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My turn. Our POW men and women arent treated as saints. I dont care if we torture POW we collect. It wont cost me a wink of sleep. Morals? Yes I have problems with torture as a moral standpoint. Yet I also have a problem knowing that our people are being subjected to unknown terrors.
Will is right. Psychology. We may get some things out of some people but many wont talk and would rather die. Now... After spending a good bit of time reading the roaring debate of the past few pages of posts I would like to provide a very broad statement. People who live in glass houses should NOT throw rocks. Anyone can review posting histories for a month or more and narrow it down to how long it is between our posts and from that put together how much time anyone of us spends on TFP vs. how much time we DO NOT spend posting here... I know, ive done it. People should be careful what they claim. This is NOT a threat this is a simple observation. I do not like it when people toot a horn they do not know how to play. I feel people should be careful what and who they believe. There are some seriously heated feelings going on in this thread. All I am saying is simply this. Try not to get worked up about some things. They may not be what they seem. :) |
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I feel like i missed something you were referring to in here. I don't wanna cal anyone out, just curious as to what sparked this comment. PM if you wish, or just post it. Anyway, i do have a problem wtih the "eye for eye" mentality...namely, the world will soon be blind. I feel like we're heading that way now, actually |
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I apologize for any self proclaimed victory I may have depicted; it was not my intention. Certain people should be held accountable for making an argument while refusing their antithesis'. I will be more patient tomorrow, but I am not sorry for pointing this out.
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_God_, I am left to wonder: when are you going to post about the thread topic? Or will it just be threadjacks? |
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my my this thread certainly tanked, didn't it?
it's a shame because this is an important topic. i suppose that is among the points of a troll, really--to reduce questions political to lint personal, distract, divert, etc. i have thought quite a bit about this one over the weekend. i think there are several underlying reason why this thread generated such heat--the official sanctioning of torture, the rewriting of the geneva conventions, the granting of immunity from prosecution for war crimes of a cadre that would have you think that americans cannot commit war crimes a priori, the legitmation of military kangaroo courts, the validation of the bushleague legal black hole, the expansion of the notion of enemy to potentially include american citizens, the suspension of habeas corpus...the fact that congress bent over and approved this...the stacking of the courts with far right activists appointed in the name of thwarting "activism"---problems with the last two presidential elections that remain unresolved.... years of fiasco international and domestic... it seems that public protest has gone away: it is almost like the masses of people who turned out in opposition to the iraq debacle around the coutry actually believed the administration would take note of them, would listen, as if they had been chumped by the illusion that cowboy george is a decent fellow--and when the war unfolded anyway, people were disappointed then depressed (myself among them)---and we went home. and we stayed home. they are still at home. we are all still sitting at home. all this within a system that allows for the exercize of political freedom one day every 2 years. after that pesky, mediated freedom business is out of the way, we the people are stuck with whatever the more powerfully organized and well-funded political machine manages to put into place. and there is no way to get rid of the results--no mechanism for a vote of no confidence, no way to bring down an administration no matter how incompetent of disengenuous they may be. the result of our charade of political freedom is two year blocks of impunity. better still, we self-evidently are living through an extended transitional phase in the social and political organization of capitalism. this adds even more fine treats to the pile: a radically polarized class society in which there is no functional discourse of class conflict--this polarization effects education, it squanders lives and potentials---it is expressed in the development of a prison-industrial complex for management of the poor, increased violence, increased repression---it is predicated on economic injustice and even manages to generate a certain level of flinstone contempt for the notions of economic and social justice. the reorganization of capitalism that has been unfolding over the past 20 years has created fundamental problems for the american system of social reproduction that have not been addressed and that cannot be addressed within the present ideological climate of nationalist fantasy and denial. so it feels sometimes like we are crash test dummies in a small car heading at high speed toward a very big wall. so people appear to be at the least worried and at the worse afraid. so we watch tv conservative ideology traffics in fear, directing it toward the illusion of manly men doing manly things as if the idiocy behind this was not only other than a problem, but a source of reassurance. we watch this on tv. and there is no coherent oppositional politics, fantasies of the right notwithstanding. we learn this on television. so we express our discontent in spaces that are available like this. but we all know that what we say in spaces like this is mostly therapeutic. a little playground in which we all get to try out rationalizations that enable us to get out of bed in the morning. a pseudo-public sphere of pseudo-public debate. within the exercize in sublimation that participation in such pseudo-public debates in a pseudo-public sphere, the bigger picture repeats itself. the confusion comes in the assumption that these repetitions are meaningful. they are meaningful in a therapeutic sense, but not in a political sense. this brings me back to this thread: i am not surprised or shocked or even particularly disturbed by how this has gone. i saw nothing surprising in ustwo's selective reading strategies--i would even applaud his frankness--but nothing in it was surprising, was it? thing is that while ustwo's refusal to take seriously positions directed against his extreme right politics resembles aspects of the bigger picture, it is not that bigger picture. and freezing him out of the board does not change that bigger picture. he is just a guy. a person like the rest of us who has to work out ways to manage, to rationalise what is happening around him, who has to work out systems of thinking that enable him to get out of bed in the morning and act as though his life is meaningful-----just as the rest of us are. this is not the bigger picture. the bigger picture is overwhelming. if you add up the elements of it and really think about what they mean, it can be paralyzing. powerlessness is not good. denial is a coping mechanism. dissent is a coping mechanism. between them are siginificant differences in types of information processed, logic and the willingness to spell out that logic. but in a pseudo-public sphere, the line between political argument and coping mechanism is thin indeed. let's try to remember that. i would prefer better debates. i would also prefer to operate without illusions. back to the question of torture on the way out: the united states has practiced torture as a matter of routine policy for at least 50 years. the united states has trained generations of torturers at lovely institutions like the school of the americas. the united states has sanctioned torture in other places: the united states endorsed pinochet, the united states endorsed the argentine military regime, the united states supported the shah of iran--on and on and on. have you seen "dogville"? von trier is right. |
Great point.
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Please...then TEACH Me.... |
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long long time |
Was this bill properly ratified? If my understanding is correct this bill should of been pocket vetoed. Congress passed it on the 28th of September, adjourned the 29th, and Bush signed on the 17th of October. This makes over 10 working days of no action while congress was adjourned which is a veto by default.
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Congress is actually on a recess. Adjournment most commonly refers to "Adjournment Sine Die" which happens at the end of each two-year session of Congress.
The current 109th Congress will likely return after the election (particularly if the Repubs lose the House and want one last chance to try to push their legislative agenda before they become the minority) and adjourn sometime in December. |
While I am not an American, I have been watching American politics with inscreasing fascination for years. I watched global outrage for the war in iraq, which many called illegal, and still do. I watched american citizens allow numerous encroachments on their freedoms; and the only true resistance to this gradual erosion i saw was the patriot act, which was pushed through anyways. Now an essential cornerstone of personal liberty has simply been removed- habeus corpus.
Don't you guys care, as citizens of a free and democratic country, that at any time, for any reason, a government offical could simply take you away to prison and leave you there to rot for the rest of your life? That they can also torture you if they feel like it? That they can take you to court, and prosecute you using classified evidence that you're not allowed to see? At this moment, It is not out of their bounds to sentence you to death for reasons they see fit to proscribe. I find this extremely disturbing, and it makes me glad that I live in Canada, at least for the moment. I don't understand why there haven't been protests in the streets; or any sign of dissatisfaction at all. Is all that you can do is watch and mourn it's loss? edit- found a video of Keith Olbermann saying it very eloquently. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIe2fPmGFYw |
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I suggest you direct this question towards the rightwingers. That should give you your answer... ...specifically Ustwo, he supports torture. |
When I was younger, I knew I lived in the best country the world had to offer. I felt great joy in my luck for being born here, and pride in the accomplishments of my elders. I looked at all the wonderful things around me, and understood how extremely fortunate I was in comparison to virtually anyone outside the United States, in terms of freedoms and material comforts.
This has changed, as I think of my own children growing up. I am virtually powerless to halt the revisions taking place right now. I can only vote my conscience and hope for the best, knowing deep inside these hopes are impotent in the face of fear and hatred surrounding them. Over the last five years I have looked to the future with a mixture of dispair and frustration, as this country I truly love becomes something I do not like. One is forced in this climate to look at a larger picture, and in some ways compromise principles in hopes of stopping some measure of the degradation so obvious , and painful. I have never been a Democrat, and in fact spent the majority of my life as a Republican, Even up to the first incarnation of a Bush Presidency....I can no longer support what that party represents, as it seems to be Killing the American Spirit I grew up with. I only Pray I am not forced to vote for Hillary....But I cant see her damaging our counrty in the way Bush has. /End Rant |
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End Dogpile |
http://angryflower.com/takkid.gif
I love how bob the angry flower always manages to state exactly how I feel |
I love how tough interegation tactics have been hijacked and are now considered torture. It breaks my heart that this country has become so pussified
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NCB: The US has considered waterboarding to be torture in the past. The rules allowing it are what's new here, not the condemnation of the tactic.
Also, I should warn you that talking about "pussification" makes you come off as pretty immature. Edit: I was way too late. |
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Well, here's a description:
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I don't think we should be inflicting physical or psychological trauma if we can help it. I think legalizing and routinizing it is certainly a misstep. I do think it might be possible to make a coherent case for the technique, but a priori dismissal of any dissent as "pussified" is basically meaningless. |
Wikipedia forgot about death as being a possible physical effect of waterboarding.
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'accidental' death
yep...great stuff. I'm so proud of my country lately. This combined with the suspension of habeas corpus...just nothin but good stuff lately. |
Just saw this elsewhere...looks like the legal battle is cranking up over the military trial courts and denial of legal council.
The first rule of Rendition Club is - you do not talk about Rendition Club. The second rule of Rendition Club - you do not talk about Rendition Club. The third rule of Rendition Club - you do not talk about Rendition Club. link. |
When it'll work you can count on it being done regardless of legal status. That they're legislating this seems like baby steps to the tune of 'You can trust me, we're taking the legal route.' Besides, it's pretty well established torture is unreliable. Also, given what we do do, saying torture so much rather cheapens the term.
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http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4...36913&hl=en
Search at 1hour and 29 minutes in the movie above. You will see how the confessions of Khalid Mohammed were obtained : "Whatever we need to do to get the truth out" "Block his breathing with an artificial respiration machine" Also there is the mental torture : torturing his children in front of him or just threaten him that his children will be tortured. |
Precisely correct, pai mei. And it's reasonable to deduce that, since his testimony was derived from torture, and we've already established that torture is not by any means a reliable source of information, that his testimony is meaningless.
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While I have no doubt that this man has done many evil things I also have to say I do not believe everything that he has confessed to. I think he is trying to make himself look bigger than he really was. One thing that should be considered is that if he were being tried in US civilian courts the judge would probably throw out the entire case and all of this would be inadmissible.
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you would have thought that the experience of the inquisition would have been enough on its own to dissuade folk from using torture to extract "confessions"---the meaning of which is generally "stop what you are doing to me...no, really. stop it. stop it now. here's what you want me to say..."
you would have thought that the debacle the french experienced and in some ways are still experiencing in algeria would have been enough... you would have thought that any number of instances of this circular relation between torture and "information" gathered would have ruled out its use. but then again, you also would have thought that basic ethics would have had the same effect. apparently, any relation to the past as it might bear on the present, and any relation to ethics as they might limit actions are all out the fucking window when a neo-fascist regime understands that heimat to be threatened by a Contaminant.... |
On the positive side, there are bills in the new House and Senate to restore the rule of law - "No reason why we can’t fight the War on Terror and live up to our obligations under US law and the Geneva Conventions"
Both the “Restoring the Constitution Act” and the “Habeas Corpus Restoration Act” will bring credibility to the process of detaining terrorist suspects by placing it within a legal framework. This includes: restoring habeas corpus, narrowing the definition of “unlawful enemy combatant” as defined in the Military Commissions Act, prohibiting evidence obtained under coercion, and affirming the Geneva Conventions.... |
yeah roach,
but that presupposes, even if its devil's advocate style for the sake of argument, that the primary function of current torture techniques is to gain information. i have to assume that the military shrinks are as competent as any, on average; therefore i have to deduce that they are not, in fact, after information. i can only surmise that they seek to humiliate and instill fear into our adversaries. perhaps develop scapegoats for the public eye whilst our military covertly operates on other premises and angles. i can not believe that the people who are actually working the various policies being enacted actually think this bullshit works. i don't like it, but i do think that its as much "hey - we're as badass and coldhearted as you fuckers are. our citizens may live nice little kotex padded lives, but our guardians are real fuckers." as anything else. even that i could deal with on a certain level, as it would open the door for useful discussion and debate that is based in reality. the fantasy debates are just tedious. |
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Sweet land of liberty, Of thee I sing; Land where my fathers died, Land of the pilgrims' pride, From every mountainside Let freedom ring! SCOTUS Majority Opinion, Issued June 12, 2008: Quote:
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finally.
something good happened to put a term on this "kafkaesque nightmare" (i know i just saw this phrase somewhere...) that the bush people had put into motion, the war on due process which they called the "war on terror" Quote:
this ruling made me happier than the celtics did last night. it is an indication of the extent to which the climate of hysteria the right relied upon to rationalize its policies has crumbled. the fact of it is a reminder of how dangerous such hysteria really is. |
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Amazing. Even Bush's personally-installed puppet court is giving him a low approval rating.
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Yeah, Bush hasn't even nominated a quorum. He's put 2 judges on SCOTUS, Roberts and Alito.
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Criminy. I meant it as a sort of ironic joke. It may not have been funny, I admit, but y'all need to lighten up.
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well, i stand by the claim that the problem was the climate of hysteria generated by the idiot response to 9/11/2001 and maintained for political purposes through 2005 at the least. you can still see the traces of the division between those who think within that frame and those who dont in the distance separating scalia's minority opinion from the majority opinion.
to take this a step further: i see nothing automatic in the american system of checks--i see this decision as a reflection of the dissolution of the environment they worked to maintain. collective hysteria remains a huge and frightening possibility, a permanent problem. and the contemporary ideological apparatus--which we call "the media"--makes such hysteria a constant possibility. |
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having read only part of scalia and roberts dissent, i'm hugely dissapointed that somebody who calls themselves strict constructionists and originalists feel that safety overrides freedom. totally disgusted with the 4 dissenters right now.
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Former British PM, John Major, is objecting to a revision in law that would extend imprisonment without charges or a hearing before a magistrate from the current 28 days max., to 42 days. In the US, prisoners have been held for as long as 6-1/2 years, under these same circumstances...no hearing, no charges, and four SCOTUS justices appointed by "conservative" US presidents, and the current president himself, view it as just and AMERICAN... it's not....it is a failure of the president to honor his oath to "uphold and defend the Consitution", and of these four judges, as well..... Quote:
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I thought that it was for freedom from arbitrary imprisonment by executive whim? Quote:
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The Supreme Court ruling on BOUMEDIENE v. BUSH basically nullifies legislation passed by Congress and signed by Bush in October 2006 for Guantánamo detainees. There were 11 Democratic Senators and about 32 Democratic members of the House who voted in favor of the legislation. The legislation gave detainees access to be heard through modification to the Uniform Code of Military Justice.
Take note, you may not hear this from the experts, but that all this has accomplished is that in the future captured military terrorist combatants will not be housed in a manner where they will gain access to American courts, they will be turned over to our allies. They will be subject to treatment and the laws of those countries. If Democrats want to create new legislation that will give unreasonable rights to captured military combatants we may end up attempting to execute a war in an impossible set of circumstances. I agree with Scalia's dissenting opinion, this is not good for America. |
the "war on terror" is only a war in a metaphorical sense, dont you think?
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Turning over such alleged suspects to "allies" with harsher laws of prisoner treatment than ours...or extraordinary rendition....is ILLEGAL under US treaty obligations. (There is circumstantial evidence that Bush has already done this...making him, if those allegations are ever proven correct, a war criminal). The Democrats dont need to create new legislation...on this issue, they have the Constitution on their side. |
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But now that it has been determined that the executive cannot wield such authority, constitutionally, are you saying that "our security" was not the driving reason for transferring that authority to the executive? ...and now, you're saying..."we'll show you!!"...If the president cannot have that authority, US LEO and military will transfer that determination to another sovereign entity, after they disregard the law and instructed SOP, when they detain someone....is that your warning to us, ace? ace....I don't understand what you are talking about. Who is to determine this "special" class of "detainees" who do not have the same rights as anyone else taken into custody by sworn American LEO or military? The president, and certainly no LEO or member of the military have that authority, according to the Constitution. Only a presumably impartial judge can make such a determination....isn't any other arrangement or advocacy, anti-constitutional, i.e, UN-American? Other than those unalienable rights....the right to have a timely hearing of the charges and to present a defense, before an impartial judge, being one of them....what would be the reason to Fight....fight for what, ace....what are you advocating fighting your "war on terror", for, since it is not to preserve unalienable rights....what is it that you are advocating the preservation of....an executive with dictatorial power...the power of arbitrary and unjudicated imprisonment? Is that even an American, or an Anglo-Saxon concept, ace? |
the rationale for scalia's dissent is basically the same as that behind the bush people's "war on terror"--a state of exception which "requires" the suspension of usual processes and legalities in favor of a dictatorial-style executive. a state of exception need not be a war--it can be and usually is a sense of political crisis--but crisis can be generated from any number of sectors for any number of ends. it seems to me that first there is a real question of what a "war on terror" means and in what way it can possibly be understood as a war in anything remotely like a conventional sense. if you accept that it is a state of "crisis" covered over by metaphors of war, then the logic of scalia's dissent collapses, because it moved in the opposite direction, assuming that the "war on terror" is somehow understandable as a way in a conventional sense.
this is another way of making the point i was making earlier: what has changed really is the sense of "crisis" or hysteria--which in this case came to the same thing--the political implosion of the bush administration has taken down the hold of its gloss on a "crisis"/hysteria as "war"--it no longer has purchase--and i think that loosening of an ambient sense of "crisis" opened the space for this ruling. |
I think it's really difficult to maintain a climate of mindless fear-based hysteria, while also promoting a climate of mindless security-based consumerism.
Duh. |
orwell had this one sorted, you see:
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well, we're not dealing with Orwell, lol...
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Yes, we should. Although not at the expense of our soldier's lives. Gabriel from Swordfish said it best and I agree with him. Quote:
And on topic - good. Torture might get info out of the terrorists that hey wouldn't divulge otherwise. P.S. This particular war I don't agree with, but the methodology should be applied. |
You think they're not thinking the same thing?
Where does it end? Or is it just the principle of the thing? |
It ends when the other side thinks about whether it is worth losing more of their population.
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What population? They are not representing a population.
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Right. I'm talking about a war in general. Country vs country.
For this "war on terror", I posted a good quote from Swordfish. We do what they do, only 10 times harder. The thing is that I don't see the US winning anything any time in the future. I spoke to a friend of mine few days ago who is in Afghanistan right now. They're losing. |
this is the logic that resulted in the french loosing in algeria.
fighting an enemy they could not find, they were led by this thinking to effectively declare war on the entire algerian population, beginning with the intelligensia, which was defined in both a strict-ish and pol-pot kinda way at the same time. in the end, they created mass support for the relatively small organization that they initially were fighting (the fln) and made it into what it purported to be from the outset (but wasn't)---it's not a viable general logic. it only works in conventional nation-state vs nation-state conflicts--and even then, it's of limited utility. there is a therapeutic function for the folk who get to make such statements, but that usually stands on it's head as well. unless you want to treat the entire world as rome did carthage--but hey, why stop there? the enemy is within as well--lay waste to them as sow their spaces with salt. but what happens if that action generates more enemies within? and what happens when you yourself begin to wonder what the fuck you're doing? it only sounds coherent, what you are arguing. |
Actually, that's why I said that I don't like and don't support this war. Terrorism is everywhere and it is not likely to end.
It makes as much as sense as the war on drugs. |
Not likely to end. Yes. I think people are finally accepting this.
With acceptance again, comes the capacity for rationale...even if it is of a dejected and acquiescent sort. But at least you can move forward from that. Yep, the rest of the world finally caught up with 'merica. |
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Did you read the opinions? Did you look at the law in question? There are controls in place. Controls requested by the courts and legislation passed by Congress with some bi-lateral support. Quote:
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After the SCOTUS ruled in 2004 (Rasul v. Bush) that detainees have the right to challenge the legality of their detention in US courts (applications for habeas corpus), he got the Republican Congress to enact the Detainee Treatment Act in 2005, which officially stripped the federal courts of any authority to hear detainee cases. The SCOTUS overturned that law in 2006 (Humdi v Rumsfeld) when it ruled that military commissions at Guantanamo Bay violated the laws of war and international conventions. ...which resulted in another attempt to circumvent the Constitution and international conventions with the Military Commissions Act, that in effect was overturned by the most recent decision (Boumediene v. Bush). The court ruled that detainees have rights under the Constitution to challenge their detention in civilian courts. "The laws and Constitution are designed to survive, and remain in force, in extraordinary times. Liberty and security can be reconciled; and in our system, they are reconciled within the framework of law. The Framers decided that habeas corpus, a right of first importance, must be a part of that framework, part of that law." - Justice Anthony Kennedy in the majority opinon Quote:
"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" - attributed to Benjamin Franklin |
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I cannot believe the suggestion that Hiroshima and Nagasaki were America's greatest wartime atrocities--and should not have happened--is so open for debate. They were monstrous acts. Deplorable. America's greatest failure of humanity. It's that simple. To suggest wanton cruelty in retaliation to an enemy, especially where civilians are concerted, and simply in the name of war, overlooks a basic humanism that, when lost, forever changes the face of a nation. A no-holds-barred approach to war, especially in this day and age of communication and community has no place in the world. That America must do this suggests its power is waning. The failures of the American industrial complex isn't the worst of the nation's problems, yet it is the most indicative sign of an overall misguidance and loss of ingenuity. |
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Of course now we get to capture them and allow them to try and convince institutions that wouldn't exist, if they had their wishes, that they were just at the wrong place at the wrong time. I'm sure a few will succeed too. |
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Article 1, section 9The detainees held at Gitmo are part of neither a rebellion nor an invasion. In fact, a large number of the detainees were guilty of nothing but being caught up in a sweep or turned in by a neighbor for cash....and after as many as 4+ years in Gitmo w/o being charge, w/o access to legal counsel, family or anyone, had no rights at all. An eight-month McClatchy investigation in 11 countries on three continents has found that.... according to several officials, perhaps hundreds — whom the U.S. has wrongfully imprisoned in Afghanistan, Cuba and elsewhere on the basis of flimsy or fabricated evidence, old personal scores or bounty payments. Quote:
It was Bush/Gonzales who unilatterly determined a new definition of persons who are not guaranteed habeaus under Article I, Sect 9 or the Geneva Conventions. (see below #174- Gonzales explanation at Judiciary Commttee hearing) The courts have rejected that on three separate occasions now. Quote:
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ace, I've seen you question the usage of the word "unilateral" several times now.
Here's a hint: when new law is signed into effect in a signing statement that Congress never saw, that's unilateral. When new policies and rules are implemented top-down straight out of the Commander In Chief's office, that's unilateral. I know you'd like to have Congress (sorry: "the Democratic Congress"--never mind that the majority is razor-slim) be complicit in this, but the fact is, they're not. They're no angels, but in this, the Executive Branch acted utterly alone. What REALLY scares me is, this ruling was 5 to 4. One more right-winger on the SCOTUS, and this shit would be constitutional. |
You can watch Gonzales attempt to explain that habeaus is not a Constitutional right.
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We have a presidency that has acted like royalty or a dictatorship, is my point. The SCOTUS, by an alarmingly slim margin of 5 to 4, brought them somewhat to heel, but the damage has WAY been done.
How DO you feel about presidential signing statements that significantly amend or create exceptions to newly-signed law, ace? Or about policies about prisoner treatment (as just one example) that fly in the face of morality, convention and treaty, which got created in the Oval Office without any oversight from anybody? Doesn't that seem a bit unilateral? Do you have a problem with those things? I certainly do, but I'd love to hear your reasoning if you don't. The question of whether you think those things actually happened is a DIFFERENT question. I'm less interested in your answer to that other question, but I suppose if you have to give your answer to it, feel free. Please do NOT use that second question as a means to not have to answer the first one. Not that you'd ever be that intellectually dishonest--I'm just pointing out one mistake you might make if you weren't paying attention. ;) |
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Right, well, you dodged the question after all.
There's NO STRUCTURE for reviewing presidential signing statements. They were mere comments before Bush started changing law in them. They're utterly extraconstitutional. And technically, they carry no legal weight, except that Bush authorized military action based on them. So now you've got the US military following laws that aren't laws except the boss says they are, and there's no procedure for any other branch of government to balance it. THAT'S what we mean by unilateral. Now: I know in aceland, that never happened. My question for you is, IF IT DID, you would you have a problem with that? |
So, the USA has passed a law saying "we feel it is right that the US President can kidnap and torture citizens of every other nation on the entire planet at a whim. This power should not be subject to any kind of judicial review, reasonable process, or congressional review. To every citizen of every other nation of the entire world: fuck you."
I just wanted to see if I understood the meaning of this law. Did I miss anything important, or otherwise misunderstand? |
You forgot to say thank you.
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Now perhaps someone can help me make sure I am up to speed on this, but the latest supreme court ruling effectively upholds the detentions still, only it allows the detainee's to challenge their status, correct? Still the point of contention seems to be that people don't think the US military should be allowed to "arrest" people as illegal combatants. The catch with that issue is that there is no codified means of determining what makes one's status illegal, rather it is determined by a treaty one century old and what isn't codified in treaties such as geneva. Again, if the courts state the men are allowed to challenge their status, would that not mean that Habeas stands? If that is the case, which the SC's decision seems to point to, I would take that as a big example that the detentions at Guantanamo Bay are completely legal and not arbitrary... so long as they allow the challenges to status. I thought this might help, read the bold... Quote:
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"In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed..."
There's no asterisk that says "unless you're an 'enemy combatant'" in there. The person is only described as "the accused". And if you're not accused, then you're free to go. |
Do military personnel get tried by a civilian court? Besides I sure these men are not being tried in criminal proceedings in the same sense I were if I got a DUI or murdered somebody. They were picked up by the military, thusly they are regulated to tribunals. Do I need to dust off Ex Parte Quirin?
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My understanding of how this has played out: Bush first attempted to make the case that they had no rights under the Constitution because they were not being held on US soil and the US had no sovereignty over Gitmo (Cuba still maintains sovereignty). The USSC said NO....the US has jurisdiction over Gitmo (as a result of treaty w/Cuba) so non-combatants have rights. As a result of that decision, Bush brought the Republican Congress into the act. Then came the "military tribunals or commissions" as defined in the Detainee Treatment Act.....it did not provide the detainees with direct access to the federal courts, but only with access to a fair and impartial hearing to a tribunal constitutionally authorized by Congress and proceeding with certain due process guarantees comparable to the UCMJ or the terms of the Geneva Conventions. The USSC said NO again....and struck it down because it failed to meet that test of providing rights comparable to the UCMJ and the Geneva Conventions. So Bush and hs friends in Congress tried again with the Military Commissions Act. The USSC said NO for a third time and ruled that detainees have rights under the Constitution to challenge their detention in civilian courts...including the right to habeas corpus. And I would point readers again to the fact that a large number of the detainees (hundreds?) were not terrorists or enemy non-combatants or even guilty of anything at all but being caught up in a sweep or turned in by a neighbor for cash....and after as many as 4+ years in Gitmo w/o being charge, w/o access to legal counsel, family or anyone, had no virtually rights at all. An eight-month McClatchy investigation in 11 countries on three continents has found that.... according to several officials, perhaps hundreds — whom the U.S. has wrongfully imprisoned in Afghanistan, Cuba and elsewhere on the basis of flimsy or fabricated evidence, old personal scores or bounty payments.This is a very good and straight forward graphic on Detainees and the Rule of Law (pdf) added...on the issue of torture: The Senate Armed Services Committee is beginning hearings today to review the origins of Bush's policies regarding torture. ooops...I should say "enhanced interrogation techniques"...we all know that the US doesnt torture...because Bush/Cheney/Rice/Mukasey say we dont and since Bush has unilaterally defined "enhanced interrogation techniques" ....we should take their word for it? The Committee is still demanding the appearance of John Woo, the DoJ official who wrote the infamous "justification for torture" memo that has guided the Bush policy....torture is defined as resulting in death, organ failure or serious impairment of body functions"...anything else is acceptable. |
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You do know that this is what the court cases are about? Not about torture -- just "you haven't even STATED and PROVEN why these people are being held". The prisoners are completely arbitrarily. Some functionary said "keep this person in jail", and based off nothing but that they are in jail for an indefinite period. Quote:
* This being limited to non-US citizens is possibly true. Hence the "rest of the world: fuck you". Also note that the US holds that it has the right to invade other countries, kidnap people there, and do with them as they please. This isn't "other countries that are terrorist havens" -- it fucking happened in Italy, while one branch of the US government was tracking down someone with the help of the Italian government, another jumped in and kidnapped (while speaking openly over Company cell phones, idiots) someone. Quote:
Or am I in error? Has the US not bagged the heads of "bad people", made them form human periods, attached electrodes to the penis and balls of prisoners, and fucking photographed them and bragged about it? Has the US Senate not passed a bill saying "so long as you don't torture Americans, go ahead and make your own decisions about how far you can go Mr President. Do whatever you want. We place no limits on what you do to non-Americans"? Has the US Congress and Senate not sat idly by as the US executive branch has claimed the right to imprison without trial, without review, without access to law, any foreign individual that the US executive branch feels like imprisoning, for as long as the US executive branch feels like? So I say again: have I misread the "FUCK YOU" that the US government, the agent of the people, is sending the entire fucking world? I need to know. Elections are coming up, and there are various parties. Some want to continue supporting missions that help the US government, and not say "fuck you" to the US government. Others want to withdraw all help to the US government's military adventures abroad. You may or may not care -- but right now, Canadian troops are engaged in the hottest part of Afghanistan, with fatality rates that exceed any other military organization engaged in US-allied military adventures. Is the US saying "fuck you" to me? I have an election to prepare for. |
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Is this the condition, at the time of arrest....: Quote:
If the officials and their policies were above board, why the misleading statements from them, then the threats against their critics, then McClatcheys new "truth to power" reporting, just this week.....Mojo...they "arrest" the wrong effing people, and without swift hearings before an impartial judge in a civilian court, where the evidence can be examined, and the charges against the arrestee heard....and the arrestee given a chance to prevent his version, and produce any evidence he might have in his own defense....you get this embarassing, tragic, counter-productive, anti international law....EFFECTS...we show you, over and over, and over....and you still must be taking Bush/Cheney at their word, or you wouldn't have posted what you did...... From an old post, circa Dec., 2006: Quote:
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Host it's clearly not me who is "not getting it". Your hatred for Bush has completely blinded you to the logical and obvious answer concerning Gitmo.
The Supreme Court has ruled on Gitmo, like in the past they are upholding the detentions so long as the prisoners have a chance to challenge their detentions. That is the whole basis of Hamdi v. Rumsfeld, where the detentions and tribunals were upheld. Not only that but they said, albeit narrowly, that the government, or in this case Boogeyman Bush was authorized by the "Authorization for Use of Military Force". You catch that Host, the Supreme Court upheld a lower courts opinion that the AUMF from 9-19-2001 gave the President authority! For the record I'm not upset, I'm merely confounded how people here cannot come to terms with this. Nor am I defending everything the administration has done in regards to Gitmo. But by and large I do not have a problem with the operation, so long as the SC's decision is followed and the men can challenge their status. |
There's nothing logical about torture, as anyone involved in psychology can verify that torture cannot produce reliable intel. There's nothing logical about holding people without trial, as it means spending money punishing people who are likely innocent (if they were guilty, they'd be able to try them). There's nothing logical about making prisoners do a human pyramid naked. surrounded by
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In Hamdi v Rumsfeld, the Court struck down the provisions of the Detainee Treatment Act's military commissions because they did not provide detainees the rights comparable to UCMJ or Genenva Conventions. The latest decision, Boumediene v. Bush, went further and struck down the provisions of the Military Commissions Act and affirmed that detainees have the right to challenge their confinement in federal courts through habeas filing. And yet all of that ignores the fact that many of the detainees (hundreds?) should never have been there in the first place.....they were not "terrorists" or even alleged terrorists, they did not attack US forces in Afghanistan or Iraq.....they got caught up in the sweep and held for 4+ years w/o any cause. I dont understand how anyone can justify that. |
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If these 'detainees' had been picked up in combat, it could easily be accepted that gitmo is the place for them, however, that did not happen with most or even all of these people. The 'right' to plead their case belongs to them to determine their status. |
I show you all their intentionally misleading statements (i.e. ..."lies")describing who they've detained at Gitmo....instead of trying to defend the statements linked to whitehouse.gov pages..for you to verify, you post, "Host, you hate Bush"..... If my opinion is challenged, I counter the points in the challenge. This is all part of the "grab more power via playing the fear card"....how many cities are we gonna lose, Newt? http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwa...6/16/gingrich/ ....it's getting old, cost us lots of lives, lots of money...in an intentional campaign of deception designed to control us....nothing to defend about....certainly not by blaming me for who you think that I hate....
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will, they decided on an "offshore prison" they said was extra territorial....outside the jurisdiction of US courts. It's purpose was as a "fear prop"....designed to be filled with what Cheney called, "bad actors"....to be held up to us in all of the linked declarations inluded in my two posts back, post.
They reasoned that their fear card would be more effectively played if they could refer to hundreds of "terrorists captured on the battlefield".....and all of their elaborate "we'll provide the fear to justify the power grab", worked great for Bush and Cheney....so well that democratic leaders Rockefeller and Hoyer were reported on sunday in Wapo to be nearing a FISA "reform" compromise that will give the white house everything it demanded....electronic surveillance with no authorization by a judge based on examination of evidence to justify it.....probable cause. Mojo's side doesn't care if the whole fear presentation is contrived, false, or intended as a power grab. They know that moving toward government by unaccountable, "decider" executive will "make us safe"....we won't lose the city Newt is worried about losing....we just lose the entire country instead, served up, to the decider, by the legislative majority.....unless this 5 to 4 supreme court split is still there, to rule against the coming power grab laws, like the FISA "reform". |
From Duke Law:
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http://www.law.duke.edu/publiclaw/su...entary/hamvrum |
So just to be clear -- I am right, and this law is a "fuck you" to the citizens of every other nation on the entire Earth?
I'm looking for help here to make a concrete, real-world decision. The election could be triggered literally any day now. I can support a party that will continue supplying about 20% of all front-line combat troops in Afghanistan, in an alliance with the USA, or I can support a party that will withdraw all military involvement in Afghanistan as soon as possible. Who will win is completely up in the air. Am I right in thinking that it is the position of the US executive, and now US Senate, that at the whim of the US president any person in the entire world can be kidnapped, moved to a secret location, held in secret, interrogated using whatever techniques the US president chooses, have no ability to contest their incarceration for 5+ years, and this is all perfectly OK, legal, official, up-and-up, every-day, hum-drum acts, as far as the USA is concerned? Because, that isn't the kind of thing I want to be in alliance with. So, someone please, tell me where my error is. Does the USA find kidnapping people, detaining them for 5+ years without any kind of real judicial review, "interrogating" them using techniques that are banned under the Geneva convention (chosen in secret), as acceptable, so long as the person in question does not hold a US citizenship? Is that the official position of your government? |
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Stevens wrote the majority opinion in Hamdan v Rumsfeld...joined by Kennedy, Suter, Ginsburg and Breyer.... Scalia, Thomas and Alito, the "evil conservatives" dissented: The Supreme Court, in a 5-to-3 decision authored by Justice John Paul Stevens, held that neither an act of Congress nor the inherent powers of the Executive laid out in the Constitution expressly authorized the sort of military commission at issue in this case. Absent that express authorization, the commission had to comply with the ordinary laws of the United States and the laws of war. The Geneva Convention, as a part of the ordinary laws of war, could therefore be enforced by the Supreme Court, along with the statutory Uniform Code of Military Justice.This was in 2006, two years after the Hamdi v Rumsfeld case to which you refer. Quote:
But the Supreme Court is the ultimate decider and the latest ruling is a "fuck you" to Bush.....but for the record Supreme Court justices never say fuck you...at least in their formal opinions. However, the larger problem still persists.....US troops can pretty grab and detain anyone that want off the streets of Baghdad or Kabul and hold them with no charges or just cause in the name of "fighting terrorism." |
Did the supreme court free the non-American citizens imprisioned on nothing but the say of the President for 5 years without access to habius corpus? Did it state that those who kept them imprisioned over those 5 years should be punished for their action?
As far as I can tell, the answer is "no" and "no". I'm sorry, kidnapping someone, "interrogating" them with arbitrary classified torture mechanisms, and holding them for 5 years with no option to contest the imprisonment in anything that isn't a kangaroo court, is already a "fuck you". If I read the ruling right, the Supreme Court simply said "the kangaroo court you produced isn't good enough. Feel free to make up a new kangaroo court, hold them, torture them as much as you want, and then come back to us in a few more years and we'll see if that new kangaroo court is enough." What the ruling doesn't say is "you have failed to uphold habeus corpus, and as such you may not legally hold these individuals any more". Or declared that individuals who held these individuals illegally are guilty of kidnapping, illegal imprisonment, etc. Or said "Given the extreme delays, you have 1 week to place these people in front of a civilian judge, and that judge has the power to release these individuals if insufficient evidence for imprisonment is presented within 2 months." Those would be a "no, this isn't right, you aren't allowed to do it, stop it". Instead, it appears like it is being treated as a minor procedural error. |
Yakk....your interpretation as a non-American is a fair and reasonable interpretation. I cant argue with it at all.
Which might explain, in part, why Bush is considered the world leader second least likely to do the right thing regarding world affairs. In a recent World Public Opinion poll of 20 nations, a majority of citizens in only two of those countries (Nigeria and India) have “a lot” or “some” confidence that President Bush will do “the right thing regarding world affairs.” Bush ranks below Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad but just edges out Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf as the world's worst leader. http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pi...n08_graph1.jpgWhich might also explain why most of Bush's "war on terrorism" has been a successful recruiting tool for terrorist. |
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This is just more evidence that the GWOT is a massive human rights disaster. In trying to "fight terrorism" we have become the antagonists to all that is moral and just. |
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