good reliable way to see how USA majority in real life thinks, then it is safe to say that a lot of people just want peace. Of course, what "peace" means can be complicated because different people have different ways of how to GO TO peace.

Also, how many think tank people are behind the decisions that George W. Bush confirm and put into action? How much influence?

[joshbaumgartner]

And I'm backed up in that opinion by the fact that we still haven't gotten any oil from Iraq, and our gas prices are sky high.

When one says 'for oil' it doesn't equal 'for the common man to have cheap gas prices'.

Does Big Oil want access to Iraqi-or Persian-oil? Sure they do. But they don't need to get that oil to gain a lot of benefit from the war fought over the oil lands. By taking Iraqi oil off the market, or keeping it off the market, until they can control it, they constrict the market, thus allowing them to squeeze greater profits from their current supplies. Then, when the Iraqi oil does start to flow, if they control it, they can then profit off of that oil. Basically it is a win-win situation for the oil companies. They win if Iraqi oil doesn't flow, and they win if it flows under their control. The only thing that isn't good for them is when a country like Iran is selling oil that isn't under Big Oil's control.

So when we talk about fighting a war for oil, it isn't about yokels like myself being able to fill up without wincing in pain at the price. It is about maximizing profits for the big oil companies.

[Cynthetiq]

i'm always intrigued by the energy oil debates.

aren't alot of the other products we use oil derivatives? like all the plastics we use? all the machining and manufacturing?

[joshbaumgartner]

Yep, it's a lot more than a car mover. I've been meaning to see if I can dig up percentages of how much is used in each area: gasoline, electricity production, industry, etc.

[aceventura3]

If everyone who is indignant over excessive use of oil, wars being fought partly because of oil, and the damage that the use of oil is causing the environment, stopped using oil and oil based products they could change the world. But, rather than changing the world, I guess they ask the question - why bother?

[host]

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

i'm always intrigued by the energy oil debates.

aren't alot of the other products we use oil derivatives? like all the plastics we use? all the machining and manufacturing?

http://cta.ornl.gov/data/tedb25/Spre.../Table1_13.xls
html display=
http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache...lnk&cd=1&gl=us

Table 1.13
Consumption of Petroleum by End-Use Sector, 1973–2005
(million barrels per day)
Year 2005

Transportation Percentage Residential Commercial Industrial Utilities total bbls
13.82 66.8%______________0.88____________0.38 ____5.07__________0.54_______20.70

...so, we in the US consume 20.70 million bbls of petroleum per day, and 13.82 million of those bbls are used for transportaion, 880 thousand for residential use, 380,000 for commercial consumption, 5.07 million for industrial use, and 540 thousand by electric utiltities.....

IMO, there is a huge potential for reduction, from current tranportation consumption, especially now that the US auto manufacturing sector is reducing in it's size and impact on the economu to near irrelevancy. It will most likely happen via unaffordability and not by government leadership....the "have nots" will simply be priced out of discretionary motor fuels consumption....

[joshbaumgartner]

Originally Posted by aceventura3

If everyone who is indignant over excessive use of oil, wars being fought partly because of oil, and the damage that the use of oil is causing the environment, stopped using oil and oil based products they could change the world. But, rather than changing the world, I guess they ask the question - why bother?

Well, unlike some people, I'm only human. I do what I can, but not all I can. I live within the world that is, even if I seek to change it. I eat at McDonald's sometimes, but that doesn't mean I give up on trying to be healthy. Wanting to raise speed limits doesn't mean I drive around at 90. I drive a car, but not a land tank. I don't run the A/C down to 67 while I'm on vacation, but sometimes I forget to turn off the downstairs light before I go to bed. I'm human. Could I do more to reach my ideals? Absolutely. Should I do more? Most probably. I muddle along, and will continue to do so, sometimes succeeding, and sometimes failing to do the right thing.

But I don't just sit and ask why bother.

[aceventura3]

Originally Posted by joshbaumgartner

Well, unlike some people, I'm only human. I do what I can, but not all I can.

I guess the million dollar question is why not do all that you can?

Isn't saying "...I'm only human." the same as saying - why bother, I'm only human?

Please don't take this as a personal attack or anything like that, but I do find it interesting how we as a nation can be so indignant, yet not make the changes needed to fix the problem.

[joshbaumgartner]

Originally Posted by aceventura3

I guess the million dollar question is why not do all that you can?

Isn't saying "...I'm only human." the same as saying - why bother, I'm only human?

Please don't take this as a personal attack or anything like that, but I do find it interesting how we as a nation can be so indignant, yet not make the changes needed to fix the problem.

Not my nature to take it as a personal attack. Afterall it is a valid question. There is only one person who did all he could in my mind and that is Jesus himself. There are certainly days that I have sloughed, basically not finding the reason to bother. There are other days where I have been so busily working away I was shocked the day had passed. The point is that we will always fail sometimes to put in 100%. If we didn't we'd be robots in perfect working condition.

But I think there is a big difference between striving for change, and sometimes failing to put as much into it as you could or should, and on the other hand giving up on making a difference and relegating yourself to merely complaining.

Does the fact I drive a car negate any validity of what I might have to say on oil issues? Does it mean I'm not bothering to make a difference? I don't know, maybe it does. But I could drive a land tank instead. I actively support leaders that are willing and trying to make postive changes (that's how democracies work afterall). So I'm not doing nothing.

I think we all have to ask ourselves that question on a regular basis: Are we doing enough to move toward our ideals? Or have we really ratcheted down our ideals to meet what we are willing to do? Or worse yet, have we given up on achieving our ideals, but instead put the responsibility on others to achieve them? Personally, I feel if I am doing enough then it is time to raise the bar and demand more of myself. I know I'm not perfect--far from it--but I don't let that dissuade me from continually working to keep my ship on the right course.

[Cynthetiq]

Originally Posted by joshbaumgartner

I think we all have to ask ourselves that question on a regular basis: Are we doing enough to move toward our ideals? Or have we really ratcheted down our ideals to meet what we are willing to do? Or worse yet, have we given up on achieving our ideals, but instead put the responsibility on others to achieve them?

those are the keys questions.

I've traded representative governement for achieving some of my goals. I've also traded working for money instead of farming and hunting and building my own things. I'm not willing to raise and slaughter a cow just so that I can have a steak or hamburger.

[noodlebee]

Well, it depends on how much outside factors affect these things you can afford to give up. For example, it would be more difficult to give up driving a large van if you are the main driver for your family (especially if you also take care of your elder relatives at home).

Plus, because we are so used to such a spendthrift lifestyle in North America, there may be some things that don't even enter our mind. It's not really ignorance, but forgetfulness or the "Oh, I honestly didn't know we have a better option."

I recently promised myself that I will never buy brand new clothes again. This has some exceptions of course because of hygeine and size (I am very small but wearing children's clothes to work is bad). It was something that I did not think of until my roommate told me he found some very nice clothes at Goodwill (Canadian secondhand store that also acts as charity), even though I already buy majority of my books and furniture secondhand and use bicycle, bus or walking as my main transportation.

[roachboy]

1. i am not persuaded that oil is the explanation for the iraq debacle. i think that it was an element at play, but it doesnt explain anything.

2. on american dependency on oil and its relations to foreign and military policies, read michael klare's book "resource wars." it's still the best resource on this i know of.

3. on doing individual actions to reduce pteroleum dependency---well, they are something, yes? i sometimes wonder about this...for example because i ride a bike all over the place, i use a messenger bag to carry groceries in, but i dont have the impression that impacts on the production of plastic bags. but i do it anyway--but it isnt really a matter of principle. it's just a pragmatic thing that follows from other choices. i guess the bigger choice was getting rid of my car, my ultimate homeboy car, my 98. but even that was mostly just a pragmatic choice--i live in a city, what do i need a car for? if i want one, i'll rent one. if i dont, i wont. but again, i dont see any particular effects of this on the overall number of cars being driven (judging from the numbers that i encounter riding around chicago, doing all the lunatic things that people make their cars do)...maybe it's simplest to have larger-scale matters like Reduction of Petroleum Dependency as subtexts or second-order motivations for what you do, but to do them and stick to them for other, smaller reasons.

[pan6467]

Originally Posted by aceventura3

If everyone who is indignant over excessive use of oil, wars being fought partly because of oil, and the damage that the use of oil is causing the environment, stopped using oil and oil based products they could change the world. But, rather than changing the world, I guess they ask the question - why bother?

Good point, ya old heartless conservative you.

(Meant with love and all respect from a liberal but feels the same way)

You see very few of the people moaning about oil,

out there driving 100% electric cars (Ed Begley JR. is a great man).... "ohhh but they are so expensive"...... if more people bought them and the demand went up, there maybe manufacturers willing to mass produce them and lower the cost.

not flying in planes...... "but it's the fastest cheapest way to get across the country" or "they have bad reps and are for people of a lower class than I"...... maybe but maybe if more people decided to use Amtrak and GreyHound those modes of transportation would have more money to work on developing faster modes of travel. If people of "your" staure starts using them, their reps and stautre will increase also.

not petitioning their cities and states to get solar/wind/water powered generators....... "we can petition all we want but noone will pay attention, people in government are corrupt and owned by special interests and the oil companies"....... Really????? then form groups that not only petition but demand the politicians hear you or YOU'LL VOTE THEM OUT OF OFFICE.

not riding bikes to work.... "I live too far".... then take a bus or some form of public transport.

not demanding that the shops they shop at, the companies they buy product from use less oil and alternative fuels..... "They won't listen and I don't know what companies use alternative fuels"....... They'll listen if enough people start boycotting and it is as easy as emailing companies and asking them what kind of power sources they use to make their product and if they use petroleum at all.

The point is, stop fucking complaining and do something, change only happens when enough people stand up and work together towards change.

Sitting, crying, bitching and moaning does NOTHING, but show you are too lazy and don't have the desire to truly change things.

Our founding fathers, Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, Alexander Hamilton, etc didn't sit there saying, "we need change, why can't things change.... oh whoa is us"... They stood up, were willing to sacrifice everything they had to change and did so.

Our union bosses stood up to the leaders of industry and took broken skulls and beatings to fight for workers rights.

Ghandi went on a hunger strike and suffered many beatings but did so in the name of change.

And YOU all want to sit there and cry the government and the "powers that be" won't change?????

You have to fight for change baby, people get complacent and in comfort levels with the status quo and may cry about change but won't do anything because they may have to make sacrifices......

It takes true men and women, true heroes to stand up, organize and risk all for what they believe. And today there are not enough willing to.

[joshbaumgartner]

Originally Posted by roachboy

3. on doing individual actions to reduce pteroleum dependency---well, they are something, yes? i sometimes wonder about this...for example because i ride a bike all over the place, i use a messenger bag to carry groceries in, but i dont have the impression that impacts on the production of plastic bags. but i do it anyway--but it isnt really a matter of principle. it's just a pragmatic thing that follows from other choices. i guess the bigger choice was getting rid of my car, my ultimate homeboy car, my 98. but even that was mostly just a pragmatic choice--i live in a city, what do i need a car for? if i want one, i'll rent one. if i dont, i wont. but again, i dont see any particular effects of this on the overall number of cars being driven (judging from the numbers that i encounter riding around chicago, doing all the lunatic things that people make their cars do)...maybe it's simplest to have larger-scale matters like Reduction of Petroleum Dependency as subtexts or second-order motivations for what you do, but to do them and stick to them for other, smaller reasons.

You know it brings up a point and that is what difference does it make. I mean if enough people that wanted to reduce oil consumption stopped driving, etc. enough to see a measurable impact on demand for oil, wouldn't that reduced demand lower prices, not to mention reduce congestion on the roads? But then wouldn't that just improve driving conditions, thus encouraging the rest of the people to drive more?

This came up when talking about congestion pricing. Taking cars off the street actually encouraged more car usage. The same problems face traffic engineers everywhere. If they build a new lane, it won't just fill up with overflow from other lanes, but the fact that the road can then handle more traffic will attract that traffic, often negating any gain made from the new lane or road in a matter of months.

So yes, that you do what you do for more practical, 'smaller reasons' as you put it, is a good thing I think, because that sticks. I don't go overboard and drive more vehicle than I need, but I don't make my family go without to prove commitment to a principle either.

[Baraka_Guru]

Our cities need to build up, not out.

[noodlebee]

If you build up instead of out, it would be concrete jungle. The temperature inside concrete jungle is quite high because the buildings can make a lot of wind shadow.

[pan6467]

Originally Posted by roachboy

3. on doing individual actions to reduce pteroleum dependency---well, they are something, yes? i sometimes wonder about this...for example because i ride a bike all over the place, i use a messenger bag to carry groceries in, but i dont have the impression that impacts on the production of plastic bags. but i do it anyway--but it isnt really a matter of principle. it's just a pragmatic thing that follows from other choices. i guess the bigger choice was getting rid of my car, my ultimate homeboy car, my 98. but even that was mostly just a pragmatic choice--i live in a city, what do i need a car for? if i want one, i'll rent one. if i dont, i wont. but again, i dont see any particular effects of this on the overall number of cars being driven (judging from the numbers that i encounter riding around chicago, doing all the lunatic things that people make their cars do)...maybe it's simplest to have larger-scale matters like Reduction of Petroleum Dependency as subtexts or second-order motivations for what you do, but to do them and stick to them for other, smaller reasons.

This is the good part of my example, RB is taking steps to change what he can.

I applaud that and respect that.

It is up to us to change voluntarily and to persuade others to, not for government to force change. Time and time again, it has been proven that if we rely on government to make the needed changes, we lose our rights in the process and our freedoms, our right to choose, is sacrificed. This just creates anger, hostility, defiance and hatred.... not to mention extreme costs to the budget.

[Charlatan]

Originally Posted by noodlebee

If you build up instead of out, it would be concrete jungle. The temperature inside concrete jungle is quite high because the buildings can make a lot of wind shadow.

This does not necessarily imply skyscrapers rather it suggests higher density. The tract housing that is our suburban dream has turned into a nightmare of highways, cars and the energy sink that is the average suburban home.

Additionally, with new technology like green roofs and other energy efficient building practices, the concrete jungle is less of an issue.


For me, I would like to see the price of gas go way up. The higher it goes, the more affordable alternatives become and the more incentive there is to develop other forms of cleaner and/or sustainable forms of power.

As long as oil/gas as a fuel is still affordable, nothing will really change.

[Baraka_Guru]

Originally Posted by Charlatan

This does not necessarily imply skyscrapers rather it suggests higher density. The tract housing that is our suburban dream has turned into a nightmare of highways, cars and the energy sink that is the average suburban home.

Thank you, Charlatan, for clarifying my a-little-too-pithy statement. This was what I was implying. The problem with our cities is that we don't have a sensible setup: we don't live, work, shop, and play in the same immediate area. Could you imagine not requiring a vehicle of any sort to do all of these in your typical week? No? Well, how do you think we got by for the past several thousand years? I know societies have changed based on necessity, but don't you think we have new necessities? We are killing ourselves with pollution. Our communities are fragmented as apathetic individualism runs rampant. I could give you a laundry list of problems that would at least in part be alleviated if we rethink our cities in structure alone.

Driving across a city should be a luxury, not an inevitability.

Originally Posted by Charlatan

For me, I would like to see the price of gas go way up. The higher it goes, the more affordable alternatives become and the more incentive there is to develop other forms of cleaner and/or sustainable forms of power.

As long as oil/gas as a fuel is still affordable, nothing will really change.

Ugh, all we'd have to do is remove the bloody government subsidies to the oil companies! They'd have to pass on the losses to the customer, prices would go up, and we'd have to actually adapt to the inevitable: an energy crisis that isn't likely to be fixed by increasing capacity/production/reserves. It's ridiculous to think of the amount of energy North Americans consume compared to virtually any other country in the world. A crisis? Our consumption is the biggest part of the problem.

[Cynthetiq]

Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru

Thank you, Charlatan, for clarifying my a-little-too-pithy statement. This was what I was implying. The problem with our cities is that we don't have a sensible setup: we don't live, work, shop, and play in the same immediate area. Could you imagine not requiring a vehicle of any sort to do all of these in your typical week? No? Well, how do you think we got by for the past several thousand years? I know societies have changed based on necessity, but don't you think we have new necessities? We are killing ourselves with pollution. Our communities are fragmented as apathetic individualism runs rampant. I could give you a laundry list of problems that would at least in part be alleviated if we rethink our cities in structure alone.

I live, work, and play in a 2 square mile area. I walk most of the time, but since the public transportation infrastructure exists, I use that as well. The benefit of living in a major metroplitan. I learned in Singapore that I didn't need to live like I did growing up in the San Fernando Valley of California. I drove or was driven everywhere.

I have to buy new shoes every year and even have my dress shoes for work resoled and reheeled every other year, that's how much walking I do.

Most of Manhattan is not tall skyscrapers, the dwelling are mostly not highrises but 4-5 floor walkups. They have their own challenges as well, such as bringing up groceries.

[Willravel]

This thread is interesting to sit and read, but I have to say, simply that large scale change like that which is necessary to stop using oil at such an alarming rate is not something the government or businesses will want to solve. The simple solution is, as always, grassroots spreading of information about alternates and good old fashioned action. Get a hybrid or a diesel that you run on biodiesel. It's not important that biodiesel isn't as efficient as it should be, it's important that the gas industry see a trend and follow it. Request hydrogen when you get a car, even knowing full well they don't have any yet. Give them the opportunity to brag about their concepts or shut up about their lack. Build your own electric car. Tell people about how to save energy derived from oil. Carpool. Get a hybrid. Boycott gas stations on designated days. Make a boycott day for your community. Walk or ride a bike once in a while, I mean the store isn't even 5 minutes away for most people. Use public transportation.

If enough people give a damn enough to change, the whole thing will work itself out because of the real power that consumers have.