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NCB 10-18-2006 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel
Yes, the name of religon kills. Because we've agreed on that fact, the next logical conclusion is to stop all religon. We should probably start with the biggest, theoritically saving the most people from death fastest. Which is the biggest religon, again? I'm trying to remember. It's like Judism and Islam, but not quite. It has followers in the highest eschelons of our own government. It rhymes with "fisty annity".

Your post wouldve been relevant 400 years ago, but there wasnt a fucking interweb to post on back then.

Willravel 10-18-2006 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NCB
Your post wouldve been relevant 400 years ago, but there wasnt a fucking interweb to post on back then.

I was building off your thought process, which I believe is fundamentally flawed, and shooting back at you....and then you took it apart. It's a common liberal tactic, you see. We repeat back to you what you say, then you call it absurd.

Ch'i 10-18-2006 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seaver
As my Psychology teacher pounded into our heads, "Correlation does not equal Causation." Correlation means they have a similarity, as in when one increases another does (or decreases) in a relatively close scale. Now it is a fact that if you rule out Islamic terrorists, the level of terrorism acts in the world dramatically decreases (though there still are acts).

I was under the impression that Mojo, like Ustwo, was making a generalization about Islam and Muslims. If your description is what Mojo meant then I am inclined to agree. There is more to Islamic terrorism than religion, however.

stevo 10-19-2006 06:40 AM

I think all I've been saying (in this thread) is that the "small minority" of muslims that are extremist and supporters of terrorism isn't as small as the left lilkes to believe. Take the poll I posted about Indonesia and lets expand on it a bit. If 18,700,000 indonesian muslims support terrorist activities against the west in the name of islam, and only 1% actually do something about it, then thats 187,000 people willing to kill you because you live in the west. And thats just from one country. Although, I beleive that if you take 100 extremist, terrorist supporting muslims you'll find more than one willing to kill you. That 1% figure is very low.

Moskie 10-19-2006 07:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevo
the "small minority" of muslims that are extremist and supporters of terrorism isn't as small as the left lilkes to believe.

Ok, that's fair. This is probably a direct result of the fact that we want the percentage of non-extremist muslims in the world to be higher than it is now.... which I think is something we should all want, right? I mean, I don't think anyone in this thread is going to say "I wish there were more Muslim extremists in the world."

But spreading the notion that Islam is evil does just that. Now, some of you might say I'm just denying reality in order to serve a purpose, but I disagree with that. It is not impossible to be a moderate, peaceful Muslim. Some of you believe that it's improbable, but we know it's not impossible. So us on the left have latched onto that notion, and are trying our best to make it more and more probable.

roachboy 10-19-2006 08:10 AM

there are problems with the way in which this correlation is being discussed, however.

seaver is correct in that correlation is not causation.
but it does not follow that all correlations are equal.
there are stronger and weaker.
and there are false ones.

the logic behind correlations here is basically a syllogism.
you know, the "all cretans are liars" thing (a=b, b=c, so a=c)
the issue with this is simple: if the variables you introduce into the game are screwy, the results of the operation will not tell you anything about that--all a syllogism does is enable you process whatever variable you introduce in a manner that is (presumably) formally correct.

among the problems with the definition of variable are:

1. you cannot equate the range of small dissident muslim groups that are the center of this contruct "terrorist" these days with islam as a whole and not end up with worthless correlations.

2. you cannot operate with no strict definition of what "terrorism" is and not end up with worthless correlations.

there are others that have to do with the effects of the category "terrorist" in stripping all considerations of politics away, all considerations of often very complex contexts, of simplifying situations not because they are amenable to it, but because you have introduced a fucked up category and find yourself performing the implications of that category as such (and not as a descriptor involving "the world")

on the first, i would hope that the problem is self-evident.
on the second, everything turns on the notion of "terrorism"--which is self-evidently an empty signifier that is given such content as it has as a function of ideological framing devices---if it means anything, it means "actions the present american administration does not like." and its specific signified is filled in by political argument.

so say you were to ask people in--o i dont know--indonesia, say the question "do you approve of the actions of al qeada?" the responses would not translate into "do you approve of terrorism" in any rational way simply because the question is not being interpreted that way in the survey--in other words, al qeada's actions mightbe understood elsewhere as political--that is about particular issues directed against reasonable targets with particular ends in mind--none of which follows from the notion "terrorism"

this kind of problem seems to me so entirely self-evident that i find it cotinually baffling to read posts from folk, particularly on the right here, that attempt to gloss over them--i assume that if you thought about what you were saying, you would in all likelihood not say it, simply given the severe problems of defining the basic terms--and a syllogism is really a kind of stupid machine in that (again) it does not enable any evaluation of WHAT is being processed, it simply IS a process.

given that, i tend to assume that the persuasive power of this kind of argument has to come from somewhere else--it is not reasonable analytically, it is flawed logically, etc.---and i find few good places to go in order to explain why these arguments are held up as viable.

so this explains to some extent my reactions to this kind of argument and to this kind of thread.

good to see folk putting their cards on the table above, tho, and beginning to nuance what they have been posting on this. thought i would do the same.

host 10-19-2006 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seaver
Ok Host, so Karzi is a proven ally with strong tribal roots in Afghanistan and a deep understanding of the culture. So obviously using him to aid our interests proves that Islamiscism is simply made up in order for Bush to declare war.

Sorry, if we weren't using Karzi's expertise in the region I would be pissed.

It's Khalilzad....he's the "one man" necon muslim "show"..., not Karzai....he's only the US/Khalilzad installed, "mayor of Kabul".....

Quote:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/cus...views.start=11
Tragic but true history, December 10, 2005

America has been the biggest supporter of international Islamism in the world, indeed, and a major financial source for it to get on its legs. However the role of America and the victories of Islamists have only sometimes coalesced.

Let us do a rundown:
Militant Islam begins in the early 20th century in Egypt among the Muslim Brothers and in Saudi among the Wahabbis and in Pakistan. Militant Islam gains its first victories in Iran(1979) and unleashes the Algerian civil war, then beats the Russians in Afghanistan, takes over Sudan. Then it spreads to Lebanon in the 1980s, Egypt as well and Pakistan and then into Europe in Bosnia in 1990s and Chechnya as well. Then there is 9/11. All the while it maintains Saudi as a rear bease.

America's support for this long history is scattered. America bankrolled the war in Afghanistan against the Communists. America supported the Muslim Brothers against Nasser in the 50s and 60s. America was involved in Bosnia and sided with Militant Islam against the Serbs. The case for American support of Hamas is tangential, and more an Israeli blunder. America had its first battle with Militant Islam in Lebanon in 1982. America ignored the Algerian Civil war. '

The truth is more blurry than this volume makes out. America didnt create militant Islam. America helped it grow. However America didnt 'cause' 9/11 anymore than America caused the Holocaust or America caused the Bombing of Pearl Harbor. Rather like in the latter cases, America is part of the picture. The choice to kill people in suicide mission is the fault and responsibility of the terrorist and his leader. America hopefully has learned from this disasterous policy, however in the case of Pakistan and Saudi, perhaps America is still blind.
<b>In my last post, I highlighted the reasons why I believe that the US is the principle "author" of Islamic militancy, as policy. The president's "message", is repetitive, inflammatorym and incoherent, given the background of US actions. If you pattern your opinion after what he says, your thougts will be incoherent, too, and your posts here reinforce my observation....</b>
Quote:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...0051006-3.html
For Immediate Release
Office of the Press Secretary
October 6, 2005

President Discusses War on Terror at National Endowment for Democracy
Ronald Reagan Building and International Trade Center
Washington, D.C.


video screen capture
multimedia

President's Remarks
video image view


Fact sheet In Focus: National Security
Fact sheet In Focus: Renewal in Iraq
Fact sheet Fact Sheet: War on Terror
Fact sheet Fact Sheet: Plots, Casings, and Infiltrations Referenced in President Bush's Remarks on the War on Terror

10:07 A.M. EDT

THE PRESIDENT: Thank you all. (Applause.) Thank you all. Please be seated. (Applause.) Thank you for the warm welcome. I'm honored once again to be with the supporters of the National Endowment for Democracy. Since the day President Ronald Reagan set out the vision for this Endowment, the world has seen the swiftest advance of democratic institutions in history. And Americans are proud to have played our role in this great story....

....The images and experience of September the 11th are unique for Americans. Yet the evil of that morning has reappeared on other days, in other places -- in Mombasa, and Casablanca, and Riyadh, and Jakarta, and Istanbul, and Madrid, and Beslan, and Taba, and Netanya, and Baghdad, and elsewhere. In the past few months, we've seen a new terror offensive with attacks on London, and Sharm el-Sheikh, and a deadly bombing in Bali once again. All these separate images of destruction and suffering that we see on the news can seem like random and isolated acts of madness; innocent men and women and children have died simply because they boarded the wrong train, or worked in the wrong building, or checked into the wrong hotel. Yet while the killers choose their victims indiscriminately, their attacks serve a clear and focused ideology, a set of beliefs and goals that are evil, but not insane.

<h3>Some call this evil Islamic radicalism; others, militant Jihadism; still others, Islamo-fascism. Whatever it's called, this ideology is very different from the religion of Islam.</h3> This form of radicalism exploits Islam to serve a violent, political vision: the establishment, by terrorism and subversion and insurgency, of a totalitarian empire that denies all political and religious freedom. These extremists distort the idea of jihad into a call for terrorist murder against Christians and Jews and Hindus -- and also against Muslims from other traditions, who they regard as heretics.

Many militants are part of global, borderless terrorist organizations like al Qaeda, which spreads propaganda, and provides financing and technical assistance to local extremists, and conducts dramatic and brutal operations like September the 11th. Other militants are found in regional groups, often associated with al Qaeda -- paramilitary insurgencies and separatist movements in places like Somalia, and the Philippines, and Pakistan, and Chechnya, and Kashmir, and Algeria. Still others spring up in local cells, inspired by Islamic radicalism, but not centrally directed. Islamic radicalism is more like a loose network with many branches than an army under a single command. Yet these operatives, fighting on scattered battlefields, share a similar ideology and vision for our world.

We know the vision of the radicals because they've openly stated it -- in videos, and audiotapes, and letters, and declarations, and websites. First, these extremists want to end American and Western influence in the broader Middle East, because we stand for democracy and peace, and stand in the way of their ambitions. Al Qaeda's leader, Osama bin Laden, has called on Muslims to dedicate, quote, their "resources, sons and money to driving the infidels out of their lands." Their tactic to meet this goal has been consistent for a quarter-century: They hit us, and expect us to run. They want us to repeat the sad history of Beirut in 1983, and Mogadishu in 1993 -- only this time on a larger scale, with greater consequences.

President George W. Bush addresses his remarks on the War on Terror, Thursday, Oct. 6, 2005, speaking before the National Endowment for Democracy at the Ronald Reagan Building and International Trade Center in Washington. White House photo by Eric Draper Second, the militant network wants to use the vacuum created by an American retreat to gain control of a country, a base from which to launch attacks and conduct their war against non-radical Muslim governments. Over the past few decades, radicals have specifically targeted Egypt, and Saudi Arabia, and Pakistan, and Jordan for potential takeover. They achieved their goal, for a time, in Afghanistan. Now they've set their sights on Iraq. Bin Laden has stated: "The whole world is watching this war and the two adversaries. It's either victory and glory, or misery and humiliation." The terrorists regard Iraq as the central front in their war against humanity. And we must recognize Iraq as the central front in our war on terror.

Third, the militants believe that controlling one country will rally the Muslim masses, enabling them to overthrow all moderate governments in the region, <h3>and establish a radical Islamic empire that spans from Spain to Indonesia.......</h3>

....Some have also argued that extremism has been strengthened by the actions of our coalition in Iraq, claiming that our presence in that country has somehow caused or triggered the rage of radicals. I would remind them that we were not in Iraq on September the 11th, 2001 -- and al Qaeda attacked us anyway. The hatred of the radicals existed before Iraq was an issue, and it will exist after Iraq is no longer an excuse. The government of Russia did not support Operation Iraqi Freedom, and yet the militants killed more than 180 Russian schoolchildren in Beslan.

Over the years these extremists have used a litany of excuses for violence -- the Israeli presence on the West Bank, or the U.S. military presence in Saudi Arabia, or the defeat of the Taliban, or the Crusades of a thousand years ago. In fact, we're not facing a set of grievances that can be soothed and addressed. We're facing a radical ideology with inalterable objectives: to enslave whole nations and intimidate the world. No act of ours invited the rage of the killers -- and no concession, bribe, or act of appeasement would change or limit their plans for murder.

On the contrary: They target nations whose behavior they believe they can change through violence. Against such an enemy, there is only one effective response: We will never back down, never give in, and never accept anything less than complete victory. (Applause.)

The murderous ideology of the Islamic radicals is the great challenge of our new century. Yet, in many ways, this fight resembles the struggle against communism in the last century. Like the ideology of communism, Islamic radicalism is elitist, led by a self-appointed vanguard that presumes to speak for the Muslim masses. Bin Laden says his own role is to tell Muslims, quote, "what is good for them and what is not." And what this man who grew up in wealth and privilege considers good for poor Muslims is that they become killers and suicide bombers. He assures them that his -- that this is the road to paradise -- though he never offers to go along for the ride.

Like the ideology of communism, our new enemy teaches that innocent individuals can be sacrificed to serve a political vision. And this explains their cold-blooded contempt for human life. We've seen it in the murders of Daniel Pearl, Nicholas Berg, and Margaret Hassan, and many others. In a courtroom in the Netherlands, the killer of Theo Van Gogh turned to the victim's grieving mother and said, "I do not feel your pain -- because I believe you are an infidel." And in spite of this veneer of religious rhetoric, most of the victims claimed by the militants are fellow Muslims.

When 25 Iraqi children are killed in a bombing, or Iraqi teachers are executed at their school, or hospital workers are killed caring for the wounded, this is murder, pure and simple -- the total rejection of justice and honor and morality and religion. These militants are not just the enemies of America, or the enemies of Iraq, they are the enemies of Islam and the enemies of humanity. (Applause.) We have seen this kind of shameless cruelty before, in the heartless zealotry that led to the gulags, and the Cultural Revolution, and the killing fields.

Like the ideology of communism, our new enemy pursues totalitarian aims. Its leaders pretend to be an aggrieved party, representing the powerless against imperial enemies. In truth they have endless ambitions of imperial domination, and they wish to make everyone powerless except themselves. Under their rule, they have banned books, and desecrated historical monuments, and brutalized women. They seek to end dissent in every form, and to control every aspect of life, and to rule the soul, itself. While promising a future of justice and holiness, the terrorists are preparing for a future of oppression and misery.

Like the ideology of communism, our new enemy is dismissive of free peoples, claiming that men and women who live in liberty are weak and decadent. Zarqawi has said that Americans are, quote, "the most cowardly of God's creatures." But let's be clear: It is cowardice that seeks to kill children and the elderly with car bombs, and cuts the throat of a bound captive, and targets worshipers leaving a mosque. It is courage that liberated more than 50 million people. It is courage that keeps an untiring vigil against the enemies of a rising democracy. And it is courage in the cause of freedom that once again will destroy the enemies of freedom. (Applause.)

And Islamic radicalism, like the ideology of communism, contains inherent contradictions that doom it to failure. By fearing freedom -- by distrusting human creativity, and punishing change, and limiting the contributions of half the population -- this ideology undermines the very qualities that make human progress possible, and human societies successful. The only thing modern about the militants' vision is the weapons they want to use against us. The rest of their grim vision is defined by a warped image of the past -- a declaration of war on the idea of progress, itself. And whatever lies ahead in the war against this ideology, the outcome is not in doubt: Those who despise freedom and progress have condemned themselves to isolation, decline, and collapse. Because free peoples believe in the future, free peoples will own the future. (Applause.)

We didn't ask for this global struggle, but we're answering history's call with confidence, and a comprehensive strategy. Defeating a broad and adaptive network requires patience, constant pressure, and strong partners in Europe, the Middle East, North Africa, Asia and beyond. Working with these partners, we're disrupting militant conspiracies, destroying their ability to make war, and working to give millions in a troubled region of the world a hopeful alternative to resentment and violence.

First, we're determined to prevent the attacks of terrorist networks before they occur. We're reorganizing our government to give this nation a broad and coordinated homeland defense. We're reforming our intelligence agencies for the incredibly difficult task of tracking enemy activity, based on information that often comes in small fragments from widely scattered sources, here and abroad. We're acting, along with the governments from many countries, to destroy the terrorist networks and incapacitate their leaders. Together, we've killed or captured nearly all of those directly responsible for the September the 11th attacks; as well as some of bin Laden's most senior deputies; al Qaeda managers and operatives in more than 24 countries; the mastermind of the USS Cole bombing, who was chief of al Qaeda operations in the Persian Gulf; the mastermind of the Jakarta and the first Bali bombings; a senior Zarqawi terrorist planner, who was planning attacks in Turkey; and many of al Qaeda's senior leaders in Saudi Arabia.

Overall, the United States and our partners have disrupted at least ten serious al Qaeda terrorist plots since September the 11th, including three al Qaeda plots to attack inside the United States. We've stopped at least five more al Qaeda efforts to case targets in the United States, or infiltrate operatives into our country. Because of this steady progress, the enemy is wounded -- but the enemy is still capable of global operations. Our commitment is clear: We will not relent until the organized international terror networks are exposed and broken, and their leaders held to account for their acts of murder.

Second, we're determined to deny weapons of mass destruction to outlaw regimes, and to their terrorist allies who would use them without hesitation. The United States, working with Great Britain, Pakistan, and other nations, has exposed and disrupted a major black-market operation in nuclear technology led by A.Q. Khan. Libya has abandoned its chemical and nuclear weapons programs, as well as long-range ballistic missiles. And in the last year, America and our partners in the Proliferation Security Initiative have stopped more than a dozen shipments of suspected weapons technology, including equipment for Iran's ballistic missile program.

This progress has reduced the danger to free nations, but has not removed it. Evil men who want to use horrendous weapons against us are working in deadly earnest to gain them. And we're working urgently to keep weapons of mass destruction out of their hands.

Third, we're determined to deny radical groups the support and sanctuary of outlaw regimes. State sponsors like Syria and Iran have a long history of collaboration with terrorists, and they deserve no patience from the victims of terror. The United States makes no distinction between those who commit acts of terror and those who support and harbor them, because they're equally as guilty of murder. (Applause.) Any government that chooses to be an ally of terror has also chosen to be an enemy of civilization. And the civilized world must hold those regimes to account.

Fourth, we're determined to deny the militants control of any nation, which they would use as a home base and a launching pad for terror. For this reason, we're fighting beside our Afghan partners against remnants of the Taliban and their al Qaeda allies. For this reason, we're working with President Musharraf to oppose and isolate the militants in Pakistan. And for this reason, we're fighting the regime remnants and terrorists in Iraq. The terrorist goal is to overthrow a rising democracy, claim a strategic country as a haven for terror, destabilize the Middle East, and strike America and other free nations with ever-increasing violence. Our goal is to defeat the terrorists and their allies at the heart of their power -- and so we will defeat the enemy in Iraq.

Our coalition, along with our Iraqi allies, is moving forward with a comprehensive, specific military plan. Area by area, city by city, we're conducting offensive operations to clear out enemy forces, and leaving behind Iraqi units to prevent the enemy from returning. Within these areas, we're working for tangible improvements in the lives of Iraqi citizens. And we're aiding the rise of an elected government that unites the Iraqi people against extremism and violence. This work involves great risk for Iraqis, and for Americans and coalition forces. Wars are not won without sacrifice -- and this war will require more sacrifice, more time, and more resolve.

The terrorists are as brutal an enemy as we've ever faced. They're unconstrained by any notion of our common humanity, or by the rules of warfare. No one should underestimate the difficulties ahead, nor should they overlook the advantages we bring to this fight.

Some observers look at the job ahead and adopt a self-defeating pessimism. It is not justified. With every random bombing and with every funeral of a child, it becomes more clear that the extremists are not patriots, or resistance fighters -- they are murderers at war with the Iraqi people, themselves.

In contrast, the elected leaders of Iraq are proving to be strong and steadfast. By any standard or precedent of history, Iraq has made incredible political progress -- from tyranny, to liberation, to national elections, to the writing of a constitution, in the space of two-and-a-half years. With our help, the Iraqi military is gaining new capabilities and new confidence with every passing month. At the time of our Fallujah operations 11 months ago, there were only a few Iraqi army battalions in combat. Today there are more than 80 Iraqi army battalions fighting the insurgency alongside our forces. Progress isn't easy, but it is steady. And no fair-minded person should ignore, deny, or dismiss the achievements of the Iraqi people.

Some observers question the durability of democracy in Iraq. They underestimate the power and appeal of freedom. We've heard it suggested that Iraq's democracy must be on shaky ground because Iraqis are arguing with each other. But that's the essence of democracy: making your case, debating with those who you disagree -- who disagree, building consensus by persuasion, and answering to the will of the people. We've heard it said that the Shia, Sunnis and Kurds of Iraq are too divided to form a lasting democracy. In fact, democratic federalism is the best hope for unifying a diverse population, because a federal constitutional system respects the rights and religious traditions of all citizens, while giving all minorities, including the Sunnis, a stake and a voice in the future of their country. It is true that the seeds of freedom have only recently been planted in Iraq -- but democracy, when it grows, is not a fragile flower; it is a healthy, sturdy tree. (Applause.)

As Americans, we believe that people everywhere -- everywhere -- prefer freedom to slavery, and that liberty, once chosen, improves the lives of all. And so we're confident, as our coalition and the Iraqi people each do their part, Iraqi democracy will succeed.

Some observers also claim that America would be better off by cutting our losses and leaving Iraq now. This is a dangerous illusion, refuted with a simple question: Would the United States and other free nations be more safe, or less safe, with Zarqawi and bin Laden in control of Iraq, its people, and its resources? Having removed a dictator who hated free peoples, we will not stand by as a new set of killers, dedicated to the destruction of our own country, seizes control of Iraq by violence.

There's always a temptation, in the middle of a long struggle, to seek the quiet life, to escape the duties and problems of the world, and to hope the enemy grows weary of fanaticism and tired of murder. This would be a pleasant world, but it's not the world we live in. The enemy is never tired, never sated, never content with yesterday's brutality. This enemy considers every retreat of the civilized world as an invitation to greater violence. In Iraq, there is no peace without victory. We will keep our nerve and we will win that victory. (Applause.)

The fifth element of our strategy in the war on terror is to deny the militants future recruits by replacing hatred and resentment with democracy and hope across the broader Middle East. This is a difficult and long-term project, yet there's no alternative to it. Our future and the future of that region are linked. If the broader Middle East is left to grow in bitterness, if countries remain in misery, while radicals stir the resentments of millions, then that part of the world will be a source of endless conflict and mounting danger, and for our generation and the next. If the peoples of that region are permitted to choose their own destiny, and advance by their own energy and by their participation as free men and women, then the extremists will be marginalized, and the flow of violent radicalism to the rest of the world will slow, and eventually end. By standing for the hope and freedom of others, we make our own freedom more secure.

America is making this stand in practical ways. We're encouraging our friends in the Middle East, including Egypt and Saudi Arabia, to take the path of reform, to strengthen their own societies in the fight against terror by respecting the rights and choices of their own people. We're standing with dissidents and exiles against oppressive regimes, because we know that the dissidents of today will be the democratic leaders of tomorrow. We're making our case through public diplomacy, stating clearly and confidently our belief in self-determination, and the rule of law, and religious freedom, and equal rights for women, beliefs that are right and true in every land, and in every culture. (Applause.)

<b>As we do our part to confront radicalism, we know that the most vital work will be done within the Islamic world, itself. And this work has begun. Many Muslim scholars have already publicly condemned terrorism, often citing Chapter 5, Verse 32 of the Koran, which states that killing an innocent human being is like killing all humanity, and saving the life of one person is like saving all of humanity. After the attacks in London on July the 7th, an imam in the United Arab Emirates declared, "Whoever does such a thing is not a Muslim, nor a religious person." The time has come for all responsible Islamic leaders to join in denouncing an ideology that exploits Islam for political ends, and defiles a noble faith.</b>

Many people of the Muslim faith are proving their commitment at great personal risk. Everywhere we have engaged the fight against extremism, Muslim allies have stood up and joined the fight, becoming partners in a vital cause. Afghan troops are in combat against Taliban remnants. Iraqi soldiers are sacrificing to defeat al Qaeda in their own country. These brave citizens know the stakes -- the survival of their own liberty, the future of their own region, the justice and humanity of their own tradition -- and that United States of America is proud to stand beside them. (Applause.)

With the rise of a deadly enemy and the unfolding of a global ideological struggle, our time in history will be remembered for new challenges and unprecedented dangers. And yet the fight we have joined is also the current expression of an ancient struggle, between those who put their faith in dictators, and those who put their faith in the people. Throughout history, tyrants and would-be tyrants have always claimed that murder is justified to serve their grand vision -- and they end up alienating decent people across the globe. Tyrants and would-be tyrants have always claimed that regimented societies are strong and pure -- until those societies collapse in corruption and decay. Tyrants and would-be tyrants have always claimed that free men and women are weak and decadent -- until the day that free men and women defeat them.

We don't know the course of our own struggle -- the course our own struggle will take -- or the sacrifices that might lie ahead. We do know, however, that the defense of freedom is worth our sacrifice. We do know the love of freedom is the mightiest force of history. And we do know the cause of freedom will once again prevail.

May God bless you. (Applause.)

stevo 10-19-2006 12:20 PM

Whats with those articles host? You can't actually believe them. I mean, you said yourself that islamofascism doesn't exist, yet here you go posting these articles. What gives?

roachboy 10-19-2006 12:35 PM

well stevo, the word "islamofascism" exists, obviously, because you like to use it and i dont think you just made it up.
and since you use the word, i would assume that it has some organizing power for you, if not much in the way of explanatory power.
but that does not mean that the phenomenon you organize by using this word actually exists in the world---only in the way you stage the world as you use the category to organize it.
ideological categories are like that--this is how the operate, and this is what they are (they are how they operate)

that help?

of course, i am not speaking for host here---i dont think we are pursuing the same kind of argument in this context.

stevo 10-19-2006 12:57 PM

Quote:

Some call this evil Islamic radicalism; others, militant Jihadism; still others, Islamo-fascism. Whatever it's called, this ideology is very different from the religion of Islam.
Maybe I should hyphenate it? if I asked about militant jihadism would I get the same response?

host 10-19-2006 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevo
Maybe I should hyphenate it? if I asked about militant jihadism would I get the same response?

Consider that current US ambassador to Iraq, and former US ambassador to Afghanistan, (aka "Viceroy") Zalmay Khalilzad was an assistant professor at Columbia U., influenced by Carter Nat.Security Advisor, Z. Brzezinski. Consider that <b>"jihad"</b> was a psy-ops "tool" of US, "force multplication policy, intent on destabalizing the Soviet military in Afghanistan, by exploiting the latent religious "fervor" of the native islamic Afghan people....and that a larger goal was to, as Richard Pipes is quote saying, below, to incite "hatred that can quickly explode into genocidal fury", by US "ops" aimed at muslims in Soviet provinces.

I document the reporting of Richard Pipes as a "neocon", in 1981, <b>and the "Team B", "op" that was a predecessor of the more recent neocon effort to challenge and manipulate CIA intelligence about Iraqi WMD....in order to exaggerate the threat of the Soviet Union in the late 70's and early 80'a....</b>

Consider that much of the influence on your opinions about islam and about the islamic "threat", comes from the hyperactive islamophobe, Daniel Pipes, son of Richard Pipes, and, a Bush "recess appointee" who is as much of a belligerant and as lacking as a diplomat, as John Bolton.

It amazes me that so many folks who embrace the politics to the right of the center, also embrace the "thinking" of these militarist neocon nutcases....what have they been "right" about, compared to what their meddling has cost the US, during the past 30 years. Brzesinksi's decisions in countering the Soviets, via Afghanistan, place him squarely....in the late 70's, in the neocon "camp".

<b>Consider that, as Daniel Pipes is the son of Richard, your "targeting" of militant islam is the "son" of your own neocon forebearer's short sighted, and failed strategy....you're now "very concerned" by the "blow back" of the CIA brainwashing of young central Asian and middle eastern muslims, over at least the past 30 nearly years..... the implication is that your "belief system", and you're GWOT "leaders", are all "rubbing one off", in a "circle jerk" that is the "fruit" of the failed "psy-ops" that you now clamor for even more of, because your own neocon polluted government stays "on message" (the "caliphate" ...from spain to indonesia....bullshit...) to perpetually tweak your fears....</b>
Quote:

http://www.tenc.net/analysis/zbi-zal.htm
.....The second problem with the Khalilzad/Unocal argument, related to the first, is that it violates a prime rule learned by every first year statistics student. That rule is, "Correlation Does Not Prove Cause."

Right off the bat, no less than three hypotheses could easily (indeed better!) explain the *correlation* between Khalilzad's gig at Unocal and his present high-power position in Afghanistan.

* Hypothesis 1: Khalilzad Was Used As A Door Opener *

Khalilzad has been a key player in the Imperial policy of using Afghanistan to hurt Russia, a policy that began in 1979 and has never stopped. Therefore he is very powerful, and Unocal hired him, as companies often hire powerful people, as a figurehead, because his name opens doors in Washington and Afghanistan, and he had no objection to taking their money. And precisely because he has been a key foreign policy strategist (since 1985), now that NATO is once again using Afghanistan to attack Russia, it is natural that he take direct charge in Afghanistan.

And/or:

* Hypothesis 2: Unocal Was Used by Khalilzad as a Cover for Covert Work *

Since 1979, US and Saudi secret services and their offspring, the Pakistani ISI (secret service), have managed the attack on Afghanistan, in which Khalilzad was a *very* high-level operator. He accepted the job at Unocal as a cover for some covert assignment involving relations with the Taliban, the Northern Alliance, or whomever

And/or:

* Hypothesis 3: Unocal Acted as an Agent of Western Policy in Afghanistan *

Pipelines mainly benefit the governments of the countries they pass through in the same way that taxi rides benefit the taxicab owners: because sovereign governments are paid a fee based on the volume of oil that passes through their territories. The Imperial plan was for the Taliban to consolidate control of Afghanistan by defeating or uniting with the Northern Alliance. Therefore Unocal, which enjoys friendly relations with the CIA, dangled the carrot of a pipeline before the Taliban, stressing:

"the benefits such a pipeline could bring to this desperately poor and war-torn country"

with the proviso that:

"the project could not and would not proceed until there was an internationally recognized government in place in Afghanistan that fairly represented all its people." http://web.archive.org/web/200111211...ews/091401.htm

Under cover of being a consultant, Zalmay Khalilzad's role was to assist the Unocal people in properly dangling the pipeline carrot.

Hypotheses One, Two and Three are not contradictory. All three could be true. Moreover they are not pure speculation because they are based on the study of actual data. Some of this data is cited in articles you can link to in *Further Reading*, at the end.

I dug up some fresh data during 30 hours spent on the Internet reading newspaper and other reports published over the past 17 years about Zalmay Khalilzad. It's clear that he's important, so I will try to assemble a chronological account of Khalilzad's career. Anyway, as an appetizer, here are two pieces of information from the mid-1980s.

* Zalmay Khalilzad in 1986 *

According to a Feb. 5, 1986 article in the Washington Post, on Feb. 1, 1986 Khalilzad participated, as an "outside [i.e., outside of government] expert" on Afghanistan, in a VIP seminar on Afghanistan, sponsored by US Secretary of State George P. Schultz. Other participants included:

* Caspar W. Weinberger, Secretary of Defense;

* William J. Casey, Director of CIA;

* Zbigniew Brzezinski, formerly the Security Adviser to President Carter and, according to his own 'boast', a key planner of the terrorist war against Afghanistan in the 1980s;

* Donald Rumsfeld and James Schlesinger, both at that time former secretaries of defense;

* And William Hyland, editor of Foreign Affairs, the magazine of the powerful Council on Foreign Relations, and previously perhaps the top CIA expert on Russia.

Prof. Zalmay Khalilzad was then about 35 years old. The men named above were in their 50s, 60s or older.

* Zalmay Khalilzad In 1985 *

The year before Secretary of State Shultz's seminar, Zalmay Khalilzad's name came up in an AP dispatch which I've posted in full below.

Here are a few things I noticed about the dispatch:

* Though Khalilzad was then about 34 years old, the AP refers to him as a "luminary".

* Khalilzad was on the Board of a company called Friends of Afghanistan. Also on the Board was Zbigniew Brzezinski, a key advocate of using Afghanistan to attack Russia. (2)

* According to the AP dispatch, in 1985 Congress passed a law creating a fund to influence public opinion to support the terrorist Mujahideen. Congress virtually ordered that Friends of Afghanistan be hired for this work. It authorized $500 000 to start (about $1 Million today) with another $500 000 expected.

This AP dispatch is evidence that a) though very young, Khalilzad was an associate if not a protege of Brzezinski and b) Khalilzad was already trusted by the powers-that-be to oversee the crucial work of organizing public support for the unsupportable US policy of fostering Islamic terrorism to destroy the Soviet Union. The "marching order" (AP's phrase) to hire Friends of Afghanistan certainly sounds like Friends was a top-level CIA front disguised as a private company, the better to deal with the press.

* The media has now rewritten history, propagating the view that US officials were simply unaware of the Islamic fanaticism of the pro-US side in Afghanistan. <b>Zalmay Khalilzad has voiced this "we didn't know" line himself.</b> (I have unfortunately misplaced the quote in which he claims "I never knew how bad they were" but hopefully I'll find it again.)

As the AP dispatch below demonstrates, during the 1980s war the Western media misdescribed Islamic fundamentalists as "rebels." Thus the AP says:

"Afghan rebels, called the Mujahadeen [sic!], have been battling 100,000 Soviet troops..."

<b>as if Mujahideen were a local name for these "rebels" rather than an Arabic word. 'Mu' means 'one who.' 'Jahid' equals 'Jihad' means 'struggle' or 'strive for' but in practice - and abundantly in the Muslim holy writings, alhadith, the narrations about the life of Muhammad - it means leaving home to fight for Islam. So a Mujahid is one fights for Islam. "Een" makes it plural. So Mujahideen are Islamic holy warriors. Muslim holy texts devote much attention to the special place in heaven reserved for slain Mujahideen.</b> (See for example http://www.2600.com/news/mirrors/har...ihad/grade.htm )
It is inconceivable that any reporter covering the Afghan travesty <b>was unaware that the US was promoting Islamic holy warriors. Prof. Khalilzad, who is from Afghanistan, of course knew exactly what sort of forces were being created by the CIA et al in his country.</b> The job of Friends of Afghanistan was precisely to play down the Islamic holy warrior reality, and play up the phony 'victimized rebels fighting Soviet tyranny' baloney.

In any case, unless Khalilzad's career did a nosedive after 1985-6, surely he is *not* a person one would define by his very brief stint as "an advisor to Unocal."

We'll look at Khalilzad more in a later article, but for now, here is the AP dispatch.

[Note added 1 March 2003: That article can now be read.] http://emperors-clothes.com/archive/khalilzad-facts.htm

-- Jared Israel.

Headline: U.S. Provides $500 000 So Afghan Rebels Can Tell Their Story

AP, September 16, 1985, Monday, PM cycle SECTION: Washington Dateline

By JOAN MOWER

WASHINGTON

Guerrillas in Afghanistan are about to get money from the United States government for a public relations campaign intended to bring their struggle against Soviet troops to the world's attention.

The money will train Afghan rebel journalists to use television, radio and newspapers to advance their cause. Reporters will be given mini-cameras to photograph the war inside Afghanistan.

"It is the goal of this project to facilitate the collection, development and distribution of credible, objective and timely professional-quality news stories, photographs and television images about developments in Afghanistan," said a notice in the Federal Register. The program will be overseen by Uncle Sam's own propaganda arm, the U.S. Information Agency. Congress appropriated $500 000 to hire experts and may provide more later.

In making the money available, Congress all but instructed USIA to consider an organization like Friends of Afghanistan, a new group whose board includes former Carter administration national security adviser Zbigniew Brzezinski, known for hard-line anti-Soviet views.....
Quote:

http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/BRZ110A.html
According to this 1998 interview with Zbigniew Brzezinski, the CIA's intervention in Afghanistan preceded the 1979 Soviet invasion. This decision of the Carter Administration in 1979 to intervene and destabilise Afghanistan is the root cause of Afghanistan's destruction as a nation.

M.C.
The CIA's Intervention in Afghanistan
Interview with Zbigniew Brzezinski,
President Jimmy Carter's National Security Adviser

Le Nouvel Observateur, Paris, 15-21 January 1998
Posted at globalresearch.ca 15 October 2001

Question: The former director of the CIA, Robert Gates, stated in his memoirs ["From the Shadows"], that American intelligence services began to aid the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan 6 months before the Soviet intervention. In this period you were the national security adviser to President Carter. You therefore played a role in this affair. Is that correct?

Brzezinski: Yes. According to the official version of history, CIA aid to the Mujahadeen began during 1980, that is to say, after the Soviet army invaded Afghanistan, 24 Dec 1979. <h3>But the reality, secretly guarded until now, is completely otherwise Indeed, it was July 3, 1979 that President Carter signed the first directive for secret aid to the opponents of the pro-Soviet regime in Kabul.</h3> And that very day, I wrote a note to the president in which I explained to him that in my opinion this aid was going to induce a Soviet military intervention.

Q: Despite this risk, you were an advocate of this covert action. But perhaps you yourself desired this Soviet entry into war and looked to provoke it?

B: It isn't quite that. We didn't push the Russians to intervene, but we knowingly increased the probability that they would.

Q: When the Soviets justified their intervention by asserting that they intended to fight against a secret involvement of the United States in Afghanistan, people didn't believe them. However, there was a basis of truth. You don't regret anything today?

B: Regret what? That secret operation was an excellent idea. It had the effect of drawing the Russians into the Afghan trap and you want me to regret it? The day that the Soviets officially crossed the border, <b>I wrote to President Carter. We now have the opportunity of giving to the USSR its Vietnam war.</b> Indeed, for almost 10 years, Moscow had to carry on a war unsupportable by the government, a conflict that brought about the demoralization and finally the breakup of the Soviet empire.

<b>Q: And neither do you regret having supported the Islamic fundamentalism, having given arms and advice to future terrorists?

B: What is most important to the history of the world? The Taliban or the collapse of the Soviet empire? Some stirred-up Moslems or the liberation of Central Europe and the end of the cold war?</b>

Q: Some stirred-up Moslems? But it has been said and repeated Islamic fundamentalism represents a world menace today.

B: Nonsense! It is said that the West had a global policy in regard to Islam. That is stupid. There isn't a global Islam. Look at Islam in a rational manner and without demagoguery or emotion. It is the leading religion of the world with 1.5 billion followers. But what is there in common among Saudi Arabian fundamentalism, moderate Morocco, Pakistan militarism, Egyptian pro-Western or Central Asian secularism? Nothing more than what unites the Christian countries.
Quote:

http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/a...-dec/clem.html
Air University Review, November-December 1986
The Soviet Union:
Crisis, Stability, or Renewal?

Dr. Ralph S. Clem

<b>the Ethnic Factor</b>

......The maintenance of this "Soviet empire" is then said to be dependent on clever manipulation of the political system and the pervasiveness of the secret police. Such a situation, according to Richard Pipes, means that ". . . ethnic conflicts in the USSR assume the form of a battle of wits . . . [wherein the non-Russians] . . . try to outsmart Moscow."23 Beneath the surface, however, Pipes believes that "there smolders resentment and, in some areas, hatred that can quickly explode into genocidal fury should the heavy hand of Russian authority weaken."24.......
Quote:

http://www.thenation.com/doc/19990215/hiro/2
article | posted January 28, 1999 (February 15, 1999 issue)
The Cost of an Afghan 'Victory'

Dilip Hiro

page 2 of 4 | PREV 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 NEXT

As for Saudi Arabia, the remaining member of the troika, it had long been a bulwark of anti-Communism, its rulers lavish in their funding of antileftist forces around the globe--be it in Angola, Mozambique, Portugal or Italy. The fact that the population of Afghanistan was 99 percent Muslim was an additional incentive to Riyadh.

The US-Saudi-Pakistani alliance's financing, training and arming of the mujahedeen--recruited from among the 3 million Afghan refugees in Pakistan--was coordinated and supervised by the CIA. The day-to-day management rested with Pakistan's ISI. All donations in weapons and cash to the campaign by various sources--chiefly Washington and Riyadh--were handled by the CIA. These amounted to about $40 billion, with the bulk coming from the United States and Saudi Arabia, which contributed equally.

The volunteers underwent military training and political education. Both were imparted by the ISI. <h3>In the political classes the mujahedeen were given a strong dose of nationalism and Islam.</h3> The fact that the Soviets were foreign and atheistic made them doubly despicable. The intention was to fire up militant Muslims to fight Soviet imperialism. Armed with CIA-supplied Stinger missiles in the later stages of the jihad, the mujahedeen made a hash of Soviet helicopter gunships, a critical tool of the USSR's counterinsurgency campaign.
Quote:

http://rightweb.irc-online.org/analy.../0402teamb.php
A History of Threat Escalation
Remembering Team B
By Tom Barry | February 12, 2004

The most notorious attempt by militarists and right-wing ideologues <b>to challenge the CIA was the Team B affair in the mid-1970s.</b> The 1975-76 “Team B” operation was a classic case of threat escalation by hawks determined to increase military budgets and step up the U.S. offensive in the cold war. Concocted by right-wing ideologues and militarists, Team B aimed to bury the politics of détente and the SALT arms negotiations, which were supported by the leadership of both political parties. 1

The historical record shows that the call for an independent assessment of the CIA's conclusions came from the President's Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board (PFIAB--pronounced piffy-ab ). But <b>the fear-mongering and challenges to the CIA's threat assessments--known as National Intelligence Estimates--actually started with nuclear strategist Albert Wohlstetter, who laid down the gauntlet in a 1974 Foreign Policy article entitled “Is There a Strategic Arms Race?” 2 Wohlstetter answered his rhetorical question negatively, concluding that the United States was allowing the Soviet Union to achieve military superiority by not closing the “missile gap.”</b> Having inspired the Gaither Commission in 1957 to raise the missile gap alarm, Wohlstetter applied the same threat assessment methodology to energize hawks, cold warriors, and right-wing anticommunists in the mid-1970s to kill the politics of détente and increase budget allocations for the Pentagon. Following his Foreign Policy essay, Wohlstetter, who had left his full-time position at RAND to become a professor at the University of Chicago, organized an informal study group that included younger neoconservatives such as Paul Wolfowitz and longtime hawks like Paul Nitze.

PFIAB, which was dominated by right-wingers and hawks, followed Wohlstetter's lead and joined the threat assessment battle by calling in 1975 for an independent committee to evaluate the CIA's intelligence estimates. Testimony by PFIAB President Leo Cherne to the House Intelligence Committee in December 1975 alerted committee members to the need for better intelligence about the Soviet Union. “Intelligence cannot help a nation find its soul,” said Cherne. “It is indispensable, however, to help preserve the nation's safety, while it continues its search,” he added. George Bush Sr., who was about to leave his ambassadorship in China to become director of intelligence at the CIA, congratulated Cherne on his testimony, indicating that he would not oppose an independent evaluation of CIA intelligence estimates.


Rumsfeld, Cheney, and Bush Support Team B

Joining in the chorus of praise, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld and Bechtel's president George Shultz also congratulated Cherne, implicitly adding their backing for an independent threat assessment committee. 3 Led by several of the board's more hawkish members--including John Foster, Edward Teller, William Casey, Seymour Weiss, W. Glenn Campbell, and Clare Booth Luce--PFIAB had earlier in 1975 called for an independent evaluation of the CIA's national intelligence estimates. Feeling that the country's nuclear weapons industry and capacity was threatened, PFIAB was aiming to derail the arms control treaties then under negotiation.

Shortly after President Gerald Ford appointed Bush to be the new director of intelligence, replacing the beleaguered William Colby, Bush authorized PFIAB's plan for an alternative review. The review consisted of three panels: one to assess the threat posed by Soviet missile accuracy; another to determine the effect of Soviet air defenses on U.S. strategic bombers; and a third--the Strategic Objectives Panel--to determine the Soviet Union's intentions. The work of this last panel, which became known as the Team B Report, was the most controversial. As Paul Warnke, an official at the Arms Control and Disarmament Agency at the time of the Team B exercise, wrote: “Whatever might be said for evaluation of strategic capabilities by a group of outside experts, the impracticality of achieving useful results by ‘independent' analysis of strategic objectives should have been self-evident. Moreover, the futility of the Team B enterprise was assured by the selection of the panel's members. Rather than including a diversity of views ... the Strategic Objectives Panel was composed entirely of individuals who made careers of viewing the Soviet menace with alarm.” 4

<b>Team members included Richard Pipes (father of Daniel Pipes, director of the Middle East Forum) and William Van Cleave, both of whom would become members of the second Committee on the Present Danger, as well as Gen. Daniel Graham, whose "High Frontier" missile defense proposal foreshadowed President Reagan's Strategic Defense Initiative (SDI), or "Star Wars."</b> The team's advisory panel included Paul Wolfowitz, Paul Nitze, and Seymour Weiss--all close associates of Albert Wohlstetter. 5 Although Richard Perle played no direct role in Team B, he was instrumental in setting it up. It was Perle who had introduced Richard Pipes, a Polish immigrant who taught Czarist Russian history at Harvard, to Sen. Henry Jackson, catapulting Pipes into a clique of fanatically anti-Soviet hawks. Pipes, who served as Team B's chairman, later said he chose Wolfowitz as his principal Team B adviser "because Richard Perle recommended him so highly." 6


Committee on the Present Danger Follows Team B

The Team B Report, released as an “October surprise” in an attempt to derail Jimmy Carter's 1976 presidential bid, argued that “Soviet leaders are first and foremost offensively rather than defensively minded.” The team had arrived at this conclusion of Soviet intent from an assessment of the USSR 's capabilities, but they ignored evidence pointing to an opposite conclusion.....

......But as Anne Hessing Cahn establishes in her history of the Team B affair, some of the CIA estimates critiqued by Team B were themselves exaggerations, particularly the estimates of Soviet military spending. “With the advantage of hindsight,” she explains, “we now know that Soviet military spending increases began to slow down precisely as Team B was writing about an ‘intense military buildup in nuclear as well as conventional forces of all sorts, not moderated either by the West's self-imposed restraints or by the [Strategic Arms Limitation Treaty (SALT)]'.” “But even at the time of the affair,” continues Cahn, “Team B had at its disposal sufficient information to know that the Soviet Union was in severe decline. As Soviet defectors were telling us in anguished terms that the system was collapsing, Team B looked at the quantity but not the quality of missiles, tanks, and planes, at the quantity of Soviet men under arms, but not their morale, leadership, alcoholism, or training.” 8

The Team B report paved the way for the second Committee on the Present Danger, which formed weeks after Team B had released its findings. The committee's first major policy statement, titled What Is the Soviet Union Up To? was written by Team B leader Richard Pipes, who along with other participants in the Team B exercise--including Foy Kohler, Paul Nitze, and William Van Cleave--were founding members of the Committee on the Present Danger.


Team B as Model for Post-Cold War Intelligence

Right-wing ideologues and militarists frequently cite the example of Team B as a successful model for challenging moderate threat assessments by the foreign policy establishment, particularly the CIA and the State Department. In prevailing over the CIA, Team B demonstrated that “strategic intelligence” based on a policy-driven analysis of an adversary's perceived intentions could triumph over fact-based intelligence. Through adroit organizing by hawks inside and outside of government, the Team B effort helped re-launch the cold war.

The end of the cold war did not bring to a close the long-running dispute between the national security alarmists on the right and the more conservative analysis of security threats by the CIA, the State Department, and the military itself. <b>In the case of Iraq , the ideologues and militarists, following the Team B model, insisted on the primacy of strategic intelligence. Once again the U.S. government allowed a militarist policy by ideology and fear-mongering to trump facts and reason..</b>
Quote:

HAWK' OR REALIST?; REAGAN ADVISER PIPES INSISTS HE'S THE LATTER; [FIRST Edition]
Nina McCain Globe Staff. Boston Globe (pre-1997 Fulltext). Boston, Mass.: Jan 25, 1981. pg. 1

Richard Pipes arrived in America on his l7th birthday, July ll, l940. He and his father and mother had fled from the Nazi invasion of Poland.

One of his most vivid memories of his new country was seeing an advertisement with a quotation from Benjamin Franklin.

"It said something like, Unforeseen events need not change the course of men's lives.' I laughed. I had witnessed the outbreak of war in Poland, seen my house destroyed, been forced to leave home and migrate thousands of miles."

The chasm between American optimism and the Eastern European experience of the ravages of war has shaped Richard Pipes' view of the world and, for the next few years, Pipes will have a hand in shaping America's foreign policy. The Harvard professor will be the specialist on the Soviet Union for the Reagan Administration's National Security Council.

<h3>He is one of the leading figures in a group of intellectuals who are lumped together under the label "neoconservative,"</h3> many of whose members write for the combative Commentary magazine. Pipes shares with them a conviction that America has grown soft and sleepy about national defense and a determination to lead a reawakening.

Pipes says he and and like-minded members of the Committee on the Present Danger are "the same kind of people who, in l936 or l937, would have backed Churchill in England. (People who said* Germany is arming, preparing for war, and we are doing nothing."

Substitute the words "Soviet Union" for "Germany" and you have a rough notion of Pipes' approach to US-Soviet relations.

Pipes is the latest in a series of Soviet experts to serve in the highest councils in Washington. Like those who have preceded him, from Charles E. (Chip) Bohlen and George Kennan to Henry Kissinger, Zbigniew Brzezinski and Marshall Shulman, Pipes brings his own interpretation of US-Soviet relations to the job.

Although he shares a common Eastern European background with Kissinger andBrzezinski, Pipes is sharply critical of what he regards as their "ego trips," and of the doctrine of detente which Kissinger first espoused and more recently downplayed.

The problem with detente - the pursuit of arms limitation, trade agreements and a stabilized US-Soviet relationship - Pipes argues, is that the Russians aren't playing by the same rules. While American strategists talk about nuclear parity and deterrence, the Soviets are aiming for superiority and, ultimately, victory.

Often described as a "hardliner" or "hawk," Pipes prefers to think ofhimself as a realist.

"If you want to prevent nuclear war, or to contain the damage, you have to look at it realistically," Pipes said in an interview last week. "That does not mean I am in favor of nuclear war. You would have to be insane (to favor such a war) . . . I am a very pacific person. I don't even own a gun."

Pipes is particularly critical of the notion, which he says has been sold to Americans by a succession of political leaders of both parties, that nuclear war is "unthinkable" and "unimaginable."

"The idea that the explosion of one nuclear bomb means the end of mankind leads to paralysis," he says. "You have to look at it very coldly . . . If a physician is confronted with a terrible disease, he is not likely to cure it by tearing his hair out. You want a physician who is cool."

A tall, slender man whose dark hair is in retreat from a high forehead, Pipes personifies cool. Juggling an interview and a steady stream of phone calls from well-wishers, he managed to be gracious, pleased and unflustered.

Pipes is an expert on 19th century Russian who has spent 34 of his 57 years at Harvard, first as a graduate student and then as a professor. As he tells it, if the Harvard history department had been more flexible, he might not be on his way to Washington now.

After a couple of years at a small college in Ohio and three years in the Air Force, Pipes came to Harvard interested in the history of art and philosophy, which he wanted to combine somehow with the Russian studies he had begun at Cornell under Air Force auspices.....

.....He first caught the eye of Washington insiders in 1970 when he delivered a paper on US-Soviet relations to the American Historical Association. An aide to Sen. Henry Jackson (D-Wash.) liked the paper and Pipes became a consultant to Jackson's Permanent Committee on Investigations.

But it was not until l976 that he gained national attention when he headed the "B-team," a group of non-governmental experts brought in by President Ford's Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board to assess US estimates of Soviet strength. The experts looked at the same data used by the "A team," the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), and came to startlingly different conclusions.

The team's highly critical report charged that the CIA had consistently underestimated the nature and extent of the Soviet threat. It warned that the Soviets would soon be militarily superior to the US and could use that superiority to force US withdrawal from crucial areas like the Mideast.

Coming in the midst of the Nixon-Ford era of relatively good relations with the Soviet Union, the report struck at the very foundations of the Strategic Arms Limitations Talks (SALT) and created turmoil within the intelligence community.

Out of the "B team"came the Committee on the Present Danger (there was some membership overlap), and a widely-discussed article in Commentary in which Pipes set out his views on Soviet strategy.

In that article, entitled "Why the Soviet Union Thinks It Could Fight and Win a Nuclear War," he argued that Americans have been deluded into believing that the Soviets accept detente and have renounced nuclear war.

"The strategic doctrine adopted by the USSR over the past two decades," he wrote, "calls for a policy diametrically opposite to that adopted in the United States by the predominant community of civilian strategists: not deterrence but victory, not sufficiency in weapons but superiority, not retaliation but offensive action."

The Soviets, he wrote, used to sustaining enormous casualties in war (20 million in World War II) and with a much more widely dispersed population, do not share the American conviction that nuclear war is suicidal. Soviet leaders, Pipes claimed, regard nuclear war as not only thinkable but winnable.

"In the United States, the consensus of the educated and affluent holds all recourse to force to be the result of an an inability or an unwillingness to apply rational analysis and patient negotiation to disagreements: the use of force is prima facie evidence of failure."

In contrast, he wrote, "The Soviet ruling elite regards conflict and violence as natural regulators of all human affairs."

Pipes says he prefers the American view but thinks it "not always realistic."

He regards himself as a "very standard, traditional liberal" and a Democract who has been forced out of the party because it has shifted so far to the left....

.."In the first place, Harvard is nowhere near as liberal as people think," he says. "And, secondly, I have good friends who say, Your political views are crazy but you're a nice fellow.' "

In fact, a number of Pipes' colleagues and other Russian specialists regard his political views as not only crazy but dangerous.

"If he really believes all that stuff he writes," says one Soviet expert and government consultant who asked not to be named, "and if he's going to be pouring it into the ear of Ronald Reagan, who is not terribly well informed, it is going to make it even more difficult for this powerful nation to behave with restraint."....
Quote:

http://www.harvardmagazine.com/on-line/010540.html
Militant about "Islamism"
Daniel Pipes wages "hand-to-hand combat" with a "totalitarian ideology."

by Janet Tassel

"It's a mistake to blame Islam, a religion 14 centuries old, for the evil that should be ascribed to militant Islam, a totalitarian ideology less than a century old. Militant Islam is the problem, but moderate Islam is the solution."

~Daniel Pipes

Richard Pipes, Baird research professor of history, recounts in his recent book, Vixi, that when Daniel, his first child, was born in 1949, he felt as if he himself were being reborn. To mark the event he even quit smoking.

And, in a sense, with the birth of Daniel, Richard Pipes was indeed reborn, perhaps even cloned. Daniel '71, Ph.D. '78 (early Islamic history), is what old-timers would call a chip off the old block. Both are essentially loners, non-belongers (the subtitle of Vixi is Memoirs of a Non-Belonger), and fighters. Pipes the elder, the fiercely anti-communist cold-warrior, head of President Ford's Team B (formed to evaluate the CIA's estimates of Soviet nuclear intentions) and Soviet policy adviser to President Reagan, was cursed as a "wretched anti-Sovietist" by Pravda—and pretty well marginalized at Harvard for his politics.

In some ways Daniel, a specialist on Islam as an influence in history, is even more an outsider than his father. Founder and director of his own think tank, Middle East Forum (MEF), his current role in academe is gadfly. Though he taught world history from 1978 to 1982 at the University of Chicago, history at Harvard from 1983 to 1984, and policy strategy at the Naval War College from 1984 to 1986, he has parted ways with the academy—to the satisfaction of both, it seems. "I have the simple politics of a truck driver," he told an interviewer, "not the complex ones of an academic. My viewpoint is not congenial with institutions of higher learning." More congenial was his stint on the policy-planning staff at the State Department in 1983 and his seven years as director of a Philadelphia think tank called the Foreign Policy Research Institute, before starting Middle East Forum in 1994.

At Middle East Forum, he is publisher of Middle East Quarterly, which he says, "seeks out voices excluded from the scholarly debate, voices more aligned with the pro-American views of mainstream Americans." And he has initiated Campus Watch, a website and speakers' bureau that monitors Middle Eastern studies at North American universities—"a kind of Consumer Reports," he says, "for students, parents, alumni, and legislators" to air perceived biases and inaccuracies. This is yet another irritant to critics like Rashid Khalidi, Said professor of Arab studies and director of the Middle East Institute at Columbia University, who calls the Campus Watchers "intellectual thugs"; Juan Cole, professor of history at the University of Michigan, deems the project "cyberstalking." "Crude McCarthyism" and "totalitarianism" are among the less vitriolic terms used by other scholars to describe Campus Watch. In addition, Pipes is now in his final year as a director of the federally funded U.S. Institute of Peace....

....The Washington Post editorialized that the nomination was a "cruel joke," pointing out that the institute was supposed to be working on a special initiative to create a bridge between cultures, but "Mr. Pipes has long been regarded by Muslims as a destroyer of such bridges." The Arab American Institute, an activist policy organization headed by James Zogby, released a statement saying, in part, <h3>"For decades Daniel Pipes has displayed a bizarre obsession with all things Arab and Muslim.

Now, it appears that his years of hatred and bigotry have paid off with a presidential appointment. One shudders to think how he will abuse this position to tear at the fabric of our nation."</h3>....
Quote:

http://www.danielpipes.org/article/1040
Why the Left Loves Osama [and Saddam]

by Daniel Pipes
New York Post
March 19, 2003

* German version of this item

Has anyone noticed an indifference in the precincts of the far Left to the fatalities of 9/11 and the horrors of Saddam Hussein?

Right after the 9/11 attack, German composer Karlheinz Stockhausen called it "the greatest work of art for the whole cosmos." Eric Foner, an ornament of Columbia University's Marxist firmament, trivialized it by announcing himself unsure "which is more frightening: the horror that engulfed New York City or the apocalyptic rhetoric emanating daily from the White House." Norman Mailer called the suicide hijackers "brilliant."

More recently, it appears that none of the millions of antiwar demonstrators have a bad word to say about Saddam Hussein nor an iota of sympathy for those oppressed, tortured and murdered by his regime. Instead, they vent fury against the American president and British prime minister.

Why is the Left nonchalant about the outrages committed by al Qaeda and Baghdad?

Lee Harris, an Atlanta writer, offers an explanation in a recent issue of the Hoover Institution's journal, Policy Review. He does so by stepping way back and recalling Karl Marx's central thesis about the demise of capitalism resulting from an inevitable sequence of events:

* Business profits decline in the industrial countries
* Bosses squeeze their workers;
* Workers become impoverished;
* Workers rebel against their bosses, and
* Workers establish a socialist order.

Everything here hangs on workers growing poorer over time - which, of course, did not happen. In fact, Western workers became richer (and increasingly un-revolutionary). By the roaring 1950s, most of the Left realized that Marx got it wrong.

But rather than give up on cherished expectations of socialist revolution, Harris notes, Marxists tweaked their theory. Abandoning the workers of advanced industrial countries, they looked instead to the entire populations of poor countries to carry out the revolution. Class analysis went out the window, replaced by geography.

This new approach, known as "dependencia theory," holds that the First World (and the United States above all) profits by forcefully exploiting the Third Word. The Left theorizes that the United States oppresses poor countries; thus Noam Chomsky's formulation that America is a "leading terrorist state."

For vindication of this claim, Marxists impatiently await the Third World's rising up against the West. Sadly for them, the only true revolution since the 1950s was Iran's in 1978-79. It ended with militant Islam in power and the Left in hiding.

Then came 9/11, which Marxists interpreted as the Third World (finally!) striking back at its American oppressor. In the Left's imagination, Harris explains, this attack was nothing less than "world-historical in its significance: the dawn of a new revolutionary era."

Only a pedant would point out that the suicide hijackers hardly represented the wretched of the earth; and that their objectives had nothing at all to do with socialism and everything to do with - no, not again! - militant Islam.

So desperate is the Left for some sign of true socialism, it overlooks such pesky details. Instead, it warily admires al Qaeda, the Taliban and militant Islam in general for doing battle with the United States. The Left tries to overlook militant Islam's slightly un-socialist practices - such as its imposing religious law, excluding women from the workplace, banning the payment of interest, encouraging private property and persecuting atheists.

This admiring spirit explains the Left's nonchalant response to 9/11. Sure, it rued the loss of life, but not too much. Dario Fo, the Italian Marxist who won the 1997 Nobel Prize for literature, explains: "The great [Wall Street] speculators wallow in an economy that every year kills tens of millions of people with poverty, so what is 20,000 dead in New York?"

The same goes for Saddam Hussein, whose gruesome qualities matter less to the Left than the fact of his confronting and defying the United States. In its view, anyone who does that can't be too bad - never mind that he brutalizes his subjects and invades his neighbors. The Left takes to the streets to assure his survival, indifferent both to the fate of Iraqis and even to their own safety, clutching instead at the hope that this monster will somehow bring socialism closer.

In sum: 9/11 and the prospect of war against Saddam Hussein have exposed the Left's political self-delusion, intellectual bankruptcy and moral turpitude.
Quote:

http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/273
Daniel Pipes' Weblog
The Leftist-Islamist Alliance in Pictures

June 17, 2004

Take a look at the picture at left of Joelle Aubron, a French woman just released from prison for health reasons (a brain tumour) after serving seventeen years for her murderous activities in Action Directe, the extremist left-wing group.

Note anything odd about her headgear? It's a Palestinian-style keffiye. It may not be exactly what you'd expect a French woman to wear (in the Middle East, by the way, it's a purely male article of clothing), but her wearing it serves as a perfect symbol of the blossoming red-green alliance. Leftists and Islamists are both totalitarians and both hate Western civilization – so what does it matter that they differ on some niggling details, for example about women? For more on this alliance and its implications, a key topic, see my "The Left ♥ CAIR, MPAC, et al." and watch for David Horowitz' forthcoming Unholy Alliance: Radical Islam and the American Left, published by Regnery. (June 17, 2004)
Quote:

http://www.blogger.com/r?http%3A%2F%...s%2F000793.php
August 31, 2004
Daniel Pipes on Tariq Ramadan: Why French literacy still matters
by Scott Martens

Readers of my <a href="http://fistfulofeuros.net/archives/000782.php">previous comment</a> on Tariq Ramadan will no doubt have come away with the impression that I don’t much like Daniel Pipes. This is not an entirely accurate assessment of my opinon of him. I think Pipes is an unreconstructed bigot and xenophobic fanatic whose academic work fails to meet even the lowest standards of scholarship, whose career has been built on politically driven attacks, and who has set up with his “Campus Watch” as a terrorist front designed to intimidate academics and ensure that there is as little debate, discussion or rational thought on Israel, US foreign policy or Islam as possible. His reseach and scholarship are not intended to better inform action but to support specific agendas, usually revolving around hating some foreign force or people. Instead of fostering debate, his work is intended to intimidate. Pipes advocates religiously targetted surveillance, he supports making federal university funding conditional on ideology, and he has helped to terrorise professors who are named on his website. In short, I think Pipes is swine.

He is a second generation right-wing tool, the son of one of the men most responsible for America’s “Team B”, which grossly overblew the Soviet menace in the 70s and 80s - causing massive US defense spending and resulting deficits - and complained that anyone with a better sense of reality was soft on communism. Normally, Pipes’ parentage would constitute poor grounds for condeming him as having a pathological relationship to facts. But keep this in mind, since it constitutes one of his arguments against Ramadan.

All you need is Google to find out why I think these things about Daniel Pipes. It’s not a lot of work. His <a href="http://www.danielpipes.org/">own website</a> provides ample examples.

But, today, I will be targeting something a little more specific. Pipes has <a href="http://www.danielpipes.org/article/2043">put up on his website</a> his comment on Tariq Ramadan’s visa denial, originally published in the New York Post on Friday. In it, he makes specific points against Tariq Ramadan, linking, in some cases, to articles on the web in support. These articles are primarily in French. As a service to our non-francophone readers, we will be translating the relevant sections, since they lead one to the conclusion that Pipes assumes his readers will just take his word on their contents.

We report, you decide.

First, Pipes’ claims:......
Quote:

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles...le.asp?ID=9048
Dr. Daniel Pipes and CAIR's Lynch Mob
By Robert Spencer
FrontPageMagazine.com | July 23, 2003

As a Senate committee prepares to meet today to discuss the nomination of Dr. Pipes to the United States Institute of Peace (USIP), the Council of American Islamic Relations (CAIR) and its allies are working to turn the hearings into a lynching party of Borkian proportions.....
Quote:

http://baltimorechronicle.com/jul03_pipes-stalled.shtml
SENATORS GET IT RIGHT!
Daniel Pipes nomination stalled in committee
Special to the Chronicle

(WASHINGTON D.C., July 23, 2003) -- Members of the Senate committee charged with recommending Daniel Pipes to serve on the board of the US Institute for Peace (USIP) asked Chairman Judd Gregg (R-NH) for more time to gather more information on the "controversial nominee."

Senator Edward Kennedy (D-MA), in calling for more time, cited one of Pipes' statements--"Western European societies are unprepared for the massive immigration of brown-skinned peoples cooking strange foods and maintaining different standards of hygiene...All immigrants bring exotic customs and attitudes, but Muslim customs are more troublesome than most." (National Review, 11/19/90), Senator Kennedy ended by urging his colleagues to oppose Pipes' nomination.....

.....Senator John Ensign (R-NV) appeared to support Pipes' positions on American Muslims, citing Ronald Reagan's saying "peace through strength."

Following the hearing, Arab, Muslim and Interfaith Groups convened a press conference in the hallway. The moderator, Sarah Eltantawi, Communications Director of the Muslim Public Affairs Council, said "The American Muslim and Arab communities will remember who voted which way on Pipes for a long time to come. We are very pleased with the outcome of today's hearing, but the fight is not over."
Quote:

http://www.muslimsforbush.com/mission/mission10.html
DANIEL PIPES

UPDATE:

We here at Muslims For Bush would like to report that Daniel Pipes, himself, has gotten in touch with us, regarding the point we had originally written about below. In his email to us, which was very polite, Daniel Pipes did write that he had, in fact, been saying that "militant Islam is the problem, moderate Islam is the solution" well before his appointment to the United Sates Institute for Peace (USIP). We are very happy that Daniel Pipes has taken the time out to write to us and we feel that it is a very good demonstration of his efforts to build bridges of unity with Muslims in America and around the world. Daniel Pipes also left us with this link, showing his earlier statements - http://www.danielpipes.org/article/421 ...

.....While we strongly oppose the appointment of Daniel Pipes to the United States Institute for Peace (USIP), it should be noted that the behavior of Pipes changed drastically, shortly after being placed upon the board. Almost overnight, Daniel Pipes went from someone who highly alienated many Muslims with his strong criticisms, to a man whom self coined his signature phrase as, “militant Islam is the problem, moderate Islam is the solution.”xxv Despite our opposition to Pipes’ nomination, we are happy to see that President Bush has prevailed upon Pipes, regarding the importance of becoming tolerant and inclusive of all religious faiths, within our great country and around the world!

It should also be noted that, despite being close friends with Senator Kennedy, Senator Kerry did not join Kennedy in publicly condemning the nomination of Daniel Pipes, despite Kennedy’s calls for condemnation against Pipes.xxv

NCB 10-20-2006 04:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel
I was building off your thought process, which I believe is fundamentally flawed, and shooting back at you....and then you took it apart. It's a common liberal tactic, you see. We repeat back to you what you say, then you call it absurd.

:lol:

touche

Ustwo 10-24-2006 12:25 PM

Quote:

Indonesian officials say they will release at least two Islamic militants in jail for involvement in the 2002 terrorist bombings on the resort island of Bali, to mark the end of the Islamic fasting month of Ramadan.

As Indonesians prepare to celebrate the holiday, Eid al-Fitr, prison officials say they will release at least two Muslim militants on Tuesday, the day most people will celebrate the end of the holy month.

Jakarta traditionally reduces prison sentences on holidays for prisoners who show good conduct.
Another strong statement against terrorism from a 'moderate' Islamic state.

http://www.voanews.com/english/2006-10-23-voa23.cfm

dc_dux 10-24-2006 12:52 PM

I heard it on the news earlier.

The two prisoners were released a month early from the 5 year sentence they received for hiding one of the Bali bombers after the attack. The three bombers are in death row.

I can understand the anger of relatives of those killed in the Bali attack, but I am more impressed that the Indonesian government has stepped up there anti-terrorism effort, having "arrested and jailed more than 300 Muslim militants" since the attack.

Ustwo 10-24-2006 01:11 PM

Quote:


SANTA ANA, CA — Five Islamic militants were arrested May 5 for the beheading of three Indonesian schoolgirls in Poso, on the island of Sulawesi, in October 2005, according to Compass Direct. Two additional suspects have not yet been publicly identified, reported Compass.

Two of the arrested men were involved in the murders,” national police spokesman Brig. Gen. Anton Bachrul Alam told reporters. “Another was detained for carrying ammunition, while the other two were arrested as accessories to the crimes.”

The five suspects, arrested in Tolitoli regency, Central Sulawesi, were identified by The Jakarta Post as Apriyantono, alias Irwan; Arman, alias Haris; Asrudin, Nano and Abdul Muis. According to Compass, some Indonesians use only a single name.

According to officials, the men are suspected of attacking Theresia Morangke, 15; Alfita Poliwo, 17; Yarni Sambue, 15; and Noviana Malewa, 15 early in the morning as they walked to a Christian school in Poso district. The first three girls were beheaded; Malewa received serious injuries to her face and neck but survived the attack.
Yes, people like the above.

dc_dux 10-24-2006 01:20 PM

Here is a Wash Post article:
Quote:

Two Islamic militants jailed for the Bali bombings that killed 202 people were freed Tuesday, and nine others had their sentences reduced to mark the end of the Islamic fasting month.

Indonesia traditionally cuts prison terms for some inmates on national holidays, and the justice ministry said more than 43,000 convicts benefited this time.

But the decision to include convicted terrorists was likely to anger countries that lost citizens in the Oct. 12, 2002, suicide attacks on two crowded nightclubs.

"After what I've survived, to see these people get rewarded ... it's something we Westerners just don't understand," said Australian Peter Hughes, who suffered burns to 54 percent of his body.

"I hate to think what the families of the victims who died are going through."

Mujarod bin Salim and Sirojul Munir, who were convicted of hiding two of the bomb plotters, had up to 45 days shaved from their five-year sentences.

Bin Salim walked free from the main prison on Bali island on Tuesday afternoon, said Ilham Jaya, the prison warden, and Munir left the jail in East Kalimantan's capital of Balikpapan several hours earlier

"I'm happy that I'll be able to spend time with my family again," said Munir, adding he had nothing to do with the attacks.

Nine other militants convicted of relatively minor roles in the bombings also had 45 days cut from their sentences.

Indonesia has arrested hundreds of al-Qaida-linked militants in recent years and jailed 33 people in the 2002 bombings, the first in a series of attacks in Indonesia blamed on the Jemaah Islamiyah terror network.

The government says three militants on death row for the Bali attacks and three others sentenced to life are not eligible for the prison term reductions.

Munir admitted to letting Mubarok, an old classmate who is now serving life, stay in his home for several days in November 2002. He said he had no idea his friend was fleeing justice.

"As soon as I learned through the newspapers that he was involved in the Bali bombings, I asked him to leave and gave him a little money for transportation," Munir told The Associated Press by telephone.

"My mistake was not telling police he had been at my house."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...102400206.html
I dont deny that there are still serious problems in Indonesia with muslim extremists, but it seems you want to focus more on those problems that the serious efforts made by the Indonesian government to crackdown on Jemaah Islamiyah -- the more than 200 suspected JI-linked militants captured or killed and the country's 2003 anti-terrorism legislation that allows for detention without trial.

Progress is being made in Indonesia, particularly under the new government, but obviously not as quicky as anyone would hope and continued criticism likes yours is appropriate as long as you dont generalize about the vast majority of over 1 billion muslims there that are not perpetrating or supporting violence or terrorism.

Ustwo 10-24-2006 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dc_dux
I dont deny that there are still serious problems in Indonesia with muslim extremists, but it seems you want to focus more on those problems that the serious efforts made by the Indonesian government to crackdown on Jemaah Islamiyah -- the more than 200 suspected JI-linked militants captured or killed and the country's 2003 anti-terrorism legislation that allows for detention without trial.

Progress is being made in Indonesia, particularly under the new government, but obviously not as quicky as anyone would hope and continued criticism likes yours is appropriate as long as you dont generalize about the vast majority of over 1 billion muslims there that are not perpetrating or supporting violence or terrorism.

Yea I guess girls getting their heads cut off are kinda a put off, but I'm sure they are working on the issue.

Though I did find this sort of ironic...
and the country's 2003 anti-terrorism legislation that allows for detention without trial

dc_dux 10-24-2006 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo
Yea I guess girls getting their heads cut off are kinda a put off, but I'm sure they are working on the issue.

Though I did find this sort of ironic...
and the country's 2003 anti-terrorism legislation that allows for detention without trial

Yep...it is truly a shame that Indonesia cant solve their problems overnight, but I believe iin acknowledging the progress they are making, not mocking it.

I thought the "detention without trial" was ironic as well, but then again, Indonesia doesnt have 200+ years experience with Constitutional law.

Ustwo 10-24-2006 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dc_dux
Yep...it is truly a shame that Indonesia cant solve their problems overnight, but I believe iin acknowledging the progress they are making, not mocking it.

I thought the "detention without trial" was ironic as well, but then again, Indonesia doesnt have 200+ years experience with Constitutional law.

Ah I see, if they had 200 years of constitutional law such a measure wouldn't be needed to fight this terrorism. It gives some sort of magic shield vrs terrorists eh?

I hear if you drape yourself in the constitution you become bullet proof and terrorists see the error of their ways.

host 10-24-2006 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo
Another strong statement against terrorism from a 'moderate' Islamic state.

http://www.voanews.com/english/2006-10-23-voa23.cfm

You seem to have it "all figured out", Ustwo.... you perceive "clarity" coming from our government officials which apparently permits you to "discern" that the US government and it's leaders' efforts and pronouncements concerning the GWOT, are "Good"....are accurate....are reliable...you trust them to tell you who the "good guys" are, and who the "bad guys" are....and who the "good countries" are....and who the "not so good" countries are....the ones who are not totally "on board" the prosecution of the US defined GWOT and of the US defined "bad people".....

In an update to the following thread:
http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...38#post2142738

I provide information for "the rest of us", folks who see only politcally motivated propaganda intended mostly to terrorize and control the American electorate, and misleading....... and at times, contradictory bullshit from our government and our leaders....which they attempt to pass off on us "truth", as justification for what they do and say. If I were an Indonesian leader, I would not only be reluctant to cooperate in the GWOT with the US, I would distance my country from the US "effort".

I'm an American....because of what our leaders seem to want me to "know", I know less, each time they "release" new info on the "progress" in the GWOT, than I knew before:

Ustwo 10-25-2006 05:12 AM

Yes sorry host, I believe Bush, the senate, the house, my own eyes and and countless others over your analysis and the other conspiracy types.

Nimetic 10-25-2006 05:22 AM

Churchill? The most important? Why?

host 10-25-2006 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo
Yes sorry host, I believe Bush, the senate, the house, my own eyes and and countless others over your analysis and the other conspiracy types.

Please pick any of the following points and citations and explain how they relate to reality of conspiracy.....

In this post http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showpos...38&postcount=5

in the "al-Farquq escapes" thread, I provided news reports that indicate that an alleged "al-Qaeda's "top man" in Asia", Omar al-Faruq, was captured by Indonesian forces in 2002, swiftly turned over to the US, "rendered" to an undisclosed CIA prsion, then transferred to a US prsion in Bagram, Afghanisatan, where he escaped from a high security facility with "3 other prisoners". He was shot in Basra, Iraq, in Sept., 2006, and one of the other 3 Bagram escapees, turned up in OCtober, 2006, described as a "top al-Qaeda terrorist", calling publicly for terrorist attacks on "the White House".

I also documented that the president Bush declared in 2002 that there were nmerous "terrorist sleeper cells" to be tracked down in the US, the FBI director Mueller, in 2005, said that the lack of discovery of "sleeper cells" in the US was the thing that concerned him most.

New DCI "Czar". John Negroponte testified to a senate committee in Feb., 2006 about only one "sleeper cell"...in Lodi, CA....reported months later by PBS Frontline to be a harmless Pakistani immigrant ice cream truck driver, Mr. Hayat, and his equally harmless, but unwitting, son.....

A recent NIE disclosed an assessment that the US war in Iraq was actually strengthening the terrroist threat, instead of weakening it.

Mr. Bush appointed John Negroponte, with this as Negroponte's background:
Quote:

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB151/index.htm
THE NEGROPONTE FILE

NEGROPONTE'S CHRON FILE FROM TENURE IN HONDURAS POSTED

National Security Archive Electronic Briefing Book No. 151 - Part 1

Edited by Peter Kornbluh

April 12 , 2005

<a href="http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB151/index2.htm">[Go to Part 2]</a>

Close Relations with Honduran Military,
Contra "Special Project" Against Nicaraguan Sandinistas
Dominated Cable Traffic

Reporting on Human Rights Violations Nonexistent between 1982 and 1984

(President George W. Bush nominated John Negroponte as the first Director of National Intelligence on February 17, 2005.) (Source: White House)

Washington D.C., April 12, 2005 - As the Senate Intelligence Committee convenes to consider the nomination of John Negroponte to be Director of National Intelligence, the National Security Archive today posted hundreds of his cables written from the U.S. Embassy in Tegucigalpa between late 1981 and 1984. The majority of his "chron file"- cables and memos written during his tenure as Ambassador- was obtained by the Washington Post under the Freedom of Information Act. The documents were actually declassified at Negroponte's request in June 1998, after he had temporarily retired from the Foreign Service.

The 392 cables and memos record Negroponte's daily, and even hourly, activities as the powerful Ambassador to Honduras during the contra war in the early 1980s. They include dozens of cables in which the Ambassador sought to undermine regional peace efforts such as the Contadora initiative that ultimately won Costa Rican president Oscar Arias a Nobel Prize, as well as multiple reports of meetings and conversations with Honduran military officers who were instrumental in providing logistical support and infrastructure for CIA covert operations in support of the contras against Nicaragua -"our special project" as Negroponte refers to the contra war in the cable traffic. <b>Among the records are special back channel communications with then CIA director William Casey, including a recommendation to increase the number of arms being supplied to the leading contra force, the FDN in mid 1983, and advice on how to rewrite a Presidential finding on covert operations to overthrow the Sandinistas to make it more politically palatable to an increasingly uneasy U.S. Congress.

Conspicuously absent from the cable traffic, however, is reporting on human rights atrocities that were committed by the Honduran military and its secret police unit known as Battalion 316, between 1982 and 1984, under the military leadership of General Gustavo Alvarez, Negroponte's main liaison with the Honduran government. The Honduran human rights ombudsman later found that more than 50 people disappeared at the hands of the military during those years. But Negroponte's cables reflect no protest, or even discussion of these issues during his many meetings with General Alvarez, his deputies and Honduran President Robert Suazo. Nor do the released cables contain any reporting to Washington on the human rights abuses that were taking place.</b>

Today's posting by the National Security Archive includes the complete series of cables released under the Freedom of Information Act. The State Department released another several dozen cables from the series yesterday, and these are available in Part 2 of this posting.
Quote:

http://www.thenation.com/blogs/capitalgames?pid=2386
| Posted 05/06/2005 @ 11:50am
From Iran-contra to Iraq

<b>......James Steele was recently featured in a New York Times Magazine story as a top adviser to Iraq's "most fearsome counterinsurgency force,"
Quote:

http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0503/dailyUpdate.html
posted May 3, 2005, updated 12:56 p.m.

Adapting to shifting sands of battle in Iraq
US and Iraqi forces adjust to combat changing insurgent tactics.

....<a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/01/magazine/01ARMY.html?ei=5090&en=831a22b7e549a670&ex=1272686400&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss&pa">The New York Times reports</a> that Iraqi forces are adapting new ways to deal with insurgents. As the Times reports, former members of Saddam Hussein's security forces, originally dismissed by the US-led Coalition Provisional Authority shortly after Hussein's Baathist regime was toppled, are now being relied on more heavily than before. The Times profiles General Adnan, the Sunni leader of "Iraq's most fearsome counterinsurgency force," the 5,000-strong Special Police Commandos.

In a country of tough guys, Adnan Thabit may be the toughest of all. He was both a general and a death-row prisoner under Saddam Hussein. He favors leather jackets no matter the weather, his left index finger extends only to the knuckle (the rest was sliced off in combat) and he responds to requests from supplicants with grunts that mean 'yes' or 'no.' Occasionally, a humble aide approaches to spray perfume on his hands, which he wipes over his rugged face.

As part of his no-nonsense approach to combating the insurgency, Mr. Thabit played a key role in launching the popular Iraqi reality TV show 'Terrorism in the Grip of Justice,' which has "proved to be one of the most effective psychological operations of the war," according to the Times.

The insurgents, or suspected insurgents, on 'Terrorism in the Grip of Justice' come off as cowardly lowlifes who kill for money rather than patriotism or Allah. They tremble on camera, stumble over their words and look at the ground as they confess to everything from contract murders to sodomy......
an outfit called the Special Police Commandos that numbers about 5000 troops. The article, by Peter Maass, noted that Steele "honed his tactics leading a Special Forces mission in El Salvador during that country's brutal civil war in the 1980s."</b> And, as Maass reminded his readers, that civil war resulted in the deaths of 70,000 people, mostly civilians, and "[m]ost of the killing and torturing was done by the army and right-wing death squads affiliated with it." The army that did all that killing in El Salvador was supported by the United States and US military officials such as Steele, who was head of the US military assistance group in El Salvador for two years in the mid-1980s. (A 1993 UN truth commission, which examined 22,000 atrocities that occurred during the twelve-year civil war in El Salvador, attributed 85 percent of the abuses to the US-backed El Salvador military and its death-squad allies.)

Maass reported that the Special Forces advisers in El Salvador led by Steele "trained front-line battalions that were accused of significant human rights abuses." But he neglected to mention that Steele ran afoul of the Iran-contra investigators for not being honest about his role in the covert and illegal contra-support operation.

After the Iran-contra story broke in 1986, Steele was questioned by Iran-contra investigators, who had good reason to seek information from him. The secret contra-supply network managed by Oliver North had flown weapons and supplies to the contras out of Illopongo Air Base in El Salvador. Steele claimed that he had observed the North network in action but that he had never assisted it. The evidence didn't support this assertion. For one, North had given Steele a special coding device that allowed encrypted communications to be sent securely over telephone lines. Why did Steele need this device if he had nothing to do with the operation? And for a time Steele passed this device to Felix Rodriguez, one of North's key operatives in El Salvador. Furthermore, Congressional investigators discovered evidence indicating that aviation fuel given to El Salvador under a US military aid program that Steele supervised was illegally sold to the North network. (The Reagan administration refused to respond to congressional inquiries about this oil deal.) And according to the accounts of others, Steele had made sure that the North network's planes, used to ferry weapons to the contras, could come and go from Illopongo.......

....and of course, there is this:
Quote:

http://www.pantagraph.com/articles/2...ers/120246.txt
<B>Iraqi fundamentalists not our only enemy</B>


Individuals determined by the federal government to be involved in terrorist activities may be detained indefinitely without the right to know the charges against them, have legal representation or have a speedy trial. This means if the government suspects you or me of being involved with terrorist activities, we have no legal rights to prove we are innocent.

The government can eavesdrop on our calls without warrants and randomly open mail - that recently happened to a relative of mine. The government recently acquired from several phone companies' mass files on their customers' phone usage.

The government has determined that it does not need to follow the Geneva Conventions if it chooses to torture prisoners outside of U.S. soil. It has determined that certain torture, determined by them as appropriate, may be used.

These human rights to representation, privacy and freedom from torture have been taken away in the name of the ``War on Terrorism.''

The enemy to be feared is not just the Iraqi fundamentalists, but our own right-wing, Republican-controlled government, put in place in part by a strong Christian fundamentalist movement.

The three branches of government put into place as checks and balances are controlled by the same far right-wing Republican government.....
.....so, what is it that causes your complacency, your defense of Mr. Bush and his GWOT?

If you have one, I would be grateful to see it posted......


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