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-   -   Senate approves torture for terrorists (https://thetfp.com/tfp/tilted-politics/109007-senate-approves-torture-terrorists.html)

Ch'i 10-01-2006 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by _GOD_
Perhaps. It's also a feeding frenzy in which several people attack another (sometimes in BIG RED LETTERS) and declare themselves victorious when their target isn't interested in responding to each and every accusation.

Much of what you say is true, but in this statement I am curious. Ustwo clearly stated several times "I don't have the desire to respond to every liberal". He enacted a debate, then refused to read those points which conflicted with his. The debate was unbalanced to begin with.

Lady Sage 10-01-2006 12:36 PM

My turn. Our POW men and women arent treated as saints. I dont care if we torture POW we collect. It wont cost me a wink of sleep. Morals? Yes I have problems with torture as a moral standpoint. Yet I also have a problem knowing that our people are being subjected to unknown terrors.

Will is right. Psychology. We may get some things out of some people but many wont talk and would rather die.

Now...

After spending a good bit of time reading the roaring debate of the past few pages of posts I would like to provide a very broad statement.

People who live in glass houses should NOT throw rocks.

Anyone can review posting histories for a month or more and narrow it down to how long it is between our posts and from that put together how much time anyone of us spends on TFP vs. how much time we DO NOT spend posting here... I know, ive done it.

People should be careful what they claim.

This is NOT a threat this is a simple observation. I do not like it when people toot a horn they do not know how to play.

I feel people should be careful what and who they believe. There are some seriously heated feelings going on in this thread. All I am saying is simply this. Try not to get worked up about some things. They may not be what they seem. :)

Paq 10-01-2006 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Sage
*snip*
Now...

After spending a good bit of time reading the roaring debate of the past few pages of posts I would like to provide a very broad statement.

People who live in glass houses should NOT throw rocks.

Anyone can review posting histories for a month or more and narrow it down to how long it is between our posts and from that put together how much time anyone of us spends on TFP vs. how much time we DO NOT spend posting here... I know, ive done it.

People should be careful what they claim.

This is NOT a threat this is a simple observation. I do not like it when people toot a horn they do not know how to play.

I feel people should be careful what and who they believe. There are some seriously heated feelings going on in this thread. All I am saying is simply this. Try not to get worked up about some things. They may not be what they seem. :)


I feel like i missed something you were referring to in here. I don't wanna cal anyone out, just curious as to what sparked this comment. PM if you wish, or just post it.

Anyway, i do have a problem wtih the "eye for eye" mentality...namely, the world will soon be blind. I feel like we're heading that way now, actually

Elphaba 10-01-2006 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paq
I feel like i missed something you were referring to in here. I don't wanna cal anyone out, just curious as to what sparked this comment. PM if you wish, or just post it.

It is merely a guess on my part, but the following post has created a stir:
Quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ch'i
Ustwo has managed to skip over almost every post debunking his original argument. Either that, or he doesn't have a rebuttal. I take it you concede Ustwo?
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo
Didn't read them.

This might shock you but with a job like I have, I tend to focus on one responder at a time, I don't have the desire to respond to every liberal with too much time on their hands and by skipping the usual suspects who post multiple cut and paste articles or who can't figure out where the caps key is, I'm don't feel a need to respond. I'm not even sure what could have been 'debunked'.


Ch'i 10-01-2006 08:14 PM

I apologize for any self proclaimed victory I may have depicted; it was not my intention. Certain people should be held accountable for making an argument while refusing their antithesis'. I will be more patient tomorrow, but I am not sorry for pointing this out.

Willravel 10-01-2006 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by _God_
Perhaps. It's also a feeding frenzy in which several people attack another (sometimes in BIG RED LETTERS) and declare themselves victorious when their target isn't interested in responding to each and every accusation.

The big red letters wern't an attack. They made clear a repeatedly ignored point that is very much relevant to the thread topic. Ustwo has ignored that point through several threads, and it was clear to me that normal means of posting were not enough for him to understand the error in his logic. Torture is not a reliable source for information, therefore using torture to extract information is useless. That should be made clear, espically since it seems that torture is now going to be excused in our CIA secret prisons.

_God_, I am left to wonder: when are you going to post about the thread topic? Or will it just be threadjacks?

dksuddeth 10-01-2006 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo
I don't have to justify my opinion beyond what it is, which just so happens to be the same opinion as 65% of the US senators.

I'm not too sure that this is something I would claim, considering the bozos that have sat in the senate for the last 20 years, but that's just me.

roachboy 10-02-2006 07:16 AM

my my this thread certainly tanked, didn't it?
it's a shame because this is an important topic. i suppose that is among the points of a troll, really--to reduce questions political to lint personal, distract, divert, etc.

i have thought quite a bit about this one over the weekend.

i think there are several underlying reason why this thread generated such heat--the official sanctioning of torture, the rewriting of the geneva conventions, the granting of immunity from prosecution for war crimes of a cadre that would have you think that americans cannot commit war crimes a priori, the legitmation of military kangaroo courts, the validation of the bushleague legal black hole, the expansion of the notion of enemy to potentially include american citizens, the suspension of habeas corpus...the fact that congress bent over and approved this...the stacking of the courts with far right activists appointed in the name of thwarting "activism"---problems with the last two presidential elections that remain unresolved....

years of fiasco international and domestic...

it seems that public protest has gone away: it is almost like the masses of people who turned out in opposition to the iraq debacle around the coutry actually believed the administration would take note of them, would listen, as if they had been chumped by the illusion that cowboy george is a decent fellow--and when the war unfolded anyway, people were disappointed then depressed (myself among them)---and we went home.
and we stayed home.
they are still at home.
we are all still sitting at home.

all this within a system that allows for the exercize of political freedom one day every 2 years. after that pesky, mediated freedom business is out of the way, we the people are stuck with whatever the more powerfully organized and well-funded political machine manages to put into place. and there is no way to get rid of the results--no mechanism for a vote of no confidence, no way to bring down an administration no matter how incompetent of disengenuous they may be. the result of our charade of political freedom is two year blocks of impunity.

better still, we self-evidently are living through an extended transitional phase in the social and political organization of capitalism. this adds even more fine treats to the pile: a radically polarized class society in which there is no functional discourse of class conflict--this polarization effects education, it squanders lives and potentials---it is expressed in the development of a prison-industrial complex for management of the poor, increased violence, increased repression---it is predicated on economic injustice and even manages to generate a certain level of flinstone contempt for the notions of economic and social justice.
the reorganization of capitalism that has been unfolding over the past 20 years has created fundamental problems for the american system of social reproduction that have not been addressed and that cannot be addressed within the present ideological climate of nationalist fantasy and denial.

so it feels sometimes like we are crash test dummies in a small car heading at high speed toward a very big wall.

so people appear to be at the least worried and at the worse afraid.
so we watch tv

conservative ideology traffics in fear, directing it toward the illusion of manly men doing manly things as if the idiocy behind this was not only other than a problem, but a source of reassurance.
we watch this on tv.

and there is no coherent oppositional politics, fantasies of the right notwithstanding.
we learn this on television.



so we express our discontent in spaces that are available like this.
but we all know that what we say in spaces like this is mostly therapeutic.
a little playground in which we all get to try out rationalizations that enable us to get out of bed in the morning.
a pseudo-public sphere of pseudo-public debate.

within the exercize in sublimation that participation in such pseudo-public debates in a pseudo-public sphere, the bigger picture repeats itself.
the confusion comes in the assumption that these repetitions are meaningful.
they are meaningful in a therapeutic sense, but not in a political sense.

this brings me back to this thread:

i am not surprised or shocked or even particularly disturbed by how this has gone.
i saw nothing surprising in ustwo's selective reading strategies--i would even applaud his frankness--but nothing in it was surprising, was it?

thing is that while ustwo's refusal to take seriously positions directed against his extreme right politics resembles aspects of the bigger picture, it is not that bigger picture.
and freezing him out of the board does not change that bigger picture.
he is just a guy.
a person like the rest of us who has to work out ways to manage, to rationalise what is happening around him, who has to work out systems of thinking that enable him to get out of bed in the morning and act as though his life is meaningful-----just as the rest of us are.

this is not the bigger picture.
the bigger picture is overwhelming.
if you add up the elements of it and really think about what they mean, it can be paralyzing.
powerlessness is not good.
denial is a coping mechanism.
dissent is a coping mechanism.
between them are siginificant differences in types of information processed, logic and the willingness to spell out that logic.
but in a pseudo-public sphere, the line between political argument and coping mechanism is thin indeed.

let's try to remember that.

i would prefer better debates.
i would also prefer to operate without illusions.

back to the question of torture on the way out: the united states has practiced torture as a matter of routine policy for at least 50 years. the united states has trained generations of torturers at lovely institutions like the school of the americas. the united states has sanctioned torture in other places: the united states endorsed pinochet, the united states endorsed the argentine military regime, the united states supported the shah of iran--on and on and on.

have you seen "dogville"?
von trier is right.

Ch'i 10-02-2006 04:50 PM

Great point.

tecoyah 10-03-2006 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by _God_

The concept of "fair and balanced," is missing here, unless you're using Al Franken's version.


Please...then TEACH Me....

tecoyah 10-05-2006 04:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

_God_, I am left to wonder: when are you going to post about the thread topic? Or will it just be threadjacks?

God has a history of poorly defined points, Attack , and aggressive reaction...expect it to become worse before it gets better as hes still in the Old Testament mindset.

Paq 10-05-2006 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tecoyah
God has a history of poorly defined points, Attack , and aggressive reaction...expect it to become worse before it gets better as hes still in the Old Testament mindset.

that is about the funniest thing i've read in a long
long
long
time

samcol 10-19-2006 04:08 PM

Was this bill properly ratified? If my understanding is correct this bill should of been pocket vetoed. Congress passed it on the 28th of September, adjourned the 29th, and Bush signed on the 17th of October. This makes over 10 working days of no action while congress was adjourned which is a veto by default.

:confused:

dc_dux 10-19-2006 07:56 PM

Congress is actually on a recess. Adjournment most commonly refers to "Adjournment Sine Die" which happens at the end of each two-year session of Congress.

The current 109th Congress will likely return after the election (particularly if the Repubs lose the House and want one last chance to try to push their legislative agenda before they become the minority) and adjourn sometime in December.

skier 10-19-2006 08:34 PM

While I am not an American, I have been watching American politics with inscreasing fascination for years. I watched global outrage for the war in iraq, which many called illegal, and still do. I watched american citizens allow numerous encroachments on their freedoms; and the only true resistance to this gradual erosion i saw was the patriot act, which was pushed through anyways. Now an essential cornerstone of personal liberty has simply been removed- habeus corpus.

Don't you guys care, as citizens of a free and democratic country, that at any time, for any reason, a government offical could simply take you away to prison and leave you there to rot for the rest of your life? That they can also torture you if they feel like it? That they can take you to court, and prosecute you using classified evidence that you're not allowed to see? At this moment, It is not out of their bounds to sentence you to death for reasons they see fit to proscribe.

I find this extremely disturbing, and it makes me glad that I live in Canada, at least for the moment. I don't understand why there haven't been protests in the streets; or any sign of dissatisfaction at all. Is all that you can do is watch and mourn it's loss?

edit- found a video of Keith Olbermann saying it very eloquently.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIe2fPmGFYw

Ch'i 10-19-2006 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skier
Don't you guys care, as citizens of a free and democratic country, that at any time, for any reason, a government offical could simply take you away to prison and leave you there to rot for the rest of your life? That they can also torture you if they feel like it? That they can take you to court, and prosecute you using classified evidence that you're not allowed to see? At this moment, It is not out of their bounds to sentence you to death for reasons they see fit to proscribe.

I find this extremely disturbing, and it makes me glad that I live in Canada, at least for the moment. I don't understand why there haven't been protests in the streets; or any sign of dissatisfaction at all. Is all that you can do is watch and mourn it's loss?

There are plenty of us who care, and actively try to resist such erosion. We are not the majority, unfortunately. The republican's future in the 2008 election looks grim, however. Two years is a long time to wait.

I suggest you direct this question towards the rightwingers. That should give you your answer...

...specifically Ustwo, he supports torture.

tecoyah 10-21-2006 04:18 AM

When I was younger, I knew I lived in the best country the world had to offer. I felt great joy in my luck for being born here, and pride in the accomplishments of my elders. I looked at all the wonderful things around me, and understood how extremely fortunate I was in comparison to virtually anyone outside the United States, in terms of freedoms and material comforts.
This has changed, as I think of my own children growing up. I am virtually powerless to halt the revisions taking place right now. I can only vote my conscience and hope for the best, knowing deep inside these hopes are impotent in the face of fear and hatred surrounding them. Over the last five years I have looked to the future with a mixture of dispair and frustration, as this country I truly love becomes something I do not like.
One is forced in this climate to look at a larger picture, and in some ways compromise principles in hopes of stopping some measure of the degradation so obvious , and painful. I have never been a Democrat, and in fact spent the majority of my life as a Republican, Even up to the first incarnation of a Bush Presidency....I can no longer support what that party represents, as it seems to be Killing the American Spirit I grew up with.

I only Pray I am not forced to vote for Hillary....But I cant see her damaging our counrty in the way Bush has.

/End Rant

pig 10-21-2006 06:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tecoyah
I have never been a Democrat,...I can no longer support what that party represents, as it seems to be Killing the American Spirit I grew up with.

I only Pray I am not forced to vote for Hillary....But I cant see her damaging our counrty in the way Bush has.

tec, i'm right on board with you. i've pretty much voted 3rd party since i've had the right to vote, but i might have to (icky icky foo) think about voting with the Republican-lights this time around. Not that it will mean jack shit down here in the Glorious South, but this shit has got to go.



End Dogpile

Ace_O_Spades 10-24-2006 10:22 AM

http://angryflower.com/takkid.gif

I love how bob the angry flower always manages to state exactly how I feel

NCB 10-24-2006 10:26 AM

I love how tough interegation tactics have been hijacked and are now considered torture. It breaks my heart that this country has become so pussified

Willravel 10-24-2006 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NCB
I love how tough interegation tactics have been hijacked and are now considered torture. It breaks my heart that this country has become so pussified

I'm curious how you can think that waterboarding isn't torture. Have you ever been waterboarded?

ratbastid 10-24-2006 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NCB
I love how tough interegation tactics have been hijacked and are now considered torture. It breaks my heart that this country has become so pussified

Yeah, dude, you're so tough, you'd probably go a whole ninety seconds on a waterboard before making up some bullshit to confess to. That's twenty seconds longer than average, you big tough Amurcan, you.

NCB 10-24-2006 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel
I'm curious how you can think that waterboarding isn't torture. Have you ever been waterboarded?

Waterboarding is more of a psych technique then a physical one. I have no problems with it

hiredgun 10-24-2006 10:35 AM

NCB: The US has considered waterboarding to be torture in the past. The rules allowing it are what's new here, not the condemnation of the tactic.

Also, I should warn you that talking about "pussification" makes you come off as pretty immature.

Edit: I was way too late.

NCB 10-24-2006 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hiredgun
NCB: The US has considered waterboarding to be torture in the past. The rules allowing it are what's new here, not the condemnation of the tactic.

What dont you like about the technique?

Quote:

Also, I should warn you that talking about "pussification" makes you come off as pretty immature..
As oppossed to post #122? I'll take my chances I reckon' :)

hiredgun 10-24-2006 10:53 AM

Well, here's a description:

Quote:

The physical effects of poorly executed waterboarding can be extreme pain and damage to the lungs, brain damage caused by oxygen deprivation and sometimes broken bones because of the restraints applied to the struggling victim. The psychological effects can be longlasting.

Dr. Allen Keller, the director of the Bellevue/N.Y.U. Program for Survivors of Torture, has treated "a number of people" who had been subjected to forms of near-asphyxiation, including waterboarding. An interview for The New Yorker states:

[Dr. Keller] argued that it was indeed torture. Some victims were still traumatized years later, he said. One patient couldn't take showers, and panicked when it rained. "The fear of being killed is a terrifying experience," he said.
( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding )

I don't think we should be inflicting physical or psychological trauma if we can help it. I think legalizing and routinizing it is certainly a misstep. I do think it might be possible to make a coherent case for the technique, but a priori dismissal of any dissent as "pussified" is basically meaningless.

Willravel 10-24-2006 10:55 AM

Wikipedia forgot about death as being a possible physical effect of waterboarding.

Paq 10-24-2006 11:13 AM

'accidental' death

yep...great stuff.

I'm so proud of my country lately. This combined with the suspension of habeas corpus...just nothin but good stuff lately.

pig 11-05-2006 10:28 AM

Just saw this elsewhere...looks like the legal battle is cranking up over the military trial courts and denial of legal council.

The first rule of Rendition Club is - you do not talk about Rendition Club. The second rule of Rendition Club - you do not talk about Rendition Club. The third rule of Rendition Club - you do not talk about Rendition Club. link.

Xell101 11-06-2006 10:19 PM

When it'll work you can count on it being done regardless of legal status. That they're legislating this seems like baby steps to the tune of 'You can trust me, we're taking the legal route.' Besides, it's pretty well established torture is unreliable. Also, given what we do do, saying torture so much rather cheapens the term.

pai mei 03-20-2007 02:35 AM

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4...36913&hl=en

Search at 1hour and 29 minutes in the movie above. You will see how the confessions of Khalid Mohammed were obtained :
"Whatever we need to do to get the truth out"
"Block his breathing with an artificial respiration machine"
Also there is the mental torture : torturing his children in front of him or just threaten him that his children will be tortured.

Willravel 03-20-2007 10:58 AM

Precisely correct, pai mei. And it's reasonable to deduce that, since his testimony was derived from torture, and we've already established that torture is not by any means a reliable source of information, that his testimony is meaningless.

Rekna 03-20-2007 01:05 PM

While I have no doubt that this man has done many evil things I also have to say I do not believe everything that he has confessed to. I think he is trying to make himself look bigger than he really was. One thing that should be considered is that if he were being tried in US civilian courts the judge would probably throw out the entire case and all of this would be inadmissible.

roachboy 03-20-2007 02:10 PM

you would have thought that the experience of the inquisition would have been enough on its own to dissuade folk from using torture to extract "confessions"---the meaning of which is generally "stop what you are doing to me...no, really. stop it. stop it now. here's what you want me to say..."
you would have thought that the debacle the french experienced and in some ways are still experiencing in algeria would have been enough...
you would have thought that any number of instances of this circular relation between torture and "information" gathered would have ruled out its use.
but then again, you also would have thought that basic ethics would have had the same effect.
apparently, any relation to the past as it might bear on the present, and any relation to ethics as they might limit actions are all out the fucking window when a neo-fascist regime understands that heimat to be threatened by a Contaminant....

dc_dux 03-20-2007 02:20 PM

On the positive side, there are bills in the new House and Senate to restore the rule of law - "No reason why we can’t fight the War on Terror and live up to our obligations under US law and the Geneva Conventions"
Both the “Restoring the Constitution Act” and the “Habeas Corpus Restoration Act” will bring credibility to the process of detaining terrorist suspects by placing it within a legal framework. This includes: restoring habeas corpus, narrowing the definition of “unlawful enemy combatant” as defined in the Military Commissions Act, prohibiting evidence obtained under coercion, and affirming the Geneva Conventions....

"We had an opportunity to show the world that the United States could fight those who would do us harm and protect our core values. That we could be both strong and just."

http://www.house.gov/apps/list/press...n/March_8.html

pig 03-20-2007 06:23 PM

yeah roach,

but that presupposes, even if its devil's advocate style for the sake of argument, that the primary function of current torture techniques is to gain information. i have to assume that the military shrinks are as competent as any, on average; therefore i have to deduce that they are not, in fact, after information. i can only surmise that they seek to humiliate and instill fear into our adversaries. perhaps develop scapegoats for the public eye whilst our military covertly operates on other premises and angles. i can not believe that the people who are actually working the various policies being enacted actually think this bullshit works. i don't like it, but i do think that its as much "hey - we're as badass and coldhearted as you fuckers are. our citizens may live nice little kotex padded lives, but our guardians are real fuckers." as anything else.

even that i could deal with on a certain level, as it would open the door for useful discussion and debate that is based in reality. the fantasy debates are just tedious.

host 06-12-2008 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...09-28-19-09-50


While I can hear the clicking figers of typed outrage from here, we can now put to rest the whole 'does the president have the power' or 'do terrorists have rights under the constition' argument.

I of course have long advocated the use of torture for terrorists, being that you can't expect people willing to turn themselves into human bombs for the gift of magic virgins from their invisible friend in the sky to give information willingly and it will save innocent lives. Being US methods are not maiming and more along the lines of discomfort I don't shed any tears or feel we left some mythical high road in light of how our enemies treat prisoners.

This is a needed tool in the war on terror, I'm just surprised so many democrats signed on but I'm willing to be that every one of them is up for re-election this year or thinking of running for the presidency in 2008.

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy
one of the few things emanating from a republican that i agree with on this latest travesty the bush administration has foisted upon us:

Quote:

Specter said hearings before his Judiciary Committee showed that the military Combatant Status Review Tribunals do not have an adequate way of determining whether suspects are enemy combatants.

He charged that by striking habeas corpus rights for terrorism suspects, the bill "would take our civilized society back some 900 years" to a time before the Magna Carta was adopted. He said this was "unthinkable."

"What this entire controversy boils down to is whether Congress is going to legislate to deny a constitutional right which is explicit in the document of the Constitution itself and which has been applied to aliens by the Supreme Court of the United States," Specter said. If the bill passes without habeas corpus protections, it will be struck down by the high court, and "we'll be on this floor again rewriting the law," Specter predicted.
source: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2800824_2.html

Quote:

Originally Posted by host
Has it been mentioned that two of the "heroes", John McCain and Arlen Specter, "stood up to the pretzeldent",
and then voted for this fascist abortion of the consititution, anyway....as did that "stalwart" democrat, Jay Rockefeller?
Quote:

http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/001637.php
Court Challenge to New Detainee Law May Come In "Days"
By Justin Rood - September 29, 2006, 1:02 PM

With President Bush poised to sign the White House-backed detainee treatment bill into law, groups are promising to challenge it in court "in days."

“I don’t think there’s a snowball’s chance in ‘H’ that this will be found constitutional,” Michael Ratner, president of the Center for Constitutional Rights, told "Congressional Quarterly" (sub. req.). CCR represents a number of Guantanamo prisoners.

Strangely, some senators who voted for the bill weren't convinced of its constitutionality. Sen. Arlen Specter (R-PA), who voted for the bill even after his amendment to preserve certain rights for detainees was defeated, called the proposal "patently unconstitutional on its face," The Washington Post <a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/28/AR2006092800824.html">reported</a>. When CQ asked Sen. John McCain (R-AZ), who negotiated with the White House to win minor concessions on the legislation, if the bill was constitutional, he responded "I think so."
How many of our troops suffered avoidable deaths in Iraq and in Afghanistan?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...092900368.html

This....this seems so....so.... "American" !:
Quote:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...l?hpid=topnews
Detainees Now Have Access to Federal Court

By Josh White and Del Quentin Wilber
Washington Post Staff Writers
Friday, June 13, 2008; Page A04

Defense attorneys for the 270 detainees at Guantanamo Bay said the Supreme Court decision yesterday that granted detainees habeas corpus rights was a watershed moment that will allow the men, some held for as long as 6 1/2 years, to challenge their detentions before a civilian judge.

....The court's ruling immediately gives the detainees access to a federal court in Washington, where lawyers will seek to have judges order the men released from indefinite detention. Legal experts said it is unclear how the hearings will proceed, but the government could be compelled to present highly classified evidence, and detainees could for the first time be able to publicly call witnesses, present evidence of abuse and rebut terrorism allegations.
ad_icon

The decision could force the U.S. government to show why individual detainees must be held, something U.S. officials have fought for years. As many as 130 detainees have been deemed dangerous but are unlikely to ever face criminal charges, according to prosecutors, and now government officials could have to argue for indefinite detention even if the evidence is flimsy or nonexistent.

"We're going to see a high number of people the government is going to have to release," said Michael Ratner, president of the Center for Constitutional Rights, which has represented Guantanamo Bay detainees since 2002....
My country, 'tis of thee,
Sweet land of liberty,
Of thee I sing;
Land where my fathers died,
Land of the pilgrims' pride,
From every mountainside
Let freedom ring!


SCOTUS Majority Opinion, Issued June 12, 2008:
Quote:

The Framers' inherent distrust of government power was the driving force behind the constitutional plan that allocated powers among three independent branches. This design serves not only to make Government accountable but also to secure individual liberty. . . .

Where a person is detained by executive order rather than, say, after being tried and convicted in a court, the need for collateral review is most pressing. . . . The habeas court must have sufficient authority to conduct a meaningful review of both the cause of detention and the Executive's power to detain. . . .

Security depends upon a sophisticated intelligence apparatus and the ability of our Armed Forces to act and interdict. There are further considerations, however. Security subsists, too, in fidelity to freedom's first principles. Chief among these are freedom from arbitrary and unlawful restraint and the personal liberty that is secured by adherence to separation of powers. . . .

The laws and Constitution are designed to survive, and remain in force, in extraordinary times. Liberty and security can be reconciled; and in our system, they are reconciled within the framework of law. The Framers decided that habeas corpus, a right of first importance, must be a part of that framework, part of that law.

roachboy 06-13-2008 03:49 AM

finally.
something good happened to put a term on this "kafkaesque nightmare" (i know i just saw this phrase somewhere...) that the bush people had put into motion, the war on due process which they called the "war on terror"


Quote:

Supreme court ruling on right to trial puts Guantánamo future in doubt

· Prisoners can take cases to civilian courts, justices say
· Historic decision is blow to Bush policy

* Ewen MacAskill in Washington
* The Guardian,
* Friday June 13 2008


The future of the infamous Guantánamo detention centre was thrown into doubt yesterday after the US supreme court delivered the most serious blow yet to President George Bush's policy of holding prisoners indefinitely without trial.

The justices, in a historic ruling, said the 270 prisoners, held for more than six years for alleged links with al-Qaida and the Taliban, have a constitutional right to take their cases to civilian courts on the US mainland.

Lawyers for the prisoners yesterday hailed the ruling as a vindication of their battle to have Guantánamo, in Cuba, closed.

Travelling in Rome, Bush said he did not agree with the ruling. "We'll abide by the court's decision. That doesn't mean I have to agree with it," he said.

The nine-member supreme court normally has a rightwing bent but Justice Anthony Kennedy, a maverick conservative who holds the balance of power, joined his more liberal colleagues to provide a 5-4 majority.

"The laws and constitution are designed to survive, and remain in force, in extraordinary times," Kennedy said.

At present the prisoners are classed as enemy combatants and face trial in military commissions set up by the Bush administration.

Their lawyers are expected to lodge habeas corpus petitions with federal courts as a matter of urgency, demanding their release.

Scores of cases related to the prisoners have been on hold in the federal courts pending the ruling. Federal judges, thrown into consternation by the ruling, met yesterday to decide how to proceed.

It is the third time that the supreme court has ruled against Bush on Guantánamo. On the previous two occasions, the administration and the Republican-controlled Congress changed the law to strip the detainees of their right to habeas corpus.

Bush cannot go to Congress this time because it is now controlled by the Democrats, who favour closing the camp.

The definitive nature of the ruling will make it harder for the Bush administration to manoeuvre round.

One option, though it would create an outcry, would be to close the camp and transfer the prisoners to another country, such as Afghanistan.

In the split decision, Chief Justice John Roberts, a conservative, sided with the dissenters. He described the existing set-up at Guantánamo as "the most generous set of procedural protections ever afforded aliens detained by this country as enemy combatants".

Justices Samuel Alito, Antonin Scalia and Clarence Thomas also dissented. Scalia said the nation is "at war with radical Islamists" and that the court's decision "will make the war harder on us. It will almost certainly cause more Americans to be killed."

Justices Stephen Breyer, Ruth Bader Ginsburg, David Souter and John Paul Stevens joined Kennedy to form the majority.

Souter wrote a separate opinion in which he emphasised the length of the detentions.

"A second fact insufficiently appreciated by the dissents is the length of the disputed imprisonments, some of the prisoners represented here today having been locked up for six years," he said.

Reflecting the chaos created by the ruling, a lawyer for Salim Ahmed Hamdan, Osama bin Laden's one-time driver, said he will seek dismissal of the charges against Hamdan. A military judge had already delayed the military trial's start at Guantánamo to await the supreme court ruling.

Navy Commander Jeffrey Gordon, a Pentagon spokesman, said he had no immediate information whether a hearing at Guantánamo for Omar Khadr, a Canadian charged with killing a US special forces soldier in Afghanistan, would go forward next week as planned.

Vince Warren, executive director of the New York-based Centre for Constitutional Rights, which represents more detainees than any other group of lawyers, said he hoped the Bush administration would not react by transferring the detainees to "a black hole" in another country, such as Bagram airbase in Afghanistan.

Clive Stafford Smith, director of the London-based Reprieve, which represents 35 prisoners, said the ruling was "catastrophic" for Bush's "secret prisons policy". He added: "But the prisoners still have a long way to go."

Amnesty International wrote to the prime minister, Gordon Brown, yesterday urging him to raise with Bush on his visit to London next week the issue of three prisoners with British links.

The three prisoners are: Binyam Mohamed, an Ethiopian formerly resident in London; Shaker Aamer, a Saudi national formerly resident in London; and Ahmed Belbacha, an Algerian who lived in Bournemouth.

Both the presidential candidates, the Democrat Barack Obama and the Republican John McCain, have said they would close Guantánamo on taking over the White House.

McCain reiterated that pledge yesterday: "I was in favour of closing Guantánamo Bay and I am still in favour of that," he said.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008...amo.georgebush

this ruling made me happier than the celtics did last night.
it is an indication of the extent to which the climate of hysteria the right relied upon to rationalize its policies has crumbled.
the fact of it is a reminder of how dangerous such hysteria really is.

mixedmedia 06-13-2008 04:08 AM


ratbastid 06-13-2008 04:41 AM

Amazing. Even Bush's personally-installed puppet court is giving him a low approval rating.

Cynthetiq 06-13-2008 05:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy
finally.
something good happened to put a term on this "kafkaesque nightmare" (i know i just saw this phrase somewhere...) that the bush people had put into motion, the war on due process which they called the "war on terror"




http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008...amo.georgebush

this ruling made me happier than the celtics did last night.
it is an indication of the extent to which the climate of hysteria the right relied upon to rationalize its policies has crumbled.
the fact of it is a reminder of how dangerous such hysteria really is.

I think this is a good reason why checks and balances exist. It also paves the way for future changes as precedents get set.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratbastid
Amazing. Even Bush's personally-installed puppet court is giving him a low approval rating.

what's his personally installed puppet court?

The_Jazz 06-13-2008 05:11 AM

Yeah, Bush hasn't even nominated a quorum. He's put 2 judges on SCOTUS, Roberts and Alito.

ratbastid 06-13-2008 05:55 AM

Criminy. I meant it as a sort of ironic joke. It may not have been funny, I admit, but y'all need to lighten up.

Cynthetiq 06-13-2008 05:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratbastid
Criminy. I meant it as a sort of ironic joke. It may not have been funny, I admit, but y'all need to lighten up.

damn that Alanis Morrisette... I haven't the foggiest idea of what people mean when they say Ironic anymore

roachboy 06-13-2008 05:58 AM

well, i stand by the claim that the problem was the climate of hysteria generated by the idiot response to 9/11/2001 and maintained for political purposes through 2005 at the least. you can still see the traces of the division between those who think within that frame and those who dont in the distance separating scalia's minority opinion from the majority opinion.


to take this a step further: i see nothing automatic in the american system of checks--i see this decision as a reflection of the dissolution of the environment they worked to maintain. collective hysteria remains a huge and frightening possibility, a permanent problem. and the contemporary ideological apparatus--which we call "the media"--makes such hysteria a constant possibility.

ratbastid 06-13-2008 06:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq
damn that Alanis Morrisette... I haven't the foggiest idea of what people mean when they say Ironic anymore

And that grabbed your attention so completely that you missed the part about lightening up...

Cynthetiq 06-13-2008 07:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratbastid
And that grabbed your attention so completely that you missed the part about lightening up...

I did :) it's what made me think of the song

dksuddeth 06-13-2008 08:05 AM

having read only part of scalia and roberts dissent, i'm hugely dissapointed that somebody who calls themselves strict constructionists and originalists feel that safety overrides freedom. totally disgusted with the 4 dissenters right now.

host 06-13-2008 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy
well, i stand by the claim that the problem was the climate of hysteria generated by the idiot response to 9/11/2001 and maintained for political purposes through 2005 at the least. you can still see the traces of the division between those who think within that frame and those who dont in the distance separating scalia's minority opinion from the majority opinion.


to take this a step further: i see nothing automatic in the american system of checks--i see this decision as a reflection of the dissolution of the environment they worked to maintain. collective hysteria remains a huge and frightening possibility, a permanent problem. and the contemporary ideological apparatus--which we call "the media"--makes such hysteria a constant possibility.

rb....it is interesting that in the UK, "conservatives", actually are...conservative, and they recognize that the tactics of those who claim to be "conservatives" in the US are actually those of scare mongering, power grabbing propagandists:

Former British PM, John Major, is objecting to a revision in law that would extend imprisonment without charges or a hearing before a magistrate from the current 28 days max., to 42 days. In the US, prisoners have been held for as long as 6-1/2 years, under these same circumstances...no hearing, no charges, and four SCOTUS justices appointed by "conservative" US presidents, and the current president himself, view it as just and AMERICAN...
it's not....it is a failure of the president to honor his oath to "uphold and defend the Consitution", and of these four judges, as well.....
Quote:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/com...cle4075503.ece
June 6, 2008
42-day detention: the threat to our liberty
The Government's plan is simply part of an assault on our ancient rights
John Major

The Government's legislation to permit 42 days pre-charge detention brings to the fore the wider question of civil liberties. In their response to the security threat ministers have dragged us ever closer to a society in which ancient rights are seriously damaged. I doubt this is the Government's intention, but it is the effect. It began with Iraq.

The invasion of Iraq was justified by overegging the threat of Saddam Hussein's non-existent weapons of mass destruction - perhaps that error was genuine.

But the case for war was embellished by linking the Iraqi regime to the 9/11 attacks on New York - for which there is not one shred of evidence. As we moved towards war, that misinformation was compounded by the implication that Saddam's Iraq was a clear and present danger to the United Kingdom, which plainly it was not.

These actions damaged our reputation overseas. And, at home - on the back of the threat of terror and two serious incidents in London - they foreshadowed a political climate in which civil liberties are slowly being sacrificed. ...

....The Government has introduced measures to protect against terrorism. These go beyond anything contemplated when Britain faced far more regular -- and no less violent -- assaults from the IRA. The justification of these has sometimes come close to scaremongering. . . .

The Government has been saying, in a catchy, misleading piece of spin: "If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear." This is a demagogue's trick. We do have something to fear -- the total loss of privacy to an intrusive state with authoritarian tendencies. .....
Quote:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/7450627.stm

In his resignation statement, he said he feared 42 days was just the beginning and next "we'll next see 56 days, 70 days, 90 days".

But, he added: "In truth, 42 days is just one -- perhaps the most salient example -- of the insidious, surreptitious and relentless erosion of fundamental British freedoms."

He listed the growth of the "database state," government "snooping" ID cards, the erosion of jury trials and other issues.

"This cannot go on. It must be stopped and for that reason today I feel it is incumbent on me to make a stand," said Mr Davis....
....and those who claim to be conservative in the US, display all of the worst tendencies, motives, and ridiculous cluelessness of their "poster boy", Lindsey Graham. Maybe it's just a matter of constantly responding that they are talking and acting "UN-American", when they show such disdain for the courts and the Constitution...now, it's one, two, three...what are we fighting for?

I thought that it was for freedom from arbitrary imprisonment by executive whim?
Quote:

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/homepage/story/40899.html

* Posted on Thursday, June 12, 2008

Graham: Amend Constitution to overturn court's ruling
By James Rosen | McClatchy Newspapers

WASHINGTON — A dejected Sen. Lindsey Graham blasted the Supreme Court's ruling Thursday on Guantanamo Bay detainees, calling it "dangerous and irresponsible."

The South Carolina Republican, who's also a military lawyer and a colonel in the Air Force Reserve, helped craft the Military Commissions Act and had confidently predicted that it would pass high court muster.

The Supreme Court repudiated Graham in a 5-4 decision, ruling that the 270 alleged terrorists being held at the U.S. military prison in Cuba have a constitutional right to challenge their detentions in federal courts.

"The court's ruling makes clear the legal rights given to al Qaida members today should exceed those provided to the Nazis during World War II," Graham said. "Our nation is at war. It's truly unfortunate the Supreme Court did not recognize and appreciate that fact."

The high court's decision was its third ruling in four years against the special powers that President Bush has claimed the executive branch has to detain and try suspected terrorists since the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks.

With Graham in the lead, Congress passed the Military Commissions Act in September 2006 after an earlier Supreme Court ruling that the Bush administration couldn't set up a new system for prosecuting alleged terrorists without congressional approval.

The fresh Supreme Court decision is a major blow for Graham politically, eviscerating a law that he recently cited as one of the three achievements of his first Senate term that he was most proud of.

"To the extent that Lindsey Graham wanted to get the federal courts out of the process (of prosecuting detainees) altogether, this ruling is an absolute loss for him, and it's one that Congress can't go back around," said Thomas Crocker, a University of South Carolina law professor.

Graham said he'd explore the possibility of drafting a constitutional amendment "to blunt the effect of this decision."

Any constitutional amendment would be unlikely to move in Congress during the waning months of a lame-duck presidency, however, and at the height of a campaign for the White House.

Graham's talk of a constitutional amendment indicated how little room the Supreme Court has left him, Sen. John McCain — the presumptive Republican presidential nominee — and Bush in their long-standing effort to create a separate trial system outside the federal courts for alleged terrorists.

Graham said that the law gave terrorism suspects at Guantanamo adequate protections, including the power to ask tribunals to review their detainments and to challenge convictions before the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit.

With the Supreme Court now giving detainees full access to the federal courts, Graham warned that "some of the most liberal district courts in the country will have an opportunity to determine who is a threat to the United States."

"Federal judges will now be in charge of the day-to-day military prisons and the interrogation of prisoners," Graham said. "This will empower activist lawyers and interest groups to intervene in basic military matters for the first time in history."

Crocker of USC, though, said Graham was exaggerating the effects of the ruling.

"The court does not claim it has the power to make military decisions, but it does claim the power granted it under the Constitution to hear certain claims properly brought under the writ of habeas corpus," Crocker said.....

aceventura3 06-13-2008 10:39 AM

The Supreme Court ruling on BOUMEDIENE v. BUSH basically nullifies legislation passed by Congress and signed by Bush in October 2006 for Guantánamo detainees. There were 11 Democratic Senators and about 32 Democratic members of the House who voted in favor of the legislation. The legislation gave detainees access to be heard through modification to the Uniform Code of Military Justice.

Take note, you may not hear this from the experts, but that all this has accomplished is that in the future captured military terrorist combatants will not be housed in a manner where they will gain access to American courts, they will be turned over to our allies. They will be subject to treatment and the laws of those countries. If Democrats want to create new legislation that will give unreasonable rights to captured military combatants we may end up attempting to execute a war in an impossible set of circumstances.

I agree with Scalia's dissenting opinion, this is not good for America.

roachboy 06-13-2008 11:04 AM

the "war on terror" is only a war in a metaphorical sense, dont you think?

dc_dux 06-13-2008 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3
Take note, you may not hear this from the experts, but that all this has accomplished is that in the future captured military terrorist combatants will not be housed in a manner where they will gain access to American courts, they will be turned over to our allies. They will be subject to treatment and the laws of those countries. If Democrats want to create new legislation that will give unreasonable rights to captured military combatants we may end up attempting to execute a war in an impossible set of circumstances.

Shouldn't it be ALLEGED "terrorist combatant" SUSPECTS....or have you forgotten innocent until proven guilty.

Turning over such alleged suspects to "allies" with harsher laws of prisoner treatment than ours...or extraordinary rendition....is ILLEGAL under US treaty obligations. (There is circumstantial evidence that Bush has already done this...making him, if those allegations are ever proven correct, a war criminal).

The Democrats dont need to create new legislation...on this issue, they have the Constitution on their side.

host 06-13-2008 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3
The Supreme Court ruling on BOUMEDIENE v. BUSH basically nullifies legislation passed by Congress and signed by Bush in October 2006 for Guantánamo detainees. There were 11 Democratic Senators and about 32 Democratic members of the House who voted in favor of the legislation. The legislation gave detainees access to be heard through modification to the Uniform Code of Military Justice.

Take note, you may not hear this from the experts, but that all this has accomplished is that in the future captured military terrorist combatants will not be housed in a manner where they will gain access to American courts, they will be turned over to our allies. They will be subject to treatment and the laws of those countries. If Democrats want to create new legislation that will give unreasonable rights to captured military combatants we may end up attempting to execute a war in an impossible set of circumstances.

I agree with Scalia's dissenting opinion, this is not good for America.

ace....we were told that the executive needed the authority to determine, without evidentiary hearings, who the "bad people" are, because we woiuld be in too much danger if we allowed the designated bad people, the same rights every citizen and non-citizen in any US jurisdiction, are afforded.

But now that it has been determined that the executive cannot wield such authority, constitutionally, are you saying that "our security" was not the driving reason for transferring that authority to the executive?

...and now, you're saying..."we'll show you!!"...If the president cannot have that authority, US LEO and military will transfer that determination to another sovereign entity, after they disregard the law and instructed SOP, when they detain someone....is that your warning to us, ace?


ace....I don't understand what you are talking about. Who is to determine this "special" class of "detainees" who do not have the same rights as anyone else taken into custody by sworn American LEO or military? The president, and certainly no LEO or member of the military have that authority, according to the Constitution. Only a presumably impartial judge can make such a determination....isn't any other arrangement or advocacy, anti-constitutional, i.e, UN-American?

Other than those unalienable rights....the right to have a timely hearing of the charges and to present a defense, before an impartial judge, being one of them....what would be the reason to Fight....fight for what, ace....what are you advocating fighting your "war on terror", for, since it is not to preserve unalienable rights....what is it that you are advocating the preservation of....an executive with dictatorial power...the power of arbitrary and unjudicated imprisonment? Is that even an American, or an Anglo-Saxon concept, ace?

roachboy 06-13-2008 12:47 PM

the rationale for scalia's dissent is basically the same as that behind the bush people's "war on terror"--a state of exception which "requires" the suspension of usual processes and legalities in favor of a dictatorial-style executive. a state of exception need not be a war--it can be and usually is a sense of political crisis--but crisis can be generated from any number of sectors for any number of ends. it seems to me that first there is a real question of what a "war on terror" means and in what way it can possibly be understood as a war in anything remotely like a conventional sense. if you accept that it is a state of "crisis" covered over by metaphors of war, then the logic of scalia's dissent collapses, because it moved in the opposite direction, assuming that the "war on terror" is somehow understandable as a way in a conventional sense.

this is another way of making the point i was making earlier: what has changed really is the sense of "crisis" or hysteria--which in this case came to the same thing--the political implosion of the bush administration has taken down the hold of its gloss on a "crisis"/hysteria as "war"--it no longer has purchase--and i think that loosening of an ambient sense of "crisis" opened the space for this ruling.

mixedmedia 06-13-2008 01:13 PM

I think it's really difficult to maintain a climate of mindless fear-based hysteria, while also promoting a climate of mindless security-based consumerism.

Duh.

roachboy 06-13-2008 01:26 PM

orwell had this one sorted, you see:

Quote:

Every war when it comes, or before it comes, is represented not as a war but as an act of self-defense against a homicidal maniac.
the circuits of commodity fetishism and the fulfillment of every desire thereby could only be opposed by a lunatic, and so every form of opposition is lunacy and so every act of collective violence a defense and so no-one has to think in terms of responsibility, just reacting, in order to preserve the way of life.

mixedmedia 06-13-2008 01:29 PM

well, we're not dealing with Orwell, lol...

LoganSnake 06-13-2008 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willravel
Will we hire terrorists to blow up buildings and make our soldiers into suicide bombers next? Maybe we should.

The discussion is well underway, but I wanted to chime in on this comment.

Yes, we should. Although not at the expense of our soldier's lives. Gabriel from Swordfish said it best and I agree with him.

Quote:

Stanley: War? Who are we at war with?
Gabriel: Anyone who impinges on America's freedom. Terrorist states, Stanley. Someone must bring their war to them. They bomb a church, we bomb 10. They hijack a plane, we take out an airport. They execute American tourist, we tactically nuke an entire city. Our job is to make terrorism so horrific that is becomes unthinkable to attack Americans.
You advocate turning the other cheek. A pacifist. I say you retaliate and you retaliate ten times harder than they hit. It's not stooping down. I don't believe that there is such thing as benevolence in war. If your enemies are ruthless, you need to be even more ruthless than they are.

And on topic - good. Torture might get info out of the terrorists that hey wouldn't divulge otherwise.

P.S. This particular war I don't agree with, but the methodology should be applied.

mixedmedia 06-13-2008 01:58 PM

You think they're not thinking the same thing?

Where does it end?

Or is it just the principle of the thing?

LoganSnake 06-13-2008 02:00 PM

It ends when the other side thinks about whether it is worth losing more of their population.

mixedmedia 06-13-2008 02:02 PM

What population? They are not representing a population.

LoganSnake 06-13-2008 02:09 PM

Right. I'm talking about a war in general. Country vs country.

For this "war on terror", I posted a good quote from Swordfish. We do what they do, only 10 times harder. The thing is that I don't see the US winning anything any time in the future. I spoke to a friend of mine few days ago who is in Afghanistan right now. They're losing.

roachboy 06-13-2008 02:14 PM

this is the logic that resulted in the french loosing in algeria.
fighting an enemy they could not find, they were led by this thinking to effectively declare war on the entire algerian population, beginning with the intelligensia, which was defined in both a strict-ish and pol-pot kinda way at the same time. in the end, they created mass support for the relatively small organization that they initially were fighting (the fln) and made it into what it purported to be from the outset (but wasn't)---it's not a viable general logic. it only works in conventional nation-state vs nation-state conflicts--and even then, it's of limited utility.

there is a therapeutic function for the folk who get to make such statements, but that usually stands on it's head as well.

unless you want to treat the entire world as rome did carthage--but hey, why stop there? the enemy is within as well--lay waste to them as sow their spaces with salt. but what happens if that action generates more enemies within? and what happens when you yourself begin to wonder what the fuck you're doing?

it only sounds coherent, what you are arguing.

LoganSnake 06-13-2008 02:17 PM

Actually, that's why I said that I don't like and don't support this war. Terrorism is everywhere and it is not likely to end.

It makes as much as sense as the war on drugs.

mixedmedia 06-13-2008 02:45 PM

Not likely to end. Yes. I think people are finally accepting this.

With acceptance again, comes the capacity for rationale...even if it is of a dejected and acquiescent sort. But at least you can move forward from that.

Yep, the rest of the world finally caught up with 'merica.

aceventura3 06-13-2008 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dc_dux
Shouldn't it be ALLEGED "terrorist combatant" SUSPECTS....or have you forgotten innocent until proven guilty.

This is not about domestic crime. We are at war.

Quote:

Originally Posted by host
ace....we were told that the executive needed the authority to determine, without evidentiary hearings, who the "bad people" are, because we woiuld be in too much danger if we allowed the designated bad people, the same rights every citizen and non-citizen in any US jurisdiction, are afforded.


Did you read the opinions? Did you look at the law in question? There are controls in place. Controls requested by the courts and legislation passed by Congress with some bi-lateral support.

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy
the "war on terror" is only a war in a metaphorical sense, dont you think?

No.

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy
the rationale for scalia's dissent is basically the same as that behind the bush people's "war on terror"--a state of exception which "requires" the suspension of usual processes and legalities in favor of a dictatorial-style executive. a state of exception need not be a war--it can be and usually is a sense of political crisis--but crisis can be generated from any number of sectors for any number of ends.

We are in a war where Congress authorized the use of military force and gave the President broad authority to use it. Bi-lateral support I might add. Bush's war, is our war.

dc_dux 06-13-2008 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3
This is not about domestic crime. We are at war.

The Constitution applies to more than domestic crime and more than just US citizens. The right of habeas corpus is a basic Constitutional right.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3
We are in a war where Congress authorized the use of military force and gave the President broad authority to use it. Bi-lateral support I might add.

Unlike you, Bush has never attempted to apply the "Use of Force" resolution to the treatment of detainees/non-combatants. He just tried to unilaterally interpret the Constitution and US obligations under the Geneva Conventions (with a rationale provided by Alberto Gonzales)..and has been overruled by the the SCOTUS repeatedly.

After the SCOTUS ruled in 2004 (Rasul v. Bush) that detainees have the right to challenge the legality of their detention in US courts (applications for habeas corpus), he got the Republican Congress to enact the Detainee Treatment Act in 2005, which officially stripped the federal courts of any authority to hear detainee cases.

The SCOTUS overturned that law in 2006 (Humdi v Rumsfeld) when it ruled that military commissions at Guantanamo Bay violated the laws of war and international conventions.

...which resulted in another attempt to circumvent the Constitution and international conventions with the Military Commissions Act, that in effect was overturned by the most recent decision (Boumediene v. Bush). The court ruled that detainees have rights under the Constitution to challenge their detention in civilian courts.
"The laws and Constitution are designed to survive, and remain in force, in extraordinary times. Liberty and security can be reconciled; and in our system, they are reconciled within the framework of law. The Framers decided that habeas corpus, a right of first importance, must be a part of that framework, part of that law." - Justice Anthony Kennedy in the majority opinon
Quote:

Bush's war is our war.
Bush's war may be your war...it sure as hell isnt mine. The sooner we restore the rule of law, the better we will be as a nation.
"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" - attributed to Benjamin Franklin

"The practice of arbitrary imprisonments, in all ages, is the favorite and most formidable instruments of tyranny" - Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 84

dksuddeth 06-14-2008 05:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoganSnake
You advocate turning the other cheek. A pacifist. I say you retaliate and you retaliate ten times harder than they hit. It's not stooping down. I don't believe that there is such thing as benevolence in war. If your enemies are ruthless, you need to be even more ruthless than they are.

P.S. This particular war I don't agree with, but the methodology should be applied.

some people seem to never learn the lessons from WW2, korea, and vietnam. Reprisals against civilian populations NEVER attain your objective, they only serve to incite a larger body of enemies.

Baraka_Guru 06-14-2008 06:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth
some people seem to never learn the lessons from WW2, korea, and vietnam. Reprisals against civilian populations NEVER attain your objective, they only serve to incite a larger body of enemies.

Thank you for this. This has been sitting badly with me since I read it, and I wasn't yet sure how I wanted to respond. This is a good start.

I cannot believe the suggestion that Hiroshima and Nagasaki were America's greatest wartime atrocities--and should not have happened--is so open for debate. They were monstrous acts. Deplorable. America's greatest failure of humanity. It's that simple.

To suggest wanton cruelty in retaliation to an enemy, especially where civilians are concerted, and simply in the name of war, overlooks a basic humanism that, when lost, forever changes the face of a nation. A no-holds-barred approach to war, especially in this day and age of communication and community has no place in the world. That America must do this suggests its power is waning. The failures of the American industrial complex isn't the worst of the nation's problems, yet it is the most indicative sign of an overall misguidance and loss of ingenuity.

TheNasty 06-14-2008 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pig
yeah roach,

but that presupposes, even if its devil's advocate style for the sake of argument, that the primary function of current torture techniques is to gain information. i have to assume that the military shrinks are as competent as any, on average; therefore i have to deduce that they are not, in fact, after information. i can only surmise that they seek to humiliate and instill fear into our adversaries. perhaps develop scapegoats for the public eye whilst our military covertly operates on other premises and angles. i can not believe that the people who are actually working the various policies being enacted actually think this bullshit works. i don't like it, but i do think that its as much "hey - we're as badass and coldhearted as you fuckers are. our citizens may live nice little kotex padded lives, but our guardians are real fuckers." as anything else.

even that i could deal with on a certain level, as it would open the door for useful discussion and debate that is based in reality. the fantasy debates are just tedious.

When dealing with an enemy that cuts peoples heads off and broadcasts it as a propaganda tool, typically you have to represent yourself as "real fuckers".

Of course now we get to capture them and allow them to try and convince institutions that wouldn't exist, if they had their wishes, that they were just at the wrong place at the wrong time.

I'm sure a few will succeed too.

aceventura3 06-16-2008 07:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dc_dux
The Constitution applies to more than domestic crime and more than just US citizens. The right of habeas corpus is a basic Constitutional right.

If habeas corpus was applied to military detainees during all of our wars every war time President in our history was in violation of the Constitution. Even the Supreme Court's ruling does not take this issue as far as your comment suggests.


Quote:

Unlike you, Bush has never attempted to apply the "Use of Force" resolution to the treatment of detainees/non-combatants. He just tried to unilaterally interpret the Constitution and US obligations under the Geneva Conventions (with a rationale provided by Alberto Gonzales)..and has been overruled by the the SCOTUS repeatedly.
Get your facts straight. Unilateral? If he had the help of Congress how is that unilateral? What was overturned was legislation, the legislation you reference below.

Quote:

After the SCOTUS ruled in 2004 (Rasul v. Bush) that detainees have the right to challenge the legality of their detention in US courts (applications for habeas corpus), he got the Republican Congress to enact the Detainee Treatment Act in 2005, which officially stripped the federal courts of any authority to hear detainee cases.

The SCOTUS overturned that law in 2006 (Humdi v Rumsfeld) when it ruled that military commissions at Guantanamo Bay violated the laws of war and international conventions.

...which resulted in another attempt to circumvent the Constitution and international conventions with the Military Commissions Act, that in effect was overturned by the most recent decision (Boumediene v. Bush). The court ruled that detainees have rights under the Constitution to challenge their detention in civilian courts.
"The laws and Constitution are designed to survive, and remain in force, in extraordinary times. Liberty and security can be reconciled; and in our system, they are reconciled within the framework of law. The Framers decided that habeas corpus, a right of first importance, must be a part of that framework, part of that law." - Justice Anthony Kennedy in the majority opinon

With support of some Democrats our government tried to bring clarity to this issue. You call it an attempt to circumvent the Constitution. In my eyes I see the process working as it should, even though I disagree with the latest ruling. It seems your assumption is that the people working on this had or have some motives that are not supported by any facts.


Quote:

Bush's war may be your war...it sure as hell isnt mine.
I assumed you are a US citizen. US citizens are paying a high cost for this war. Our elected political leaders authorized and are executing this war. Our sons and daughters are at risk in this war. Our tax dollars fund the war.

Quote:

The sooner we restore the rule of law, the better we will be as a nation.
"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" - attributed to Benjamin Franklin

"The practice of arbitrary imprisonments, in all ages, is the favorite and most formidable instruments of tyranny" - Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 84

I am going to assume I don't understand this comment rather than relying on my initial reaction to it. My initial reaction is that you think all will be o.k. if those Guantánamo detainees are heard in Federal Court. I think we are an honorable nation and that we are treating these detainees in a humane fashion in accordance with our laws

dc_dux 06-16-2008 07:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3
If habeas corpus was applied to military detainees during all of our wars every war time President in our history was in violation of the Constitution. Even the Supreme Court's ruling does not take this issue as far as your comment suggests.

The Constitution proivide for two exceptions to the rights of habeaus:
Article 1, section 9
The privilege of the writ of habeas corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in cases of rebellion or invasion the public safety may require it.
The detainees held at Gitmo are part of neither a rebellion nor an invasion.

In fact, a large number of the detainees were guilty of nothing but being caught up in a sweep or turned in by a neighbor for cash....and after as many as 4+ years in Gitmo w/o being charge, w/o access to legal counsel, family or anyone, had no rights at all.
An eight-month McClatchy investigation in 11 countries on three continents has found that.... according to several officials, perhaps hundreds — whom the U.S. has wrongfully imprisoned in Afghanistan, Cuba and elsewhere on the basis of flimsy or fabricated evidence, old personal scores or bounty payments.

See: America's prison for terrorists often held the wrong men

Quote:

Get your facts straight. Unilateral? If he had the help of Congress how is that unilateral? What was overturned was legislation, the legislation you reference below.
Yes, unilatteral.

It was Bush/Gonzales who unilatterly determined a new definition of persons who are not guaranteed habeaus under Article I, Sect 9 or the Geneva Conventions. (see below #174- Gonzales explanation at Judiciary Commttee hearing)
The courts have rejected that on three separate occasions now.

Quote:

I assumed you are a US citizen. US citizens are paying a high cost for this war. Our elected political leaders authorized and are executing this war. Our sons and daughters are at risk in this war. Our tax dollars fund the war.
As I US citizen, I do not support illegal acts of goverment in the name of some ill-defined "war against terrorism"...particularly when it tramples on the Constituion -- resorts to the use of torture, the denial of habeaus corpus, and, I would add, wiretappng American citizens w/o a warrant....all examples of infringing on basic rights in the name of "national security."

ratbastid 06-16-2008 08:04 AM

ace, I've seen you question the usage of the word "unilateral" several times now.

Here's a hint: when new law is signed into effect in a signing statement that Congress never saw, that's unilateral. When new policies and rules are implemented top-down straight out of the Commander In Chief's office, that's unilateral.

I know you'd like to have Congress (sorry: "the Democratic Congress"--never mind that the majority is razor-slim) be complicit in this, but the fact is, they're not. They're no angels, but in this, the Executive Branch acted utterly alone.

What REALLY scares me is, this ruling was 5 to 4. One more right-winger on the SCOTUS, and this shit would be constitutional.

dc_dux 06-16-2008 08:19 AM

You can watch Gonzales attempt to explain that habeaus is not a Constitutional right.


aceventura3 06-16-2008 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratbastid
ace, I've seen you question the usage of the word "unilateral" several times now.

Here's a hint: when new law is signed into effect in a signing statement that Congress never saw, that's unilateral. When new policies and rules are implemented top-down straight out of the Commander In Chief's office, that's unilateral.

I know you'd like to have Congress (sorry: "the Democratic Congress"--never mind that the majority is razor-slim) be complicit in this, but the fact is, they're not. They're no angels, but in this, the Executive Branch acted utterly alone.

What REALLY scares me is, this ruling was 5 to 4. One more right-winger on the SCOTUS, and this shit would be constitutional.

At what point do you give allowance for process? A) Assuming a President did do something "unilaterally" and or system of checks and balances either supports or rejects that "unilateral" action, is it still "unilateral"? In my opinion no. I would say no, even in a circumstance where the other branches of government failed to take any action. We do not have royalty or a dictatorship. Yes, I have a problem with the concept of "unilateral" action in our form of government. It is temporary at best. In this case all branches of our federal government was a part of the process.

ratbastid 06-16-2008 01:07 PM

We have a presidency that has acted like royalty or a dictatorship, is my point. The SCOTUS, by an alarmingly slim margin of 5 to 4, brought them somewhat to heel, but the damage has WAY been done.

How DO you feel about presidential signing statements that significantly amend or create exceptions to newly-signed law, ace? Or about policies about prisoner treatment (as just one example) that fly in the face of morality, convention and treaty, which got created in the Oval Office without any oversight from anybody? Doesn't that seem a bit unilateral? Do you have a problem with those things? I certainly do, but I'd love to hear your reasoning if you don't.

The question of whether you think those things actually happened is a DIFFERENT question. I'm less interested in your answer to that other question, but I suppose if you have to give your answer to it, feel free. Please do NOT use that second question as a means to not have to answer the first one. Not that you'd ever be that intellectually dishonest--I'm just pointing out one mistake you might make if you weren't paying attention. ;)

aceventura3 06-16-2008 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratbastid
We have a presidency that has acted like royalty or a dictatorship, is my point. The SCOTUS, by an alarmingly slim margin of 5 to 4, brought them somewhat to heel, but the damage has WAY been done.

My point is - so what if we have a President who acts like royalty or a dictator. Congress and the Judicial Branch have an obligation to chop it off at the knees. To the degree a President gets away with "unilateralism" is to the degree our other branches are not doing their jobs. This is not a case where other branches failed to be involved.

Quote:

How DO you feel about presidential signing statements that significantly amend or create exceptions to newly-signed law, ace? Or about policies about prisoner treatment (as just one example) that fly in the face of morality, convention and treaty, which got created in the Oval Office without any oversight from anybody? Doesn't that seem a bit unilateral? Do you have a problem with those things? I certainly do, but I'd love to hear your reasoning if you don't.
See above comment.

Quote:

The question of whether you think those things actually happened is a DIFFERENT question. I'm less interested in your answer to that other question, but I suppose if you have to give your answer to it, feel free. Please do NOT use that second question as a means to not have to answer the first one. Not that you'd ever be that intellectually dishonest--I'm just pointing out one mistake you might make if you weren't paying attention. ;)
o.k.

ratbastid 06-16-2008 01:50 PM

Right, well, you dodged the question after all.

There's NO STRUCTURE for reviewing presidential signing statements. They were mere comments before Bush started changing law in them. They're utterly extraconstitutional. And technically, they carry no legal weight, except that Bush authorized military action based on them. So now you've got the US military following laws that aren't laws except the boss says they are, and there's no procedure for any other branch of government to balance it. THAT'S what we mean by unilateral.

Now: I know in aceland, that never happened. My question for you is, IF IT DID, you would you have a problem with that?

Yakk 06-16-2008 02:15 PM

So, the USA has passed a law saying "we feel it is right that the US President can kidnap and torture citizens of every other nation on the entire planet at a whim. This power should not be subject to any kind of judicial review, reasonable process, or congressional review. To every citizen of every other nation of the entire world: fuck you."

I just wanted to see if I understood the meaning of this law. Did I miss anything important, or otherwise misunderstand?

mixedmedia 06-16-2008 02:59 PM

You forgot to say thank you.

Mojo_PeiPei 06-16-2008 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yakk
So, the USA has passed a law saying "we feel it is right that the US President can kidnap and torture citizens of every other nation on the entire planet at a whim. This power should not be subject to any kind of judicial review, reasonable process, or congressional review. To every citizen of every other nation of the entire world: fuck you."

I just wanted to see if I understood the meaning of this law. Did I miss anything important, or otherwise misunderstand?

I still don't get how the Guantanmo Bay detentions stand as arbitrary. When you are arrested as an illegal combatant, which would provide for much gray area for "criminal status", you don't have to necessarily be afforded the right to a public trial.

Now perhaps someone can help me make sure I am up to speed on this, but the latest supreme court ruling effectively upholds the detentions still, only it allows the detainee's to challenge their status, correct?

Still the point of contention seems to be that people don't think the US military should be allowed to "arrest" people as illegal combatants. The catch with that issue is that there is no codified means of determining what makes one's status illegal, rather it is determined by a treaty one century old and what isn't codified in treaties such as geneva.

Again, if the courts state the men are allowed to challenge their status, would that not mean that Habeas stands? If that is the case, which the SC's decision seems to point to, I would take that as a big example that the detentions at Guantanamo Bay are completely legal and not arbitrary... so long as they allow the challenges to status.

I thought this might help, read the bold...

Quote:

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

Willravel 06-16-2008 09:13 PM

"In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed..."
There's no asterisk that says "unless you're an 'enemy combatant'" in there. The person is only described as "the accused". And if you're not accused, then you're free to go.

Mojo_PeiPei 06-16-2008 09:20 PM

Do military personnel get tried by a civilian court? Besides I sure these men are not being tried in criminal proceedings in the same sense I were if I got a DUI or murdered somebody. They were picked up by the military, thusly they are regulated to tribunals. Do I need to dust off Ex Parte Quirin?

dc_dux 06-17-2008 04:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mojo_PeiPei
Do military personnel get tried by a civilian court? Besides I sure these men are not being tried in criminal proceedings in the same sense I were if I got a DUI or murdered somebody. They were picked up by the military, thusly they are regulated to tribunals. Do I need to dust off Ex Parte Quirin?

Persons held at Gitmo are not military personnel....they are "enemy" non-combatants..and Bush has attempted to define that status in the most restrictive terms possible with regard to any rights under US law or treaty obligations.

My understanding of how this has played out:

Bush first attempted to make the case that they had no rights under the Constitution because they were not being held on US soil and the US had no sovereignty over Gitmo (Cuba still maintains sovereignty).

The USSC said NO....the US has jurisdiction over Gitmo (as a result of treaty w/Cuba) so non-combatants have rights.

As a result of that decision, Bush brought the Republican Congress into the act.

Then came the "military tribunals or commissions" as defined in the Detainee Treatment Act.....it did not provide the detainees with direct access to the federal courts, but only with access to a fair and impartial hearing to a tribunal constitutionally authorized by Congress and proceeding with certain due process guarantees comparable to the UCMJ or the terms of the Geneva Conventions.

The USSC said NO again....and struck it down because it failed to meet that test of providing rights comparable to the UCMJ and the Geneva Conventions.

So Bush and hs friends in Congress tried again with the Military Commissions Act.

The USSC said NO for a third time and ruled that detainees have rights under the Constitution to challenge their detention in civilian courts...including the right to habeas corpus.

And I would point readers again to the fact that a large number of the detainees (hundreds?) were not terrorists or enemy non-combatants or even guilty of anything at all but being caught up in a sweep or turned in by a neighbor for cash....and after as many as 4+ years in Gitmo w/o being charge, w/o access to legal counsel, family or anyone, had no virtually rights at all.
An eight-month McClatchy investigation in 11 countries on three continents has found that.... according to several officials, perhaps hundreds — whom the U.S. has wrongfully imprisoned in Afghanistan, Cuba and elsewhere on the basis of flimsy or fabricated evidence, old personal scores or bounty payments.

See: America's prison for terrorists often held the wrong men
This is a very good and straight forward graphic on Detainees and the Rule of Law (pdf)


added...on the issue of torture:

The Senate Armed Services Committee is beginning hearings today to review the origins of Bush's policies regarding torture.

ooops...I should say "enhanced interrogation techniques"...we all know that the US doesnt torture...because Bush/Cheney/Rice/Mukasey say we dont and since Bush has unilaterally defined "enhanced interrogation techniques" ....we should take their word for it?

The Committee is still demanding the appearance of John Woo, the DoJ official who wrote the infamous "justification for torture" memo that has guided the Bush policy....torture is defined as resulting in death, organ failure or serious impairment of body functions"...anything else is acceptable.

Yakk 06-17-2008 06:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mojo_PeiPei
I still don't get how the Guantanmo Bay detentions stand as arbitrary. When you are arrested as an illegal combatant, which would provide for much gray area for "criminal status", you don't have to necessarily be afforded the right to a public trial.

First, I see no functioning reasonable review process that demonstrates that the prisoners at Guantanmo Bay are anything that the Administration says that they are at all. As far as I can tell, they are arbitrary people who the Administration says are bad, who they feel free to torture, imprision, and hold for an arbitrary period of time, with (up until this point) only kangeroo court juristiction (I'm sorry Mr Judge, but you aren't rolling over -- you are fired and replaced with someone else...)

Quote:

Now perhaps someone can help me make sure I am up to speed on this, but the latest supreme court ruling effectively upholds the detentions still, only it allows the detainee's to challenge their status, correct?
It states, narrowly, that the current review system is insufficient. It does not state what review system would be sufficient, it just states that the current review system is not. And without sufficient review, it states that those held must be able to require the government demonstrate a god damn justification for why they are being held in prison for an indefinite period.

You do know that this is what the court cases are about? Not about torture -- just "you haven't even STATED and PROVEN why these people are being held". The prisoners are completely arbitrarily. Some functionary said "keep this person in jail", and based off nothing but that they are in jail for an indefinite period.

Quote:

Still the point of contention seems to be that people don't think the US military should be allowed to "arrest" people as illegal combatants. The catch with that issue is that there is no codified means of determining what makes one's status illegal, rather it is determined by a treaty one century old and what isn't codified in treaties such as geneva.
As it stands, the US holds that the President can, with no real review, state that anyone* the president chooses falls outside the scope of all rights and treaty obligations, and treat them however the President wants.

* This being limited to non-US citizens is possibly true. Hence the "rest of the world: fuck you".

Also note that the US holds that it has the right to invade other countries, kidnap people there, and do with them as they please. This isn't "other countries that are terrorist havens" -- it fucking happened in Italy, while one branch of the US government was tracking down someone with the help of the Italian government, another jumped in and kidnapped (while speaking openly over Company cell phones, idiots) someone.

Quote:

Again, if the courts state the men are allowed to challenge their status, would that not mean that Habeas stands? If that is the case, which the SC's decision seems to point to, I would take that as a big example that the detentions at Guantanamo Bay are completely legal and not arbitrary... so long as they allow the challenges to status.
There has been no actual challenge to their status allowed in open court. Many of the people there have been detained for 5+ years, with no access to real lawyers, no access to courts, arbitrary abuse by people who consider them to have absolutely no rights under any treaty or law...

Or am I in error?

Has the US not bagged the heads of "bad people", made them form human periods, attached electrodes to the penis and balls of prisoners, and fucking photographed them and bragged about it? Has the US Senate not passed a bill saying "so long as you don't torture Americans, go ahead and make your own decisions about how far you can go Mr President. Do whatever you want. We place no limits on what you do to non-Americans"? Has the US Congress and Senate not sat idly by as the US executive branch has claimed the right to imprison without trial, without review, without access to law, any foreign individual that the US executive branch feels like imprisoning, for as long as the US executive branch feels like?

So I say again: have I misread the "FUCK YOU" that the US government, the agent of the people, is sending the entire fucking world?

I need to know. Elections are coming up, and there are various parties. Some want to continue supporting missions that help the US government, and not say "fuck you" to the US government. Others want to withdraw all help to the US government's military adventures abroad.

You may or may not care -- but right now, Canadian troops are engaged in the hottest part of Afghanistan, with fatality rates that exceed any other military organization engaged in US-allied military adventures. Is the US saying "fuck you" to me? I have an election to prepare for.

host 06-17-2008 07:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mojo_PeiPei
I still don't get how the Guantanmo Bay detentions stand as arbitrary. When you are arrested as an illegal combatant, which would provide for much gray area for "criminal status", you don't have to necessarily be afforded the right to a public trial.

Now perhaps someone can help me make sure I am up to speed on this, but the latest supreme court ruling effectively upholds the detentions still, only it allows the detainee's to challenge their status, correct?

Still the point of contention seems to be that people don't think the US military should be allowed to "arrest" people as illegal combatants. The catch with that issue is that there is no codified means of determining what makes one's status illegal, rather it is determined by a treaty one century old and what isn't codified in treaties such as geneva.

Again, if the courts state the men are allowed to challenge their status, would that not mean that Habeas stands? If that is the case, which the SC's decision seems to point to, I would take that as a big example that the detentions at Guantanamo Bay are completely legal and not arbitrary... so long as they allow the challenges to status.

I thought this might help, read the bold...

Mojo_PeiPei, are you not "getting this", because you just don't want to?

Is this the condition, at the time of arrest....:
Quote:

....when in actual service in time of War or public danger..
....simply because Bush or Cheney say that it is? I am sorry, Mojo, but these "leaders", threw away their own credibility....the capacity of American people who read the documentation in my post....to ever trust them at their word....


If the officials and their policies were above board, why the misleading statements from them, then the threats against their critics, then McClatcheys new "truth to power" reporting, just this week.....Mojo...they "arrest" the wrong effing people, and without swift hearings before an impartial judge in a civilian court, where the evidence can be examined, and the charges against the arrestee heard....and the arrestee given a chance to prevent his version, and produce any evidence he might have in his own defense....you get this embarassing, tragic, counter-productive, anti international law....EFFECTS...we show you, over and over, and over....and you still must be taking Bush/Cheney at their word, or you wouldn't have posted what you did......

From an old post, circa Dec., 2006:
Quote:

http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...ld#post2204011

Quote:

Originally Posted by politicophile
A sensible move on the part of the Bush administration, for both of the reasons you have cited above. I find the administration's argument that poems are formatted in a way that makes concealment of hidden messages easier to be relatively pursuasive. After all, poetry is well-known for conveying multiple meanings within the same piece of text.

As for the dehumanizing aspect, I fear you are also correct. The administration has done a very effective job of making people forget about Gitmo's existence and a collection of poetry like this one would signficantly impair this effort. It is a sad state of affairs that the administration believes its terror prisoner facilities can continue to be operated only if the public does not think enough about them to create a disturbance.

I am sorry, politicophile....I can't let your statements and the beliefs that they infer (to me....anyway...) that you harbor, about who the detainees at Guantanamo are, and why they are there....go unchallenged.

Here are quotes from Bush and Cheney...they aren't "filtered" by the "liberal" media, they are from the white house website:
Quote:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...0060906-3.html
For Immediate Release
Office of the Press Secretary
September 6, 2006

President Discusses Creation of Military Commissions to Try Suspected Terrorists
The East Room

THE PRESIDENT:......Most of the enemy combatants we capture are held in Afghanistan or in Iraq, where they're questioned by our military personnel. Many are released after questioning, or turned over to local authorities -- if we determine that they do not pose a continuing threat and no longer have significant intelligence value. Others remain in American custody near the battlefield, to ensure that they don't return to the fight.

In some cases, we determine that individuals we have captured pose a significant threat, or may have intelligence that we and our allies need to have to prevent new attacks. Many are al Qaeda operatives or Taliban fighters trying to conceal their identities, and they withhold information that could save American lives. In these cases, it has been necessary to move these individuals to an environment where they can be held secretly [sic], questioned by experts, and -- when appropriate -- prosecuted for terrorist acts.

President George W. Bush addresses invited guests, members of the media and White House staff Wednesday. Sept. 6, 2006 in the East Room of the White House, as he discusses the administration's draft legislation to create a strong and effective military commission to try suspected terrorists. The bill being sent to Congress said President Bush, "reflects the reality that we are a nation at war, and that it is essential for us to use all reliable evidence to bring these people to justice." White House photo by Kimberlee Hewitt Some of these individuals are taken to the United States Naval Base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. It's important for Americans and others across the world to understand the kind of people held at Guantanamo. These aren't common criminals, or bystanders accidentally swept up on the battlefield -- we have in place a rigorous process to ensure those held at Guantanamo Bay belong at Guantanamo. Those held at Guantanamo include suspected bomb makers, terrorist trainers, recruiters and facilitators, and potential suicide bombers. They are in our custody so they cannot murder our people. One detainee held at Guantanamo told a questioner questioning him -- he said this: "I'll never forget your face. I will kill you, your brothers, your mother, and sisters."

In addition to the terrorists held at Guantanamo, a small number of suspected terrorist leaders and operatives captured during the war have been held and questioned outside the United States, in a separate program operated by the Central Intelligence Agency.....
Quote:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...0060629-3.html
For Immediate Release
Office of the Press Secretary
June 29, 2006

President Bush and Japanese Prime Minister Koizumi Participate in a Joint Press Availability

.....Q Thank you, Mr. President. You've said that you wanted to close the prison at Guantanamo Bay, but you were waiting for the Supreme Court decision that came out today. Do you intend now to close the Guantanamo Bay quickly? And how do you deal with the suspects that you've said were too dangerous to be released or sent home?

PRESIDENT BUSH: Thank you for the question on a court ruling that literally came out in the midst of my meeting with the Prime Minister -- and so I haven't had a chance to fully review the findings of the Supreme Court. I, one, assure you that we take them very seriously. Two, that to the extent that there is latitude to work with the Congress to determine whether or not the military tribunals will be an avenue in which to give people their day in court, we will do so.

The American people need to know that this ruling, as I understand it, won't cause killers to be put out on the street. In other words, there's not a -- it was a drive-by briefing on the way here, I was told that this was not going to be the case. At any rate, we will seriously look at the findings, obviously. And one thing I'm not going to do, though, is I'm not going to jeopardize the safety of the American people. People have got to understand that. I understand we're in a war on terror; that these people were picked up off of a battlefield; and I will protect the people and, at the same time, conform with the findings of the Supreme Court. .....
Quote:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...0050623-8.html
For Immediate Release
Office of the Vice President
June 23, 2005

Interview of the Vice President by Wolf Blitzer, CNN

.....Q A few other quick questions before we end this interview. Should Gitmo -- Guantanamo Bay's detention center be shut down, the detainees moved elsewhere?

THE VICE PRESIDENT: No.

Q Because?

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Because it's a vital facility. The people that are there are people we picked up on the battlefield primarily in Afghanistan. They're terrorists. They're bomb-makers. They're facilitators of terror. They're members of al Qaeda and the Taliban. We've screened everybody we had. We had some 800 people down there. We've screened them all, and we've let go those that we've deemed not to be a continuing threat. But the 520 some that are there now are serious, deadly threats to the United States. For the most part, if you let them out, they'll go back to trying to kill Americans.

Q Nobody says let them out, but move them to Fort Leavenworth, Kansas or someplace like that.

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Why would you do that? ......
Quote:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...050620-19.html
For Immediate Release
Office of the Press Secretary
June 20, 2005

President Hosts United States - European Union Summit
The East Room

..... Q Mr. President, many in Europe are worrying that with the fight against terrorism the commitment of the United States to human rights is not as big as it used to be -- that is not only to do with Guantanamo, but also with the secret prisons where the CIA holds terror suspects. My question is, what will happen to these people who are held in these secret prisons by the CIA? Will they ever see a judge? Or is your thinking that with some terror suspects, the rule of law should not apply or does not have to have applied.

PRESIDENT BUSH: First of all, I appreciate that question, and I understand we -- those of us who espouse freedom have an obligation, and those who espouse human rights have an obligation to live that to those -- live up to those words. And I believe we are, in Guantanamo. I mean, after all, there's 24 hour inspections by the International Red Cross. You're welcome to go down yourself -- maybe you have -- and taking a look at the conditions. I urge members of our press corps to go down to Guantanamo and see how they're treated and to see -- and to see -- and to look at the facts. That's all I ask people to do. There have been, I think, about 800 or so that have been detained there. These are people picked up off the battlefield in Afghanistan. They weren't wearing uniforms, they weren't state sponsored, but they were there to kill.

And so the fundamental question facing our government was, what do you do with these people? And so we said that they don't apply under the Geneva Convention, but they'll be treated in accord with the Geneva Convention.

And so I would urge you to go down and take a look at Guantanamo. About 200 or so have been released back to their countries. There needs to be a way forward on the other 500 that are there. We're now waiting for a federal court to decide whether or not they can be tried in a military court, where they'll have rights, of course, or in the civilian courts. We're just waiting for our judicial process to move -- to move the process along.

Make no mistake, however, that many of those folks being detained -- in humane conditions, I might add -- are dangerous people. Some have been released to their previous countries, and they got out and they went on to the battlefield again.......
....and here is the documentation that supports the idea that both Bush and Cheney intentionally misled us, and the world, to the point of telling lies, in their descriptions of who the majority of the Guantanamo detainees are, and the circumstances of their capture, and the offense that they have committed against the US and it's allies:
Quote:

http://gtmodocuments.blogspot.com/20...as-lawyer.html
Wednesday, December 6, 2006
My Worst Moment As a Lawyer

By P. Sabin Willett

December 5, 2006
Newburyport, MA

My worst moment as a lawyer took place on August 30, 2006, at the stroke of noon, just as I was leaving Echo One, an interrogation cell at Guantanamo Bay.....

....So let’s have no more of hypotheticals this evening. Let’s stick to facts. Besides, if we don’t get to the facts soon, I’ll never come round to my worst moment as a lawyer. And the main fact we’d like is this. After five years, who are we holding down there at Guantanamo Bay, anyway?

The way we used to answer that question in this country was in a habeas corpus hearing. The prisoner would demand the legal basis for his imprisonment. The government would have its say. And a judge would decide. But this Fall your Congress and your President abolished that.. So how do we answer the question?

One way is rhetorically.

[Slide: Guantanamo Rhetorically: Who are the Prisoners?]

slide
“The people that are there are people we picked up on the battlefield, primarily in Afghanistan. They’re terrorists. They’re bomb makers. They’re facilitators of terror. They’re members of Al Qaeda and the Taliban --
Vice President Cheney

slide
Among the most dangerous, best trained, vicious killers on the face of the earth
Donald Rumsfeld (Jan. 27, 2002)

slide
They would “gnaw through hydraulic lines of transport planes.”[1]
Gen. Richard Myers (Jan. 11, 2002),

“Captured on the battlefield seeking to harm U.S. soldiers,”
Sen. John Cornyn.

Guantanamo By the Numbers
So the rhetoric is powerful and alarming. What about the numbers?

Number of Prisoners Held at Guantanamo Bay Cuba
Approx. 450

Years of Captivity for Most Prisoners
4 ½

Number of prisoners charged with crimes
10

Number of prisoners charged with 9/11-Related Crimes
0

Number of prisoners convicted of any crime
0

Percentage of alleged battlefield Captures
5*
*source: summary of military allegations in 517 CSRT transcripts (Seton Hall Law School, February, 2006)

Percentage of prisoners alleged to have engaged in violence
45*
*source: summary of military allegations in 517 CSRT transcripts (Seton Hall Law School, February, 2006)


Well, hold on, wait a minute. Senior officials said these people were the worst of the worst, and you’re saying only 5% were taken on the battlefield? If only 5% were taken on the battlefield, where did the rest come from?
click here to read the rest of this article   click to show 

Quote:

http://nationaljournal.com/about/njw...06/0203nj2.htm

COVER STORY
Who Is at Guantanamo Bay
·
Empty Evidence

By Corine Hegland, National Journal
© National Journal Group Inc.
Friday, Feb. 3, 2006

As a result of the habeas corpus petitions filed by attorneys representing Guantanamo detainees, the Defense Department has had to file court documents on 132 of the enemy combatants, or just under a quarter of the prison's population. National Journal undertook a detailed review of the unclassified files to develop profiles of the 132 men. NJ separately reviewed transcripts for 314 prisoners who pleaded their cases before Combatant Status Review Tribunals at Guantanamo. Taken together, the information provides a picture of who, exactly, has been taken prisoner in the war on terror and is being held in an anomalous U.S. military prison on an island belonging to one of America's bitterest enemies.

Shortly after the September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, President Bush issued a military order that authorized the Defense Department to detain noncitizens suspected of having ties with Al Qaeda or other terrorists. As a result, hundreds of so-called "enemy combatants" were rounded up and taken to prisons in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. Since early 2002, lawyers working on a volunteer basis have filed papers with U.S. courts asking the government to explain why it is holding individual prisoners. These habeas corpus petitions have forced disclosures by the Defense Department that shed light on some of the details surrounding the estimated 500 prisoners currently in U.S. captivity.

The Defense Department declined a request to release comparable statistics for all of the detainees held at Guantanamo Bay.

The first thing that jumps out of the statistics is that a majority of the detainees in both groups are not Afghans -- nor were they picked up in Afghanistan as U.S. troops fought the Taliban and Al Qaeda, nor were they picked up by American troops at all. Most are from Arab countries, and most were arrested in Pakistan by Pakistani authorities.
to read the rest of this article   click to show 


The 314 transcripts released to the Associated Press under a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit give similar results. The 314 men described there included 97 Afghans who were arrested in Afghanistan. But they also included 211 foreigners, 152 of whom -- or more than 70 percent -- were arrested outside of Afghanistan. And 145 of those men were captured in Pakistan.
Quote:

http://law.shu.edu/news/guantanamo_r...al_2_08_06.pdf
REPORT ON GUANTANAMO DETAINEES
A Profile of 517 Detainees through Analysis of Department of Defense Data
By
Mark Denbeaux
Professor, Seton Hall University School of Law and
Counsel to two Guantanamo detainees
Joshua Denbeaux, Esq.
Denbeaux & Denbeaux
David Gratz, John Gregorek, Matthew Darby, Shana Edwards,
Shane Hartman, Daniel Mann and Helen Skinner
Students, Seton Hall University School of Law

Page 2.

THE GUANTANAMO DETAINEES: THE GOVERNMENT’S STORY
Professor Mark Denbeaux* and Joshua Denbeaux*
An interim report
EXECUTIVE SUMMARY

The media and public fascination with who is detained at Guantanamo and why has been
fueled in large measure by the refusal of the Government, on the grounds of national security, to
provide much information about the individuals and the charges against them. The information
available to date has been anecdotal and erratic, drawn largely from interviews with the few
detainees who have been released or from statements or court filings by their attorneys in the
pending habeas corpus proceedings that the Government has not declared “classified.”
This Report is the first effort to provide a more detailed picture of who the Guantanamo
detainees are, how they ended up there, and the purported bases for their enemy combatant
designation. The data in this Report is based entirely upon the United States Government’s own
documents.1 This Report provides a window into the Government’s success detaining only those
that the President has called “the worst of the worst.”
Among the data revealed by this Report:
1. Fifty-five percent (55%) of the detainees are not determined to have committed any
hostile acts against the United States or its coalition allies.

2. Only 8% of the detainees were characterized as al Qaeda fighters. Of the remaining
detainees, 40% have no definitive connection with al Qaeda at all and 18% are have no definitive
affiliation with either al Qaeda or the Taliban.
3. The Government has detained numerous persons based on mere affiliations with a
large number of groups that in fact, are not on the Department of Homeland Security terrorist
watchlist. Moreover, the nexus between such a detainee and such organizations varies considerably.
Eight percent are detained because they are deemed “fighters for;” 30% considered “members of;” a
large majority – 60% -- are detained merely because they are “associated with” a group or groups the
Government asserts are terrorist organizations. For 2% of the prisoners their nexus to any terrorist
group is unidentified.
4. Only 5% of the detainees were captured by United States forces. 86% of the
detainees were arrested by either Pakistan or the Northern Alliance and turned over to United States
custody.
to read the rest of this article   click to show 

<b>If you re-read politicophile's comments in the context of the contradictions between the statements of Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld. as to the circumstances of the capture of the Guantanmo detainees, and the offenses that these American leaders accused them of, vs. the documentation that the opposite of what the leaders said about the majority of the detainees is probably true, do politicophile's assumptions and opinions speak to the core problem of Guantanamo's existence, which has to do with a lack of truthful justification for detaining most of the prisoners? Do the untruths told by US leaders, but accepted as truth by politicophile, still leave room for him to assess roachboy's OP, if most of the authors of the poetry are unjustly and illegally held....with no hope for the right to appear in front of an impartial judge in a timely manner, to hear the evidence against them, and then be afforded an opportunity to refute that evidence and offer evidence of their own, to the contrary of the US government's allegations against them?</b>
Now, Mojo, a month after the article written by P. Sabin Willett, titled "My Worst Moment As a Lawyer"...it's in the center of the above quote box, this "asshat", at the pentagon, attempted to stop Willett's pro bono work defending Gitmo detainees, with threats:
Quote:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...101698_pf.html
Unveiled Threats
A Bush appointee's crude gambit on detainees' legal rights

Friday, January 12, 2007; A18

MOST AMERICANS understand that legal representation for the accused is one of the core principles of the American way. Not, it seems, Cully Stimson, deputy assistant secretary of defense for detainee affairs. In a repellent interview yesterday with Federal News Radio, Mr. Stimson brought up, unprompted, the number of major U.S. law firms that have helped represent detainees at Guantanamo Bay.

"Actually you know I think the news story that you're really going to start seeing in the next couple of weeks is this: As a result of a FOIA [Freedom of Information Act] request through a major news organization, somebody asked, 'Who are the lawyers around this country representing detainees down there,' and you know what, it's shocking," he said.

Mr. Stimson proceeded to reel off the names of these firms, adding, "I think, quite honestly, when corporate CEOs see that those firms are representing the very terrorists who hit their bottom line back in 2001, those CEOs are going to make those law firms choose between representing terrorists or representing reputable firms, and I think that is going to have major play in the next few weeks. And we want to watch that play out."

Asked who was paying the firms, Mr. Stimson hinted of dark doings. "It's not clear, is it?" he said. "Some will maintain that they are doing it out of the goodness of their heart, that they're doing it pro bono, and I suspect they are; others are receiving monies from who knows where, and I'd be curious to have them explain that."

It might be only laughable that Mr. Stimson, during the interview, called Guantanamo "certainly, probably, the most transparent and open location in the world."

But it's offensive -- shocking, to use his word -- that Mr. Stimson, a lawyer, would argue that law firms are doing anything other than upholding the highest ethical traditions of the bar by taking on the most unpopular of defendants. It's shocking that he would seemingly encourage the firms' corporate clients to pressure them to drop this work. And it's shocking -- though perhaps not surprising -- that this is the person the administration has chosen to oversee detainee policy at Guantanamo.
....and just this week, this was reported:
Quote:

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/world/story/38773.html
* posted on Sunday, June 15, 2008

By Tom Lasseter | McClatchy Newspapers

GARDEZ, Afghanistan — The militants crept up behind Mohammed Akhtiar as he squatted at the spigot to wash his hands before evening prayers at the Guantanamo Bay detention camp.

They shouted "Allahu Akbar" — God is great — as one of them hefted a metal mop squeezer into the air, slammed it into Akhtiar's head and sent thick streams of blood running down his face.

Akhtiar was among the more than 770 terrorism suspects imprisoned at the U.S. naval base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks. They are the men the Bush administration described as "the worst of the worst."

But Akhtiar was no terrorist. American troops had dragged him out of his Afghanistan home in 2003 and held him in Guantanamo for three years in the belief that he was an insurgent involved in rocket attacks on U.S. forces. The Islamic radicals in Guantanamo's Camp Four who hissed "infidel" and spat at Akhtiar, however, knew something his captors didn't: The U.S. government had the wrong guy......
....and this:...he wasn't Taliban until the US sent him to Gitmo:
Quote:

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/259/story/38779.html
* Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008
Wrongly jailed detainees found militancy at Guantanamo
More on this Story

Mohammed Naim Farouq is now considered a significant Taliban leader in his region after his release from Guantanamo. | View larger image
By Tom Lasseter | McClatchy Newspapers
So what are you upset about, Mojo...what are you defending? Are these reports just invented to embarrass and sabotage the noble and honest leaders, Bush and Cheney?

Mojo_PeiPei 06-17-2008 08:41 AM

Host it's clearly not me who is "not getting it". Your hatred for Bush has completely blinded you to the logical and obvious answer concerning Gitmo.

The Supreme Court has ruled on Gitmo, like in the past they are upholding the detentions so long as the prisoners have a chance to challenge their detentions. That is the whole basis of Hamdi v. Rumsfeld, where the detentions and tribunals were upheld. Not only that but they said, albeit narrowly, that the government, or in this case Boogeyman Bush was authorized by the "Authorization for Use of Military Force".

You catch that Host, the Supreme Court upheld a lower courts opinion that the AUMF from 9-19-2001 gave the President authority!

For the record I'm not upset, I'm merely confounded how people here cannot come to terms with this. Nor am I defending everything the administration has done in regards to Gitmo. But by and large I do not have a problem with the operation, so long as the SC's decision is followed and the men can challenge their status.

Willravel 06-17-2008 08:52 AM

There's nothing logical about torture, as anyone involved in psychology can verify that torture cannot produce reliable intel. There's nothing logical about holding people without trial, as it means spending money punishing people who are likely innocent (if they were guilty, they'd be able to try them). There's nothing logical about making prisoners do a human pyramid naked. surrounded by

dc_dux 06-17-2008 08:55 AM

Mojo:

In Hamdi v Rumsfeld, the Court struck down the provisions of the Detainee Treatment Act's military commissions because they did not provide detainees the rights comparable to UCMJ or Genenva Conventions.

The latest decision, Boumediene v. Bush, went further and struck down the provisions of the Military Commissions Act and affirmed that detainees have the right to challenge their confinement in federal courts through habeas filing.

And yet all of that ignores the fact that many of the detainees (hundreds?) should never have been there in the first place.....they were not "terrorists" or even alleged terrorists, they did not attack US forces in Afghanistan or Iraq.....they got caught up in the sweep and held for 4+ years w/o any cause. I dont understand how anyone can justify that.

dksuddeth 06-17-2008 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dc_dux
Mojo:

In Hamdi v Rumsfeld, the Court struck down the provisions of the Detainee Treatment Act's military commissions because they did not provide detainees the rights comparable to UCMJ or Genenva Conventions.

The latest decision went further and struck down the provisions of the Military Commissions Act and affirmed that detainees have the right to challenge their confinement in federal courts through habeas filing.

And yet all of that ignores that many of the detainees (hundreds?) should never have been there in the first place.....they were not "terrorists", they did not attack US forces in Afghanistan or Iraq.....they got caught up in the sweep and held for 4+ years w/o any justification.

QFT!!!

If these 'detainees' had been picked up in combat, it could easily be accepted that gitmo is the place for them, however, that did not happen with most or even all of these people. The 'right' to plead their case belongs to them to determine their status.

host 06-17-2008 09:09 AM

I show you all their intentionally misleading statements (i.e. ..."lies")describing who they've detained at Gitmo....instead of trying to defend the statements linked to whitehouse.gov pages..for you to verify, you post, "Host, you hate Bush"..... If my opinion is challenged, I counter the points in the challenge. This is all part of the "grab more power via playing the fear card"....how many cities are we gonna lose, Newt? http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwa...6/16/gingrich/ ....it's getting old, cost us lots of lives, lots of money...in an intentional campaign of deception designed to control us....nothing to defend about....certainly not by blaming me for who you think that I hate....

dc_dux 06-17-2008 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mojo_PeiPei
....You catch that Host, the Supreme Court upheld a lower courts opinion that the AUMF from 9-19-2001 gave the President authority!

As to the claim that the AUMF gave the president authority to deny the most basic rights to detainees, here is what Stevens said in the majority opinion...:
Quote:

As to the statutory authorization, there is nothing in the Authorization for Use of Military Force (AUMF) "even hinting" at expanding the President's war powers beyond those enumerated in Art. 21. Instead, the AUMF, the UCMJ, and the DTA "at most acknowledge" the President's authority to convene military commissions only where justified by the exigencies of war, but still operating within the laws of war.
...as part of the decision to strike down parts of the Detainees Treatment act because its military commissions did not provide detainees the rights comparable to UCMJ or Genenva Conventions.

Willravel 06-17-2008 09:23 AM

Quote:

...huge numbers of detainees in U.S. custody weren't "captured fighting against the U.S." at all. Many were taken from their homes. Others were just snatched off the street while engaged in the most mundane activities. Still others were abducted while in airports or at work.
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2008/06/17/yoo/

host 06-17-2008 09:45 AM

will, they decided on an "offshore prison" they said was extra territorial....outside the jurisdiction of US courts. It's purpose was as a "fear prop"....designed to be filled with what Cheney called, "bad actors"....to be held up to us in all of the linked declarations inluded in my two posts back, post.
They reasoned that their fear card would be more effectively played if they could refer to hundreds of "terrorists captured on the battlefield".....and all of their elaborate "we'll provide the fear to justify the power grab", worked great for Bush and Cheney....so well that democratic leaders Rockefeller and Hoyer were reported on sunday in Wapo to be nearing a FISA "reform" compromise that will give the white house everything it demanded....electronic surveillance with no authorization by a judge based on examination of evidence to justify it.....probable cause. Mojo's side doesn't care if the whole fear presentation is contrived, false, or intended as a power grab. They know that moving toward government by unaccountable, "decider" executive will "make us safe"....we won't lose the city Newt is worried about losing....we just lose the entire country instead, served up, to the decider, by the legislative majority.....unless this 5 to 4 supreme court split is still there, to rule against the coming power grab laws, like the FISA "reform".

Mojo_PeiPei 06-17-2008 10:01 AM

From Duke Law:
Quote:

The key element of the Court’s statutory reasoning was that the AUMF was a sufficient authorization of battlefield detentions to satisfy § 4001(a), because the detention of enemies seized on the battlefield was sufficiently related to the conduct of the military action contemplated by the authorization that it was an “exercise of ‘necessary and appropriate force.’”
Also I do believe your representation of Stevens as being in the majority is 100% wrong, as the decision was held in plurality with O' Connor writing the opinion with Rehnquist, Breyer, and Kennedy; Souter and Ginsberg ruling concurrently against the detention but stating Hamdi has the right to challenge his detention; and <gasp> the evil conservatives Scalia, Thomas, and your boy Stevens dissenting.

Quote:

In determining that the AUMF was an Act of Congress sufficient to satisfy § 4001(a), the plurality limited the holding to the facts before it, and limited the justification for such detention to the sole objective of preventing an enemy combatant from returning to the battlefield, and then only so long as there continued to be “active hostilities.” While the government argued that by its nature, it is difficult to predict the end of hostilities, the Court stated that the possibility of perpetual detention was troubling.
The court was troubled by the very questions everyone here poses, and I agree with. The issue is however, and the court recognized it, is congress gave authority for force and troops are still in active combat in Afghanistan.

http://www.law.duke.edu/publiclaw/su...entary/hamvrum

Yakk 06-17-2008 01:42 PM

So just to be clear -- I am right, and this law is a "fuck you" to the citizens of every other nation on the entire Earth?

I'm looking for help here to make a concrete, real-world decision. The election could be triggered literally any day now. I can support a party that will continue supplying about 20% of all front-line combat troops in Afghanistan, in an alliance with the USA, or I can support a party that will withdraw all military involvement in Afghanistan as soon as possible.

Who will win is completely up in the air.

Am I right in thinking that it is the position of the US executive, and now US Senate, that at the whim of the US president any person in the entire world can be kidnapped, moved to a secret location, held in secret, interrogated using whatever techniques the US president chooses, have no ability to contest their incarceration for 5+ years, and this is all perfectly OK, legal, official, up-and-up, every-day, hum-drum acts, as far as the USA is concerned?

Because, that isn't the kind of thing I want to be in alliance with.

So, someone please, tell me where my error is.

Does the USA find kidnapping people, detaining them for 5+ years without any kind of real judicial review, "interrogating" them using techniques that are banned under the Geneva convention (chosen in secret), as acceptable, so long as the person in question does not hold a US citizenship? Is that the official position of your government?

dc_dux 06-17-2008 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mojo_PeiPei
From Duke Law:

Also I do believe your representation of Stevens as being in the majority is 100% wrong, as the decision was held in plurality with O' Connor writing the opinion with Rehnquist, Breyer, and Kennedy; Souter and Ginsberg ruling concurrently against the detention but stating Hamdi has the right to challenge his detention; and <gasp> the evil conservatives Scalia, Thomas, and your boy Stevens dissenting.

The court was troubled by the very questions everyone here poses, and I agree with. The issue is however, and the court recognized it, is congress gave authority for force and troops are still in active combat in Afghanistan.

http://www.law.duke.edu/publiclaw/su...entary/hamvrum

Mojo....i think the confusion is in the case under discussion....Hamdi or Hamdan

Stevens wrote the majority opinion in Hamdan v Rumsfeld...joined by Kennedy, Suter, Ginsburg and Breyer.... Scalia, Thomas and Alito, the "evil conservatives" dissented:
The Supreme Court, in a 5-to-3 decision authored by Justice John Paul Stevens, held that neither an act of Congress nor the inherent powers of the Executive laid out in the Constitution expressly authorized the sort of military commission at issue in this case. Absent that express authorization, the commission had to comply with the ordinary laws of the United States and the laws of war. The Geneva Convention, as a part of the ordinary laws of war, could therefore be enforced by the Supreme Court, along with the statutory Uniform Code of Military Justice.

Steven's full judgement including the statement I post above, re: the AUMF as it applies to the rights of detainees.
This was in 2006, two years after the Hamdi v Rumsfeld case to which you refer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yakk
So just to be clear -- I am right, and this law is a "fuck you" to the citizens of every other nation on the entire Earth?
....
Am I right in thinking that it is the position of the US executive, and now US Senate, that at the whim of the US president any person in the entire world can be kidnapped, moved to a secret location, held in secret, interrogated using whatever techniques the US president chooses, have no ability to contest their incarceration for 5+ years, and this is all perfectly OK, legal, official, up-and-up, every-day, hum-drum acts, as far as the USA is concerned?

Yaak....you are right in your assessment of the position of the President and the Senate (Republican majority at the time)....they tried to pass a kangaroo "military court" off as providing detainees with equal rights under the law.

But the Supreme Court is the ultimate decider and the latest ruling is a "fuck you" to Bush.....but for the record Supreme Court justices never say fuck you...at least in their formal opinions.

However, the larger problem still persists.....US troops can pretty grab and detain anyone that want off the streets of Baghdad or Kabul and hold them with no charges or just cause in the name of "fighting terrorism."

Yakk 06-17-2008 06:03 PM

Did the supreme court free the non-American citizens imprisioned on nothing but the say of the President for 5 years without access to habius corpus? Did it state that those who kept them imprisioned over those 5 years should be punished for their action?

As far as I can tell, the answer is "no" and "no".

I'm sorry, kidnapping someone, "interrogating" them with arbitrary classified torture mechanisms, and holding them for 5 years with no option to contest the imprisonment in anything that isn't a kangaroo court, is already a "fuck you".

If I read the ruling right, the Supreme Court simply said "the kangaroo court you produced isn't good enough. Feel free to make up a new kangaroo court, hold them, torture them as much as you want, and then come back to us in a few more years and we'll see if that new kangaroo court is enough."

What the ruling doesn't say is "you have failed to uphold habeus corpus, and as such you may not legally hold these individuals any more". Or declared that individuals who held these individuals illegally are guilty of kidnapping, illegal imprisonment, etc. Or said "Given the extreme delays, you have 1 week to place these people in front of a civilian judge, and that judge has the power to release these individuals if insufficient evidence for imprisonment is presented within 2 months."

Those would be a "no, this isn't right, you aren't allowed to do it, stop it". Instead, it appears like it is being treated as a minor procedural error.

dc_dux 06-17-2008 07:42 PM

Yakk....your interpretation as a non-American is a fair and reasonable interpretation. I cant argue with it at all.

Which might explain, in part, why Bush is considered the world leader second least likely to do the right thing regarding world affairs.

In a recent World Public Opinion poll of 20 nations, a majority of citizens in only two of those countries (Nigeria and India) have “a lot” or “some” confidence that President Bush will do “the right thing regarding world affairs.” Bush ranks below Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad but just edges out Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf as the world's worst leader.
http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pi...n08_graph1.jpg

World Public Opinion Poll
Which might also explain why most of Bush's "war on terrorism" has been a successful recruiting tool for terrorist.

Willravel 06-17-2008 10:09 PM

Quote:

The U.S. military hid the locations of suspected terrorist detainees and concealed harsh treatment to avoid the scrutiny of the International Committee of the Red Cross, according to documents that a Senate committee released Tuesday.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/0..._n_107702.html

This is just more evidence that the GWOT is a massive human rights disaster. In trying to "fight terrorism" we have become the antagonists to all that is moral and just.


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